TWD 4x08 "Too Far Gone" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Neil]

Writing and characterization has really shit the bed. I suspect you might be in the minority with this opinion

[Wyldwraith]

That would've been a long shot over open sights even for Carl, What REALLY disappointed me gun-wise this last episode was Rick. Rick's been shown to be the damned GRANDMASTER of the no-stance one-handed "offhanded" shot. If he can drill Walkers in the forehead reliably at a dead run forward, I was like "WHAT!?!?" when he BARELY managed to get .357 round into the flesh of the Gov's upper arm. No, I wasn't expecting him to drill the Governor between the eyes...but would a solid hit to the side of the abdomen been too much to ask after all the Cheat Code-y behavior the Governor has gotten away with? Hitting him on the outside of the upper arm from something like 12-14 feet away just seemed so MEH. When followed up by the Governor going all Riddick on Rick's ass, it just made Rick seem ineffectual. And if this was indeed the last of the Governor, I feel Rick deserved a bigger bite of the bastard than a completely unhindering minor flesh wound. And just for emphasis, I'll say it once more: This had better have BEEN the end of the Governor, because I don't think my suspension-of-disbelief could withstand survival after lung-impalement without modern medical resources (Which also assumes the enraged chick whose just seen what's left of her family die thanks to Mr. Governor hasn't just shot him in the other eye like 99 out of 100 people here would if someone responsible for the deaths of their entire family were laid out helpless before them.) Me at least. (Hey, I was raised you avenge your blood/closest friends if you can do it AND avoid prison. Dead family members/friends that are adopted family don't want to watch you rot in jail for 50yrs from the afterlife after all.)

[sandrock74]

The Governor is dead. He was included on the In Memorium section on the Talking Dead. He's dead and gone.

[Moon Knight]

He's gone. Show and comic spoiler.   Kirkman confirms that Negan is being written in and will kill a major character. Not in S4 cause they want to have a break between The Governor and Negan.

[Darkest Hour]

Nitpicker central phoning home /sarc Tip o' the hat to 1)Slowest reload EVAH .gov behind the bus 2) Dumbest move by Rick to date he had his gun and wanted to get into a fist fight with .gov? Crap he shot him before when he chopped Hersh's head off.He is good&quick with guns,remember those 2 guys he killed in the bar Hersh went to?Why not just plug the sumbitch with some .357 or .38 super whatever ammo he has in that machine? DH

[Wyldwraith]

See that's what I was thinking, It was patently obvious even from Rick/Team Prison's perspective that the Gov's "New Army" was a very new, very untested thing. Rick is a cop, and his training would make him aware that eliminating the controlling alpha personality, ESPECIALLY in a violently abrupt way, will VERY OFTEN utterly demoralize and shatter the will of the followers to resist. Decapitating Herschel would, (and this isn't one of those armchair quarterback, easy-to-make cuz I'm not the one in danger-type calls) for me at least have been the catalyst to take my best shot. I'm no cop, certainly no soldier...so not saying I would have SUCCEEDED, but I WOULD have taken one shot while still stationary, and perhaps another as I dove/scrambled for cover...in the hopes of doing what I just described above. Other than the tank-crew, Martinez and a couple others, the rest of the Governor's new followers had Scared Civilian written on their foreheads. If my choices have been narrowed to a) Total capitulation to a sadistic sociopath, whom I KNOW is a sadistic sociopath, b) Beating feet for cover and trying to take the Governor's squad in a pitched battle, or c) Taking a close-range series of shots at the architect of the continuing threat to my safety, and the safety of those I care about/who've placed their trust in me to act in their best interests on their behalf...I go with Choice C, even though it's the choice that exposes me to the greatest personal danger. You can't win big unless you're willing to risk losing big. No, I don't think that killing the Governor would've ended the conflict before it began. That said, killing him MIGHT have divided the invaders between those who want to risk trusting Team Prison/stop fighting, and those already firmly committed to the "Taking the Prison by force is the only viable way forward" mentality. And no, I don't believe killing the Governor would've just touched off an immediate all-or-nothing battle. Especially if it had been done moments after Herschel was killed. Could it have done so? Sure. Yet I believe the Gov's followers could've related to the notion that striking down the Gov wasn't a prelude to war, and was instead simple retaliation for the execution of an old man which they'd just witnessed. Don't get me wrong, I understand that the story had to serve the larger purpose of moving the characters and thus the story beyond the Prison...I just wish that story-fiats could more often and more consistently depict the usage of character skillsets at the level of competency we've become familiar with said characters displaying. Like Rick being EXTREMELY GOOD at one-handed "instinctive" shooting in situations of extreme pressure. For the umpteenth time: While it may be the easiest/most expedient method to move a story along, it CAN be done without making the characters suddenly turn stupid and having them become equally ineffectual. Daryl's performance was an excellent example of this, (though in a way Daryl sometimes goes too far in the opposite direction of being Action Hero hyper-competent). Regardless of his personal victories, it didn't alter the overall direction events were taking. Story fiat should be cloaked in circumstances and events too big, or too complex to directly confront. Rather than consistently hiding them in sudden inexplicable failures of various characters. Occasionally it would be fine, but if the show has any ongoing flaws it's this conviction on the part of the writers that it's better to use inexplicable character failures than to shape circumstances in such a way that even an intelligently realistic response on the part of the characters' still results in the necessity of the characters taking X action(s). Example: Regardless of how the fight with the Governor and his people went, once that tank rolled through the fencelines, the horde of Walkers being drawn to the immediate area by the intense exchanges of gunfire and resounding explosions would've necessitated the same evacuation that Team Prison ended up enacting. Rick getting beaten down like a 17yr old trying to stand up to a full-grown man didn't enhance anything. In fact: Given the context of events leading up to that fight, it just felt like nothing more than the Governor activating his Melee Combat Invincibility cheat code. All to set things up so Michonne could save Rick's ass while getting her revenge. Here's an equally viable action sequence: The Governor momentarily gains the upper hand in their fight, knocking Rick to the ground. Pouncing forward, intending to come down on Rick's midsection as he lands atop him to keep beating on Rick, the Governor is caught off guard when, at the last moment Rick draws his legs up, plants them in the leaping Governor's abdomen and extends, sending the Governor careening backwards and off-balance, until as his momentum plays out the overbalanced Governor topples over backward. Quickly scrambling to his knees and getting one foot under himself as he prepares to rise and rush back toward Rick to continue the fight, the Governor gasps hoarsely in shock as Michonne's katana emerges from his chest. Same outcome, a greatly similar action sequence, just one or two differing details that make absolutely no difference to anything other than turning the Governor's fall from something to be described as "Michonne saves Rick's ass at the 11th hour" to "Michonne strikes without hesitation, taking her revenge during a moment of inattention on the part of a too-fixated Governor." Making Villains into monoliths of Badassery up until their sudden demise doesn't make them better. It just makes them tend towards becoming cliched. The Governor was already a compelling villain/antagonist with great depth and mixes of white and gray in with the majority blackness of his soul...Jason Vorhees-like stealth-grabs, Slasher Flick Villain Situational Invincibility and atmosphere-eroding montages of just how physically easy and unthreatening the zombie apocalypse is for him personally, far from enhancing his villainous stature are the surprising blemishes (and not in a good way) of an otherwise great antagonist. TWD has been rolling along for 3 & 1/2 Seasons now. They've had a great deal of time to experiment, and seek/receive feedback from trustworthy sources on where they knock it out of the park and where they can still improve things. I'd just like to see more evidence of an awareness that things aren't just "good enough" is all. "Good enough" is the terminal illness of Greatness.

[MinionZombie]

I just finished up a marathon re-watch session of the first eight episodes, and man, 4x08 is still gripping even though I know exactly what happens. Once the shit hits the fan, it just flies off the handle and remains in high orbit. As for Rick versus The Governor which seems to have been quibbled with a couple of times in the last few weeks - Rick gets some good punches in there, and they're fairly evenly matched (both have sustained gunshot wounds too - TG in his arm, Rick in his leg), but once TG headbutts Rick and gets on top of him, that's when TG dominates Rick, who isn't a brawler, he's not some ultimate fighter or someone with special training - Rick's on his back, TG has the upper hand, and just keeps dishing out punishing blows to the head ... that's something you can't really fight back against unless you know some special bit of training in certain forms of fighting or whatever, so I have no problems with how the fight went down. Rick, Michonne, and Lilly all had to be involved in the take-down of The Governor for their respective reasons. If any one of them (or two of them) had been left out entirely, people would have been short-changed. To an extent you have to engineer events to hit certain marks - must-have moments. In terms of Rick's speech in front of a small army threatening his entire family and sancutary, it's incredibly easy to come up with the exact right thing to say from a sedentary position after three weeks of thought ... it's an entirely different thing to say the perfect thing when you're thrown into a life-or-death situation (not just for you, but your family and friends and safe haven). Think about it - how many times have you been in an argument, or on an important phone call, and tried to resolve a situation and failed, and then only thought of the perfect thing to have said once it's too late. Yes, he could have gone a little harder on some truths about The Governor - but what's to say TG's new army would have believed what Rick was saying? A stranger over someone they've known for (presumably) several weeks (the time frame of 4x06 and 4x07 is hard to determine) who is their leader? A man who is well known to be in a relationship with Lilly and acting as a respected and loved surrogate father? As far as they're concerned, and from their perspective, anything Rick might say about anything could easily be a lie. Not so easy for Rick necessarily, and again, my above points about thinking of the perfect thing to say too late (and the clarity and comfort of hindsight), as well as having to engineer events in the script just enough to give the audience what they want (and deserve), especially after the 3x16 war that never was got some people rather pissed off (personally, I didn't mind, but it was wrong to lead viewers to expect a conclusive war and then only deliver a skirmish). In 4x08 we got the war we wanted and the war we deserved, and the war that spurs events on in the direction they need to go. It's been really nice to re-watch these past eight episodes over a couple of days, and cool to review certain scenes with the knowledge that it was Carol who killed Karen and David. Some of the things she says (before Rick's question is answered at the end of 4x03) take on an entirely different light once you know she's the perpetrator.

[Darkest Hour]

How convenient MZ you avoided the question of why SUPER RICK did not plug .gov as he came around the back of the grey bus when he had the Colt Python (TM) holstered and loaded and ready. Right where and when .gov was doing his slo-motion reload. Chopping off Hersh's head deserved more than a punch. AMC Apologist! DH

[facestabber]

^^ I'll give ya two. Gun shot could have easily drawn the attention of the G's advancing army. And secondly you are underestimating the personalness of slamming your fist in another mans face. A gun is very impersonal. A standoff weapon. Beating a man to death is the ultimate personal message to send to the Gov. Now if your gonna start that fight you better finish it. I hated to see Rick almost dead at the hands of the Gov. If only Rick would have come through my training camp. To Wylde I liked what you wrote. This standoff does force us to suspend disbelief. As many guns as the gov had around him(even the inept scared ones) would have been trigger read to light Rick up as soon as he drew. I understand the Gov's people may have some shock due to the Gov's katana swing but they were there for a fight. I just accept the disbelief in this scene and move on. Simple truth is Rick didn't have a real chance to escape to the bus.

[Wyldwraith]

Eh, For me, even after all this time it's still about the shot Rick DID take. If you're going to hesitate in going for cover, long enough to snap off a semi-accurate shot at someone you hate and recognize to be the guiding intelligence of the army at your gates...you try to make it count. Now, had Rick taken that shot DURING his leap for cover I would've been totally fine. Yet this is the guy who sprinted madly through downtown Zombietropolis forehead-drilling anything that looked at him funny without breaking stride. All I'm saying is that even a TINY modification to that scene could have made the results much more believable. Rick's been depicted as deadly off-the-draw, and even deadlier with the snap-shot while on the move. One can try to say he was under pressure and that adversely affected his performance, but when has he NOT been under life-or-death pressure? And again, I wasn't advocating that Rick put a bullet between the Gov's eyes. Just a nice meaty, non-critical side of the abdomen wound. My biggest problem with the upper-arm hit is that it feels like an "Almost Miss."

[facestabber]

Eh, For me, even after all this time it's still about the shot Rick DID take. If you're going to hesitate in going for cover, long enough to snap off a semi-accurate shot at someone you hate and recognize to be the guiding intelligence of the army at your gates...you try to make it count. Now, had Rick taken that shot DURING his leap for cover I would've been totally fine. Yet this is the guy who sprinted madly through downtown Zombietropolis forehead-drilling anything that looked at him funny without breaking stride. All I'm saying is that even a TINY modification to that scene could have made the results much more believable. Rick's been depicted as deadly off-the-draw, and even deadlier with the snap-shot while on the move. One can try to say he was under pressure and that adversely affected his performance, but when has he NOT been under life-or-death pressure? And again, I wasn't advocating that Rick put a bullet between the Gov's eyes. Just a nice meaty, non-critical side of the abdomen wound. My biggest problem with the upper-arm hit is that it feels like an "Almost Miss." I get what youre saying. Rick's accuracy under pressure has been shown to be beyond a master. His shooting hasnt simply been proficient up to date. Running and gunning headshots, one handed, are beyond difficult. And the scene in the bar established a Western style quick draw with accurate results. Winging the Gov is obviously another moment the writers ask us to suspend disbelief. I accept most. Some are absurd to me(gun handling) but others have no problem with. I accept this one knowing that the Gov's fate was destined to be way more personal than a single gun shot. Wylde, I know your not advocating a bullet to the Gov's brain. Actually I would go on to say that the Rick I believe in would actually stand his ground until the fatal blow was done to the Gov. Rick admires and respects Hershel and I think would have accepted being gunned down as a necessary to not only avenge Hershel but to end the evil that the Gov is.

[Wyldwraith]

That's an excellent point I hadn't considered Facestabber, You're right. I could DEFINITELY see Rick thinking "This evil sonuvabitch just EXECUTED HERSCHEL, IN FRONT OF HIS KIDS!!! That's it. No more...I don't care what it costs me, I'm ending this. I won't see any more people I care about, any more people who've put their trust in me die because this psychotic bastard continues to draw breath. There's no way his people can kill me before I kill him..." ::Takes a deep breath, says a silent goodbye to Carl & Judith, draws and begins unloading on the Governor as he advances.:: Ok, my "thought-process dialog" is more wordy than Rick's would be, but I think it accurately encapsulates the motives and reasoning you insightfully pointed out. Plus, there's killing the Governor..and then there's Terminator-on-a-mission-style ventilating him. People who might not be shaken by a guy taking a quick accurate shot that kills the Gov, and then dives for cover would be shitting their pants watching someone methodically advance in a calm, methodical manner, shooting the same way, until they physically cannot continue any further due to the hail of responding gunfire. That would terrify me. Seeing in someone's eyes they've made their peace with God and expect to die in the next few seconds, but not before they take their target down with them. It's terrifying for the same reason kamikazes scared the shit out of hardened sailors and Marines...and for the same reason Walkers are frightening. Their singleminded relentless pursuit of their goal until the moment they're destroyed. Finally, what Rick couldn't convince those people of with words he could have persuaded them to believe by turning himself into a blood sacrifice to end the Governor. Greedy, monolithically evil people don't selflessly sacrifice themselves ending the primary threat to the safety/survival of the people they're representing. Of course it goes without saying why it didn't/couldn't play out that way, but yea...your point just gets more valid the more I think about it. Good call.

[MinionZombie]

I don't think Rick would sacrifice himself in revenge for Hershel's death. He's got Carl and Judith - his own children - to care for and protect. That's more important than taking the shot right there, and besides, he already knows TG isn't going to run away now that he's stood there on top of a tank with a little army of his own. The fight's on right now, so why waste your own life in a hasty moment of vengeance, which would leave your children orphaned and unprotected by you, when it's much more sensible to run for cover and let the fight unfold as it may?

[AcesandEights]

Uneven and unbelievable marksmanship has always been a highly contrived writing method in this series (as in many with lots of gun play and protagonists that need to be kept relatively safe). The manner in which people pull off head shots is a bit ridiculous in the series (relatively par for the zombie course, however), though this is mainly done--I would think--due to a desire to both show action, yet not slow everything down. I also wonder if gunplay is less arduous from either filming and/or a monetary standpoint....but I don't know. Thoughts?

[Buzzbomb]

Could it be argued that Rick was a just a bit rusty - not having used a gun for a while? I kind of accept the inconsistent gun skills as the kind of timescales/budget they have to work on a particular episode. It's just one of the things about TWD that could be improved - still for me an excellent series though. Also - one thing that's bugged me about this episode is how the tank and half a dozen cars drive up to the prison without either the prison group or the dead hearing them?