TWD 5x01 "No Sanctuary" episode discussion (Season 5 Premiere)... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[Wyldwraith]

Thanks Andy Always nice to feel like one's efforts are appreciated. This particular moral issue is one near and dear to my heart. In my own life I've had to do absolutely reprehensible things to protect one or more people I care(d) about, when the system failed to do so. Some of those things keep me up nights at times, but to this day I continue to feel justified in taking those actions. To give you one example: What do you do when an individual has TWICE attempted to sexually assault a close friend, and said would-be rapist/stalker was the son of the County's Sheriff at that time? I tried to go over said Sheriff's head by contacting the city PD with proof of his collusion in concealing the crimes of his son...but somehow it was still all swept under the rug...and I was left with the roughly delivered message that if I kept making waves I wouldn't enjoy the consequences. Is an evil act carried out for the best of reasons ever moral per se? Maybe not, but even in our non-apocalyptic real world there are extreme situations...circumstances where either the system completely fails, or an offender simply has the clout to circumvent said system where you're left with a choice. Concede defeat and allow the offender to run wild, regardless of consequences...or fight fire with fire. I know that many people simply aren't wired to be able to cross that moral Rubicon, but the fact remains there ARE times it needs to be crossed to protect the innocent. Maybe it's an unconscious residue of my past, but I find moral ambiguities like the ones currently being explored in TWD endlessly fascinating.

[kidgloves]

Wyld, I genuinely mean this.. I look forward to your posts just as much as the episodes themselves. Always a pleasure to read! Dont leave What? +1

[Wyldwraith]

So here's the question: If you're Rick or a member of his group, having just been subjected to coming within a split-hair of being literally butchered for meat...do you let it go and try to get on with the business of surviving, trusting that the Terminus survivors have too much on their hands to concern themselves with retribution....or do you do as Rick recommended, and try to finish off the survivors so a) You don't have to look over your shoulder wondering if one day a smirking Gareth is going to be behind you, and b) So the Terminus monsters can't do this to anyone else ever again? For me, I go with the middle course. Sneak back to the Terminus perimeter and do some more of what Carol did. Ie: Pick off any Terminus people who expose themselves, and then fade into the forest when either Walker attention or Terminus people's counterattack gets to be too hazardous. As far as I'm concerned, a) ALL the Terminus people are as I've stated before afflicted with a terminal moral decay, and b) Every one you pick off is one less to join Gareth's posse if and/or when he comes looking for payback. Look at it like this: Rick killed ONE MEMBER of the group Daryl joined, and that group doggedly pursued him and his until they caught up with Rick and Co. Had Fortune failed to smile, that confrontation could well have been the end of Rick and Daryl, at the very least. Carol ripped to shreds the meticulously constructed ambush assembly-line Gareth and his cronies had created. It's not as if Gareth is going to say to himself "Well, we had it coming, so I can't blame them for tearing us up." No, in his and the rest of the Terminians minds' they were completely justified in what they'd done and intended continuing to do. That being the case, Gareth and his ilk are going to consider Rick & Co. the villains who destroyed their way of life. I just don't see how Gareth and the surviving Terminians would fail to try and seek revenge. A reality only compounded if they lose Terminus for good the way Rick & Co lost the Prison. In that eventuality what would Gareth and his cronies have left beside retribution? For me, the point is this: Is it POSSIBLE Gareth and the other Terminus survivors will choose not to try to pursue Rick & Co? Absolutely, but that's not the point. The point is that it's JUST AS PROBABLE that they WILL seek revenge. Given this fact, the question becomes: "Are you willing to move on, knowing remorseless cannibals devoid of the slightest shred of humanity MIGHT be on your trail?" Given all the other dangers the survivors have to negotiate daily, as far as I'm concerned Rick & Co. can't AFFORD to add Possibility of pursuit by enraged murderous cannibals to the list of dangers they have to face. Right now they know roughly where the Terminus people are. That won't remain true for long, especially if the Terminus survivors were already forced to abandon Terminus the way Rick & Co. had to abandon the Prison when it fell. Dealing with the omnipresent hazard of the Walkers is more than enough to contend with, but they also have to be on guard versus any other psychopaths like the ones Daryl hooked up with. If it was me I'd rather at least thin the herd of vengeful sociopaths before I moved on, because I couldn't justify leaving such a motivated enemy group at my back and the backs' of my family. What do the rest of you think? Does the risk of returning to the Terminus perimeter to try and pick off anyone in the open outweigh the danger of leaving Gareth and a significant # of his cronies out there somewhere, plotting the Devil only knows what as payback? Notice that it's not as if I'm advocating storming back into a Walker-filled Terminus to try and wipe them out. I just happen to agree with Rick in this case. If they got extremely lucky and managed to snipe Gareth, that would probably end the threat of revenge-motivated pursuit...or if they reduced the # of surviving henchmen below a certain critical density Gareth might well be too much of a coward to try and come after them. I see Gareth like the Governor in one respect: The danger he represents is what he can get the people under his influence to do. Take away those minions and I believe Gareth would unravel just like the Governor did until he chanced upon a new "flock." I can see valid arguments for multiple courses of action, don't get me wrong. I'm just going by imagining myself in Rick's place and what my gut tells me. My perspective certainly isn't the only valid one, it's just the course I perceive as mitigating the most threat for the least risk. Comments?

[AcesandEights]

Good question, Wyld. I think a lot of what people would do depends on the available supplies and the state of the folks on hand. They don't have a base of operations for people to sortie out of or reconvene at, so splitting the group back up is probably a bad idea and they have a baby...so unecessary travel that is not to find secure transportation or a safe(ish) base of operations is probably a bad idea. Wyld, I genuinely mean this.. I look forward to your posts just as much as the episodes themselves. Always a pleasure to read! Dont leave

[Legion2213]

Wyld, the current problem for the group in regards to trying to take revenge (or survival measures) against the terminus goons is that they are down to bare bones again with regards to weapons and ammo. No real choice but to move on for my money, I understand Ricks initial (and justifiable) desire to finish them, but they simply don't have the tools right now. If they had bins full of guns n ammo like they did back at the prison, (plus greater manpower and walls to fall back behind) I could've see Rick really pushing to finish the job that day...but he just seemed to accept that they couldn't do that there and then.

[AcesandEights]

Wyld, the current problem for the group in regards to trying to take revenge (or survival measures) against the terminus goons is that they are down to bare bones again with regards to weapons and ammo. Also, there will be a desire to find Beth, and I figure they'd want to get on with that...though I don't think there's any way they can rule out her not having been at Terminus short of interrogating a Termian (Termite? Terminian? Terminusian?).

[Legion2213]

Also, there will be a desire to find Beth, and I figure they'd want to get on with that...though I don't think there's any way they can rule out her not having been at Terminus short of interrogating a Termian (Termite? Terminian? Terminusian?). Gotta be "termites" Wouldn't say no to a little nibble on Beth myself to be honest... I expect she'll turn up eventually...and it will give us another group of bad guys for our heroes to mess up!

[MinionZombie]

Aye, good question Wyld. I agree with Rick - the Termites need to be snuffed out - they've gone fully overboard and are only a threat in this world (to Rick & Co, and to anyone generally). However, they're in an iffy position ... their best chance was to snuff them out there and then, but they were scattered all over the place with little ammo and few weapons, and a herd was storming the Terminus compound, so you'd just as easily lose one or more of your own group while trying to track down the Termites in a totally unfamiliar setting. They have no base of operations, they need food, shelter, weapons and ammo (and transport), and they need to stick together. You're right though - Gareth & Co are just as likely or unlikely to hunt them down, but I'd bet more on them hunting them down. Comics Spoiler/Theory for Future Episodes:   Could remaining members of Terminus become the ragtag band of Hunters as-seen in the comics? When Morgan follows those carved circles with "X"'s in them that seems to be some time later, and Gimple has mentioned several times that they'll be 'playing with time' in this season. The hairy bearded guy in the container, who was a captured former hostile who temporarily took over Terminus and subjected the women to all kinds of awfulness, had tattoos etched on his face, one of which was a "X" inside a circle. Is there a link? Or will Gareth try and resurrect himself despite his heinous deeds after the fall of Terminus? Had Team Rick been in a healthier position then absolutely - snuff those bastards out straight away - but it wasn't practical at that moment. In order to save everyone in the short term from the herd - and get them back on their feet to an extent - they've been forced to risk losing the remaining Termites, or crossing paths with them again in the future.

[Legion2213]

Aye, good question Wyld. I agree with Rick - the Termites need to be snuffed out - they've gone fully overboard and are only a threat in this world (to Rick & Co, and to anyone generally). However, they're in an iffy position ... their best chance was to snuff them out there and then, but they were scattered all over the place with little ammo and few weapons, and a herd was storming the Terminus compound, so you'd just as easily lose one or more of your own group while trying to track down the Termites in a totally unfamiliar setting. They have no base of operations, they need food, shelter, weapons and ammo (and transport), and they need to stick together. You're right though - Gareth & Co are just as likely or unlikely to hunt them down, but I'd bet more on them hunting them down. Comics Spoiler/Theory for Future Episodes:   Could remaining members of Terminus become the ragtag band of Hunters as-seen in the comics? When Morgan follows those carved circles with "X"'s in them that seems to be some time later, and Gimple has mentioned several times that they'll be 'playing with time' in this season. The hairy bearded guy in the container, who was a captured former hostile who temporarily took over Terminus and subjected the women to all kinds of awfulness, had tattoos etched on his face, one of which was a "X" inside a circle. Is there a link? Or will Gareth try and resurrect himself despite his heinous deeds after the fall of Terminus? Had Team Rick been in a healthier position then absolutely - snuff those bastards out straight away - but it wasn't practical at that moment. In order to save everyone in the short term from the herd - and get them back on their feet to an extent - they've been forced to risk losing the remaining Termites, or crossing paths with them again in the future. Good point...humanity is on the run here, and these guys have probably butchered hundreds of survivors since they set up their little warped little community...at least people had an excuse in things like "the Road" when the only food around was longpig

[shootemindehead]

FFS!

[MoonSylver]

Aye, good question Wyld. I agree with Rick - the Termites need to be snuffed out - they've gone fully overboard and are only a threat in this world (to Rick & Co, and to anyone generally). However, they're in an iffy position ... their best chance was to snuff them out there and then, but they were scattered all over the place with little ammo and few weapons, and a herd was storming the Terminus compound, so you'd just as easily lose one or more of your own group while trying to track down the Termites in a totally unfamiliar setting. They have no base of operations, they need food, shelter, weapons and ammo (and transport), and they need to stick together. You're right though - Gareth & Co are just as likely or unlikely to hunt them down, but I'd bet more on them hunting them down. Comics Spoiler/Theory for Future Episodes:   Could remaining members of Terminus become the ragtag band of Hunters as-seen in the comics? When Morgan follows those carved circles with "X"'s in them that seems to be some time later, and Gimple has mentioned several times that they'll be 'playing with time' in this season. The hairy bearded guy in the container, who was a captured former hostile who temporarily took over Terminus and subjected the women to all kinds of awfulness, had tattoos etched on his face, one of which was a "X" inside a circle. Is there a link? Or will Gareth try and resurrect himself despite his heinous deeds after the fall of Terminus? Had Team Rick been in a healthier position then absolutely - snuff those bastards out straight away - but it wasn't practical at that moment. In order to save everyone in the short term from the herd - and get them back on their feet to an extent - they've been forced to risk losing the remaining Termites, or crossing paths with them again in the future. Pick them off, wait for the herd to move on, then replenish your stores of ammo with their's? Odds are they got a good bit stockpiled... As for da future   I could see the remaining Termites becoming the group from the comics. I could also see "Beard-o X" being one of Negan's gang, & the X's marking their territory?

[rongravy]

Two things stonily crossed my mind reading through this page of threadnificence... One: I got the impression Rick gave up all thoughts of revenge once he saw his baby girl alive again, and that it was time to get as far away from that clusterfudge as quickly as possible. He even said something to that extent, or did I imagine this? Two: When Carol blew up that gas thangie, wouldn't the ginormous explosion it made bring every walker from here to kingdom come? I know there was already a herd that hit them before she actually blew it up, but the noise from that would bring even more, surely... I mean, geez. Those ones followed Rick all the way from practically the beginning to the shot that took Walker Shane down. This time they did more than just ring the dinner bell, they blew it the heck up. Just thoughts...

[AcesandEights]

Pick them off, wait for the herd to move on, then replenish your stores of ammo with their's? Odds are they got a good bit stockpiled... That's a damned good point, Moon. Of course, a new problem that popped into my head about dealing with the Termians now is I don't think anyone has relevant numbers for the Termians; how many there were or still remain...so who knows what they'd have to deal with if they went after them? Anyone recall if the numbers at Terminus ever hinted at towards the end of last season or this last episode?

[sandrock74]

It wasn't practical for Rick and the gang to chase the Termites around, trying to pick them off thru a herd of walkers. Everyone already stated the various reasons why. Could any Terminus survivors come hunting after our heroes at some future date? It's possible, but they weren't trackers. They were luring people to them; I don't think it's very likely they could fight thru the zombies, escape and hunt after Rick and the gang thru the wilderness. Besides that, I would assume that Daryl or Abraham would probably think to do something to cover their tracks for a bit to throw off any potential followers.

[MoonSylver]

@ Ron: Yeah, once he saw Judith he had other things on his mind than revenge. Good point about more incoming. @Aces: No idea on numbers. @Sand: Just stand at the fence & pick them off. No need to follow them about. It would be difficult & impractical. Perhaps even un-doable really, but figured it was worth throwing out there anyway. As noted though, really the lot of them just wanted to get out of there & as far away as possible most likely, after everything they'd been through.