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Thread: Feminism and the Likes

  1. #16
    Twitching krisvds's Avatar
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    Most schools I know of are actively searching for male teachers. To the point they are positively discriminating male candidates who apply for a job.
    And yes, that has a lot to do with lower wages and the general stereotype that 'teaching is for women' or 'you can't be ambitious and promote your way to the top in a school'.
    I saw many of my colleagues (both male and female) leave their teaching jobs for higher salaries in the private sector. Their main motivation though was the often Kafka-like administrative work we have to do coupled with continuously dwindling financial investments in our sector. Teaching to, sometimes over thirty young teenagers per class is rapidly becoming the norm in Belgium.
    Last edited by krisvds; 24-Oct-2014 at 09:06 AM. Reason: .

  2. #17
    Chasing Prey shootemindehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    You're confusing fact with opinion regarding sports. Your opinion on the matter is that male sports is better, and this deserves to be highlighted. The truth is more likely the opposite:
    You obviously haven't watched much women's football. It simply isn't better in any area. That is a fact, not merely opinion.

    Besides, we're getting well off the point here. My original point was that sports is "male dominated" (your words) is because males are the primary user, viewer and purchaser of sports related products. You cannot get away from that.

    A lot of the women just aren't interested, out of THEIR OWN DECISION. There is NOTHING stopping women from being either involved or from watching any sport. They have to have the interest first and I've met plenty of women who have and do watch football, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Male sports are highlighted to the extreme and therefore more money goes into it, and therefore you perceive it as better. This is the society you live in, wether you like it or not. As I've already pointed out, male skillness is valued. Female beauty is valued.
    Male sports are highlighted because, in general, it's males that are interested in sports, therefore that is where the money is going to go, whether YOU like it or not.

    I don't disagree that society (which is made up of BOTH men and women) places different values on the sexes. But that goes both ways. Both sexes place different expectations upon either one. But, again, there is absolutely bugger all stopping women for watching or being interested in sport. Nothing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Also, even British society encourages women to be beautiful and men to be skillfull. Or do women in britain not wear makeup?
    You missed the point spectacularly. Your scholarship example applies to American society. They just don't apply elsewhere. That's An American societal issue. Nobody in my country or elsewhere in Europe (as far as I'm aware) ever got to college for winning a beauty pageant. Also, I've mentioned nothing about makeup, that doesn't even apply to my points.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    What you're saying about how male sports are better than female and then calling it a fact is such a red sexist alarm bell going off and proves so many of my points.
    It doesn't prove shit, because you haven't understood what I have said.

    I said male sports is the superior product, because males are simple more interested in sports, in general. If the interest isn't there, it's not going to be that widespread is it.

    It's that simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Had female sports been given the same room, money and coverage as male sports you would find no difference between them.
    You see, tennis proves you wrong here. Women's tennis has been around for years, almost as long as the men's game. But the men's game still carries the women's game financially because that is where the interest lay and people (mostly males) pay the lions share to watch it, because their interest is greater.

    There has been PLENTY of money pumped into women's tennis over the years, but still it has to be propped up by revenue from the male game.

    I like women's tennis. I prefer the speed at which it's played at, TBPH. But that won't eliminate the fact that it's in the men's game where the most interest lies, because in general it's men who are interested in sports.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Also, teaching and nursing are generally female dominated fields of work. They are generally lower paid fields of work. Connect the dots.
    That doesn't exclude my point about it being harder for males to get into, in my country at least.
    Last edited by shootemindehead; 24-Oct-2014 at 09:12 AM. Reason: .
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  3. #18
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    You obviously haven't watched much women's football. It simply isn't better in any area. That is a fact, not merely opinion.

    Besides, we're getting well off the point here. My original point was that sports is "male dominated" (your words) is because males are the primary user, viewer and purchaser of sports related products. You cannot get away from that.

    A lot of the women just aren't interested, out of THEIR OWN DECISION. There is NOTHING stopping women from being either involved or from watching any sport. They have to have the interest first and I've met plenty of women who have and do watch football, for example.
    You may repeat this point as many times as you want, but I cannot argue with someone who confuses fact with opinion. You need to learn the difference if this conversation is to continue. I also adressed the inherent sexism to sports in my last posts and why we breed male to get interested in skill orientated things and women are praised and valued for their beauty. Sports is an extreme example, where the male field is heavily highlighted and the female is downplayed. It's easy to see why, and I already explained why: A hundred years ago males were playing sports and women were not. We've still got one foot stuck in that mud pit of sexism.

    Your opinion of the matter may be that male sports is better, but that does not make it a fact. In fact, it's quite ridiculous to state anything else. Anyway, we've exhausted the point and I can tell that you're a pretty sexist fellah all around so I'm not going to indulge you further. Rest assured that there is a difference between fact and opinion and you've clearly demonstrated that you either do not know the difference or refuse to acknowledge it.

    A fact is something that's proven by scientific method, such as

    A football is of spherical shape and made of leather.

    The above is a fact.

    An opinion is something like this:

    I find male football to be superior to female football.

    Learn the difference, and we can talk.


    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    You missed the point spectacularly. Your scholarship example applies to American society. They just don't apply elsewhere. That's An American societal issue. Nobody in my country or elsewhere in Europe (as far as I'm aware) ever got to college for winning a beauty pageant. Also, I've mentioned nothing about makeup, that doesn't even apply to my points.
    Okay, another example. Acting. Most male actors are praised for their acting skill, whereas most female actors are praised for their beauty. I raised this in the first post as well. I can go on and on if you wish, there's plenty more examples out there. Makeup is just an example of women having to make themselves "Pretty to look at" before going to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    It doesn't prove shit, because you haven't understood what I have said.

    I said male sports is the superior product, because males are simple more interested in sports, in general. If the interest isn't there, it's not going to be that widespread is it.

    It's that simple.
    I've explained to you the underlying history and reasons for why male sports is held in higher regard, so no it just isn't "that simple".


    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    You see, tennis proves you wrong here. Women's tennis has been around for years, almost as long as the men's game. But the men's game still carries the women's game financially because that is where the interest lay and people (mostly males) pay the lions share to watch it, because their interest is greater.
    And again, I've explained why sports are male dominated. But heck, why not look at another point here...

    Roger Federer, arguably the best male tennis player ever... Net worth of 300 million.
    Steffi Graf, arguably the best female tennis player ever. Net worth of 30 million.

    Huh, look at that. Not even in tennis is the pay equal. Who would have thought.



    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    That doesn't exclude my point about it being harder for males to get into, in my country at least.
    I fail to see the point you're trying to make here.

    "I worked in a factory owned by Germans, at coal pits owned by Frenchmen, and at a chemical plant owned by Belgians. There I discovered something about capitalists. They are all alike, whatever the nationality. All they wanted from me was the most work for the least money that kept me alive. So I became a Communist." - Ники́та Серге́евич Хрущёв

    "Thanks for Playa Girón. Before the invasion, the revolution was weak. Now it's stronger than ever". - Che Guevara

  4. #19
    Chasing Prey shootemindehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    ...if this conversation is to continue.
    This conversation isn't going to continue. Because you don't understand the issues I'm raising.

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Roger Federer, arguably the best male tennis player ever... Net worth of 300 million.
    Steffi Graf, arguably the best female tennis player ever. Net worth of 30 million.
    The above is a perfect example.

    Steffi Graf retired 15 years ago. Roger Federer is still playing at a professional level. The pair pf them don't even belong in the point.
    Last edited by shootemindehead; 24-Oct-2014 at 02:04 PM. Reason: .
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  5. #20
    Walking Dead blind2d's Avatar
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    If Ned doesn't understand, then you must not be explaining your position very well.

    You said that one kind of sport is better than another. How can you possibly justify this statement? What are your qualifications for how 'good' a sport is? Your personal enjoyment of it? That's an opinion. How much money it makes? That's a shallow economic reflection. How popular it is in the general public? That's due largely to media and humans being socially primitive (sheep mentality). So, very silly sentence there, sorry. And can we stop talking tennis? It's the 21st century. Who cares?
    "Because they still believe there's respect in dying." - Ken Foree, Dawn of the Dead
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  6. #21
    Chasing Prey shootemindehead's Avatar
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    No, I'm not really interested in where it's going, to be honest Blind and I think I've been very clear thus far.

    I've already been, effectively, called a "sexist" and had an inference of "racism" too and that's not really what I'm here for.

    It's obviously a touchy subject for Ned and that's fair enough, but if one can't or won't understand the points that somebody is making and consigns them to simply "your opinion", then there's not really much to talk about and having followed both football and tennis for more years than I like, I think I know what I am talking about in that regard in terms of the quality of the product.

    That's not to say that I think men are the "better" sex, or whatever.

    While I think that Feminism has won its major battles (at least in the west), there are still areas of imporovement needed, but that goes for both sexes, frankly (men experience sexism too, try family law for example). It certainly isn't a one way street.
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  7. #22
    Twitching krisvds's Avatar
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  8. #23
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    1) your opinion of a matter, regardless of your experience in said field, is still an opinion. You've been adamant that male football is superior to female football. Since you failed to present any scientific facts to back that statement up, it cannot be tested or argued with. It's simply a claim and nothing more.

    2) sexism riles me up. Does not racism rile you up?

    3) lets take an irish example of lacking in women's rights... Abortion. It's illegal. Or women in the parliament. Out of 166 seats, 25 are occupied by women. Doesnt strike me as very equal or even close to it.

    Sexism not being a one-way street? That's such an absurd comment when comparing the sexes. Maybe it isn't but there's fifty lanes going one way and one lane going the other, so why even bother raising the point?

    "I worked in a factory owned by Germans, at coal pits owned by Frenchmen, and at a chemical plant owned by Belgians. There I discovered something about capitalists. They are all alike, whatever the nationality. All they wanted from me was the most work for the least money that kept me alive. So I became a Communist." - Ники́та Серге́евич Хрущёв

    "Thanks for Playa Girón. Before the invasion, the revolution was weak. Now it's stronger than ever". - Che Guevara

  9. #24
    Walking Dead blind2d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    1) your opinion of a matter, regardless of your experience in said field, is still an opinion. You've been adamant that male football is superior to female football. Since you failed to present any scientific facts to back that statement up, it cannot be tested or argued with. It's simply a claim and nothing more.

    2) sexism riles me up. Does not racism rile you up?

    3) lets take an irish example of lacking in women's rights... Abortion. It's illegal. Or women in the parliament. Out of 166 seats, 25 are occupied by women. Doesnt strike me as very equal or even close to it.

    Sexism not being a one-way street? That's such an absurd comment when comparing the sexes. Maybe it isn't but there's fifty lanes going one way and one lane going the other, so why even bother raising the point?
    ALL of this, pretty much, I think. Wait... Yes, all of it.

    I mean yes, the custody and alimony stuff usually does favor the wife over the husband, but honestly, I don't think that's a big deal, really. Unless the wife is a reprehensible human, and the husband's better parenting material. Which is why we have courts; to take issues like this in a case-by-case basis. Right?

    Anyway, yeah, I don't get how sports can be 'better' still... *furrows brow in confusion*
    "Because they still believe there's respect in dying." - Ken Foree, Dawn of the Dead
    That was pretty cool, but it wasn't Space Invaders. PS: Hodgkin's lymphoma can choke on 'em.
    "Could it be... zombies?!" - Spike the dragon
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  10. #25
    Chasing Prey shootemindehead's Avatar
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  11. #26
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    No, weed gets me paranoid. I'm more of an E fan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blind2d View Post
    ALL of this, pretty much, I think. Wait... Yes, all of it.

    I mean yes, the custody and alimony stuff usually does favor the wife over the husband, but honestly, I don't think that's a big deal, really. Unless the wife is a reprehensible human, and the husband's better parenting material. Which is why we have courts; to take issues like this in a case-by-case basis
    Correct, but even there we have lots of work to do. Many cases of rape are thrown out for instance.

    "I worked in a factory owned by Germans, at coal pits owned by Frenchmen, and at a chemical plant owned by Belgians. There I discovered something about capitalists. They are all alike, whatever the nationality. All they wanted from me was the most work for the least money that kept me alive. So I became a Communist." - Ники́та Серге́евич Хрущёв

    "Thanks for Playa Girón. Before the invasion, the revolution was weak. Now it's stronger than ever". - Che Guevara

  12. #27
    Walking Dead blind2d's Avatar
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    Right, and that grinds my buckin' gears. I think rape is worse than murder. Maybe not by much, but yeah. It's a form of physical and psychological torture. Like, seriously messed up.
    "Because they still believe there's respect in dying." - Ken Foree, Dawn of the Dead
    That was pretty cool, but it wasn't Space Invaders. PS: Hodgkin's lymphoma can choke on 'em.
    "Could it be... zombies?!" - Spike the dragon
    "ZzzZZzzt! Zzt! Zzzt!" -Cybot Noodle
    http://derpicdn.net/img/view/2014/3/...adass_rock.gif

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    A fact is something that's proven by scientific method, such as

    A football is of spherical shape and made of leather.

    The above is a fact.

    An opinion is something like this:

    I find male football to be superior to female football.

    Learn the difference, and we can talk.
    Right, then. Let's talk about facts and logic.

    1. In any sport, the objective is to win.
    2. Given that the objective is to win, players with the greatest ability to win receive the most attention, and are objectively superior to players less capable of winning.
    3. In most sports, top-rated male players can wipe the floor with top-rated female players.
    4. Therefore, male players are superior in most sports.

    It should be blindingly obvious what the scientific basis for this is. Men generally have higher testosterone levels and more muscle mass than women, and these provide a significant competitive advantage in most competitive sports. There are exceptions (men who have less muscle mass than some women), but these are not professional athletes.

    Note also that I said "most sports." There surely are sports where women can compete on an equal basis with men. Off the top of my head, I would guess that these might include motor sports, shooting sports, and horseback riding. In the absence of sexism or cultural/historical factors, I would expect the top female players and top male players in such sports to be compensated equally. But these don't include most of the sports with the most fans (and paying audiences).
    "We are not interested in the possibilities of defeat. They do not exist." - Queen Victoria

  14. #29
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    Your points are correct, but that does not inherently make male sporting better in any way except for popular opinion.
    For instance, one might also argue that the point of sports is also to entertain the viewer, in which case I personally would rather enjoy a match between two teams who are of equal skill. In that case, which sport is better? Male or female? Suddenly, sex does not matter.

    "I worked in a factory owned by Germans, at coal pits owned by Frenchmen, and at a chemical plant owned by Belgians. There I discovered something about capitalists. They are all alike, whatever the nationality. All they wanted from me was the most work for the least money that kept me alive. So I became a Communist." - Ники́та Серге́евич Хрущёв

    "Thanks for Playa Girón. Before the invasion, the revolution was weak. Now it's stronger than ever". - Che Guevara

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    For instance, one might also argue that the point of sports is also to entertain the viewer, in which case I personally would rather enjoy a match between two teams who are of equal skill. In that case, which sport is better? Male or female? Suddenly, sex does not matter.
    Quite right, the point of spectator sports, for the spectator, is entertainment. Watching teams of equal skill compete is desirable, then, because it makes for a more entertaining match. Blowouts get boring. But is that all that matters? Let's take sex out of the picture and consider a specific example: baseball.

    If watching two teams of equal skill were all that mattered, fans would have no preference between major league games and minor league games, or between minor league games and little league games for that matter. All they would care about is the two teams being on the same level. But we know that's not true. Major league games can charge much higher ticket prices, and still attract massively larger audiences. Even within the major leagues, games between evenly-matched teams considered strong will attract more viewers than games between evenly-matched teams considered weak. Clearly, fans care not only about watching evenly-matched teams compete, they also care a great deal about seeing high levels of performance. Major league teams perform at the highest level and therefore attract the most fans.

    Applying the same principles, we can easily understand why, for example, NBA (National Basketball Association) players would earn more than WNBA (Women's National Basketball Association) players, without any need to look to sexism as a factor.
    Last edited by Publius; 29-Oct-2014 at 02:02 AM. Reason: paragraph break
    "We are not interested in the possibilities of defeat. They do not exist." - Queen Victoria

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