TWD 5x04 "Slabtown" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[Neil]

Time to get them eyes checked, Neil... Wow that looked so different in my bedroom on that TV!

[MoonSylver]

Wow that looked so different in my bedroom on that TV! Uh huh...sure you weren't in there watching "The WANKING Dead" instead?

[Moon Knight]

How did Joan get bit? I'll be honest, this episode confused me at times. Maybe because I wasn't really into it.

[Neil]

How did Joan get bit? I'll be honest, this episode confused me at times. Maybe because I wasn't really into it. Wasn't she trying to escape? - - - Updated - - - Uh huh...sure you weren't in there watching "The WANKING Dead" instead? Here come the stiffy jokes!

[zombieparanoia]

Buzzbomb raised an excellent point: While it's understandable that essentially nomadic, hand-to-mouth types would become feral in a post-apocalyptic environment, and understandable that even some groups blessed with secure shelter and relatively abundant resources will still go bad, the problem I'm having is that essentially everyone who isn't Team Rick are almost entirely amoral. Even the Vatos, who are supposed to represent good people stuck in a horrible situation, behaved in a reprehensible way for much of their interactions with Rick & Co. Logically, it stands to reason that there must be other groups which have learned to walk the knife-edge between the pragmatism required to survive their harsh environment, and retaining some level of humanity. Don't get me wrong, I would EXPECT that groups like the Claimers and the Terminians would dramatically outnumber those groups that have retained common human decency. That said, the groups which retain a moral code shouldn't be so extremely outnumbered by feral savages that we never see any such groups. I could think of several ways that survivors could've well, SURVIVED, up to this point. Just an example: During the initial chaos of the zombie apocalypse, people would, among other activities, have made major runs on the gas pumps. The same could not be said of the DIESEL supply. One long-haul trucker happens to pick up whatever survivors he/she encounters along the way....they retrofit the trailer into a secure mobile apartment and voila, a viable survivor group. I don't know that the "humanity" many on here expect people and groups of people to show is really something that extends beyond modern, first world 20/21st century society BECAUSE of the abundance and technology we have at our disposal. Look at bottom tier 3rd world countries, modern times of resource insecurity or how society worked even just a couple hundred years ago, outsiders = never welcomed, possible threat and possible source of resources. If you're in Northern Waziristan and you're not from a village, don't expect them to run out and offer you water, food and shelter. Odds are you'll end up on the working side of a rifle, being told in abrupt pashto to GTFO of there. Or how in any famine situation people are simply left to die rather than share resources. Or look at many of the warlord devastated areas of Africa, they don't just brutalize each other, they brutalize their own equally, check out the VICE guide to liberia to get some sense of the kind of day to day atrocities people commit when it's rules off, weapons hot (spoiler alert: we're talking about raping and eating children to gain "magical protection" and burning or macheteing to death people suspected without evidence of being wizards and witches). People are not inherently as nice and kind as we would like to believe unless we have an abundance of resources for several decades so we take the resources for granted. I'm perfectly willing to be wrong here, I just think that historical human behavior during times of extreme resource scarcity shows the truth about how people would act post zombie apocalypse.

[Buzzbomb]

The more I watch this episode, the more my intial reservations slip away. Like most TWD I think it works much better when you can watch 2 or more episodes at a time, rather than having to wait a 'nail-biting' week between espisodes. Wyldwraith's post got me thinking about how in today's world pyschopathic personalities tend to become leaders like politicians, & company bosses... In a post zombie-apocalypse world, it's conceivable that the same kind of turds would float to the top & become leaders in the various groups (especially as those with psychopathic traits are more likely to stick their neck out in combat situations...). Also, given every survivor would be bereaved & no doubt 'unhinged' by the collapse of everything they've taken for granted, it'd be easier to fall in & follow some nitwit. In an earlier post I said that pretty much everyone Rick's group encountered were nut-cases, but thinking about it... Herschel's extended family were good folk, and elements of Martinez' group, Woodbury & the Prison had some good people too. ZombieParanoia raised some good points. I'd hope that things might be different, given that in the immediate aftermath there would still be people with some altrusitic beliefs... In the situations you describe there has only been a cycle of poor government, inept western government/commercial intervention & little democaratic history. In terms of Episode reservations... I'd guess a hospital would have it's back-up diesel generators, so it'd be possible to keep the lights on for the 2-3 years since "Z-day" assuming that a fuel truck or two were lying around, and only one floor of the hospital was occupied. This doesn't explain why they have to hook medical equipment up to batteries... unless all the juice was used to heat water for the laundry... Collecting water from the roof & using guinea pigs for food was neat (though Rabbits might have been better). On the downside - staying in a city would be bad news, even without the walking dead there would be lots of disease, feral dogs, rats... A group of police staying 2-3 years 'waiting rescue' is pretty incredulous, especially since they have been doing recon to pick up weapons based on intelligence from new the patients they encounter. I mean they must have known that no help would ever be coming? Curious that Noah also seemed to be the only (surviving) male patient....

[MoonSylver]

I'm perfectly willing to be wrong here, I just think that historical human behavior during times of extreme resource scarcity shows the truth about how people would act post zombie apocalypse. Excellent points. That's pretty much the gist of one of the main sources of dramatic conflict in these scenarios (& TWD in particular) innit? Do we try to hang on to those morals & values in the face of the zombpocalypse, or allow ourselves to slide into, or even embrace, the savagery we're capable of in the interest of survival?

[Moon Knight]

Wasn't she trying to escape? - - - Updated - - - Here come the stiffy jokes! Thanks. Like I said, not a terrible one but it wasn't holding my interest.

[zombieparanoia]

Excellent points. That's pretty much the gist of one of the main sources of dramatic conflict in these scenarios (& TWD in particular) innit? Do we try to hang on to those morals & values in the face of the zombpocalypse, or allow ourselves to slide into, or even embrace, the savagery we're capable of in the interest of survival? Yeah, but isn't that a crap conflict? Do we engage in behaviors that will essentially ensure we perish but allow us to "die with our principles intact" or behave in ways that give us a chance of long term survival? It just feels artificial how they make it all about how if we're really mean or aggressive we "lose our humanity" as though this idea of humanity they hold so dear is some kind of weak utopian version that holds no basis on any reality.

[Moon Knight]

Has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps Rick and Dawn know eachother? Maybe they were together in Kings County before Dawn moving over to Atlanta? Who knows, doubt it but would be a really cool tie in.

[MoonSylver]

Yeah, but isn't that a crap conflict? Is it? Witness disasters like Katrina or 9/11. There are plenty of tales of courage, sacrifice, selflessness as well as selfishness, cruelty, & depravity. Granted, in the zombpocalypse it would be even harder to hold on to some principals & ideals compared to the examples, as there is is no end in sight & no help on the way, but I don't find it unbelievable that there would still be people willing to try. Even in real life, there are folks who die all the time rather than compromise their principals & what they believe. I don't see the question being if we're really mean or aggressive we "lose our humanity" per se, it's a question of how far do you go, under what circumstances, for what reasons, & what is the cost to you, & are you willing to pay it? Trying to decide when the ends justify the means, & when they don't. Being able to tell the difference. The toll it takes. Do you go so far over the line that eventually you CAN'T tell the difference? How much of a savage do you allow yourself to become while fighting savages before you become one yourself? How low do you go before you stop being "us" & become "them"? I'm not really disagreeing with you here. There's no doubt that if such a scenario went down there's going to be a lot more "me first/every man for himself/I got mine, you get yours" behavior than charitable, moral, & altruistic. That's pretty much the way it is in real life as it is, even WITHOUT all that going on. But just like in real life, I have no doubt there would still be people & groups trying to cling to their morals, values, & beliefs. They would be the exception rather than the rule though I'm sure. But that's what makes for good moral conflict & dilemma IMO. It's not holding on to your morals, values, & beliefs because it's EASY to, but because it would be easy NOT to, & that when you DO have to compromise, when you DO have to do things that go against those principals, then what transpires as a result.

[MinionZombie]

Has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps Rick and Dawn know eachother? Maybe they were together in Kings County before Dawn moving over to Atlanta? Who knows, doubt it but would be a really cool tie in. I saw an image posted online from the second webisode series of a cop photo with Rick and Shane in it, which also had another two coppers - one of which was a woman - but of course it's not the same actress. It's a possibility, I suppose, but it's also a bit of a stretch - and it'd be quite the co-incidence, I'm sure. I guess we'll have to see how it plays out. ... Moon - well said, Sir, well said.

[facestabber]

Has it occurred to anyone else that perhaps Rick and Dawn know eachother? Maybe they were together in Kings County before Dawn moving over to Atlanta? Who knows, doubt it but would be a really cool tie in. Or maybe she was not law enforcement prior to these events and self appointed. But it would be an interesting meeting if they did know each other.

[Wyldwraith]

As a retort: MANY cultures from the Bronze Age onward had STRONG traditions of hospitality. Their reasons differed, but were often semi-religious (For example, a Viking leader wouldn't refuse a plate of perfectly edible but not first-rate food and a cup of mead to a beggar that announced themselves at their Hall. There's even a religious/cultural warning of the Viking leader who DOES turn such a wanderer away, the wanderer ends up being Odin...and Odin rains down divine punishment on all present.) The Greeks weren't as specific, but they had a general sense of "give the beggar/wanderer/unfortunate some bread and a glass of water, because the Gods might be watching and they punish the inhospitable." Or there's the Bedouins and some other groups from the Arabian peninsula which had strong codes of behavior detailing the duties of the host to the guest and vice versa. No, none of these cultures exist in the reality of a zombie apocalypse...but "bottom tier 3rd world nations" were mentioned...so I thought these examples might serve as contrast. The point being that hospitality has been a Virtue to varying degrees among most cultures around the world.

[Buzzbomb]

The kind of extinction level event like the zombie apocalypse also differs from your average regional or national emergency in terms of the percentage of survivors... In situations where the food/water/shelter are scarce, but the number of survivors is reasonably large, there will be some conflict & survival of the strongest... but if, say, there were only 1 in a 1,000 or 1 in 10,000 survivors then I reckon there would be more willingness to co-operate & fight the common enemy. If you think these odds are incorrect, think about how many zombies Team Rick have dispatched... if they've only killed an average of 3 zombies each per day, & they are three years in that would be roughly 1,000 kills per person, yet the zombie numbers have not diminished... so presumably the odds of still being alive are considerably worse than 1 in 1,000...