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Thread: TWD 5x08 "Coda" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

  1. #91
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    Yep! I was surprised by Beth's death... Gonna miss her, like Bob and Hershel and others... Sorry I haven't said anything about this ep before now. Looking forward to the rest of the season. I don't really have a problem with how or who they kill off, I guess, but it's sad regardless.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Publius View Post
    Well, if you look only at the characters who were killed off precisely at the time when the spotlight was on them, like the ones you list above, you'll see that kind of "pattern." But I don't think that's truly representative. You also can find plenty of examples of characters who were always major but were killed off (Shane, Lori, Hershel, Dale, Andrea, the Governor), and characters who were killed off without ever getting a real dialogue/presence focus (any number of characters who had names and/or a few lines of dialogue but no real character development). If you take a more universal view, I think they actually do a pretty good job of making sure it's possible for people to die at any point: major characters, people you're just getting to know, and people you were barely introduced to.
    T-Dog and Axel had no prior development before their demise so it was obvious when their inevitable deaths came. Bob and Beth were rather unique in this respect, but the end result was the same. Merle had nothing you can call 'development' before 'This Sorrowful Life' and by the end of it was offed. And the problem with the major characters, you've mentioned is that they were so extensively demonized that the audience is glad to see them go. I see no love for Lori, mixed reactions on how assassinated Andrea's character was in Season Three, and being portrayed as cartoonish villains both Shane and Governor were a given to be offed eventually.

    Now, Herschel was a ballsy move on their part. This show likes to claim no one is safe, but all they kill off are redshirts, minor folk, non-entities, or demonized characters that no one really cares about. Herschel was special in this respect that he was the first unquestionably major player to be killed who wasn't subjected to this treatment.

    Maybe, if Daryl was killed off without it being telegraphed that would be another ballsy move on their part.


    I'm still hoping for the best on this second half. The reason the second half of Season 4 is, in some respects, exceptional when it comes to characters is because the entire point of it was to break the group into very small factions and try to give all of them some bit of attention--Gimple trying to straddle the Grand Canyon. I hope this second half emulates that.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Now, Herschel was a ballsy move on their part. This show likes to claim no one is safe, but all they kill off are redshirts, minor folk, non-entities, or demonized characters that no one really cares about. Herschel was special in this respect that he was the first unquestionably major player to be killed who wasn't subjected to this treatment.
    There's also Dale. I don't think his death was really telegraphed, and he wasn't demonized. I know some people found him annoying, but I don't think that's the effect he was intended to have.

    Also, I think you're still cherry-picking somewhat by claiming that the deaths of characters like T-Dog and Axel were "telegraphed" because they were killed at the point when they received an unusual amount of screen time. Was Morgan's death telegraphed when he was the focus of "Clear" in season 3? Not so much. Tyreese started out as a pretty minor character in season 3. Was his death telegraphed when his character received more focus in season 4, with him in the spotlight pretty much the whole episode in "The Grove"? Apparently not. Same goes for Sasha, who was a non-entity for longer than Tyreese, then her character was ramped up in the first three episodes of season 5 without being a ploy to telegraph her death.
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  4. #94
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    I agree with Publius.

    Sounds like a bumper sticker, but yeah, good points Sir.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Publius View Post
    There's also Dale. I don't think his death was really telegraphed, and he wasn't demonized. I know some people found him annoying, but I don't think that's the effect he was intended to have.

    Also, I think you're still cherry-picking somewhat by claiming that the deaths of characters like T-Dog and Axel were "telegraphed" because they were killed at the point when they received an unusual amount of screen time. Was Morgan's death telegraphed when he was the focus of "Clear" in season 3? Not so much. Tyreese started out as a pretty minor character in season 3. Was his death telegraphed when his character received more focus in season 4, with him in the spotlight pretty much the whole episode in "The Grove"? Apparently not. Same goes for Sasha, who was a non-entity for longer than Tyreese, then her character was ramped up in the first three episodes of season 5 without being a ploy to telegraph her death.
    I agree.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

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    Dale's death sent a message to me that even quality actors can/will be killed off. As writers, this must suck. The nature of the show requires you to kill off popular and talented actors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by facestabber View Post
    Dale's death sent a message to me that even quality actors can/will be killed off. As writers, this must suck. The nature of the show requires you to kill off popular and talented actors.
    Not just that, but for everyone on the show - they all seem to be a very tight knit group (which is good for us too, as it makes for a show that people really care about when they're making it for an audience who also really care about it).

    Not only are you going to be losing a talented actor from the show, but you're also going to be losing a friend, and ultimately when someone is written out of the show they're also putting that person out of work, so I can't imagine - on a show that close knit - that it's an easy thing to do.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by facestabber View Post
    Dale's death sent a message to me that even quality actors can/will be killed off. As writers, this must suck. The nature of the show requires you to kill off popular and talented actors.
    *Comics spoiler relating to Dale versus the TV show*
     
    It still kills me that we didn't get to see him do the famous scene from the comics. Bob did fine, but it would've been amazing to see DeMunn go through with it.
    Mostly, it would have just been fantastic to have him (DeMunn) around until this current season. Sadly, his loyalty to Darabont did him in too soon...
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 18-Dec-2014 at 04:26 PM. Reason: Added tags for comics spoiler.

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    Scott M. Gimple interview on the mid-season finale:

    http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/12/01/th...ing-questions/

    Specifically on Beth's Death:
    ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Tell me how you came to the decision to kill Beth. Was that the plan once you came up with the whole hospital story structure and mapped out the direction for the first eight episodes, or did it evolve that way later?
    SCOTT M. GIMPLE: I will say that it evolved a little bit. We were going over a lot of different iterations of the season and the way that this story fits into the greater story this season and the way that it fit into Beth’s story itself — it was the story we both wanted and didn’t want to tell. We absolutely wanted to tell this very tragic story of someone who found out that they were strong all along. And even so strong as to not be able to swallow injustice when it is given to them with Noah being left behind. And strong enough to believe that maybe she would lash out against this person — and really sort of underline who she didn’t want to become, which is someone who is compromised like Dawn. That’s the tragedy, that the compromised person took her down, which is a very painful story. And it’s not a story that we relish making the audience watch, but the feeling that that leaves to the audience and to the characters is a portion of the story that we’re telling and will resonate into next season and put the characters in the places that we find them.

    What’s it like having to tell actors like Emily that they are being killed off? I imagine it is not the favorite part of your job.
    No, I can say with certainty it is by far the least favorite part of my job. And it’s something they don’t teach you in film school — like, this is how you do that. So it is even a learning process on how to do that. It’s awful because there are characters that you love writing and there are people you love working with. The one solace that I’ve had is knowing how talented the people are that I have been working with, and hoping that maybe I work with them again, or I just see them in awesome things which I would enjoy — which has been the case over and over. But yeah, it’s a terrible part of the job.

    You’ve done a great job of taking characters that were maybe a bit more in the background in the early seasons and giving them juicier storylines, but often there is a big price to pay because right after you make us care about them, you do horrible things to them. Were you worried that people were going to see this Beth death coming because the dramatic and heroic evolution you gave her this season?
    You want character deaths to have meaning in this show, meaning for the characters’ stories, and you don’t want people to get ahead of them. But this audience is so smart and so savvy that it’s like a mind game with yourself while you’re working because you’re like, well, the obvious thing to the audience might seem not obvious, and the not obvious thing is obvious because they’re just so smart, so it’s a bit of a Rubik’s Cube. Character deaths in and of itself should never be done for shock. This certainly wasn’t done for shock. It was an incredibly tragic story and so as far as people getting ahead of it, some people will always get ahead of it just because people guess everything in every direction. But as long as it resonates with people and as long as we’re going for something great and meaningful, that’s the best approach I know.

    One huge thing that may have been overlooked with the whole Beth death is that the group is all together again. Obviously there are always going to be people going off on side missions or supply runs or what have you, but is this group going to stay together for a while now?

    You know I don’t like being totally specific, but I will say we’re going to see them much more together than apart. We’ve been loading up on super wide lenses.


    ...

    And here's Andrew Lincoln on the mid-season finale:

    http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/12/01/wa...season-finale/

    ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Tell me about the emotions of having to say goodbye to Emily Kinney, who played Beth on the show?
    ANDREW LINCOLN: Yeah, man. That was such a body blow. I really didn’t see it coming. I had absolutely no idea and I think everyone was reeling from that one. Always when you get about three episodes without a death you know it doesn’t bode well. Everybody starts getting twitchy. Emily is such a beloved person on set and such an incredible actress. I understood it. You get it in hindsight because you know if she hadn’t done such a magnificent job portraying this character she probably wouldn’t be in the firing line, you know what I mean? It’s symptomatic of such a great performance that we needed an emotional impact, and unfortunately, Beth was the character to do it this season, and it was harrowing.

    The whole experience of shooting it was, as always, painful. And also you do feel robbed as well because I did not get enough time with her. I remember doing a scene with Emily during the Hershel beheading and she’s such a fine actress. I was in the middle of the scene and I walked forward to the fence having this exchange with the Governor and I remember putting my hand down and reaching out, and as he brought Hershel and Michonne on to their knees and my hand came out, she held my hand. She just knew it was there. It was that kind of amazing sense that she had. I really regret not having more time with her. I actually pitched an idea, I think in season 3. I said, “I think Beth should have a crush on Rick. And Rick doesn’t have a clue how to deal with it. And also, Carl is really upset about it. And then Hershel gets involved as well.” And everybody ignored me as usual. But I thought it was quite a good pitch.
    I would have loved to have seen that idea as a subplot.
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 19-Dec-2014 at 09:35 AM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Publius View Post
    There's also Dale. I don't think his death was really telegraphed, and he wasn't demonized. I know some people found him annoying, but I don't think that's the effect he was intended to have.
    I can agree with you here. The reason I don't take him too much into consideration is because the actor asked to be killed off no? He was likable though, so I give you that.




    Quote Originally Posted by Publius View Post
    Also, I think you're still cherry-picking somewhat by claiming that the deaths of characters like T-Dog and Axel were "telegraphed" because they were killed at the point when they received an unusual amount of screen time. Was Morgan's death telegraphed when he was the focus of "Clear" in season 3? Not so much. Tyreese started out as a pretty minor character in season 3. Was his death telegraphed when his character received more focus in season 4, with him in the spotlight pretty much the whole episode in "The Grove"? Apparently not. Same goes for Sasha, who was a non-entity for longer than Tyreese, then her character was ramped up in the first three episodes of season 5 without being a ploy to telegraph her death.

    1) I can concede to you on Axel though, I still say the moment he started yapping more than usual he was a goner. I still stand by the T-Dog death. He was literally there just to be the token black guy and moment he had more lines and something significant to say he was offed! He had virtually almost no dialogue or scenes centered on him before 'Killer Within' aired. I don't see how that wasn't telegraphed.

    2) I read the comics so I was already aware of how much of a major player Tyreese was. Even without knowledge from the comics though, his arrival was deemed in the show as a significant event. He was pushed to the supporting cast in Season Three, but I don't recall him having any substantial scenes that would imply a upcoming death? I haven't viewed that season in awhile though, so I'm defiantly rusty on it. And by all considerations, Tyreese was already considered a major player in Season Four and had some fanbase by then.

    3) Sasha remains to be seen. Will the heavy focus on character lead her to be a major player later? I'm wonder if they're harboring thoughts on making her the 'new' Andrea. It seems it might go that way. Or will it all just be a build up for her to eventually bite a bullet in the second half of this season? I'm hoping for the former, but will be prepared for the latter.


    I hope I'm not sounding like one of those inane fans that wants Walking Dead to be a show of shine and rainbows with every character living through every possible event. A show like Walking Dead should kill off regulars occasionally when the time comes. The problem is that only cannon fodder or demonized folk bit the dust. Even the main cast is problematic since characters are killed off before they peak or characterizations are usually dictated by the plot of the week. Season two is especially guilty on this. How many times did Shane, Lori, and Carol all contradict themselves in the span of an episode or two!?

    Season Four and Five has been a pleasure in watching all this being refuted to an extent, but it still dabbles on this grand problem. Oh well, hope for the best I guess. There's no reason this show can't be great.


    Edit: On Morgan, I actually have to give Walking Dead in that regard another mark in its favor as, I did think Morgan was going to bite in the end of the episode and totally erase him from appearing in future storylines. Nice to see that didn't happen.
    Last edited by Doc; 20-Dec-2014 at 10:32 AM. Reason: Added something

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