Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 48

Thread: TWD 5x15 "Try" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

  1. #31
    Feeding shootemindehead's Avatar
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    4,062
    Ireland
    Well, I think the Rick/Carol option of killing him is a bit silly TBH. But I also think Rick is losing the plot gradually and finding it extremely difficult to adjust to his new setting. There's been too much time spent out in the wild.

    The logical thing to do, now that this is all out in the open, would be to separate him from the wife and kid and supervise a clean up effort. He's hitting the bottle way to often and clearly there's some coping issues going in there with him, which he takes out on the nearest, weaker target.

    As a surgeon, he's an extremely valuable asset in a world where even small injuries would mean death or crippling. The little gay lad who broke his ankle would be in deep doo-doo without him.

    Now that everyone knows about his spousal abuse, he'll know he's under watchful eyes and with a severe enough punishment if he chooses to regress, that may be enough to make him cop on, or at least discuss what's going on.

    Of course, this is a TV show, so none of that is actually going to happen, because there would be no drama in it and besides, as is usual, it's going to hit the fan next week on a cliffhanger and they'll have more than domestic issues to worry about.

    On the subject of Rick, imagine if you were in "Alexandria" and see this guy appear and freak out like he's done in a matter of a week or so, making statements about how he's not going to allow this, that and the other. Without knowing his past, like the viewers do, I sure there would be more than a few people willing to put a bullet between his eyes.
    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

  2. #32
    Just been bitten Buzzbomb's Avatar
    Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Brimpsfield
    Age
    60
    Posts
    160
    England
    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    So - thoughts - what would you folks do with Pete?
    Stop him drinking alcohol for a start.... cig's too I guess. Then I'd resurrect some medieval style stocks & let him fester for a while.

    I'd like to see Rick in 'em too...

    An alternative would be to manacle their feet (outside the wall) & give a small rock to defend themselves with.

    PS: Hoping next week's episode is better...

  3. #33
    Dead facestabber's Avatar
    Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    716
    United States
    Pete is a complex problem. Civilization is starting over. Granted the dead rising is a new addition but this is a chance to right the wrongs of our ancestors. learn from their mistakes. But I think man is destined to fuck it up. Kill Pete exhile Pete jail Pete. There is no way way the community would unanimously agree to Petes fate. Even if it's 100 to 1, that "1" will always exist because some people are assholes and can never accept conformity at any level.

    So I still haven't answered Minions question about what I'd do with Pete. He is lowlife scum. I have zero patience in this world for a human like that. But in TWD universe he does have a skill that's extremely valuable. Would I kill him? Probably not. If he died would I shed a tear? Nope. If the town voted to kill him would I stand in the way? Nope.
    Admittedly I have changed my views over the seasons. I respected the heck out of Dales speech about losing ones humanity by executing Randal. Dale was right. But then Again so was Shane. Randal knew Maggie and could easily return to do harm. What a shitty world with shitty decisions to make. If I was in TWD universe I would see myself more as Daryl. Fiercely protective but always in a secondary role regarding decisions.

  4. #34
    Twitching
    Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Ocala, Florida
    Age
    44
    Posts
    1,109
    United States
    Incarcerate Pete,
    Put him to work as-needed as forced labor, with the understanding that if anything unpleasant happens to someone he's treating, something worse will happen to him. (Like say, cutting off one of his testicles and cauterizing the wound. After a couple of torture-punishments Pete would be quite malleable. When it comes to torture it isn't IF someone breaks, it's WHEN.

    Uncivilized? Certainly. Savage? You betcha. Effective? 100%

    In a world of bad choices you make the choice that affords the greatest quality of life to the largest # of *deserving* people. Of course that brings up the question of defining "deserving"...which isn't as complex as some might think. Loyal to the one in power, relatively stable and an asset to the group...that's really all you need from a person.

    If you can't restart civilization, do the next best thing and feather the nest of you and your packmates. Moral quandaries are for people not living in a post-apocalyptic world.

    I mean what's the alternative? Cling to some hybrid of pre and post-apocalyptic morality and let that moral code get you and your killed horribly? What kind of solution is that?
    Sooner or late any survivor is going to have to face the reality that if you're not willing to operate as a Moral Power, imposing your perspective where you cannot persuade others to adopt it, then you're going to end up either dead or, at best, one of the herd with no say in the judgment calls you're forced to accept. The pre-apocalypse world is NOT coming back, nothing remotely resembling said reality will be coming back unless or until the Walkers all fall over and cease to function.

    Faced with the choice of either shaping what the operating social code will be for those who join you and yours and will have to abide by, or being one of those forced into a role of passively having to accept the dictates of someone else, I would rather be among those hammering out the rules than among those simply left with no choice but to abide by said dictates.

    Whether acting in such a fashion is moral or not is IRRELEVANT. Rick accepted the responsibility to look out for the best interests of his people, plain and simple. Like every other group of people Team Rick has encountered, the Alexandrians have their heads firmly stuck up their asses and doggedly refuse to accept reality as it is and not as they would like it to be. As such, the Alexandrians are what amounts to an impediment to the survival of Team Rick. Now if some of the Alexandrians come to their senses and align wholeheartedly with Team Rick, and are willing to take action in such a way as to prove their loyalty to the group, all the better. As for the rest, either get on board, get the hell out of the way (permanently, ie: Pack the fuck up and travel a long, long ways away from Alexandria) or get trodden underfoot.

    Playing at being civilized has already gotten Noah killed, Tara critically injured and it came ever so close to getting Glenn killed as well. What has Team Rick received in exchange for the loss of these loyal group members that were stable, known quantities? Deep-seated suspicion and hostility from the Alexandrians, who are nothing but a bunch of sniveling cowards looking for a free lunch.

    Put it another way: Would the world lose anything meaningful if Team Rick went all feudal on Alexandria and ground to paste those cowards unwilling to make themselves useful? The absolutely key thing to remember here is that pre-apocalypse morality is not an Absolute Truth. Said moral code was the best effort to create a social contract adapted as effectively as possible to the reality of the populace. Now that said reality is utterly different, there is no inherent value in the retention of that moral code. Like everything else in a day-to-day survival situation it either helps the survival effort or it hinders it. If the latter (which I believe we can all agree is true given the utter breakdown of all aspects of society) it should be discarded.

    After all, Rick sounding like Shane to an extent is not necessarily a bad thing. If it means he's unswervingly committed to the welfare of his people, even if that means gutting the lives of people who've chosen not to positively contribute to the survival effort of Rick & Co, what does that make him besides a good leader?

  5. #35
    Fresh Meat UndeadHippo's Avatar
    Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Age
    47
    Posts
    36
    UK
    During the fistfight, Jessie ran to try and stop Pete, and got knocked on her ass for her trouble. I thought "yay, now the people can see what an utter bastard Pete is" then moments later, Carl ran in to try and stop Rick, and got the same treatment. Is Rick any better than Pete at this point? He's lashing out and hitting his son, without thinking. He's already killed his best friend. He's ripped a man's throat out with his teeth, and summarily executed an unarmed prisoner in a particularly violent way.

    Thank god for Michonne!
    I'm hungry, but I'm not hungry hungry.

  6. #36
    Walking Dead Moon Knight's Avatar
    Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,845
    United States
    Seperate Pete from Jesse and take away his alcohol. Keep a watch on him. He still causes trouble then it's time he looks at the flowers.

    It's not an easy choice but in the zombie apocalypse, nothing is.

    Rick made the right call confronting Pete. It's just that he went about it the worst way possible.
    Last edited by Moon Knight; 27-Mar-2015 at 12:04 AM. Reason: Error
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  7. #37
    Twitching BillyRay's Avatar
    Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Mill-wacky
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,117
    United States
    Give Pete Carol as his babysitter. That'll set him straight...
    Those aren't real problems, Sam.


  8. #38
    Just Married AcesandEights's Avatar
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Mid-Hudson Valley, NY
    Posts
    7,479
    United States
    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post

    So - thoughts - what would you folks do with Pete?

    "Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true." --Lord Dunsany

  9. #39
    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    The Mandatorium
    Posts
    24,165
    UK
    Interesting responses to the Pete question, folks. It's a thorny, complicated problem isn't it?

    I imagine Alexandria is gonna get a rude awakening in the season finale ... maybe they'll get some post-ZA sense knocked into them?

    Quote Originally Posted by UndeadHippo View Post
    During the fistfight, Jessie ran to try and stop Pete, and got knocked on her ass for her trouble. I thought "yay, now the people can see what an utter bastard Pete is" then moments later, Carl ran in to try and stop Rick, and got the same treatment. Is Rick any better than Pete at this point? He's lashing out and hitting his son, without thinking. He's already killed his best friend. He's ripped a man's throat out with his teeth, and summarily executed an unarmed prisoner in a particularly violent way.

    Thank god for Michonne!
    To be fair to Rick, he only shoved Carl away - whereas Pete flat out slapped Jessie down. For Rick it was about keeping Carl out of the fight, but for Pete it was just another target for his violence ... I'd like to think that the Alexandrians would notice the difference, and if they didn't already know Pete was beating his wife then they should damn well know now.

    Quote Originally Posted by AcesandEights View Post

  10. #40
    Twitching
    Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Ocala, Florida
    Age
    44
    Posts
    1,109
    United States
    Again,
    I see it as neither thorny or complicated. The situation with Pete is merely symptomatic of the larger problem posed by the Alexandrians useful-as-tits-on-a-bull way of doing things. How DARE they, even for an INSTANT PRESUME to JUDGE anything or anyone that's a part of Team Rick??? These people have huddled inside their walled community and let cowardice become the operating mindset of their populace. They lucked out so far and by that sheer luck experienced none of the calamities other survivors have been forced to contend with in the zombie apocalypse. Then, rather than adapt to reality, they try to enshrine their cowardice in the justification that they're somehow rebuilding the pre-apocalypse world. BULLSHIT.

    You step on Pete HARD, and you tell any of these other sniveling cowards that their free pass is over. What's difficult to grasp about this? Toss a couple of the most vocal dissenters (like say, Deanna and Gabriel) into a pit full of Walkers, and force the rest of the community to watch at gunpoint. That will clarify things immediately. Team Rick tried the let's earn their acceptance route and it went over like a lead balloon. It's become quite obvious the Alexandrians are either going to turn on them completely or at the very least try and force them out to maintain the current status quo that has Deanna on top of the heap. So, Team Rick can either go back out into the wilderness that nearly ground them down to nothing, or they can do a few more unpleasant things and have a nice defensible place to live for awhile until this place goes tits-up just like the Prison did, which is inevitable.

    Why's that a difficult choice or thorny moral quandary for a man with people to look after, who are looking to him for leadership? I just don't get it.

    Edit: BTW Aces, rock on man. The Misery hobbling is a beautiful, beautiful piece of imagery here.
    Last edited by Wyldwraith; 27-Mar-2015 at 06:41 PM. Reason: More to say.

  11. #41
    Fresh Meat UndeadHippo's Avatar
    Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Age
    47
    Posts
    36
    UK
    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post

    To be fair to Rick, he only shoved Carl away - whereas Pete flat out slapped Jessie down. For Rick it was about keeping Carl out of the fight, but for Pete it was just another target for his violence ... I'd like to think that the Alexandrians would notice the difference, and if they didn't already know Pete was beating his wife then they should damn well know now.
    see, there's the thing, we had a much better view of what was happening than the average observer, and both took different things from what we saw. Maybe Joe Alexandrian would say "Pete was just trying to stop Jessie getting involved in his fight with that obviously deranged outsider"

    Joe Alexandrian is obviously wrong, and an idiot, but never underestimate people's stupidity and willful ignorance about things that don't fit their comfortable world view.

    as an aside....where was Gabriel amongst this weeks events? i didn't see him in the crowd of onlookers, and it seems odd that he has just vanished after last weeks little speech?
    I'm hungry, but I'm not hungry hungry.

  12. #42
    Walking Dead Moon Knight's Avatar
    Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    1,845
    United States
    Gabriel was most likely tucked away in his Church. I take it Abraham was out leading the construction crew.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  13. #43
    Twitching
    Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Ocala, Florida
    Age
    44
    Posts
    1,109
    United States
    I still don't see the ambiguity here,

    1) Deanna KNEW Pete was beating Jessie, and ignored it because it was convenient and because she was unwilling to do without Pete's services. In no uncertain terms she decided that Jessie being beaten progressively worse, and their kids living in fear was an acceptable price to pay for said medical services.

    2) Deanna has an axe to grind because of Aidan. Whatever she may say in politician-speak, she holds Team Rick responsible for Aidan's death, and even if everything inside her is telling her Nicholas's account of events is 100% bullshit, she WANTS to believe Nicholas, because it suits her agenda.

    3) Alexandria itself is having a corrosive effect on Team Rick. Forced to endure an inherently flawed system set up to support cowards who want other people to do the dirty work, while said cowards retain the right to sit in judgment of those doing said dirty work. The very fact Michonne turned on Rick in support of these people when Deanna had as much as stated Rick was being outed tells you just how much the very place is tearing at the bonds that have allowed their group to survive.

    4) This goes back to Point 2. If Deanna was interested in keeping the peace and resolving the situation fairly, she wouldn't immediately have depicted Rick as the one who was the problem. Basic questions in need of answers before someone seeking to be fair go something like this: "Jessie, how did this fight start and why?" "Rick, why did this conflict end up in a bloody brawl in the street?" "Pete, same question as Rick." Deanna had no interest in seeing the situation resolved appropriately. To her it was nothing more than the opportune cassus belli to go after Rick. What Deanna wants is Rick gone, but select elements of Team Rick (elements she's certain will be more malleable and fall in with her way of doing things) to stay and continue providing the free lunch the Alexandrians want and feel entitled to.

     
    If Deanna isn't arranging things to get rid of the leader of Team Rick, then why the immediate pow-wow to discuss and cement his banishing? Answer: Deanna a) Doesn't want to give the members of the group time to really examine what's happening, and b) She doesn't want them grouped together and operating as a unit again. For example: Daryl's currently out on a run. Deanna wants to present Rick's banishment as a fait accompli, and have him gone before Daryl even knows about it. She's counting on the fact that because it's a HEAVY decision on an individual level to choose going back out there, if she gets Rick gone now, now, now, it'll physically break up the group. Those inclined to stay will be able to justify their disloyalty as follows "He's been gone for X amount of time. There's no guarantee we could even catch up with him...." Everything Rick said once the fight was over was true, but Michonne's need not to be out there any longer caused her to turn traitor. Michonne knew if Rick wasn't taken out of commission there was a high % probability that most if not all the group (aside from her) would've rallied to Rick. Now however she's given Deanna the optimal venue to a) Arrange Rick's banishment and b) Smear him in such a way so as to create a rift large enough in their group that their unity is lost. Judging by the previews of the finale, Deanna gets exactly what she wants.


    The sad thing is this: There's no long-term future for most members of Team Rick in Alexandria. Glenn is right behind Rick on Deanna's shit list because of Aidan. Maggie and Glenn are a pair, so if Glenn is pushed out Maggie follows. Carl and Judith are Rick's kids, and even though I might be able to envision a remote possibility of Rick being willing to leave them behind to keep them safe, there's no damned way Carl would allow it unless their going to keep him imprisoned. If Carl's out they certainly aren't leaving Judith behind...and Carol has an attachment to the kids, plus her own unique relationship with Rick that I believe is strong enough she'd leave Alexandria with Rick. Sasha is in so much pain she doesn't care where she is/where she's going. Abraham and therefore Rosita are something of a question mark, but long-term I don't see Abraham accepting the cut and run at the first sign of trouble modus operandi of the Alexandrians.

    So all that Alexandria could accomplish would be to effect the disintegration of Team Rick. I'm really, REALLY interested to see how the other members of the group react when Deanna make it clear in no uncertain terms that she's angling for Rick's banishment. I find it difficult to believe that if faced with the choice Stay Without Rick or Leave With Rick and nothing in between that, with the exception of Michonne and possibly Abraham/Rosita/Eugene that any of the others would choose to stay.

    Of course there's an absolutely idiotic way I could see this going down
     
    That Rick nobly convinces the group to stay and let him leave alone.
    The entire idea is asinine and ultimately unworkable for the reasons listed above, but I could see the writers having Rick do something so stupidly self-sacrificing.

    I have a really REALLY bad feeling about the Finale. I just don't see the inevitable cliffhanger ending on any hopeful or group-sticking-together note. There's going to be another separation of group members, and likely one that persists for some time into next season. This is the first season finale where I feel like there's no hope for plot development that will be immediately interesting when the new season picks up.

    Glenn's got this semi-irrational commitment to make the group's integration into Alexandria a success because Noah believed in the place, and he feels doing otherwise means Noah died for nothing.

    I just don't get why it's so hard for any of them to see that this is what Deanna has wanted for some time. Pete was (so far as the witnesses saw) just as much to blame as Rick, and Jessie did say she wanted his help and I feel her sense of being responsible for what happened would cause her to speak up to the effect that a) Pete began the violence when SHE asked him to leave, and b) Pete attacked Rick, who took a lot in the interests of de-escalating the situation. Even if she stays silent you don't see Deanna calling a meeting to say "We need to talk about Pete."

    And btw, how much bullshit is it that SHE maneuvers Rick and Michonne into becoming town law enforcement and then, the VERY FIRST TIME that there's a major law-enforcement decision to be made that a) Deanna damned well knows Rick is in the right, and damned well knows her "If it gets worse beyond X-point I'll banish him (Pete) is disingenuous bullshit, because if the current level of violent escalation isn't enough to reach the banishment threshold then the only significant tier of escalation left is for Pete to beat Jessie to death. And you KNOW if THAT happened, Deanna's logic would be "We can't change what's already happened, so why should we lose the surgeon who can save lives?" And b) Her primary reason for wanting rid of Rick is her completely unfounded hope/belief that without his influence the other members of the group will give her the best of both worlds. Providing her with their expertise to do the heavy lifting, but taking their lead from her and accepting her as the authority they answer to.

    If you can't tell I'm fairly embittered at how this last episode went, and how the finale seems to be shaping up based on the previews. Always before I felt invested as a viewer in the plot-apex the finale represents plays out. This time though, the ONLY WAY I see anything worth watching is if Team Rick (or at least 80-90% of it) either leaves immediately with Rick when he's forced out, or they bail on Alexandria immediately (like within 15-20 minutes of real time).

    The writers have played the Group Gets Fragmented And Takes Quite Some Time to Reunite AND Meanwhile There's Lots of Ping-Ponging Between the Disparate Group Fragments card once too often. Every Season seems to go that way with the exception of what, the one season where it started with Farmer Rick? And even then you had the plague plotline soon after which accomplished the same thing. And no, this isn't a matter of limited Tropes common to the genre.

    Breaking the group up and Ponging between the separate elements has been so thoroughly done to death that truthfully the show would need to run for say, 8-10 more seasons before they could justifiably use it again. Doing it every single Season is TIRED. C'mon, tell me you don't all agree?

  14. #44
    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
    Super Moderator

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    The Mandatorium
    Posts
    24,165
    UK
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Toss a couple of the most vocal dissenters (like say, Deanna and Gabriel) into a pit full of Walkers, and force the rest of the community to watch at gunpoint.
    I generally agree with you, up to a point - and that point is this.

    A surefire way to an argument into a war. You might get some folks to fear you enough, but you'll just as likely push others in the opposite direction and create a dangerous individual or individuals. If you're looking to live in Alexandria you'll want to form a basis of trust to work on - descending to the depths of The Governor or The Termites or The Claimers, being needlessly sadistic to make your point, is the preserve of a tyrant. What's the point in anything if you're just going to be a monster?

    Such an action would repulse Team Rick as much as the Alexandrians. I understand the needs of Team Rick, but enacting them on the basis of grotesque violence, torture, and intimidation is not the way to go about it - all that's going to achieve is a dangerous foundation that'll inevitably crumble. If someone came into your town and took over by feeding your leader(s) to a pit full of walkers what would you think of that? Even if they all bow their heads you've not won them over in their hearts or minds, you've created an enemy that'll seek to overthrow you when you begin to relax or they get an opportune moment. If you were the one doing the barbarous act - could you ever, truly, sleep soundly - both in terms of the emotional impact of doing something so reprehensible, but also in that you'd not actually have any trust established with these people.

    When Rick brought the remnants of Woodbury to the prison it was founded on trust - and it worked - had The Governor not come back to mess it all up it would have stayed that way (unless the walker/fence situation got fully out of hand). Without trust you can't form an effective township in the post-ZA ... the Termites had trust (between them), but their brutal ways were ultimately the end of them ... same with The Claimers ... and Woodbury was built upon a lie (The Governor) and came crashing down, once again as a result of the babaric ways of the leader.

  15. #45
    Twitching
    Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Ocala, Florida
    Age
    44
    Posts
    1,109
    United States
    You're absolutely right Minion,
    You could never trust the other Alexandrians after taking over forcibly. Which is why as soon as you've momentarily cowed them with a show of force, you ELIMINATE THEM ALL. The conflict is less overt, but the continued existence of the Alexandrians leads to one of two things. 1) Team Rick ends up outed in one way or another, and thus back at square one. Or 2) Team Rick disintegrates as elements of the group make different decisions, destroying group unity and leaving both fragments as non-viable units of continued survival.

    It isn't just a few Alexandrians who are bad people and can be culled to purify the population. NONE of the Alexandrians "get it"...they don't want to get it, but they want people who do get it to take on all the high-risk tasks, and reserve the right to judge how those people carry out said tasks.

    What Glenn said about Nicholas is true about every single Alexandrian with the possible exception of Aaron. To paraphrase Glenn "You should all be DEAD, but that wall went up JUST in time." The only problem is Glenn's solution for "saving" Nicholas can't be applied to the entirety of the Alexandrian population. That would leave what's left of Team Rick making all the runs, and taking all the risks (and suffering all the casualties) while the Alexandrians kick back in perfect safety and enjoy the fruits of Team Rick's labors.

    Deanna (among other Alexandrians, plus Gabriel) have already succeeded in framing the debate to their liking. Deanna renders the town uninhabitable for Team Rick, in one way or another, but she can't be eliminated without starting a pitched battle.

    Where are the holes in my reasoning? If Deanna's leadership renders the town uninhabitable for Team Rick (we can debate whether that's in the short or long-term) and Deanna can't be eliminated without starting a war, how is it not a three way choice and two choices aren't really viable. 1) Submit to Deanna's authority and stand by while she banishes Rick. 2) Leave with Rick as a group, ending up back at square one. 3) Eliminate Deanna and do what's necessary to take control of Alexandria in a definitive long-term manner.

    Integration is no longer, and in fact I can make a strong argument that it never was a true option for the group. So, diplomacy has failed. Why should Team Rick return to square one survival-wise, having paid in blood for Alexandria? Because it's the moral thing to do? I don't accept that. In the post-apocalyptic world you don't have the luxury of worrying about the welfare of others. You take care of you and yours, and anyone who objects while you're in the process of taking care of your own becomes the enemy.

    Team Rick doesn't NEED more allies, or more friends. They DO NEED the supplies, the walls and the shelter Alexandria provides. In light of that need, and the fact that integration is only an option if it includes absolute capitulation to Deanna, how is there any other rational choice besides taking what Alexandria offers by force?

    Morality only enters into an equation if someone is alive and in a position to force you and yours to a position of accountability to their moral code. Corpses (genuine ones, not the undead variety) I find are very easygoing and non-argumentative.

    Or is it solely on a moral basis that you object Minion?

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •