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Thread: TWD 5x16 "Conquer" (Season 5 Finale) episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

  1. #31
    Feeding shootemindehead's Avatar
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    "Wolves Not Far" written in the same fashion as "Don't Dead Open Inside" from the first episode.

    Hmmmm...

    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

  2. #32
    Twitching
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    First @Minion: I know you were kidding around. Re-reading what I wrote I could see how it sounded defensive, my bad. What I was meaning to highlight was an admission of my own bias regarding an Us Vs Them sort of mentality.

    Second @Sandrock: I've got to VEHEMENTLY disagree with you here. When a sociopath strolls up to you, sticks a gun in your face and, when you tell him he can have everything of value you possess, informs you he/she requires your life as well, THEN indicates this is what they do as a long-term vocation....If you get the upper hand as Morgan did, and now you have these two SELF-AVOWED sadistic sociopaths completely in your power and you choose to let them go? How are you NOT directly responsible for what they do? If you'd killed them then red hoodie guy doesn't get murdered by them (for starters). Morgan was in essence the embodiment of the crossroads that determined if Red Hoodie Guy gets murdered or not.

  3. #33
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Second @Sandrock: I've got to VEHEMENTLY disagree with you here. When a sociopath strolls up to you, sticks a gun in your face and, when you tell him he can have everything of value you possess, informs you he/she requires your life as well, THEN indicates this is what they do as a long-term vocation....If you get the upper hand as Morgan did, and now you have these two SELF-AVOWED sadistic sociopaths completely in your power and you choose to let them go? How are you NOT directly responsible for what they do? If you'd killed them then red hoodie guy doesn't get murdered by them (for starters). Morgan was in essence the embodiment of the crossroads that determined if Red Hoodie Guy gets murdered or not.
    Good point. But then Morgan did seemingly try to finish them off potentially by putting them in the car and attracting walkers using the horn!

    ps: How are horns still working on cars after all this time?
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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  4. #34
    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Good point. But then Morgan did seemingly try to finish them off potentially by putting them in the car and attracting walkers using the horn!

    ps: How are horns still working on cars after all this time?
    Actually Lennie James said that Morgan's intention with the horn was to make sure there were no walkers about ... I read it like you did too, so the actuality was a little bit surprising, but then again it does fit into his newfound philosophy that all life is precious.

    Of course, even if he had have killed those two, it's quite possible that Red Riding Hood might have stumbled across other members of the Wolves gang ... but it is fair to say that Morgan does have some responsibility in the matter ... however, it could just as easily go another way: Morgan kills them, their gang discover it (perhaps even witness it) and track him down, and he suffers an even worse fate.

    What will bring The Wolves to Alexandria though, will likely be Aaron's dropped bag (which contained the photos - interesting to see a pic of Rick and Carl, after Michonne pointed out in an earlier episode that there were no people in the pictures he was carrying) ... it'll take them a while to figure out where that place is (they are about 50 miles away from Alexandria, according to Daryl/Aaron - when they were outside the gates of Del Arno Foods).

    As for car horns - same way that petrol isn't breaking down and becoming ineffective - artistic license. Although it was nice in season 4 that Daryl resurrected a car battery from the shelf of that kudzu-covered garage. When there's time to include something like that it's nice that they do - it illustrates just another way in which the zombie apocalypse is such a drag to be living in.

  5. #35
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    What will bring The Wolves to Alexandria though, will likely be Aaron's dropped bag (which contained the photos - interesting to see a pic of Rick and Carl, after Michonne pointed out in an earlier episode that there were no people in the pictures he was carrying) ... it'll take them a while to figure out where that place is (they are about 50 miles away from Alexandria, according to Daryl/Aaron - when they were outside the gates of Del Arno Foods).
    TBH - We still don't really know what they're all about? If we assume they broke into Noah's complex, then clearly they have numbers/strength, and clearly they like chopping up people for some reason?
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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  6. #36
    Dead facestabber's Avatar
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    Wylde, some people are just not cut out to kill. I disagree with Morgans decision. F*ck those pr*cks. They would have not been allowed to awake from their KO'd state in my world. I can't blame Morgan for every evil deed they do now though. He just can't kill. Some people are the sheep, some are the wolves and some are the sheep dog. And being that this is TWD his decision will come back to haunt.

  7. #37
    Just been bitten DayoftheZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by facestabber View Post
    Wylde, some people are just not cut out to kill. I disagree with Morgans decision. F*ck those pr*cks. They would have not been allowed to awake from their KO'd state in my world. I can't blame Morgan for every evil deed they do now though. He just can't kill. Some people are the sheep, some are the wolves and some are the sheep dog. And being that this is TWD his decision will come back to haunt.
    Fact is if they made the right decision The Walking Dead would be dull television.

    I don’t feel that trying to maintain a moral compass even in those dark times. Morgan has come through losing a wife and son and he has found a way of surviving that suits him. He looks well fed clean, and well rested so he must be doing something right.

    I can’t blame Morgan for Little Dead Riding Hood being killed by the Big Bad Wolves because we don’t know what led to him being caught. He was being tracked by Daryl and Aaron and seemed oblivious so he may have made an error. As MZ said it won’t be his fault they turn up at Alexandria either it is Aarons so for me Morgan’s conscience is clear (pun intended).

  8. #38
    Chasing Prey MoonSylver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    "Wolves Not Far" written in the same fashion as "Don't Dead Open Inside" from the first episode.

    Hmmmm...




  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    TBH - We still don't really know what they're all about? If we assume they broke into Noah's complex, then clearly they have numbers/strength, and clearly they like chopping up people for some reason?
    They're a bunch of bastards you'd never want to cross ... so generally rather dangerous (and crafty!) by the looks of things. I think I read something, or heard something, in which the Wolves were summed up as having the skills of Daryl Dixon, but without the sense of moral purpose ... so that sounds pretty scary to me!!!

    We'll find out more about these folks in season 6 - that'll be a main thrust I'd imagine - but it's also cool to hear Gimple say (in a statement read on Talking Dead) that the walkers are going to pose a serious threat in the first half of season 6. No spoilers, but having reminded myself of this kind of point in time in the comics, I cannot wait to see how they put some of that walker danger on screen!

    Quote Originally Posted by DayoftheZ View Post
    As MZ said it won’t be his fault they turn up at Alexandria either it is Aarons so for me Morgan’s conscience is clear (pun intended).
    And even then you couldn't really blame Aaron that much - they were in a tight spot, he dropped his bag, they had no idea of the Wolves, and the compound was filled with walkers so he couldn't retrieve it - plus, after being through that, you know that bad people could be close, so you don't want to hang around even for your bag (he might also not be thinking "photos = clues") ... they were 50 miles away from Alexandria, too.

  10. #40
    Just been bitten DayoftheZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    And even then you couldn't really blame Aaron that much - they were in a tight spot, he dropped his bag, they had no idea of the Wolves, and the compound was filled with walkers so he couldn't retrieve it - plus, after being through that, you know that bad people could be close, so you don't want to hang around even for your bag (he might also not be thinking "photos = clues") ... they were 50 miles away from Alexandria, too.
    Totally agree with all that. I'm interested in the fact that walkers with W on their heads have been seen pretty close to Alexandria (where Rick hid the gun for one). So either the Wolves have been close to the safe zone or the walkers have flocked towards fresh meat.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    They're a bunch of bastards you'd never want to cross ... so generally rather dangerous (and crafty!) by the looks of things. I think I read something, or heard something, in which the Wolves were summed up as having the skills of Daryl Dixon, but without the sense of moral purpose ... so that sounds pretty scary to me!!!

    We'll find out more about these folks in season 6 - that'll be a main thrust I'd imagine - but it's also cool to hear Gimple say (in a statement read on Talking Dead) that the walkers are going to pose a serious threat in the first half of season 6. No spoilers, but having reminded myself of this kind of point in time in the comics, I cannot wait to see how they put some of that walker danger on screen!
    This period is amazing and I cannot wait!

    Something else I've been thinking of, are the Wolves carving "W"s on Walker heads or are they killing humans and carving them up before they turn?

    I kinda wish they explained the Wolves more BUT at the same time I'm happy they left us with plenty questions going into season 6. The writers made the right call.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  12. #42
    Twitching
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    Guys I just have to dig in and vehemently disagree,
    All results are causal in nature. NOTHING in the world happens that isn't the result of all the other things that lead up to said event. Like dominoes in a line, the one falling strikes the next, causing it to fall, into the next and so on.

    The DIFFERENCE is that, with most of our decisions we can't be held liable for many second-step-removed outcomes of our actions, because we lack the ability to perceive what will happen in the future. HOWEVER, there are times, Morgan's encounter with the Wolves wherein he learned that they're not in it for survival's sake but rather the "JOY OF KILLING" and his subsequent fight with and victory over said Wolves being one of those times, where the person DOES have a crystal-clear picture of the future outcomes depending on the choice they make in the here-and-now.

    The "Question of Responsibility" is this: Was Morgan factually aware there was a 99.999999% chance that if he allowed the two Wolves to live, barring their immediate demise from some other cause after their regaining consciousness (Like a Walker encounter), that those two Wolves would IN FACT **MURDER** the very next human being they stumbled across?

    I believe it to be inarguable that Yes, Morgan WAS AWARE that those 2 Wolves would Murder again if given the opportunity. Therefore, Morgan could indeed with 99.9999% accuracy predict that the result of his decision to spare the 2 Wolves would, IN POINT OF FACT result in the homicide of each and every person the Wolves were successful in ambushing From that point forward!

    If an action of PURE UNADULTERATED *EVIL* is a) Foreseeable with 99-100% accuracy, and (Here's the KEY PART) b) COMPLETELY WITHIN ONE'S POWER TO PREVENT, Then the "Onus to Act" is borne by the one who can foresee and control that outcome. Failing to prevent an act of Pure Unadulterated Evil (the repetition of descriptive terms is deliberate, for emphasis) that this person can prevent at a) No tangible risk, and b) No material cost (Such as endangering the life of a loved one), is EXACTLY EQUIVALENT to killing their victims with the same premeditated deliberation and malice aforethought as the Wolves themselves.

    Claiming Moral Imperative (Such as a refusal to kill ANY HUMAN, under ANY AND ALL CIRCUMSTANCES) simply CANNOT be defended on the grounds of morality.
    Now, stating that one is TOO WEAK, and *ACTUALLY* incapable of killing the avowed sadistic sociopathic serial killers because of one's impassable visceral reaction at the thought of killing is a different matter. I can accept as, let's call it an "Article of Faith", there are by definition many people lacking the courage and intestinal fortitude to do the right thing. But that's a matter of a fundamental emotional and psychological (and perhaps even physical, some people are after all such weaklings they cannot bear up under the sight of blood even to save and innocent life) weakness.

    NOT a matter of Morality. Putting one's "Moral Code" on so high a pedestal that you are willing to see innocent people die in terror, begging for their lives from those who will a) Enjoy their begging and probably become sexually aroused by said begging, and b) Are fundamentally empty of the quality of human empathy, thereby precluding the faintest possibility of mercy is, by definition, the very HEIGHT of SELFISHNESS and a fundamental failure to accept personal responsibility for doing what is manifestly the right thing to do (Killing the Wolves).

    Morgan is therefore EQUALLY RESPONSIBLE for the death of Red Hoodie Man and all subsequent victims, on the grounds of a fundamental LACK of empathy and the ABSOLUTE DEVALUATION of the lives of every person the Wolves will encounter and kill.

    Morgan could easily foresee that these two serial killers, with no other accomplices even, could cold-bloodedly murder dozens if not hundreds of people before someone else with the opportunity and basic decency to end the lives of these monsters appears.

    While I can as a matter of civility cordially agree to disagree with those who feel differently, I will end by saying this: If I were in TWD world, aware of what transpired between Morgan and the 2 Wolves, and the subsequent murder of Red Hoodie Man, I would, for moral reasons and with premeditation, shoot Morgan in the back of the head from a safe distance at my earliest possible convenience as punishment for his cold-blooded murder of Red Hoodie Man. I don't know how I could possibly give more emphasis to the strength of my moral conviction in the matter of this hypothetical situation. Stripped down to the basics, not only would I execute Morgan for his crime, I'd feel good about myself for having done it, and would proudly pass it on as a significant achievement in my life to my kids and grandkids when they were old enough to grasp the subtleties of the event.

    Poscript: In a Post-Apocalyptic world, whose Survivors presumably retain the Hope of one day restarting civilization and thereby reclaiming all that Mankind had lost, I would not want such a moral weakling potentially propagating and spreading his moral deficit to the next generation as a sort of "Socially Communicable Disease." A renewed humanity would be served best by the removal before said renewal of all those who are willing to personally sacrifice innocent Men, Women and Children because they're too SQUEAMISH to do what any IMBECILE could determine was The Right Thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Update:
    I concede my convictions may appear rather extreme, so let's try something else because I *GENUINELY DO NOT UNDERSTAND* this. How and why could Morgan NOT be as responsible for the killing as the 2 Wolves he chose not to eliminate?

    There has to be more to it than a simplistic "The Wolves chose to commit the actual Murder, not Morgan. Therefore Morgan isn't as guilty/responsible as they."
    Or is that really what it comes down to? Because like I said, I honestly don't get and can't imagine how, in this case at least* my position on this particular matter isn't Self Evident to all.

    Can someone explain this to me? If it helps I'll even promise not to argue the point further...but I am TRULY mystified by this difference in perspective. Put most simply, I feel like (as a similar example) someone is arguing with me that the color red is not, in point of fact, red. I am just as confused as to how someone else could be convinced that the responsibility for the Homicide of Red Hoodie Man isn't, at the VERY LEAST, *EQUALLY SHARED* by both Morgan and the 2 Wolves.

    Help me out here?
    Last edited by Wyldwraith; 04-Apr-2015 at 08:18 PM. Reason: One more thing to say.

  13. #43
    Just been bitten zomtom's Avatar
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    I must admit I agree with much of what you say. I too believe Morgan is indirectly responsible for the deaths of anybody else the two Wolves murder after his encounter with them. It is obviously a given those two creeps were murderers. I however STRONGLY disagree with your statement you would shoot Morgan in the back of the head. Even in an apocalyptic world; that just is NOT right.

  14. #44
    Twitching
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    @Zomtom: Fair enough friend. Different people take Right Vs Wrong to different extremes. I'm something of an Absolutist, but I can respect the opinions of others sufficiently to say I understand why you see it that way, and I would vehemently defend your right to your opinion.

    I simply offer this as, let's say food for thought. If you were protecting your family (or whatever parts of it still survived) in a zombie apocalypse, and someone came along and, let's say tortured, raped and murdered one of your female family members...and then, in the midst of your grieving you met a man who told you about having been attacked by men whose descriptions matched those of the men who killed your mother, daughter, sister or neice..and he told you about how he got the better of them and knocked them out...after they'd told him they wanted to kill him just for the pleasure of it...would you trust that man and want him around the people you love? What if you're off foraging for supplies and he's at your camp with your family...and more killers show up? Him being unwilling to take a life for any reason would limit him dramatically as a potential protector, make him much more likely to die in a fight with said killers, and thereby leave your family unprotected.

    You might well be willing to shoulder such a risk. I couldn't, in good conscience, let this man continue on his way and maybe join another group of survivors who come to eventually believe they can rely on him in a worst-case-scenario. I'd feel responsible if his Code of Pacifism got someone else's family killed. But that's my own highly subjective moral code at work.

  15. #45
    Just Married AcesandEights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post

    I simply offer this as, let's say food for thought. If you were protecting your family (or whatever parts of it still survived) in a zombie apocalypse, and someone came along and, let's say tortured, raped and murdered one of your female family members...and then, in the midst of your grieving you met a man who told you about having been attacked by men whose descriptions matched those of the men who killed your mother, daughter, sister or neice..and he told you about how he got the better of them and knocked them out...after they'd told him they wanted to kill him just for the pleasure of it...would you trust that man and want him around the people you love? What if you're off foraging for supplies and he's at your camp with your family...and more killers show up? Him being unwilling to take a life for any reason would limit him dramatically as a potential protector, make him much more likely to die in a fight with said killers, and thereby leave your family unprotected.

    You might well be willing to shoulder such a risk. I couldn't, in good conscience, let this man continue on his way and maybe join another group of survivors who come to eventually believe they can rely on him in a worst-case-scenario. I'd feel responsible if his Code of Pacifism got someone else's family killed. But that's my own highly subjective moral code at work.
    So you would murder a pacifist who you feel indirectly caused the death of someone else he never met, on the off chance they may once again fail to murder someone in a manner that you would approve of again at some hypothetical point in the future? That does not even seem to approach an ethically sound point of view.

    "Men choose as their prophets those who tell them that their hopes are true." --Lord Dunsany

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