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Thread: Justice League(film)

  1. #16
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    For whatever reason I've grown fascinated by the trainwrecks of the DCEU. Man of Steel, BvsS and Suicide Squad were all three some of the worst big budgeted hollywood films I've ever seen.

    In a strange sort of way, I am looking forward to this. Although I won't catch it in the cinema.

    Also, it's looking like it won't pull as much weight at the box office as was anticipated. At the same time, Ben Affleck is looking to leave the franchise.

    I wonder if Warner will continue along it's set plan or if they will abandon ship, like Universal recently did with their "Dark universe"?

    "I worked in a factory owned by Germans, at coal pits owned by Frenchmen, and at a chemical plant owned by Belgians. There I discovered something about capitalists. They are all alike, whatever the nationality. All they wanted from me was the most work for the least money that kept me alive. So I became a Communist." - Ники́та Серге́евич Хрущёв

    "Thanks for Playa Girón. Before the invasion, the revolution was weak. Now it's stronger than ever". - Che Guevara

  2. #17
    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    I wonder if Warner will continue along it's set plan or if they will abandon ship, like Universal recently did with their "Dark universe"?
    Hmmm...

    Despite the critical mauling that BvS and Suicide Squad got (so extreme that it was clearly an orchestrated pile-on for clickbait purposes), both films made hundreds of millions of dollars and were generally well received by fans (there is some split, but the fans were much more on-side than the critics who were spending an awful lot of time trying to come up with pun-tastic headlines ... yet again for the clickbaity-ness of it all).

    Wonder Woman did really well both critically and commercially. So I don't see Warner making any major changes from the path they're on. Perhaps they'll let Snyder go by the wayside now and bring in some fresh blood behind the camera (Patty Jenkins did an excellent job with WW, for instance). I see that David Ayer also won't be returning for the next Suicide Squad-related movie. So I think it's wise to make adjustments, but not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    The 'Dark Universe' thing is an arse-up unto itself. The DCEU had a 'soft start' with Man of Steel feeling more Iron Man-like in that it was it's own thing and then an Expanded Universe grew out of it (BvS did have the unenviable task of doing a lot of the 'franchise setup' heavy lifting). With "The Mummy" it was really more, as Mark Kermode said, simply "Tom Cruise: The Movie" rather than a new version of The Mummy. Now, I've not seen it to be fair, but I have bugger all interest in actually watching it (beyond the plane crash sequence, anyway). While I really enjoy the Mission: Impossible movies, The Mummy just looks like "Mission: Impossible - Mummy Protocol", if I dare be so flippant. What's more, they were cramming an expanded universe down our throats from the get-go, and one that didn't make an awful lot of sense. While there were a few crossover movies (especially during Hammer's tenure with the characters), it's just not a 'connected universe' type of thing. Marvel and DC most definitely are and always have been - so it makes sense.

    Trying to shove 'expanded universe' onto anything else is a fool's errand. The utter arse-up that is the "Ghost Corps" thing sums that up nicely.

    BTW, I really enjoyed BvS and Suicide Squad. I've only ever seen BvS in it's extended form which, much like Watchmen, feels like it has enough room to breathe to let everything work. BvS undoubtedly bites off more than it can realistically chew, and the finale is too 'big CGI' centric, but I've seen it a couple of times now and it's really good fun (even with the clumsy 'Martha moment'). Suicide Squad takes the notion of a "comic book movie" almost too literally - the structure of its storytelling (especially the telling of backstory), the presentation, etc all feels like the pages of a comic book committed to the silver screen - if that makes sense? It absolutely has problems (yet another 'big CGI' climax, for instance) and its parts are superior to the whole, but again, I've seen it a couple of times thus far and I really enjoy it. Looking forward to a possible Harley Quinn movie, too.
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 19-Nov-2017 at 12:16 PM.

  3. #18
    Chasing Prey shootemindehead's Avatar
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    I've yet to see anyone give me an objective set of reasons why they though 'Batman vs Superman' was awful.

    'Suicide Squad', yes, was a terrible mess of a film. Muddled and incoherrent, with insipid characters in a story that made no sense whatsoever, with a narrative so full of holes it wouldn't get out of a harbour if it were a ship.

    But, 'Batman vs Superman' I thought was an mildly entertaining actioner and certainly not the crisis that some people are trying to make out to be.

    As for the "Dark Universe", that was a bad idea from the start and I could have told Universal that for free.
    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

  4. #19
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    I've yet to see anyone give me an objective set of reasons why they though 'Batman vs Superman' was awful.

    'Suicide Squad', yes, was a terrible mess of a film. Muddled and incoherrent, with insipid characters in a story that made no sense whatsoever, with a narrative so full of holes it wouldn't get out of a harbour if it were a ship.

    But, 'Batman vs Superman' I thought was an mildly entertaining actioner and certainly not the crisis that some people are trying to make out to be.

    As for the "Dark Universe", that was a bad idea from the start and I could have told Universal that for free.
    It featured an irrelevant plot line where the crescendo was a scene where Wonder Woman youtubed "Metahumans".

    Also Batman's entire motivation for killing Superman being unravelled by the mere mention of "Martha" was beyond ridiculous.

    There were pointless nightmare scenes thrown in throughout which did not get explained at all. In fact, in one of them The Flash pops up... For no apparent reason whatsoever.

    Jesse Eisenberg played the most cringeworthy villain I've ever seen. He was horrible. I admit it, this point is subjective.

    BvsJ is objectively a horrible film. Suicide Squad is worse, I agree.

    "I worked in a factory owned by Germans, at coal pits owned by Frenchmen, and at a chemical plant owned by Belgians. There I discovered something about capitalists. They are all alike, whatever the nationality. All they wanted from me was the most work for the least money that kept me alive. So I became a Communist." - Ники́та Серге́евич Хрущёв

    "Thanks for Playa Girón. Before the invasion, the revolution was weak. Now it's stronger than ever". - Che Guevara

  5. #20
    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    It featured an irrelevant plot line where the crescendo was a scene where Wonder Woman youtubed "Metahumans".

    Also Batman's entire motivation for killing Superman being unravelled by the mere mention of "Martha" was beyond ridiculous.

    There were pointless nightmare scenes thrown in throughout which did not get explained at all. In fact, in one of them The Flash pops up... For no apparent reason whatsoever.

    Jesse Eisenberg played the most cringeworthy villain I've ever seen. He was horrible. I admit it, this point is subjective.

    BvsJ is objectively a horrible film.
    1) Not irrelevant. It helps set up Suicide Squad as well as Justice League - in Justice League Bats and Wonder go off searching for those very same "meta humans" to join the Justice League. Much like the WWI photo of Wonder Woman teased her standalone film and provided shading for her character within BvS.

    2) The "Martha moment" is clumsy. I guess the idea is to humanise Superman (for Batman to not just view him as a God who is above feelings and earthly connections), and remind Batman of his own humanity (he's in a very dark, grim, and violent place in BvS, brooding in his cave and flat-out murdering criminals) ... the method of conveying that is eye-rolling and needed to be better, but the reason for it is solid.

    3) Nightmare scenes - the Parademons scene, again, sets up events in Justice League (I've not seen it yet, but I recall there being Parademons on the loose in the trailer). Now, there's an argument to be had about cramming too many of these fragments into BvS as it can get distracting/confusing, but that's a storytelling/structure issue when all things are considered. In and of themselves they're not bad. The Flash appearance, again a set up for Justice League, and I imagine the other side of that sequence will get glimpsed in Justice League (interconnectivity, and all that jazz).

    4) I didn't mind Eisenberg. He felt kind of appropriate for all these "dot com" billionaires, some of whom look/sound/act pretty weird, it's gotta be said.

    5) Nope. Still subjective on your part.
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 19-Nov-2017 at 05:23 PM.

  6. #21
    Chasing Prey shootemindehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    It featured an irrelevant plot line where the crescendo was a scene where Wonder Woman youtubed "Metahumans".

    Also Batman's entire motivation for killing Superman being unravelled by the mere mention of "Martha" was beyond ridiculous.

    There were pointless nightmare scenes thrown in throughout which did not get explained at all. In fact, in one of them The Flash pops up... For no apparent reason whatsoever.

    Jesse Eisenberg played the most cringeworthy villain I've ever seen. He was horrible. I admit it, this point is subjective.

    BvsJ is objectively a horrible film. Suicide Squad is worse, I agree.
    These are all entirely subjective.

    I didn't find the subplot "irrelevant". Awkardly inserted perhaps. But, as mini has said it functions as a lead in for the present film. It is subtitled 'The Dawn of Justice' after all.

    The "Martha" thing is the most overplayed "criticism" of this film, but I don't have an issue with it. Up until that moment, Bruce is blinded by an uncrompromising fear of Superman. A fear that he's admonished for by Alfred. But Bruce is a jaded version of himself here. He's older, tired and Gotham has taken its toll. The mention of Martha simply stops him in his tracks and makes Bruce realise he's been looking at Superman in a skewed manner. It makes him realise that he's been wrong. I really don't get the meltdown that people have over this scene. Crazy stuff.

    Can't say I recall the "nightmare scenes" too much, but they probably didn't bother me.

    I thought Eisenberg was grand as Lex Luthor, who's a pretty shite vilian anyway.

    'Batman vs Superman' has its flaws no doubt, it shouldn't have had any mention of The Justice League and the Doomsday finale felt tacked on, but I've still yet to see anyone come up with objective reasons as to why it's a terrible film. At best, it's usually highly subjective reasoning, that's really a mere matter of taste.

    I thought it was a perfectly servicable comic book movie, no worse than any number of them currently in circulation and probably more entertaining than a lot of them, if I'm honest.
    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

  7. #22
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    There's no excuse to anything "setting up" anything else. Because Marvel does that in an end credits sequence all the time which doesn't affect the plot at all. Wanna pay fan service? Do it in some other way than havinga scene where one of the worst actresses on earth watching Youtube for 5 minutes. The same goes for the nightmare scenes, which I highly doubt get a pay off in Justice League...

    So combined with the Martha schtick, that's three objectively horrible things about BvsJ. And by horrible, I mean: "Something you might want to try out in film school, but not spend 300 million dollars on".

    We'll see about Justice League. I heard they CGI'd Henry Cavill's moustache out.

    "I worked in a factory owned by Germans, at coal pits owned by Frenchmen, and at a chemical plant owned by Belgians. There I discovered something about capitalists. They are all alike, whatever the nationality. All they wanted from me was the most work for the least money that kept me alive. So I became a Communist." - Ники́та Серге́евич Хрущёв

    "Thanks for Playa Girón. Before the invasion, the revolution was weak. Now it's stronger than ever". - Che Guevara

  8. #23
    crackin' eggs of wisdom bassman's Avatar
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    Now that JL is out, some credible insiders have come forward to describe the Snyder/Whedon scenes and different edits the film went through prior to release. As I mentioned before, the film feels a bit disjointed, missing a distinct vision like BVS(like or hate it, it's no doubt one distinctive vision), and if these reports are to be believed, I can see why. Whedon didn't just finish the film after Snyder had to step down, he virtually made an entirely different film, reshooting roughly 60% of it.

    There is a scene-by-scene breakdown available on the net for those that wish to see. It's actually really disheartening to read how much was changed. This is like a repeat of the Donner/Lester situation on Superman 2. Makes me wonder if we'll get a Snyder edit sometime in the future...

  9. #24
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    Now that JL is out, some credible insiders have come forward to describe the Snyder/Whedon scenes and different edits the film went through prior to release. As I mentioned before, the film feels a bit disjointed, missing a distinct vision like BVS(like or hate it, it's no doubt one distinctive vision), and if these reports are to be believed, I can see why. Whedon didn't just finish the film after Snyder had to step down, he virtually made an entirely different film, reshooting roughly 60% of it.

    There is a scene-by-scene breakdown available on the net for those that wish to see. It's actually really disheartening to read how much was changed. This is like a repeat of the Donner/Lester situation on Superman 2. Makes me wonder if we'll get a Snyder edit sometime in the future...
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think a Snyder edit is possible because he didn't finish the film. I think he filmed 80% of it more or less. Whedon did extensive reshoots however. There are even some comparison pics on the internet of a few "before / after" shots where they inserted reshot footage into existing scenes. They look awful.

    Add to that the pictures of Henry Cavill's CGI mouth (sans moustache) and we have yet another clusterfuck in the making. And the producer cutting the film down to less than two hours running time.

    And now it "bombed" (in relative terms) making less than any other DC film in it's opening weekend.

    "I worked in a factory owned by Germans, at coal pits owned by Frenchmen, and at a chemical plant owned by Belgians. There I discovered something about capitalists. They are all alike, whatever the nationality. All they wanted from me was the most work for the least money that kept me alive. So I became a Communist." - Ники́та Серге́евич Хрущёв

    "Thanks for Playa Girón. Before the invasion, the revolution was weak. Now it's stronger than ever". - Che Guevara

  10. #25
    crackin' eggs of wisdom bassman's Avatar
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    From what I've read, Snyder basically did finish his version of the film and had a screening for Warner Brothers so he could explain why he wanted to hire Whedon and ask for extra financing to film these new scenes. They agreed, Whedon had written these additional scenes, but before Snyder went off to film them in England, he had the family tragedy and decided to step down. So essentially Snyder's film was at least in the form of a rough cut.

    Apparently after Snyder was no longer in the picture, WB told Whedon to go even further to make the film even lighter than it was and make it his own.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    watching Youtube for 5 minutes.
    YouTube? I don't recall Wonder Woman/Diana Prince scouring secret documents and videos on YouTube. Nor did the scene go on for 5 minutes. It's pretty brief in the actual film.

    Now that is objective.

  12. #27
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    YouTube? I don't recall Wonder Woman/Diana Prince scouring secret documents and videos on YouTube. Nor did the scene go on for 5 minutes. It's pretty brief in the actual film.

    Now that is objective.
    You get the point. It's a totally stupid scene and totally stupid subplot to begin with.

    God damnit, I hate the incompetence in these films. The complete incomprehension in how to craft a film. Riles me up.

    "I worked in a factory owned by Germans, at coal pits owned by Frenchmen, and at a chemical plant owned by Belgians. There I discovered something about capitalists. They are all alike, whatever the nationality. All they wanted from me was the most work for the least money that kept me alive. So I became a Communist." - Ники́та Серге́евич Хрущёв

    "Thanks for Playa Girón. Before the invasion, the revolution was weak. Now it's stronger than ever". - Che Guevara

  13. #28
    Chasing Prey shootemindehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    There's no excuse to anything "setting up" anything else. Because Marvel does that in an end credits sequence all the time which doesn't affect the plot at all.
    It's a franchise. What do you expect? The film is literally the fledgling moments of the Justice League, the current entry in the series.

    Personally, I didn't mind Wonder Woman's googling. It was neither here or there and certainly not something that fatally holes the ship. Neither is anything else that happens in the film.

    Again, it's just a matter of taste.

    People saying that it's one of the worst films ever made are taking hyperbole to a new level, IMO, especially when there are numerous examples of truly bad films out there.

    It really wasn't that bad a picture and I've seen much, much worse.

    That being said, I am in no rush to see 'The Justice League'.
    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

  14. #29
    crackin' eggs of wisdom bassman's Avatar
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    She didn't search for metahumans on the net, the documents were stolen from Lexcorp by Bruce Wayne, then stolen again by Diana Prince. The entire plot of the movie revolves around Lex hating super powered humans and seeking to destroy them, and the Lexcorp party also served as the beginning of Bruce and Diana's relationship, which is pivotal to this trilogy. Seems like it makes sense with the plot, IMO.

    The knightmare sequence and Barry travelling back in time via the speed force to warn Bruce is a little more confusing for non-comic fans, though. Snyder had planned on following it up in JL, but sadly it appears to have been cut by Whedon. The only real connection now are the parademons.

    They've announced that the Flash's solo movie will now be based on Flashpoint, which will help explain his ability to time travel. It's also an alternate timeline where Bruce Wayne was killed instead of his parents, and his father becomes Batman. Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Batman?? Sign me the f*ck up for that!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    The knightmare sequence and Barry travelling back in time via the speed force to warn Bruce is a little more confusing for non-comic fans, though. Snyder had planned on following it up in JL, but sadly it appears to have been cut by Whedon. The only real connection now are the parademons.

    They've announced that the Flash's solo movie will now be based on Flashpoint, which will help explain his ability to time travel. It's also an alternate timeline where Bruce Wayne was killed instead of his parents, and his father becomes Batman. Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Batman?? Sign me the f*ck up for that!
    1) Bummer. Perhaps Warner Bros. need to be a bit more confident with their DCEU offerings? Maybe we'll get an extended/alternate cut of JL on Blu-Ray? I'd hope so - the extended version of BvS was quite good. The added material in Suicide Squad wasn't as important, but it was welcome nonetheless. I admit that I was quite surprised to see that Justice League was only 120 minutes.

    2) Interesting. And JDM as alternative timeline Batman? Ooh, that'd be cool ... but I wouldn't want it to get too in the way of anything TWD related.

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