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Thread: TWD 7x08 "Hearts Still Beating" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

  1. #46
    Twitching Moon Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Stating Simon could easily replace Negan if Negan was killed ignores the lessons of history,
    Just in the last 30-ish years, when Reagan got shot and his VP was VERY TEMPORARILY unreachable, you already had the Secretary of State making a power-grab that came within centimeters of clusterfucking the entire continuity of government. That was with force of law behind the VP, and a bunch of people sitting safe as houses in one of the most secure structures on Earth during peacetime.

    To say Simon could just "step in" if Negan went down also ignores the fact that Negan is many types of leader to different personality-types within the Saviors. To some the Dread Tyrant, to others the touchstone of their safety and stability, to still others the Mad Hatter Enabler of their Depravity Fun-Ride. There's zero evidence Simon has the kind of flexibility (and in-built savagery/depravity) to just step into all those roles Negan fills. Life as the Competent Lieutenant does NOT prepare one for a sudden by-surprise promotion to the Big Chair. There's also the distinct possibility Negan has in his time used Simon as a proxy-enforcer...and there may well be currents of Simon-hatred running through the Saviors that Simon, unlike Negan, hasn't had the license to brutalize and intimidate out of potential axe-grinders.

    Trin is right. The Saviors will shatter like glass when the day of Negan's fall arrives. Natural human tendency to fall into disarray when the tribe leader falls + Inability of any Negan-subordinates to effectively and in a timely manner emulate his multi-aspect style of dominance-based leadership = Broken Saviors. Some not-insignificant groups may well split into different factions however. Much like the situation which arose after Alexander the Great's demise.
    You could be right. *shrugs*
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  2. #47
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    Or we can skip the narrative and common sense,
    Just looking at TWD in a meta sense, the scriptwriters have never had any use for a group of villains after their leader falls. Just like with the Governor or the Terminians, the minions are only a threat because of the evil guiding hand at the helm. Strip that away and they're just rabid animals with guns.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Or we can skip the narrative and common sense,
    Just looking at TWD in a meta sense, the scriptwriters have never had any use for a group of villains after their leader falls. Just like with the Governor or the Terminians, the minions are only a threat because of the evil guiding hand at the helm. Strip that away and they're just rabid animals with guns.
    Can't argue this.
    Last edited by facestabber; 20-Jan-2017 at 01:31 PM. Reason: spelling

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyldwraith View Post
    Or we can skip the narrative and common sense,
    Just looking at TWD in a meta sense, the scriptwriters have never had any use for a group of villains after their leader falls. Just like with the Governor or the Terminians, the minions are only a threat because of the evil guiding hand at the helm. Strip that away and they're just rabid animals with guns.
    Hmmm ... I wouldn't be so quick to say that'll happen this time around.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    Hmmm ... I wouldn't be so quick to say that'll happen this time around.
    Steven Ogg just promoted series regular perhaps or you thinking something else.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by facestabber View Post
    Steven Ogg just promoted series regular perhaps or you thinking something else.
    I wasn't aware that Steven Ogg was bumped up to a regular - although that makes me happy as I enjoy his character and performance in the show.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    I wasn't aware that Steven Ogg was bumped up to a regular - although that makes me happy as I enjoy his character and performance in the show.
    Damn right, man, Simon is awesome.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  8. #53
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    When dissecting probabilities one can only be informed by preexisting trends. There are other factors (such as the likelihood or not of the writers breaking their own established convention)...but, end of the day, if you're going predictive you can go with what you know, and maybe put a little intuitive english on your read. All else is speculation. Data-bits we get access to otherwise "in vacuum" often don't mean what we think they mean. Hell, look at the theory-crafting that's gone one with GoT. Exactly how many times did the different factions talk themselves blue, until they were defending the opposite position they began defending concerning John Snow?

    Blindsides are a thing, but I believe in the new and groundbreaking when I see it as a rule.

  9. #54
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    Bit of thread necromancy,
    I'm OK with Negan having a "miraculous escape" like Rosita's shot going astray...but IMHO Negan has long since exhausted his share of improbable close shaves. He faces down a Rick armed with a hatchet at close range with a low-caliber automatic weapon completely lacking the stopping power required to prevent Rick burying that hatchet in Negan's head before Rick went down. Carl took a shot, and managed to utterly flub his assassination attempt despite his target being less than ten feet away. THEN Rosita's shot went astray.

    To say that Negan has been living a charmed existence is the understatement of understatements. It really feels contrived to me. As I've said many times before, Negan puts himself out there without significant Savior support on a regular basis. An edged weapon drenched in Walker viscera would be the end of him with a mere scratch. The front of the Savior compound has Walkers all over it. We've seen there ARE individuals amongst the Saviors who despise Negan, and he tends to give cleanup jobs to people on his shit list. It frankly beggars belief that no one has pushed a shiv into a Walker, then taken a stab at Negan with it.

    The thing about successful tyrants is they create situations where people lose hope, often for good. Someone with nothing to lose and a belly full of hate is very, very dangerous. Yet Negan's casual, ever at ease manner is completely at odds with the reality of how fragile the man really is. He allows people to walk within arm's reach regularly...if even 1% of the Saviors want Negan dead badly enough to not care what happens after they've brought him down, statistics say there would have been such attempts. Even if those attempts happened in the past and all failed, we'd see some sign of Negan being conscious of his mortality by the exhibition of reasonable caution on his part. We don't see any sign of such.

    Negan is different than the other chief villains TWD has showcased in that at no time does he ever seem personally vulnerable in a meaningful way. That creates something of a caricature IMHO.

  10. #55
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    Negan is awesome.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

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