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Thread: TWD 8x01 "Mercy" episode discussion... **SPOILERS*

  1. #31
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Infact, them not shooting Negan, and instead using a huge amount of valuable ammo on teaching a window a lesson, is almost "jumping the shark" for me...

    I hope it's a blip, and not a trend!
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Infact, them not shooting Negan, and instead using a huge amount of valuable ammo on teaching a window a lesson, is almost "jumping the shark" for me...

    I hope it's a blip, and not a trend!
    It was goofy. But this show has historically bounced between ammo starved and ammo abundent. It's a convenience thing for the writers. One way to look at it, and yes I struggle typing the following. Shooting out the windows will do nothing to Negan Simon or the other hardened Saviours. But the meek and timid inside the Sanctuary have probably never felt an offensive attack that literally drove up to the front door. Realistically the skeptics inside may be frightened enough to start whispering about Negans antics and quit honestly the shit living conditions for many inside. Maybe I stretched there but I think there could be some reality in that.

  3. #33
    Twitching Moon Knight's Avatar
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    Also to be fair, Negan could have just killed everyone and ended everything from the start.

    I learned to suspend my disbelief with this show a long time ago. They have written worse haha.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes, the shooting the windows was a bit cringe. It played out better in the book because you can actually see the glass hitting Negan.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? Ö the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Knight View Post
    Yes, the shooting the windows was a bit cringe. It played out better in the book because you can actually see the glass hitting Negan.
    There's a comparison between the Season 8 premiere and the events in the comic.

    https://www.skybound.com/the-walking...how-vs-comics/

    The glass shooting is mentioned - in the comics it is to attract walkers in the area. Now, being that the Daryl explosion-o-rama was added (a more effective and organised way of drawing them in the show), it's almost pointless, but I suppose it's to draw the nearby walkers the final step of the way. So there is a purpose to it. I'd forgotten about this in the comics (it's been a while since I read "All Out War", after all).

    Perhaps we miss things on first viewing, perhaps some things could be better explained/set up in the show ... ... certainly, it would have been nice to see Negan get sliced up by the falling glass a bit.

    As for ammo, well, a full clip is most of what was spent by any one shooter. I presume they raided the various guards etc that they took down for extra ammo in addition to all the stuff they've got from elsewhere (including the downed Saviours at the Season 7 finale shootout in Alexandria).

    Interesting that, in the comics, Rick & Co rock up and stand way out in the open - whereas in the show they've got their mobile cover all set up. Weird, then, that they didn't afford the same logic to Negan. I get that Negan's a braggard and over confident, but even still, clearly it's too much of a disparity - and too much of a distraction to the audience - so it should have been covered.

    Also, thinking about it further, the meeting at the Sanctuary is kind of a last ditch attempt to avoid a war - people on both sides will die. Rick knows it'll be war, as does Negan (neither will back down), but Rick has to give peace a chance before leaping into all out war. Of course, the whole 'drawing the walkers' plan kind of goes against this mindset ... so in adapting the comic there's been some improvements and some changes, but in doing so there's also been some inconsistencies or muddied water written in. I suppose this is the inevitable problem with adapting something - you can't follow the source material exactly as they're two different mediums, but everything you change has a butterfly effect.
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 3 Weeks Ago at 05:34 PM.

  5. #35
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    That’s pretty much how I read it. Rick gave everyone a chance to surrender with the exception of Negan. This scene played out exactly how it was in the comic so maybe that’s why it didn’t bother me as much. Jesus proclaiming that the Hilltop stands with Maggie was a bit of an improvement too.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? Ö the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  6. #36
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMuawGIomE

    Bit of red carpet vox poppin' from the cast and crew - a couple of take aways from there: 1) Eugene is on "team Eugene", and 2) Nicotero confirming what Gimple has previously said in terms of storytelling structure compared to previous seasons: bottle episodes are out. We're going to be checking in with almost all of these characters every single episode.

    I'm really looking forward to seeing how All Out War develops over the course of the season (I'm assuming Season 8A will be dedicated to it ... then might we get a time jump leading into Season 8B perhaps?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Knight View Post
    Thatís pretty much how I read it. Rick gave everyone a chance to surrender with the exception of Negan. This scene played out exactly how it was in the comic so maybe thatís why it didnít bother me as much. Jesus proclaiming that the Hilltop stands with Maggie was a bit of an improvement too.
    It gave me tingles. Now, in the comic there were some who stepped forward for Gregory/Negan IIRC, so with that not happening in the show I wonder how it'll effect certain plot points further down the line (or perhaps they'll deal with that particular aspect in a more streamlined manner but still with the same general journey).

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    The glass shooting is mentioned - in the comics it is to attract walkers in the area.
    One or two guns firing, wouldn't achieve the same? Glass shattering somehow does?
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    One or two guns firing, wouldn't achieve the same? Glass shattering somehow does?
    I think it's to make a big enough noise for long enough. You don't want your herd getting distracted so near the target, you want them to be moving en masse straight where you want them to go. Daryl led them most of the way, the gunfire was the last step of guidance.

    Perhaps it could have been better explained in the show?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    I think it's to make a big enough noise for long enough. You don't want your herd getting distracted so near the target, you want them to be moving en masse straight where you want them to go. Daryl led them most of the way, the gunfire was the last step of guidance.

    Perhaps it could have been better explained in the show?
    I also would have thought shooting all those bullets into Negan (instead of a window) would also have accomplished a similar - if not better - outcome
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    I also would have thought shooting all those bullets into Negan (instead of a window) would also have accomplished a similar - if not better - outcome
    Those windows were a much bigger threat than Negan, they needed to go, and pronto!

  11. #41
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    Just reading how the internet is reacting to Negan’s plot armor, here’s something to think about. Not spoiling anything but this is mainly recommended for those that read the comic. So please don’t read if you’re a tv show only fan.

     
    If people are upset now, I’m curious on how they will react for how this war will end.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? Ö the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  12. #42
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    Mildly entertaining, but silly.

    One shot, Negan dead, war over.

    That hole can be filled by simply having Negan talk to Rick from behind cover.

    FFS, this shit is easy. Why do the writers make so hard on themselves?
    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

  13. #43
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    Did anyone catch the callback to Shane? It's when Negan says "Let me ask you something, Rick."

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Knight View Post
    Just reading how the internet is reacting to Negan’s plot armor, here’s something to think about. Not spoiling anything but this is mainly recommended for those that read the comic. So please don’t read if you’re a tv show only fan.

     
    If people are upset now, I’m curious on how they will react for how this war will end.
    Moon - I've been thinking the same thing.

    Suffice it to say, though, the landscape going forward will be different to the previous norm.

    Shoot - exactly. A simple line or two in the script would have solved the complaint before it was even filmed - and it would have been interesting to see Negan kind of cowering behind cover after having been so ballsy in previous encounters (although that, in itself, would be inconsistent with recent events). In the comic he's out there in the open - as are Rick and his squad of Alexandria/Hilltop/Kingdom dwellers - so everyone's exposed. A few tweaks could have unmuddied the water a smidge.

    Their script editor could do with 'being the audience' a bit more, if that makes sense? To try and observe certain scenes or decisions from the perspective of a viewer who has either not read the comics or who has read this story long ago but forgotten much of the detail, and to generally tighten some plausibility gaps. Kirkman's comic takes flights of fancy or shows certain actions that simply would never fly in the tv show.
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:44 AM.

  14. #44
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    The problem is that they really want to capture the images from the page and translate them as accurate as possible to the show. No one ever said anything when these scenes played out years ago but I guess live action is a different medium. Funny thing is they actually improved on it by having Rick and the group create cover and stand behind it. Originally everyone is out in the open.

    In short, I agree, I wouldn’t have Negan just stand out in the open like that. It doesn’t bother me as much but I get why people wouldn’t like that.

    MZ, it’s a shame. This episode has so many homages and Easter Eggs but all fans are talking about is how Rick didn’t shoot Negan haha.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? Ö the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    Shoot - exactly. A simple line or two in the script would have solved the complaint before it was even filmed - and it would have been interesting to see Negan kind of cowering behind cover after having been so ballsy in previous encounters (although that, in itself, would be inconsistent with recent events). In the comic he's out there in the open - as are Rick and his squad of Alexandria/Hilltop/Kingdom dwellers - so everyone's exposed. A few tweaks could have unmuddied the water a smidge.
    I can't recall how it went down in the comic, but static panels don't betray stupidity in the way that film will. People fill in a lot of blanks with comic art as a necessity, but with the motion of film you don't have to and the sortcomings of such a scene is blatant.

    Even if Negan had been talking to Rick surrounded by more "innocent" characters, it would have made better sense. Rick wouldn't have wanted to open fire, lest he scupper his plan to only off Negan and engender some sort of negotiable existance with the Saviours thereafter. Or perhaps, just have the door simply open and Negan's words come from inside the cabin. The scene plays out pretty much the same, but isn't a s dumb.

    But, as it is, it just looks silly. Every single person watching that episode is shouting SHOOT HIM NOW!!! at the screen.

    Why can't the writers see that, or the director for matter?

    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    Their script editor could do with 'being the audience' a bit more, if that makes sense? To try and observe certain scenes or decisions from the perspective of a viewer who has either not read the comics or who has read this story long ago but forgotten much of the detail, and to generally tighten some plausibility gaps. Kirkman's comic takes flights of fancy or shows certain actions that simply would never fly in the tv show.
    It makes perfect sense and I find it impossible that nobody concerned spoke up and at least questioned that scene's logic failure? Nobody? When everybody in the audience would have?

    They get crucified online and in other media, and these kind of "plausibility gaps" can be closed in a second of discussion. It's terribly frustrating and they really do chip away at the credibility of the show. It's a PITA. I get excited for 'The Walking Dead' each year and then they something really dumb like this and I have to question why I stick with it, when I've let other shows go for less.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Knight View Post
    The problem is that they really want to capture the images from the page and translate them as accurate as possible to the show.
    But they've abandoned that angle long time ago, when they went off in their own direction. There's a ton of different plot lines, scenarios, characters and relationships going on now.
    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

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