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Thread: TWD 8x08 "How It's Gotta Be" episode discussion... **SPOILERS*

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Knight View Post
    People complain about the show having more commercials now than ever. (It doesn’t.) They complain when things drag or when an episode ends with a cliffhanger, if it’s too slow, too much action, ect. I wonder if TWD was released as a whole instead of weekly will people think different of it? Maybe.

    It’s all good though I’m still enjoying it but because the show is still huge all the negative stuff makes the headlines; almost as if it’s the only show that has imperfections behind and in front of the cameras.

    The Whisperers has a chance to change the pace and feel of the show in a good way but I will say this, the writers have to drop the moral compass storylines already. Please.
    Yeah, sometimes the complaints make absolutely zero sense, or are thrown up onto Twitter with such pissyness or exaggeration that they have no credence to them. There are certainly legitimate criticisms to be made, but some of the things you read on social media are eye-rollingly dunderheaded or, as you say, damn TWD for failings that occur (sometimes to far greater degrees) on a whole host of other shows.

    There's a meme out there that breaks down the structure of an episode, with large portions marked 'nothing happens' or 'boring' or whatever, which is another exaggeration. It's bizarre what some people will say about any given episode, especially when they write it off as 'nothing happened' when the episode was utterly chock-full of stuff happening. The complainers whined that there wasn't enough action in Season 7, now in Season 8 there's too much.

    Certainly there's still a pacing issue in-so-far as the overall plot needs to be moving faster than it currently is simply because the week-to-week viewing format makes everything feel slower. Hours for the characters translates into weeks for us viewers, so that balance needs to be struck better. However, when watched in a binge session in your own time frame these episodes often play out better because you don't have to wait. Netflix and binge-watching in general have spoiled us viewers somewhat, but each method has their own respective strengths and weaknesses.

    Anyway, I've written as many of my thoughts about where TWD currently is at, trying to cover as many aspects from different angles as reasonable as possible over here:
    https://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2017...provement.html

  2. #32
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Sorry, I'm just finding this show more and more contrived. ie: People doing odd things which just come across as poor writing/directing for me

    The number of times people don't shoot other people when given the chance for example!? eg: The chance for a sniper taking out Negan over and over!


    I can feel my enjoyment of the show significantly reducing TBH! Indeed, if the next half of the season is like the first, I can imagine myself losing the will. Yes, the writing/directing is grating on me that much now!
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

  3. #33
    Twitching Moon Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Sorry, I'm just finding this show more and more contrived. ie: People doing odd things which just come across as poor writing/directing for me

    The number of times people don't shoot other people when given the chance for example!? eg: The chance for a sniper taking out Negan over and over!


    I can feel my enjoyment of the show significantly reducing TBH! Indeed, if the next half of the season is like the first, I can imagine myself losing the will. Yes, the writing/directing is grating on me that much now!
    Yeah, that’s a fair criticism. They writers really paint themselves into that corner.

    I just want the show to make some tweaks and improve on that structure. They have at least five areas that need addressing but as a fan I want to support it and stick around for the ride. Only way I see myself dropping TWD is if they kill Rick. It’s his story.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  4. #34
    Chasing Prey shootemindehead's Avatar
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    Yeh. Not sure what to make of that midway ending. Carl getting bit raised an eyebrow, but I don't really care?

    Other stuff going down was ok, but I dunno. I've no real reaction at the moment?

    Over all, it was a decent 8 episodes I spose, despite the dodgy start. But, yep, there needs to be some more gritty realism injected into the show as a whole. The plot armour for some folk is bloody awful.
    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

  5. #35
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    The plot armour for some folk is bloody awful.
    LOL! Classic phrase!

    I was watching the Family Guy Star Wars episode, and in the section where the Millenium Falcon was flying through the asteroid field and Leia was suggesting the ship might blow up at any second. Han's reply was, there's four major cast members on this ship, we'll be fine!
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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    Twitching Moon Knight's Avatar
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    They lost viewers when Abe and Glenn were killed off and now Carl’s death has every single clickbait site spreading negativity like the plague. I’ve had tons of family and friends sending me the reports constantly- “Hey, is this true? Is The Walking Dead dying?” I’m like “”No, they just killed off a character and people got mad.”

    Because of this Daryl is never dying.
    Last edited by Moon Knight; 15-Dec-2017 at 12:29 AM. Reason: Grrr
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  7. #37
    Just been bitten zomtom's Avatar
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    I have to admit I have turned a lot of friends and relatives on to The Walking Dead. We've been enjoying discussions for years. Some of those viewers have already left the show and a number of others are talking about leaving . They say, it's become the "same-o-same-o". It's hard to argue with them. There's always a new villain to take on, and there is just too much of the living killing each other. Seriously; the vast majority of humanity is dead and walking. Killing the living is just plain stupid. And no offense but the damned zombies have just become a nuisance. I'm with this show until the end but there are a lot of people who get pissed off when a character they have learned to love is killed. Gimple and his philosophy of "no one is safe", is going to kill this show. Many of their viewers are NOT zombie enthusiasts and they're not willing to stay until the final episode. Personally, I wish AMC would replace Gimple. I think it's time.

  8. #38
    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
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    With complaints of "oh it's the same old conflict again", I can't help but shake my head, because quite simply it isn't like the conflicts we've had before. What came before were mere skirmishes between small groups - All Out War is like the World War II of the TWD universe, and what comes after is different to the 'find another place to hang out and start again' routine that we saw after the farm and after the prison.

    Regarding "just kill Negan already!" complainers (comics spoilers post-AOW):
     
    They're going to be pissed off, because he doesn't get killed in the comics. His survival is, indeed, a major part of the new direction of the TWD society in the wake of All Out War - they're rebuilding a world, interconnected communities, a new society, and part of that new society is some form of law and order - put simply, Negan's imprisonment. They're re-establishing the human world. It's part of exactly why this conflict isn't like the ones that have come before.


    Frankly, the whine of "it's the same old thing" feels rather lazy to me. Plus, if you're not fighting people you're fighting zombies and if you're fighting neither then it'd just be sixteen hours of people farming and have a lie in.
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 15-Dec-2017 at 10:53 AM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    With complaints of "oh it's the same old conflict again", I can't help but shake my head, because quite simply it isn't like the conflicts we've had before. What came before were mere skirmishes between small groups - All Out War is like the World War II of the TWD universe, and what comes after is different to the 'find another place to hang out and start again' routine that we saw after the farm and after the prison.

    Regarding "just kill Negan already!" complainers (comics spoilers post-AOW):
     
    They're going to be pissed off, because he doesn't get killed in the comics. His survival is, indeed, a major part of the new direction of the TWD society in the wake of All Out War - they're rebuilding a world, interconnected communities, a new society, and part of that new society is some form of law and order - put simply, Negan's imprisonment. They're re-establishing the human world. It's part of exactly why this conflict isn't like the ones that have come before.


    Frankly, the whine of "it's the same old thing" feels rather lazy to me. Plus, if you're not fighting people you're fighting zombies and if you're fighting neither then it'd just be sixteen hours of people farming and have a lie in.
    On point.

    As much as I’m kinda tired of the current storyline, I think that comes down to a few things but most importantly, one; I already read this story years ago and two; I really can’t wait for what comes after.

    The last couple of storylines weren’t translated well imo due to the writers having the need to have our characters all over the place having multiple storylines instead of having everyone together. “No Way Out” and “All Out War” respectively.

    The next story cannot do this. It won’t work.

    Carol to me has felt ostracized from everyone. Morgan too.

    Anyway, I have lots of pet peeves but overall I rather have TWD on than not having TWD exist in my world. I always look forward to it.

    Also, I wouldn’t say fire Gimple just yet. I do believe AMC has lots to do with the show’s current negativity. We don’t know the correct details. I’m sure one day we will.

    Remember they did the same thing to Andrea and that wasn’t Gimple.
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

  10. #40
    Dead facestabber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    With complaints of "oh it's the same old conflict again", I can't help but shake my head, because quite simply it isn't like the conflicts we've had before. What came before were mere skirmishes between small groups - All Out War is like the World War II of the TWD universe, and what comes after is different to the 'find another place to hang out and start again' routine that we saw after the farm and after the prison.

    Regarding "just kill Negan already!" complainers (comics spoilers post-AOW):
     
    They're going to be pissed off, because he doesn't get killed in the comics. His survival is, indeed, a major part of the new direction of the TWD society in the wake of All Out War - they're rebuilding a world, interconnected communities, a new society, and part of that new society is some form of law and order - put simply, Negan's imprisonment. They're re-establishing the human world. It's part of exactly why this conflict isn't like the ones that have come before.


    Frankly, the whine of "it's the same old thing" feels rather lazy to me. Plus, if you're not fighting people you're fighting zombies and if you're fighting neither then it'd just be sixteen hours of people farming and have a lie in.
    From my perspective on forums and friends and family, the "same ole same ole" isn't a whine. It's a voice that has progressively become louder and louder. This perseption is a reality for a growing number. I think it's worth respecting. I can't get my wife to watch anymore. Not because a favorite character has died but she is just bored with it. The ratings are saying something, I hope TPTB hear it and plan the end game.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by facestabber View Post
    From my perspective on forums and friends and family, the "same ole same ole" isn't a whine. It's a voice that has progressively become louder and louder. This perseption is a reality for a growing number. I think it's worth respecting. I can't get my wife to watch anymore. Not because a favorite character has died but she is just bored with it. The ratings are saying something, I hope TPTB hear it and plan the end game.
    I still think the "same old same old" complaint is misplaced. The conflict has been different this time to any prior conflict, the scale is far larger, and the linking of various communities makes it an entirely different dynamic as well. Perhaps the show could be telegraphing the 'different intent' a bit better, but comics readers know that it isn't the "same old same old" this time around, which is why it's frustrating to hear that complaint ... it's a bit impatient, for lack of a better word.

    There are certainly things that need to be fixed/changed/improved (some of which I laid out in my blog post that I linked to a few posts back), and Moon, you also make some good points: e.g. the breaking apart of the group. I imagine some of that is down to everyone's different schedules, and some will be down to wanting to help ground other new groups with familiar faces (e.g. Carol and Morgan at The Kingdom), which I think made sense, but yes, I would like Carol to come back into the main fold more often if possible.

    I'm still split right down the middle on bumping off Carl, but as you say Moon, a world with TWD is far better than one without. I just hope that they tidy up all the things they've slipped up on (some of those things are mistakes they didn't used to make, as well, which makes it all the more frustrating), but I do find it grating that the vocal complainers out there are so obsessed with the bad that they're utterly ignored all the good. The viewers need to give it a fair and balanced shot, and the makers of the show likewise need to realign their sights with fair and balanced adjustments.

  12. #42
    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    On the subject of writing/directing - I compared today the revelation of Carl's impending situation, with The Man In the High Castle and John Smith finding out about his son. What a world of difference in the stomach punch effect etc. One seemed like a punch on the arm, while the other was basically tear inducing!

    Anyhoo... Maybe it's just me!
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    On the subject of writing/directing - I compared today the revelation of Carl's impending situation, with The Man In the High Castle and John Smith finding out about his son. What a world of difference in the stomach punch effect etc. One seemed like a punch on the arm, while the other was basically tear inducing!

    Anyhoo... Maybe it's just me!
    I've not seen The Man In The High Castle, so I can't personally compare. Although I will say that Andrew Lincoln brought a wonderful 'quietness' to the moment of realisation. Utterly helpless and speechless as the weight begins to press on him, the realisation begins to take hold. It didn't need to be a big reaction, but I trust we'll see more in 6x09 when it actually happens.

    Some shit might be going down in 8B, too - he's got that murderin' jacket on.

    Which reminds me of something, it would be a good move to have more time pass between episodes because the past few seasons have been over a matter of months, or up to a year, but in that time we've seen summer/autumn like four times, simply because of their shooting schedule (so you get the sweaty "it's so hot" stuff, then people are rocking about in jackets). I know that weather can change within a season and you can go from shorts to trousers multiple times potentially, but still, it'd be nice to bring a bit more of a realistic cycle of time.

    Thinking about it, I would like to see an episode or two take place during winter. I know it wouldn't be like in the comics with major snowfall (Georgia doesn't really get much, if any, right? Although they are now in Virginia IIRC - is it any different there climate wise?) You know, just a couple of episodes in that context would be an interesting change of pace visually (frozen walkers iced up on the ground?), and then move forward in time and see more changes in terms of the world around the characters - and move the overall story forward at a similar pace.

    I think we've had plenty of the 'condensed time frame' approach now. We've fixed the pacing of individual episodes and have avoided too many 'bottle' episodes, or "all the focus on this one place" episodes, but we could now do with fixing the overall time frame in how events are paced (rather than hours, let's have days or weeks, maybe even months, between/during individual episodes). I think that would help free up storytelling possibilites.

  14. #44
    Chasing Prey shootemindehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post

    Regarding "just kill Negan already!" complainers (comics spoilers post-AOW):

    That's not really the point though Mini.

    It's the scenes where people have an obvious chance to kill him - even after espousing that they want to kill him - and then don't that's drawing the "Kill Negan" fire.

    It's irritating and, frankly, a bit insulting to the viewer.

    The answer - don't write those scenes.

    I know what happens to Negan in the comics. But I'm still annoyed by having him repeatedly stay alive in the face of an obvious opportunity for his death.
    I'm runnin' this monkey farm now Frankenstein.....

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    That's not really the point though Mini.

    It's the scenes where people have an obvious chance to kill him - even after espousing that they want to kill him - and then don't that's drawing the "Kill Negan" fire.

    It's irritating and, frankly, a bit insulting to the viewer.

    The answer - don't write those scenes.

    I know what happens to Negan in the comics. But I'm still annoyed by having him repeatedly stay alive in the face of an obvious opportunity for his death.
    I have to agree. The smallest of tweaks can fix scenes like that too.

    On the other end, how many of Rick’s people could Negan have killed by now and didn’t?

    In my mind, and the way it is written, honestly, Negan comes across as the good guy while Rick and the others kill on sight.
    Last edited by Moon Knight; 16-Dec-2017 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Tweak
    "That's the deal, right? The people who are living have it harder, right? … the whole world is haunted now and there's no getting out of that, not until we're dead."

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