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Thread: So which Night film is canon to George's series, original or remake?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Clearly not, as indicated by Rickles and Steele's surprise at the start of the film. They are only now beginning to realize.
    That's because they have just come back from exploring the coast, an area that they probably did not explore before. They obviously have been to other places and also found no signs of life, otherwise the "another waste of time, right?" remark by one of the soldiers when they come back from this chopper expedition would not make any sense. They do realize very well how bad things have gotten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    ElectricFire169 - haha, you're stirred something up here. But it's nice to dig into some Romero chat again.



    Indeed, their emotional outbursts and incapability clearly suggests this is all new to them. The people in Land have all got used to the idea quite considerably and are living with the problem (one of Romero's biggest intentions with that film - to show mankind 'stepping over' the problem). It makes no sense for Land to come before Day for that reason alone - not to mention the myriad other reasons laid out before in this thread.
    Yes, so "used" to it that one of the main characters in that movie actually has to ask info about what exactly happens when a person gets bitten by a zombie! That would be unthinkable in the world of Day, where everyone still alive is already very familiar with the zombies and what happens when you get bitten by one. And no, you don't need a PhD to know that simple basic fact, which is now very necessary for everyday survival. Peter in Dawn, for example, did not need a scientific study to know this basic fact, he learnt it from simply having come in contact with the zombies and seeing what their bites do to people. That Flyboy and Fran still don't know this basic fact and need Peter to inform them about it is excusable in that movie since the zombie crisis has not been going on for very long yet and they have only recently started to come in contact with the zombies. That by itself already, without taking into account all of the other observations that have been made in this thread, shows it makes little sense to think that the clearly less devastated world of Land can possibly come after the total collapse of society and more decayed world that we plainly see in Day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ElectricFire169 View Post
    Whoa, what did I miss?

    Just to go back briefly to the subject of the differences between Night and Diary, I think the films are all meant to be considered as happening "in the near future" and hence they're portrayed as having technology that would have been available to them at the time of the making of the film, rather than being a literal linear progression. That's how they can have analogue TVs in Night but digital cameras in Diary, imo. They're not meant to be set in a particular time period, they're just generally about "the end".
    Yes, but many people still have a problem with Diary taking place simultaneously as the events in Night, which is what Romero himself suggested. This problem could have been more easily overlooked if Diary did not make technology itself one of the central plot elements. The movie in fact revolves much around portable video cameras, personal computers & the internet, things totally absent in the world of Night. It is just too difficult for many people to simply overlook this very notable difference between both worlds.
    Last edited by JDP; 20-Feb-2018 at 02:59 AM. Reason: ;

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    That's because they have just come back from exploring the coast, an area that they probably did not explore before.
    Dude... They're in Florida. What the fuck man, these mental gymnastics should earn you a gold medal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Dude... They're in Florida. What the fuck man, these mental gymnastics should earn you a gold medal.
    Look at a map of Florida. Does it look to you that it does not have any areas without coast? How do we know where the bunker is located? It could be miles inland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Look at a map of Florida. Does it look to you that it does not have any areas without coast? How do we know where the bunker is located? It could be miles inland.
    They went a 100 miles up each way.
    No place in Florida is a 100 miles from any coast to begin with.
    In fact, much of Florida is coast.

    Anyway, minutae detail... The film clearly shows the soldiers not being aware of their situation around them, regardless of where they are.

    I think that what makes the film so great. It depicts the realization of doom. They realize the world they've come to know is at an end. There's no more hierarchy, the government's fallen. They're left to their own devices and all the things people count on as security are gone. Desperation sets in.

    Man, I gotta rewatch this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    They went a 100 miles up each way.
    Yes, but the location of the bunker could be in central Florida, still many miles away from any coast.

    In fact, much of Florida is coast.
    Yes, and much of it is also not coastal.

    Anyway, minutae detail... The film clearly shows the soldiers not being aware of their situation around them, regardless of where they are.

    I think that what makes the film so great. It depicts the realization of doom. They realize the world they've come to know is at an end. There's no more hierarchy, the government's fallen. They're left to their own devices and all the things people count on as security are gone. Desperation sets in.

    Man, I gotta rewatch this.
    Further evidence that they have been exploring other areas before:

    "Forget it, Billy boy. It's a dead place, LIKE ALL THE OTHERS, you know."

    The movie shows well that they are aware that things have gotten very bad: communications with Washington down, no one within range of their persistent radio messages (sent both from their base and from the helicopter while they are exploring) responds, no signs of human life anywhere they have been to, more and more zombies at their doors everyday... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Yes, but the location of the bunker could be in central Florida, still many miles away from any coast.
    Considering the geography of Florida... That would be a highly unlikely assumption.

    But I digress. It doesn't matter anyway. The characters make clear that they're not aware of what scenario is developing around them.
    You may disagree with this, if you will, but it is nonetheless exposition given in the film.
    Last edited by EvilNed; 21-Feb-2018 at 12:14 PM. Reason: sdfsdfsd

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    Not sure how searching Florida has much to do with 'Land before Day' ... I've lost the plot here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Considering the geography of Florida... That would be a highly unlikely assumption.

    But I digress. It doesn't matter anyway. The characters make clear that they're not aware of what scenario is developing around them.
    You may disagree with this, if you will, but it is nonetheless exposition given in the film.
    Once again, such remarks as "another waste of time, right?", "it's a dead place, like all the others, you know", "I wanna know if you're doing something that's gonna help us out of this deep shit we're in", "they have overrun us, you know? We're in the minority now. Something like four hundred thousand to one, by my calculations", pretty much shows these guys know that things have gotten very bad. I don't know where you are getting this idea from that they don't know what's happening. It is not what the movie shows. They are very well aware of the situation and how bad it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    Not sure how searching Florida has much to do with 'Land before Day' ... I've lost the plot here.
    Because it shows these guys are in fact well aware of how bad things have gotten, and they have not confined themselves to other people's reports (back when the media and long-distance communications were still up) but have also done some investigations of their own, which confirm that things are indeed very bad and there appear to be hardly much people left, or at least living on the surface. The counter-argument is trying to make these guys look like they are clueless about what's going on outside the confines of the bunker (which would also imply that they could know nothing about what's going on up there in Pennsylvania), but that's hardly the case. Besides the previous frequent communications with Washington, they have also been actively exploring and sending radio signals as far as they can. They have not been sitting idle and blindly speculating about things. But this counter-argument is nil even if the people in the bunker had really just sat idly doing nothing, because even the MEDIA had already reported the existence of the outposts early on during the zombie crisis. There just is no way that they could not have known about them.
    Last edited by JDP; 22-Feb-2018 at 06:55 AM. Reason: ;

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Once again, such remarks as "another waste of time, right?", "it's a dead place, like all the others, you know", "I wanna know if you're doing something that's gonna help us out of this deep shit we're in", "they have overrun us, you know? We're in the minority now. Something like four hundred thousand to one, by my calculations", pretty much shows these guys know that things have gotten very bad. I don't know where you are getting this idea from that they don't know what's happening. It is not what the movie shows. They are very well aware of the situation and how bad it is.
    Absolutely, they're frustrated. But the film explicitly shows that they're not aware of the scope things have. Frankensteins estimations and the fact that they were clearly expecting the helicopter recon to lead to something show that they're not aware.

    Again, the film explicitly shows this. In fact, it's what the film is about.
    Last edited by EvilNed; 22-Feb-2018 at 10:51 AM. Reason: fdsfsdfs

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Absolutely, they're frustrated. But the film explicitly shows that they're not aware of the scope things have. Frankensteins estimations and the fact that they were clearly expecting the helicopter recon to lead to something show that they're not aware.

    Again, the film explicitly shows this. In fact, it's what the film is about.
    Who says they all are necessarily expecting anything positive? Of the two soldiers who make comments on the latest helicopter recon, one sounds surprised they found nothing, the other one wasn't surprised at all. The helicopter pilot is another guy who obviously has pretty much lost all hope too. He thinks the whole thing they are doing there is nuts, he just wants out, they should just go spend the remaining days they have on an island somewhere, isolated from the mainland. Miguel is having a nervous break-down about the whole thing. The radio man is also nervous as hell, and not just because they have found nothing with their helicopter searches, but also because of the "dead air" everywhere (plus the soldiers are pressuring him to re-establish communications with anyone), and tries to calm down with loads of booze. Sarah tries to keep a more positive and hopeful attitude. But whether hopeful or not, these guys are doing what they are doing because there is little else they can do but to look for signs of anyone else left alive.

    Frankenstein's estimations sound very doomy, certainly not hopeful at all for mankind. And by all we see and can deduce from the movie, he's certainly on the right track. Things look ghastly. More so than in Land, where there's still very large numbers of people thriving on the surface.
    Last edited by JDP; 23-Feb-2018 at 07:49 AM. Reason: ;

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Who says they all are necessarily expecting anything positive?
    The scene implies they did.

    Anyway, moving on. We'll never agree on this.

    In my mind, Day takes place around 6-8 months into it all. Maybe up to a year even. It depicts a small group of researchers who have been set up by the military, in isolation, to study and try to find a cure or solution to the zombie question. Slowly, but surely, they lose men. They started out with 18 and are now down to 12 persons. They're corrall of zombies is dwindling and they are running out of time and hope. They are beginning to realize that perhaps it is futile to try to solve this thing. Perhaps it's better to try to survive.

    On the other hand, Land depicts a society which has done just that. It's moved on. It's beyond trying to solve the issue. It's just trying to survive. As mentioned in dialogue in the film it's 3+ years into it and obviously people have adapted to a new way of life.

    It's clear as crystal to me which one takes place before the other. But I'm glad there can be disagreements among observers and I'm also aware that it's up to the viewer to decide which is which - even if Romero intended for it to be Day > Land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    even if Romero intended for it to be Day > Land.
    Aye. At no point whatsoever in the lead up to, nor time since (up to his death), the film being made, was Land taking place before Day ever mentioned. In fact, Romero's statements and intentions regarding the film were all aimed at showing the next step after Day of the Dead. Romero's the creator of these films, so I think he'd know which one goes where.

    I'm less convinced on Diary/Survival vs Night, but I've always personally considered Diary/Survival to almost be a 'reboot' of sorts, being that he went back to the beginning, and that Survival is a direct sequel to Diary with continuing characters (albeit not many). The original four don't do that kind of thing, and no JDP, before you mention it, the Blades zombie in Land doesn't count - it's a fan-pleasing nod-wink of a cameo, that's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    The scene implies they did.
    But what do you expect them to do, just sit around doing nothing? Of course they are going to try to see if they find someone. It's one of the few options they have left. That doesn't mean that all of them harbor much hope they will find someone, though. The pilot and the soldier who sarcastically says "another waste of time, right?" obviously think that to keep exploring for signs of any other survivors won't yield any results.

    Anyway, moving on. We'll never agree on this.

    In my mind, Day takes place around 6-8 months into it all. Maybe up to a year even. It depicts a small group of researchers who have been set up by the military, in isolation, to study and try to find a cure or solution to the zombie question. Slowly, but surely, they lose men. They started out with 18 and are now down to 12 persons. They're corrall of zombies is dwindling and they are running out of time and hope. They are beginning to realize that perhaps it is futile to try to solve this thing. Perhaps it's better to try to survive.

    On the other hand, Land depicts a society which has done just that. It's moved on. It's beyond trying to solve the issue. It's just trying to survive. As mentioned in dialogue in the film it's 3+ years into it and obviously people have adapted to a new way of life.

    It's clear as crystal to me which one takes place before the other. But I'm glad there can be disagreements among observers and I'm also aware that it's up to the viewer to decide which is which - even if Romero intended for it to be Day > Land.
    Romero's intentions are one thing, how the movies actually came out looking is another very different one. The world of Day came out looking so doomy, devastated, decayed and hopeless that he just could not duplicate this atmosphere in his next film. He simply outdid himself. Land has all the looks of happening before Day, not after: the more decayed zombies & cities/towns, the desperate behavior of the surviving human characters, the gloomy atmosphere of impending doom of a humanity reduced to a small dwindling minority... none fit well the other way around. The world of Day is one of humanity at the brink of extinction. The world of Land is one where a more numerous humanity still has hopes and a possible future. I don't think that Romero fully realized how well he accomplished these things in Day if he seriously thought that a movie like Land could "pass" as happening after. Besides these details, there's also contradictions that Romero apparently did not spot, like one of his main characters in Land showing ignorance of a basic fact that no person living so far into the zombie apocalypse could possibly ignore, or paper money still retaining its old value back when the government that backed it up was still around (something still seen in Dawn, but gone by the time of the more devastated world of Day.) When you start adding up all such details, it's just too difficult to accept the Day ----> Land sequence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    Aye. At no point whatsoever in the lead up to, nor time since (up to his death), the film being made, was Land taking place before Day ever mentioned. In fact, Romero's statements and intentions regarding the film were all aimed at showing the next step after Day of the Dead. Romero's the creator of these films, so I think he'd know which one goes where.

    I'm less convinced on Diary/Survival vs Night, but I've always personally considered Diary/Survival to almost be a 'reboot' of sorts, being that he went back to the beginning, and that Survival is a direct sequel to Diary with continuing characters (albeit not many). The original four don't do that kind of thing, and no JDP, before you mention it, the Blades zombie in Land doesn't count - it's a fan-pleasing nod-wink of a cameo, that's all.
    You said it: one thing is what Romero might have intended, and a very different one is how all these movies in question actually came out looking as. I don't think that he invested enough time in his more recent zombie films to "iron out the wrinkles". Just like it is too difficult for many people to accept Romero's intention that Diary is happening simultaneously as Night, it is also very difficult to accept that Land can possibly be happening after the total chaos and hopeless world of Day. Even many hardcore Romero fans notice and accept that he kind of "lost his touch" after Day. "The devil is in the details", the old saying goes.
    Last edited by JDP; 24-Feb-2018 at 09:35 AM. Reason: ;

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post

    Romero's intentions are one thing, how the movies actually came out looking is another very different one.
    I agree. With this part.

    And I think Romero did a good job of portraying the films in the order in which he inteded. Night, Dawn, Day and Land.
    Last edited by EvilNed; 24-Feb-2018 at 10:04 AM. Reason: fdsfsd

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    I think Romero got his ideas across just fine with Night/Dawn/Day/Land. The only thing with Day is that the budget had to be much smaller, so he had to adapt, but he still got his points across, and some of the points he was making with Land were clearly ideas that only make sense as a progression going forwards from Day of the Dead.

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