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Thread: So which Night film is canon to George's series, original or remake?

  1. #121
    Team Rick MinionZombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    That reference is about how long it took to put that operation together, certainly not about how long has the zombie crisis been going on.
    No, she says the operation was cobbled together in days, not months. If the operation had been put together in months then for one, it would have been too damn slow, and for two it'd be a hell of a lot better organised.

    And if you think Bub and Big Daddy are no different from one another in terms of their evolution, you're nuts.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    Aye, Romero talked about Big Daddy being the next step of zombie evolution a lot at the time of the film's release. The very fact that in the film the dead have been walking for so long that the living have devised ways to distract them so they can loot carefree (carefree to the point of a complete lack of care, as witnessed by the likes of Cholo), and are - in Romero's own estimation - more like a 'problem to be stepped over', clearly shows a Night-Dawn-Day-Land progression. Hell, in Day you've got Bub who is being taught by a human - in Land you've got a smart zombie teaching other zombies. Bub was just discovering his surroundings and gaining an understanding - Big Daddy leads an attack on a city - that alone makes it painfully obvious that Land follows Day.

    Diary and Survival, on the other hand, are obviously at the beginning of the ZA ... whether it's the same ZA as N/D/D/L or not is another debate entirely ... but Land clearly shows a thematic progression (the evolution of the zombies themselves clearly shows what the trajectory is - why would they de-evolve going from Land to Day?!) Romero's artistic direction is very clear.
    This bit about Big Daddy being capable of doing things that Bub couldn't is pure speculation. You don't know if Bub could have led other zombies as well. The movie ends without showing us what did Bub do next after he came in contact with other zombies. Everything else that Big Daddy does is pretty much the same as Bub. There is no clear "evolution" from Bub's basic capabilities here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    No, she says the operation was cobbled together in days, not months. If the operation had been put together in months then for one, it would have been too damn slow, and for two it'd be a hell of a lot better organised.
    You are the one who said "months". There is only one time reference in Day, and it's about the operation being put together, not about how long the zombie situation has been going on.

    And if you think Bub and Big Daddy are no different from one another in terms of their evolution, you're nuts.
    I already replied to this nonsense. Show us where is the evidence of this "giant leap" in "evolution" between Bub and Big Daddy? Let's see, they both growl, get pissed off like spoiled little brats when they see something they don't like, and clumsily shoot guns. Wow! I am flabbergasted by the huge "differences" between the two! In fact, if I remember correctly, Bub did something that Big Daddy did not do: attempt to talk! So who is really more "evolved"???

    And the reason why we did not see Bub leading any other zombies or teaching them tricks might very well be because the movie ends right after Bub comes in contact with the other zombies. The fact is that we have no idea whatsoever what did Bub do after that. For all we know, he led all the zombies out of the bunker. Or maybe not. Who knows.
    Last edited by JDP; 1 Week Ago at 11:06 AM. Reason: ;

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    You are the one who said "months". There is only one time reference in Day, and it's about the operation being put together, not about how long the zombie situation has been going on.
    In regards to a completely different conversation.

    I never once said "months" in relation to the 'putting together the operation' line that Sarah says. You, on the other hand, did.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    I already replied to this nonsense. Show us where is the evidence of this "giant leap" in "evolution" between Bub and Big Daddy?
    It's all over the movie, dude.
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 1 Week Ago at 11:16 AM.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    In regards to a completely different conversation.

    I never once said "months" in relation to the 'putting together the operation' line that Sarah says. You, on the other hand, did.
    Huh??? I quote you verbatim here from the earlier post I was replying to:

    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    IIRC a matter of "months" is explicitly referenced in Day of the Dead. Plus, Romero mentioned on numerous occasions that Day follows Dawn and is set only a matter of months into the ZA.
    Again, that reference (not in "months", as you misremembered) is about how long it took to put the bunker operation together, not how long has it been since the zombie crisis started.

    It's all over the movie, dude.
    Yes, we can see him do pretty much the same things that Bub did (and if I do not misremember, Big Daddy in fact did not attempt to talk, something which Bub in fact did!) The supposed "giant leap" in evolution shines for its absence only.

  5. #125
    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Nope, you still have to cite anything in the movie that unequivocally says or implies those 3 years refers specifically to the time the zombie crisis began. Keep on looking. It isn't there. It is not like the very specific time reference in Dawn.
    Fine, have it your way. This is as absurd as claiming that Night takes place after Day.
    Which, according to you, is a reasonable assumption to make.

  6. #126
    Just been bitten Monrozombi's Avatar
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    I haven’t read this whole thread but it seems one person has an outlandish theory that Land comes before Day and that Noght comes after Day if it reading correctly? So the question is why does it matter. No matter how much evidence or common sense is laid out, JDP is sticking to what they believe. If that’s what one person wants to think that’s fine. I see a lot of grasping for straws under the banner of “if Romero didn’t explicitly state something then it’s fair game”. I think we are all pissing in the wind at something I’ve never seen as an issue before.

    Land comes after Day and I don’t think there is anything to state otherwise other than someone looking deeper for a reason to delve deeper into the story and while there is nothing wrong with that this thread is going in circles.

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    Well of course night comes after Day. Remember the 30th anniversary came out in 98 and Day came out in 85

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monrozombi View Post
    Well of course night comes after Day. Remember the 30th anniversary came out in 98 and Day came out in 85
    And that's without even mentioning the remake!

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Huh??? I quote you verbatim here from the earlier post I was replying to:

    MZ QUOTE: IIRC a matter of "months" is explicitly referenced in Day of the Dead. Plus, Romero mentioned on numerous occasions that Day follows Dawn and is set only a matter of months into the ZA.
    Again, that reference (not in "months", as you misremembered) is about how long it took to put the bunker operation together, not how long has it been since the zombie crisis started.
    Read it again, JDP - not once do I mention "months" in relation to 'putting the operation together' - plain to see in that very quote you picked, which doesn't back up your point at all.

    And in yet another different conversation in the movies Sarah speculates that it could be years before they begin to really understand what's going on with the zombies (i.e. that "years" haven't happened yet). She also mentions "months" in relation to Logan re-proving theories that were proven "months" ago (i.e. that Logan's tinkering in his lab is pointless to the ultimate goal).

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Yes, we can see him do pretty much the same things that Bub did (and if I do not misremember, Big Daddy in fact did not attempt to talk, something which Bub in fact did!) The supposed "giant leap" in evolution shines for its absence only.
    Let's see what Bub manages to do in Day of the Dead - under clear human tutelage:
    • He recognises a book.
    • He recognises a razor and clumsily shaves with it.
    • Under clear physical instruction from Logan he learns to turn a tape player on and off with colour-coded buttons.
    • He has figured out that Logan = Food Provider and Non-Threat.
    • He recognises Rhodes as a military man and recalls his own military past - hence the salute.
    • His emotional outburst at figuring out Logan is dead (he's also proud/curious that his chain broke off and wants to show it to Logan).
    • His big thing is picking up a gun and using it to injure Rhodes.



    Now, compare that with Big Daddy in Land of the Dead - completely of his own volition:
    • He already has 'recognised behaviour' from the get-go as he proceeds to exit the gas station and go to the pump when the bell is accidentally rung (as do several other zombies - e.g. the ones on the bandstand who are all attempting to play music AND the butcher still carrying his meat cleaver AND the boyfriend/girlfriend holding hands, plus some others). This shows the zombies in Land 'picking up' from the zombies in Day in terms of evolution in a linear, forward-moving manner.
    • He also recognises that the "sky flowers" are being used as a distraction - he's the first to break from the spell of them and shows the other zombies not to look at them (the first of several instances where Big Daddy, a zombie, instructs fellow zombies - no human instruction necessary).
    • He steals a weapon from a biker and learns to shoot it (albeit clumsily) - he also makes the decision to keep the weapon and take it with him.
    • He sees the slaughter of fellow zombies and attempts to save one of his own kind - but fails (the severed head) - he then recognises the pitiful look in the severed head zombie (which, it seems, was the patriarch of a family of zombies who were sticking together) and puts the poor thing out of its misery.
    • He leads an entire group of zombies towards the human's city - which he recognises throughout the movie by the conspicuous, gleaming, illuminated tower of Kaufman's).
    • He teaches fellow zombies to perform actions - e.g. they come across a wooden blockage in their path. He sees the meat cleaver in the butcher's hand, he pulls the butcher over to it and gestures - blade to wood - and the butcher hacks through it and they all continue on their journey.
    • He is the first to drop into the water (of which all the others are afraid) and the others follow his lead.
    • Throughout the attack on the city he uses a variety of tools and weapons (e.g. the jackhammer to break the thick glass of the skyscraper), discerning which is best for the job.
    • His encounter with Kaufman is also quite revealing as to zombie evolution - Kaufman locks himself inside, Big Daddy wants revenge, so he assesses the area and sees the gas pump (a tool of his trade in pre-ZA life), knocks a hole through the window and pumps petrol into the vehicle - he then walks off specifically to get one of those flaming gas container thingies seen in the street (so he not only noticed them, he remembered them, and problem solved using different tools in different places) and returns - the flaming canister blows up Kaufman and the car, job done.
    • Finally, Big Daddy locks eyes with Riley and they share a moment - they both want peace - and Big Daddy leads his surviving zombies away to a new future.


    ...

    I cannot possibly explain it any clearer than that - obviously the evolution of the zombies has progressed from Day to Land (ergo Land follows Day) - and while I've enjoyed having a lengthy discussion about Romero movies again (something that doesn't happen often enough these days), I'll have to say that with that I'm bowing out of the conversation, because it's just going round in ruddy circles and who can be arsed with that?
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 1 Week Ago at 05:04 PM.

  9. #129
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    I never got why Romero never bothered to explain how the zombie behavior could regress from Day to Night, tho.

  10. #130
    Just been bitten Monrozombi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    I never got why Romero never bothered to explain how the zombie behavior could regress from Day to Night, tho.
    Bath salts

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    And that's without even mentioning the remake!
    The remake clearly comes between NIGHT 68 and DOTD

  11. #131
    Chasing Prey MoonSylver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Fine, have it your way. This is as absurd as claiming that Night takes place after Day.
    Which, according to you, is a reasonable assumption to make.
    This little nonsensical comparison of yours is wearing real thin by now. It has already been sufficiently explained why your analogy falls flat. Apples & oranges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Monrozombi View Post
    I haven’t read this whole thread but it seems one person has an outlandish theory that Land comes before Day and that Noght comes after Day if it reading correctly? So the question is why does it matter. No matter how much evidence or common sense is laid out, JDP is sticking to what they believe. If that’s what one person wants to think that’s fine. I see a lot of grasping for straws under the banner of “if Romero didn’t explicitly state something then it’s fair game”. I think we are all pissing in the wind at something I’ve never seen as an issue before.

    Land comes after Day and I don’t think there is anything to state otherwise other than someone looking deeper for a reason to delve deeper into the story and while there is nothing wrong with that this thread is going in circles.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well of course night comes after Day. Remember the 30th anniversary came out in 98 and Day came out in 85
    You should actually bother to read the thread first before making such mistaken comments. The person proposing outlandish things is Ned, he is the one who absurdly wants to compare a character not being specific enough regarding a period of time and something like Night very obviously being the very first movie in the series, which is self-evident and self-explanatory and needs zero explicit lines. There is nothing "outlandish" about Land happening before Day. In fact, when all details in these movies are considered, it is the choice that makes the most sense, not the other way around. Again, actually bother to read the thread and see who is really presenting the more logical arguments.
    Last edited by JDP; 1 Week Ago at 11:30 AM. Reason: ;

  13. #133
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    Ah, it warms the heart to once again see the Day/Land debate. That decade’s-worth of entertaining message board drama has been sorely missed.

    I’ll start the popcorn. Anyone seen Philly lately??

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinionZombie View Post
    Read it again, JDP - not once do I mention "months" in relation to 'putting the operation together' - plain to see in that very quote you picked, which doesn't back up your point at all.
    Are you trying to pull my leg here? You know very well what you said and in what context. Accept that it was your mistake, on both counts: "a matter of months" (it is in fact "a matter of days", as you then more correctly remembered after I replied) and that this time reference in the movie does NOT have anything to do with when the zombie crisis started. Again, I quote your words, verbatim and within the clear context you intended:

    IIRC a matter of "months" is explicitly referenced in Day of the Dead. Plus, Romero mentioned on numerous occasions that Day follows Dawn and is set only a matter of months into the ZA.

    And in yet another different conversation in the movies Sarah speculates that it could be years before they begin to really understand what's going on with the zombies (i.e. that "years" haven't happened yet). She also mentions "months" in relation to Logan re-proving theories that were proven "months" ago (i.e. that Logan's tinkering in his lab is pointless to the ultimate goal).
    That only refers to that particular theory the Doc is testing. How do you know if Logan did not have other theories before and then discarded them for this one months ago and that he is only now working on? Also, why did it take him so long to start working on something that was thought up months ago? If anything these references actually suggest that things aren't moving as smoothly and fast as these scientists would like. These folks might in fact have been working on this mess for quite an amount of time and advancing at snail pace due to a number of circumstances. Again, none of these references says anything concrete about when exactly is the action we are seeing in this movie happening in relation to the events seen in Night.

    Let's see what Bub manages to do in Day of the Dead - under clear human tutelage:
    • He recognises a book.
    • He recognises a razor and clumsily shaves with it.
    • Under clear physical instruction from Logan he learns to turn a tape player on and off with colour-coded buttons.
    • He has figured out that Logan = Food Provider and Non-Threat.
    • He recognises Rhodes as a military man and recalls his own military past - hence the salute.
    • His emotional outburst at figuring out Logan is dead (he's also proud/curious that his chain broke off and wants to show it to Logan).
    • His big thing is picking up a gun and using it to injure Rhodes.
    And there is a reason why Logan chose him: he was the only zombie he had encountered so far with the higher IQ. This he did not learn from anyone. He already had it. Doc Logan only helped his learning process.

    Now, compare that with Big Daddy in Land of the Dead - completely of his own volition:
    He already has 'recognised behaviour' from the get-go as he proceeds to exit the gas station and go to the pump when the bell is accidentally rung (as do several other zombies - e.g. the ones on the bandstand who are all attempting to play music AND the butcher still carrying his meat cleaver AND the boyfriend/girlfriend holding hands, plus some others). This shows the zombies in Land 'picking up' from the zombies in Day in terms of evolution in a linear, forward-moving manner.
    Nope, it doesn't. Even in Dawn the zombies are already trying to clumsily do things from their former lives. The very fact that they flock to the mall is a result of this. Plus Fisher also says he saw a zombie trying to drive a car in Washington DC. Nothing "new" here. Next!

    He also recognises that the "sky flowers" are being used as a distraction - he's the first to break from the spell of them and shows the other zombies not to look at them (the first of several instances where Big Daddy, a zombie, instructs fellow zombies - no human instruction necessary).
    He steals a weapon from a biker and learns to shoot it (albeit clumsily) - he also makes the decision to keep the weapon and take it with him.
    He sees the slaughter of fellow zombies and attempts to save one of his own kind - but fails (the severed head) - he then recognises the pitiful look in the severed head zombie (which, it seems, was the patriarch of a family of zombies who were sticking together) and puts the poor thing out of its misery.
    He leads an entire group of zombies towards the human's city - which he recognises throughout the movie by the conspicuous, gleaming, illuminated tower of Kaufman's).
    He teaches fellow zombies to perform actions - e.g. they come across a wooden blockage in their path. He sees the meat cleaver in the butcher's hand, he pulls the butcher over to it and gestures - blade to wood - and the butcher hacks through it and they all continue on their journey.
    He is the first to drop into the water (of which all the others are afraid) and the others follow his lead.
    Throughout the attack on the city he uses a variety of tools and weapons (e.g. the jackhammer to break the thick glass of the skyscraper), discerning which is best for the job.
    His encounter with Kaufman is also quite revealing as to zombie evolution - Kaufman locks himself inside, Big Daddy wants revenge, so he assesses the area and sees the gas pump (a tool of his trade in pre-ZA life), knocks a hole through the window and pumps petrol into the vehicle - he then walks off specifically to get one of those flaming gas container thingies seen in the street (so he not only noticed them, he remembered them, and problem solved using different tools in different places) and returns - the flaming canister blows up Kaufman and the car, job done.
    All of the above is moot: Day of the Dead ends pretty much at the moment that Bub comes in contact with the other zombies, so we have no idea whatsoever what happened after that. Did he become the leader of that gang of zombies that took over the bunker? Did he teach them tricks?? Did he lead them out of the bunker and into the Zombie Promised Land of Blood & Guts??? We'll never know! So trying to compare it with Big Daddy's interactions with other zombies, which are featured throughout the movie, is simply impossible since there is no equivalent material to compare it with on Bub's side. But we can compare what both of them did with what they had in common, like handling a gun (which Bub knew how to do all on his own, BTW, Logan did not teach him that), attacking a human opponent with it (which, again, Logan did not teach him, he knew how to do that all on his own), or getting angry/emotional when they saw something they did not like (which, again, Logan did not teach him, he did it on his own.) So I ask you again: where are these "huge" differences with what we can compare between both of them???

    Finally, Big Daddy locks eyes with Riley and they share a moment - they both want peace - and Big Daddy leads his surviving zombies away to a new future.
    This looks more like your interpretation of that scene (if I am not misidentifying the scene in question) rather than an objective observation. If I remember correctly, this scene happens while Riley is watching the wandering zombies through binoculars. That pretty much says it all about how could they possibly "lock eyes and share a moment"!


    I cannot possibly explain it any clearer than that - obviously the evolution of the zombies has progressed from Day to Land (ergo Land follows Day) - and while I've enjoyed having a lengthy discussion about Romero movies again (something that doesn't happen often enough these days), I'll have to say that with that I'm bowing out of the conversation, because it's just going round in ruddy circles and who can be arsed with that?
    And I cannot possibly explain it any clearer that you have not done any proper comparison of the two. You are just taking advantage of the fact that Big Daddy was placed in a very different setting than Bub and using what he had a chance of doing there to try to present this supposed "evolution". I can pull the same trick: did Big Daddy attempt to talk? Nope, he didn't. But Bub did! So who is more "evolved"?

    PS: obviously I am resorting to similar tactics as yours here. Big Daddy obviously could not have attempted to talk since he did not have the opportunity of having FRIENDLY contact with any human who might have tried to teach him how to talk, while Bub did.
    Last edited by JDP; 1 Week Ago at 12:38 PM. Reason: ;

  15. #135
    Just been bitten Monrozombi's Avatar
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    I’m trying to figure out why this is a thing in the first place

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