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Thread: So which Night film is canon to George's series, original or remake?

  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    I read the quoted passage. So? It doesn't guarantee anything regarding Land happening after Day.
    Yes, as you can read George's intention was for Big Daddy to be an evolution of Bub.
    Thus, with that reference and the dialogue in Land that specifically states that they are 3 years into the outbreak the only conclusion is that Land takes place after Day.
    Of course you could argue that Day takes place more than 3 years after the outbreak but that wouldn't make sense for a number of reasons as we've already outlined above.
    So the bottom line is that Land of the Dead take place after Day - as both Romero states it and it a timeframe is given in the film itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Yes, as you can read George's intention was for Big Daddy to be an evolution of Bub.
    Thus, with that reference and the dialogue in Land that specifically states that they are 3 years into the outbreak the only conclusion is that Land takes place after Day.
    Of course you could argue that Day takes place more than 3 years after the outbreak but that wouldn't make sense for a number of reasons as we've already outlined above.
    So the bottom line is that Land of the Dead take place after Day - as both Romero states it and it a timeframe is given in the film itself.
    He said an "uber" Bub. That does not mean much in terms of time. It could be that he wanted to envision him as "smarter" than Bub... but, once again, he did not really convey such an idea very clearly in the movie itself. All we see Big Daddy do in common with Bub is carried out with just about the same level of skill (more or less clumsy attempts at doing things that people do.)

    By the way: as some people have noted, Romero's memory was getting worse and worse with the years, and I think it shows in that interview. Apparently Romero forgot that Fisher even saw a zombie trying to drive a car in Washington DC. That's something else that we do not see or hear Big Daddy or any other zombie of Land do that the zombies in Day did. So this whole "uber" thingy is rather questionable. Once again we must distinguish between the filmmaker's original intentions and what did he really convey on the film itself, whether wittingly or unwittingly. They are not always the same.

    The dialogue in Land does not specify anything about any "outbreak", I have repeatedly challenged you over and over again to find even one single line that clarifies this for the viewer, but you have repeatedly failed to find it, because it simply isn't there. I could not challenge you to do the same in Dawn because such a clear and specific line that leaves no room whatsoever for any doubt does exist there, though.

    BTW: if you are still entertaining this erroneous idea that the Cholo-Kaufman "3-years-doing-your-dirty-work" dialogue in Land is supposedly clear and specific enough regarding the zombies and when they first came about, you can quote it to anyone who has not seen any of Romero's movies. Let's see how many people you find that will conclude from such a dialogue that these two characters are supposedly referring to a "zombie outbreak". How much you want to bet that the number is... ZERO! But now do the same with the very clear and explicit dialogue of Dawn regarding the 3 weeks. How much you want to bet that virtually NO ONE will fail to easily see that the two characters are very obviously talking about a zombie outbreak and how long it has been going on? And don't try to pull the "context" excuse either, which is very predictably what you will try to do in order to excuse why no one can make any connection whatsoever between those lines in Land and any "zombies". The Dawn lines are also taken "out of context", yet you will plainly see that no one will fail to easily perceive that the dialogue is plainly about a zombie outbreak that has been going on for 3 weeks, even without having seen the movie, while for the Cholo-Kaufman dialogue everyone will easily perceive it as being about one guy being pissed off with his employer for not treating him right after 3 years of services rendered. There is a reason for that. The two dialogues plainly carry their respective contexts with them. That's why everyone will fail to come to the conclusion that the 3-year dialogue in Land supposedly implies something about any "zombies", while virtually everyone will easily and plainly see that the 3-week dialogue in Dawn is certainly about zombies and how long they have been around, even if they have never seen any of these movies. The "context" is very plain in the lines themselves.

    There is no problem either with Day taking place 3 years after the outbreak, unlike Land, where the problems just continue to be there and make it paradoxical, as we've already outlined a bunch of times. There is nothing whatsoever in Day that prevents it from taking place that long into the zombie outbreak. For example, we don't see the paradoxical ignorance of Slack regarding zombie bites in any of the characters in Day, as should be expected from any survivors who have lived longer into the said outbreak. Such ignorance was excusable at the beginning of Dawn, though, as it was only 3 weeks into the outbreak, so we should expect some people to still not be familiar enough with the zombies and what their bites do to people. So, try as you might to ignore all these very pertinent contradictions/paradoxes in Land if you want to see it as happening after Day, they simply won't go away. We will keep on pointing them out until someone can come up with satisfactory answers for all these problems.

    So the bottom line still continues to be that Land makes little sense and is quite packed with contradictions and paradoxes (none of which you have satisfactorily "explained") if seen as happening after Day, whether that was Romero's intention or not.
    Last edited by JDP; 26-Apr-2018 at 12:25 AM. Reason: ;

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    He said an "uber" Bub. That does not mean much in terms of time.
    The Quote also referred to an evolvement of the zombies going back to Day - so Yes. It does in fact refer to time. Just like the exposition given by Cholo refers to the Zombie holocaust. Of course, you could ignore these very specific references, but that would be akin to referring to Night as possibly taking place after Day - after all there is nothing explicit to suggest otherwise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    The Quote also referred to an evolvement of the zombies going back to Day - so Yes. It does in fact refer to time. Just like the exposition given by Cholo refers to the Zombie holocaust. Of course, you could ignore these very specific references, but that would be akin to referring to Night as possibly taking place after Day - after all there is nothing explicit to suggest otherwise.
    The quote actually goes back to Dawn, and Romero's memory was starting to leave a bit to be desired by the time of the interview, as he doesn't seem to remember that the zombies in Day were already doing this "uber" kind of stuff (like attempting to drive cars, which we in fact don't see any zombies in Land try to do), so there is no real "novelty" in Land in this regard. Just like the lines of dialogue about the 3 years in Land also don't prove anything regarding any "zombies" since the context is Cholo obviously complaining about his boss not being fair with him for services rendered during those 3 years (no mention whatsoever in there that these services and these 3 years have to do exclusively with the zombies; find me the "smoking gun" proving otherwise; you keep on failing to do so, because it just ain't there.) And it is simply impossible for Night to take place after Day. Reason? Plain enough to anyone: nobody knew anything about any zombies at the start of Night, everyone was caught by surprise by them, we even see the media explicitly covering the shocking news of their appearance and informing the public about what is developing, whereas in all the movies that came after Night everyone already knows about the zombies from the very start. Explicit enough for you? Yep, it indeed is! Mankind does not go from knowing something to mysteriously not knowing it. Impossible. It would be like us knowing about atom bombs today, and yet tomorrow nobody knows a thing about them! It just does NOT happen. It's how reality works, that simple, and the filmmaker needs NOT explain anything in this regard (in fact he CANNOT do so, at the risk of ruining the whole movie by inserting some silly dialogue "explaining" what is perfectly obvious to everyone) since it is self-evident/explanatory. On the other hand: where is the "impossibility" in Cholo & Kaufman having been involved in dirty business since before the zombies were around??? Unless there is something in the movie that shows that this is not the case and these two met during the zombie crisis, the possibility easily stands. So you are in fact comparing apples & oranges, as pointed out countless times, only for you to then keep pulling this invalid "argument" over and over, only to be refuted over and over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    The quote actually goes back to Dawn, and Romero's memory was starting to leave a bit to be desired by the time of the interview, as he doesn't seem to remember that the zombies in Day were already doing this "uber" kind of stuff
    What Romero is referring to is Big Daddy's ability to lead and not just mimic and connect with past memories.
    Thus it is an evolution from Day, as per the interview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    What Romero is referring to is Big Daddy's ability to lead and not just mimic and connect with past memories.
    Thus it is an evolution from Day, as per the interview.
    If you read his quoted statement you will see that he does not seem to say anything specific about this, but he in fact specifically refers to their "memory" to do these kinds of things. He seemed to have wanted to make this point clearer in Land, but I think that was unnecessary, his previous two movies, specially Day, already made this point very clear.
    Last edited by JDP; 27-Apr-2018 at 11:11 PM. Reason: ;

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    If you read his quoted statement you will see that he does not seem to say anything specific about this, but he in fact specifically refers to their "memory" to do these kinds of things. He seemed to have wanted to make this point clearer in Land, but I think that was unnecessary, his previous two movies, specially Day, already made this point very clear.
    So since über-Bub is a evolution of the Bub (that's not open for interpretation) that suggests, again, that Land takes place after Land.

    So we have both the Romero interview and the dialogue in Land.

    That's two very explicit statements regarding when they are set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    So since über-Bub is a evolution of the Bub (that's not open for interpretation) that suggests, again, that Land takes place after Land.

    So we have both the Romero interview and the dialogue in Land.

    That's two very explicit statements regarding when they are set.
    That's not even one statement: "uber" does not necessarily mean "after", it just means "above/better", and the statements in Land itself are not specific enough to settle the matter beyond any shadow of a doubt, as the beginning of the zombie outbreak is not clearly and specifically referred to anywhere in the movie. Plus Day itself also lacks such specific dating beyond any shadow of a doubt, which leaves it open to question as well. And no, again, just because it is not clearly specified when these two movies are happening with respect to the first one it does not mean that Day or Land can happen "before Night" either. It is unquestionable that they are happening after the events of that first movie (self-evident/explanatory reasons for this already pointed out), but it is not at all clear exactly when after those first zombie events that took the whole world by surprise in the first movie.

    Oh, and even the "leading other zombies" stuff is not 100% new in Land either. By the end of Dawn we saw zombie Flyboy lead a large gang of zombies to the upper parts of the mall, where the last two human survivors were holing up. So, even by the end of Dawn it was pretty clear that the zombies were capable of retaining a certain degree of "collectiveness" and memory. Yet another thing that Romero seems to casually "forget" in the quoted interview.
    Last edited by JDP; 29-Apr-2018 at 01:04 AM. Reason: ;

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    That's not even one statement: "uber" does not necessarily mean "after", it just means "above/better"
    Exactly, and since we're talking about the evolution of zombies in a narrative sense, then Big Daddy comes after Bub.
    So as I said, we have two instances of Land clearly taking place after Day. We know it takes place 3 years after the outbreak and we know that Big Daddy is after Bub, so to speak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Exactly, and since we're talking about the evolution of zombies in a narrative sense, then Big Daddy comes after Bub.
    So as I said, we have two instances of Land clearly taking place after Day. We know it takes place 3 years after the outbreak and we know that Big Daddy is after Bub, so to speak.
    No, being "better" does not necessarily mean "after". These two zombies in fact must be pretty much "contemporaries". If you push me, Bub looks actually more "decayed" than Big Daddy, so I would say that he has been around a bit longer (this is in fact true for the average zombies of both movies: the ones in Day look plainly more "decayed" than the ones in Land. This is yet another argument in favor of seeing Land as taking place before Day. Add to that the state of decay of the abandoned cities as well: plainly more decayed in Day than in Land.)

    And no, we don't know for sure that Land takes place "3 years after the outbreak", that's just your preferred assumption regarding the vague "3 year" reference, but the movie itself never clarifies this anywhere. On top of that, we also don't have any clear time reference to the outbreak itself in Day. For all we know, Day is happening 3, or 5, or take-your-pick years after the outbreak.
    Last edited by JDP; 30-Apr-2018 at 05:44 PM. Reason: ;

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    No, being "better" does not necessarily mean "after".
    In the context of evolving zombies it does. Again, it's all about the context. If you think of Big Daddy as the next step in a line of zombies, it should become more clear to you. If you think about Cholo's lines are being said in a zombie apocalypse, it becomes undeniable that they refer to the start of the outbreak.

    I hope this clears things up for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    In the context of evolving zombies it does. Again, it's all about the context. If you think of Big Daddy as the next step in a line of zombies, it should become more clear to you. If you think about Cholo's lines are being said in a zombie apocalypse, it becomes undeniable that they refer to the start of the outbreak.

    I hope this clears things up for you.
    No, they don't, since those are just your assumptions, as plausible as any out of several possible ones. Just because something is said during an "apocalypse" it does not necessarily mean it refers to it or its beginning. Again, we see these characters refer to things that obviously either happened before or could easily have happened before said "apocalypse". Examples: Cholo's statements about his father (could easily refer to pre-apocalypse things, even though he does not specify any time for that reference) or Slack's statements about where she has lived all her life (obviously refers to BOTH: pre- and post- zombie apocalypse.) So there is nothing remotely "impossible" about Cholo's statements regarding his business relationship with Kaufman to also extend back to pre-apocalyptic times. Obviously all these people had lives before the zombies showed up, their lives did not begin with the zombies, they all have pasts that go back further and sometimes they refer to that.

    I hope this clears things up for you.
    Last edited by JDP; 01-May-2018 at 12:41 PM. Reason: ;

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    No, they don't, since those are just your assumptions
    No assumptions really. I mean, no more an assumption than assuming that for instance Night takes place prior to Day. That is, only reasonable assumptions since all deductions regarding the timeline in Day and Land have a root in either dialogue or interviews.

    For instance, Cholo mentions that Land takes place 3 years after the outbreak in dialogue. Romero mentions that Big Daddy is an evolution, or at least a step up, from previous zombies in the films.

    So no, no assumptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    No assumptions really. I mean, no more an assumption than assuming that for instance Night takes place prior to Day. That is, only reasonable assumptions since all deductions regarding the timeline in Day and Land have a root in either dialogue or interviews.

    For instance, Cholo mentions that Land takes place 3 years after the outbreak in dialogue. Romero mentions that Big Daddy is an evolution, or at least a step up, from previous zombies in the films.

    So no, no assumptions.
    Yes, they are 100% assumptions since nowhere is it clearly explained/clarified that the 3 year working relationship between the two characters necessarily refers to anything regarding the zombie outbreak.

    And your comparison with the self-evident/explanatory nature of Night very obviously being the first movie in the series is still (and always will be) invalid, since its status as such is due to just how reality works. The filmmaker does NOT (in fact he CANNOT!) be explicit about such things. It's a given. Everyone knows it because that is exactly how things work. People just don't mysteriously go from knowing and being well aware of something to not knowing it at all. That's not how it works. On the other hand, there is nothing whatsoever "self-explanatory/evident" regarding when exactly did Cholo and Kaufman first meet and started engaging in the seedy activities being alluded to (making troublesome people "disappear", dumping bodies, trafficking in booze, tobacco, etc.), which could easily be before the zombies came about and thus included in those 3 years. That NEEDS to be clarified/specified, otherwise it's anyone's guess. But Night being very obviously the first movie in the series is NOT "anyone's guess", it's not open to question since it's very crystal clear that it can be NOTHING BUT THE FIRST MOVIE in the series. So keep trying. Comparing apples & oranges leads nowhere.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Yes, they are 100% assumptions since nowhere is it clearly explained/clarified that the 3 year working relationship between the two characters necessarily refers to anything regarding the zombie outbreak.
    Actually, yes it is. You see, the dialogue lines are what in film are referred to as Exposition. They are both referring to the context of the film - the Zombie outbreak. Two different characters no less are referring to it, so there's more to it than just Cholo.

    So no, there are no assumptions. It is exposition given within the film, referring to the start of the zombie outbreak (3 years ago).

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