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Thread: So which Night film is canon to George's series, original or remake?

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    No, they're not. That's where you're mistaken.
    They are not open to interpretation.
    Yes, they are. Cholo wasn't referring to the zombies but to his business relationship with Kaufman. Where are the zombies unambiguously mentioned or even alluded to here??? The bum/wino/whatever was talking about the last time he drove a car. Again, where are the unambiguous references to the zombies here??? Neither one of those remarks takes place in a dialogue involving the zombies. Compare that to the very clear and unambiguous 3 week reference in Dawn, which happens during an argument regarding the zombies and thus leaves no doubt whatsoever about what those 3 weeks refer to.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Yes, they are.
    No. They are not open to interpretation.
    It is exposition given to us within the frames of a zombie apocalypse. Romero is not trying to tell us anything about Cholo's dayjob 3 years ago. To sugges so is absurd.
    Your argument is meaningless.

    You can make the case that these lines do not refer to the start of the apocalypse but that would be on the same absurd level as suggesting that Night could potentially take place after Day.
    Last edited by EvilNed; 20-Apr-2018 at 09:00 PM. Reason: sdfsdfs

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    No. They are not open to interpretation.
    It is exposition given to us within the frames of a zombie apocalypse. Romero is not trying to tell us anything about Cholo's dayjob 3 years ago. To sugges so is absurd.
    Your argument is meaningless.

    You can make the case that these lines do not refer to the start of the apocalypse but that would be on the same absurd level as suggesting that Night could potentially take place after Day.
    No, it is not, and no matter how many times you try to pass this "Day of the Dead happens before Night of the Living Dead" fallacy as "equivalent" it simply won't pass muster. Cholo could very well have been working for Kaufman before the zombie thing happened and he would be referring to that, there is nothing "weird" or "impossible" about that. But it is totally impossible that the events in Night could possibly have happened after Day. Why? Once again let me point out the very obvious impossibility for you: in Day everyone knows about the zombies, they are not a "novelty" to anyone, while in Night no one knows anything about the zombies and everyone is totally caught by surprise by their appearance. We don't need anything else to see where the impossibility of your proposition is, it is plain as day to everyone. It is pretty similar to those people who absurdly want to claim that Lucio Fulci's Zombie is supposedly an unofficial "sequel" to Dawn or Night. Why is that impossible? Well, the exact same reason: in that movie no one except the inhabitants of Matul know anything about zombies being real. By the end of the movie everyone in the world is starting to realize how real they are since the zombie plague has made its way to New York and the media is reporting the events. That by itself prevents that movie from being any kind of sequel to the two Romero movies, where we plainly see that everyone became very well aware of the zombies and the media reported their reality to the whole world. People can't simply go from knowing something to mysteriously and bizarrely not being aware of it again. The world does not work that way.
    Last edited by JDP; 21-Apr-2018 at 12:41 AM. Reason: ;

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    No, it is not, and no matter how many times you try to pass this "Day of the Dead happens before Night of the Living Dead" fallacy as "equivalent" it simply won't pass muster.
    It's an absurd statement. Just as absurd as stating that the lines in Land are open for interpreration - which they obviously are not. They are said in context. The context is the raging zombie apocalypse. It's obvious to everyone.
    Last edited by EvilNed; 21-Apr-2018 at 09:52 AM. Reason: köllkölkö

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    No, they're not. That's where you're mistaken.
    They are not open to interpretation.
    I don't think Romero was the kind of filmmaker to throw such things into his movies without justification. Those "three years" comments are in there to make a point. Otherwise there's absolutely no cause for them to be in the film. Romero deliberately has his characters mark a timeframe.

    "No, no, no. Three years! Three
    years I been cleaning up after you,
    taking out your garbage, and you
    tell me I'm not good enough? You're
    the one who's no good. You are no
    fucking good. And you are gonna let
    me in. You know why? Because I know
    what goes on around here. How many
    of your fucking "members" know
    what's in that garbage I take out
    for you?"


    "How long have I been working
    for you? Three years?
    Taking out your garbage,
    cleaning up after you
    and then you're going to say
    I'm not good enough?
    Let me tell you something,
    you're going to let me in
    because I know what goes on
    around here. Do your committee
    members know what the fuck is
    going out with the garbage?"

    Cholo says this for a reason in both the original and the shooting script, and he not talking about his "old" job before the zombies started chomping on people.

    Also, Asia Argento's character says she's "never been out" of the city. She says that for a reason too. It's to indicate that Pittsburg has been in the midst of the zombie apocalypse for a considerable amount of time and it isn't some recent phenomena that's just happened a few months ago.
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  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    It's an absurd statement. Just as absurd as stating that the lines in Land are open for interpreration - which they obviously are not. They are said in context. The context is the raging zombie apocalypse. It's obvious to everyone.
    Sorry, but no, the context of those lines in Land is NOT about the zombies. Keep trying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    I don't think Romero was the kind of filmmaker to throw such things into his movies without justification. Those "three years" comments are in there to make a point. Otherwise there's absolutely no cause for them to be in the film. Romero deliberately has his characters mark a timeframe.

    "No, no, no. Three years! Three
    years I been cleaning up after you,
    taking out your garbage, and you
    tell me I'm not good enough? You're
    the one who's no good. You are no
    fucking good. And you are gonna let
    me in. You know why? Because I know
    what goes on around here. How many
    of your fucking "members" know
    what's in that garbage I take out
    for you?"


    "How long have I been working
    for you? Three years?
    Taking out your garbage,
    cleaning up after you
    and then you're going to say
    I'm not good enough?
    Let me tell you something,
    you're going to let me in
    because I know what goes on
    around here. Do your committee
    members know what the fuck is
    going out with the garbage?"

    Cholo says this for a reason in both the original and the shooting script, and he not talking about his "old" job before the zombies started chomping on people.

    Also, Asia Argento's character says she's "never been out" of the city. She says that for a reason too. It's to indicate that Pittsburg has been in the midst of the zombie apocalypse for a considerable amount of time and it isn't some recent phenomena that's just happened a few months ago.
    Your very own quotes show my point: where is anything said here that Cholo is talking about the zombies? All he mentions is the fact that for 3 years he's been doing Kaufman's "dirty work". Where does it say or imply anything else??? Kaufman is a crook, he could easily have been doing illegal stuff long before the zombies came about, and Cholo was one of his "handymen". Where is the "impossibility" in this??? As it stands, that dialogue proves nothing about how long has it been since the zombies first appeared. Now compare those lines with the truly specific and unambiguous dialogue in Dawn:

    - Do you believe the dead are returning to life?
    - I'm not so...
    -Do you believe the dead are returning to life and attacking the living?
    -I'm not so sure what to believe, doctor. All we get is what you people tell us. And it's hard enough to believe...
    -It's fact...! It's fact...!
    -It's hard enough to believe without you coming in here...
    -You're not running a talk-show here, Mr. Berman! You can forget pitching an audience the moral bullshit they wanna hear!
    -You're talking about abandoning any human code of behaviour...

    -You're not listening! You're not listening! We've had this situation for the last 3 weeks... What does it take? What does it take to make people see?
    -People aren't willing to accept your solutions, doctor, and I for one don't blame them!
    -Every dead body that is not exterminated becomes one of them. It gets up and kills. The people it kills, get up and kill!


    There are no "ifs" or "buts" here: the 3 week reference is unambiguously about how long the zombie situation has been going on at this point in the movie. It is simply impossible to interpret it any other way. There is no such equivalent in Land (or Day.)

    As for Slack's statement: many people actually live their whole lives in one city or town, without going anywhere else. It doesn't prove anything. But the same character does in fact say something regarding the zombies themselves which again argues against the idea that they could really have been around for 3 years: she has no idea how long does it take for a bitten person to die and come back as a zombie. Does it sound reasonable to you that a person could possibly live through 3 years in this zombie crisis and NOT know something so basic and vital for survival??? I don't think so! You don't have to tell any of the characters in Day such a well-known thing, though, they are all very familiar with what exactly the zombie bites do to people.

    As I said many times before, if Romero did indeed intend this movie to happen after Day, he did a very lousy job at trying to convey that idea. Seen that way, the movie has many contradictions and paradoxes. But most of these problems vanish by simply inverting the order.
    Last edited by JDP; 21-Apr-2018 at 07:47 PM. Reason: ;

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Your very own quotes show my point.
    It doesn't even remotely coincide with your point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Sorry, but no, the context of those lines in Land is NOT about the zombies. Keep trying.
    I don't need to keep trying. It's obvious to any and all that Land is a continuation from Day. Romero said so himself, go back a page or two, that Big Daddy was an "uber bub".

    Besides all of that, it's mentioned in the film that Land takes place 3 years after the outbreak. It's in the film. You can't ignore it and at the same time make a case for yourself.

    So your argument holds as much water as saying that Night takes place after Day. Which is an equivalent comparison, according to you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    It doesn't even remotely coincide with your point.
    Yes, they do, as there is no reference to the zombies in those quotes whatsoever. Again, that's just you and Ned ASSUMING that it must be in reference to them, but if you read the quotes without this ASSUMPTION you will see that there is no explicit implication about them anywhere. Plus the idea that these movies could not have references to things that go back to events before the zombies, on which this invalid argument solely rests, is false too. There's a number of references to events in these movies that can also easily be interpreted as having happened before the zombies (like Cholo's or Dr. Logan's comments about their fathers and what they did, which though not specifically said to be from pre-zombie times they can also be easily interpreted as such, since there is nothing in these dialogue lines to prevent them from being so; same thing as Cholo's lines about him working for Kaufman.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    I don't need to keep trying. It's obvious to any and all that Land is a continuation from Day. Romero said so himself, go back a page or two, that Big Daddy was an "uber bub".

    Besides all of that, it's mentioned in the film that Land takes place 3 years after the outbreak. It's in the film. You can't ignore it and at the same time make a case for yourself.

    So your argument holds as much water as saying that Night takes place after Day. Which is an equivalent comparison, according to you.
    An "uber" whatever does not mean it happened "after", plus I am judging the movie by what it shows, Romero's intentions apart.

    There is no such reference in the movie that it has been "3 years after the outbreak". Again, find me such a line which unambiguously states so. It does not exist.

    Nope, because you already know how impossible and incorrect your "comparison" is. It is you and you alone who bizarrely thinks they are equivalent. The chronological order of Night ----->Day is NOT open to any kind of question as it relies on self-explanatory/evident things which the filmmaker does NOT have to clarify to anyone, unlike when exactly is Land supposedly happening, which needs specific addressing or else it's anyone's guess. Your "reduction to absurdity" kind of arguments do not work. So keep on trying. Maybe one day you will manage to get a proper counterargument that does not rely on a fallacy.
    Last edited by JDP; 22-Apr-2018 at 08:14 PM. Reason: ;

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Yes, they do, as there is no reference to the zombies in those quotes whatsoever. Again, that's just you and Ned ASSUMING that it must be in reference to them, but if you read the quotes without this ASSUMPTION you will see that there is no explicit implication about them anywhere. Plus the idea that these movies could not have references to things that go back to events before the zombies, on which this invalid argument solely rests, is false too. There's a number of references to events in these movies that can also easily be interpreted as having happened before the zombies (like Cholo's or Dr. Logan's comments about their fathers and what they did, which though not specifically said to be from pre-zombie times they can also be easily interpreted as such, since there is nothing in these dialogue lines to prevent them from being so; same thing as Cholo's lines about him working for Kaufman.)
    Just because it doesn't mention zombies, specifically, doesn't mean anything.

    In the context of the film, Cholo has been dumping bodies and whatnot for Kaufmann for three years. He states clearly that Kufmann's henchmen doesn't know about it. And he (Cholo) is working for a place in Fiddler's Green. He also states later that without "this truck" (Dead Reckoning), he'd just be another Mexican bum pushing a lawnmower. So his relationship as Kaufmann's dirty worker and his use of Dead Reckoning has given him a certain elevation that wouldn't have existed pre-apocalypse.

    Three years is marked as a specific timeframe, not just for a laugh, or for some nebulous want. It's marked by Romero (twice) for a reason. That dialogue means something and isn't what you want it to mean.

    You're just ignoring obvious stuff, because it doesn't support the narrative you want in your head.
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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    Just because it doesn't mention zombies, specifically, doesn't mean anything.

    In the context of the film, Cholo has been dumping bodies and whatnot for Kaufmann for three years. He states clearly that Kufmann's henchmen doesn't know about it. And he (Cholo) is working for a place in Fiddler's Green. He also states later that without "this truck" (Dead Reckoning), he'd just be another Mexican bum pushing a lawnmower. So his relationship as Kaufmann's dirty worker and his use of Dead Reckoning has given him a certain elevation that wouldn't have existed pre-apocalypse.

    Three years is marked as a specific timeframe, not just for a laugh, or for some nebulous want. It's marked by Romero (twice) for a reason. That dialogue means something and isn't what you want it to mean.

    You're just ignoring obvious stuff, because it doesn't support the narrative you want in your head.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    An "uber" whatever does not mean it happened "after"
    In a narrative sense: Yes - it does. Read Romero's quote again. He explains how a zombie by the end of day grasped a Rifle, then came Bub, then came Big Daddy. Case closed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    There is no such reference in the movie that it has been "3 years after the outbreak". Again, find me such a line which unambiguously states so. It does not exist.
    There is a reference in the movie. Have you seen the film? Have you noticed it takes place after a zombie holocaust? That's the reference. It's there for all to see. It's not open to interpretation.
    But if you insist that it IS open to interpretation, then you also agree that Night could possibly take place after Day - as that would also be open to interpretation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shootemindehead View Post
    Just because it doesn't mention zombies, specifically, doesn't mean anything.

    In the context of the film, Cholo has been dumping bodies and whatnot for Kaufmann for three years. He states clearly that Kufmann's henchmen doesn't know about it. And he (Cholo) is working for a place in Fiddler's Green. He also states later that without "this truck" (Dead Reckoning), he'd just be another Mexican bum pushing a lawnmower. So his relationship as Kaufmann's dirty worker and his use of Dead Reckoning has given him a certain elevation that wouldn't have existed pre-apocalypse.

    Three years is marked as a specific timeframe, not just for a laugh, or for some nebulous want. It's marked by Romero (twice) for a reason. That dialogue means something and isn't what you want it to mean.

    You're just ignoring obvious stuff, because it doesn't support the narrative you want in your head.
    How do you know that he hasn't been dumping bodies for Kaufman before the zombies??? The guy is obviously a CROOK, how do you know he wasn't already doing similar stuff before the zombies appeared and that Cholo was already one of his henchmen??? Again, show me this by quoting the dialogue. There is NOTHING in it to say this is not the case. Face it: the way Romero wrote this dialogue it is hardly specific and it is open to interpretation, unlike the dialogue in Dawn about the 3 weeks. Neither character is talking about the zombies when they deliver those lines, they are specifically talking about their business relationship for the last 3 years. Where in the dialogue it says that these 3 year relationship necessarily began during the zombie crisis and not before??? Again, you are just ASSUMING that must be the case, but the dialogue itself does not guarantee this ASSUMPTION. For all we know, these guys already knew each other before the zombies came about. Show me otherwise from the dialogue itself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    In a narrative sense: Yes - it does. Read Romero's quote again. He explains how a zombie by the end of day grasped a Rifle, then came Bub, then came Big Daddy. Case closed.
    Hardly so. It was at the end of Dawn, where we also see the zombies flocking to the mall because they "remember" they want to be in that place. Plus being "uber" does not mean it must have happened "after" either. It could be that he is just "smarter" than Bub (which, again, Romero totally failed to show, since everything he did that we also saw Bub do does not show any big difference.)

    There is a reference in the movie. Have you seen the film? Have you noticed it takes place after a zombie holocaust? That's the reference. It's there for all to see. It's not open to interpretation.
    But if you insist that it IS open to interpretation, then you also agree that Night could possibly take place after Day - as that would also be open to interpretation.
    No, there is no such "agreement" as the Night ------> Day order is not open to question under any circumstance, while those vague dialogue lines in Land are very much so. The fact that the movie is about zombies does not prevent people in it from having known and worked with each other since before that event. Show me where is this "impossibility"??? Also, references to things that happened before the zombies came about are found in these movies as well. For example, Slack says she's been living in this city since it was "a real city" (meaning, before the zombies came about and the city had to basically become a fortress.) This "argument" that just because the movie is about zombies everything said in it must be about them is quite incorrect. In the case of Cholo's argument with Kaufman, it is obviously about their business relationship for the last three years, without any mention whatsoever about anything regarding the zombies. They are talking about the "dirty work" that Cholo has been doing for Kaufman for the last 3 years, zombies or no zombies involved, this is not specified anywhere.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Hardly so. It was at the end of Dawn, where we also see the zombies flocking to the mall because they "remember" they want to be in that place.
    Read the interview. I posted it a few pages back. It's obvious you're skirting around too many bushes and trying not to face the obvious.

    Anyway, so we both agree that Land takes place 3 years after the outbreak, since it is not open for interpretation. You agree that since references must not be explicit for them to be able to tell a tale (i.e. normal film exposition) since you agree that Night cannot take place after Day. - And that these comments are said in the context of a zombie apocalypse and thus refer to that. Glad you came to your senses.

    So that leaves the idea that Day takes place after Land - which (as we agree) take place 3 years into the conflict. So you think Day takes place 3 years on? And they haven't even begun exploring the coastline?
    Last edited by EvilNed; 23-Apr-2018 at 08:54 PM. Reason: fdsfsdfs

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Read the interview. I posted it a few pages back. It's obvious you're skirting around too many bushes and trying not to face the obvious.
    I read the quoted passage. So? It doesn't guarantee anything regarding Land happening after Day. And even if that was Romero's intention, what counts is how what he showed on screen comes across, and it certainly does not make this clear at all. Land has quite a number of contradictions and paradoxes if you want to see it that way.

    Anyway, so we both agree that Land takes place 3 years after the outbreak, since it is not open for interpretation. You agree that since references must not be explicit for them to be able to tell a tale (i.e. normal film exposition) since you agree that Night cannot take place after Day. - And that these comments are said in the context of a zombie apocalypse and thus refer to that. Glad you came to your senses.
    No, but we both know very well that there is no certainty at all when Land is supposedly happening in regards to the outbreak, since it is very much open to interpretation. If you still want to revert to your invalid arguments, you need to explain and show where exactly is the "impossibility" in Kaufman & Cholo having been working together doing illegal stuff before the zombies showed up. You also know perfectly well that this vague dialogue is not equivalent to self-evident/explanatory things, like people not knowing anything about zombies and being caught totally by surprise by their appearance must BY FORCE (I.E. NO CHOICES HERE!) precede people knowing and not being surprised at all by the existence of those zombies. Time does not move backwards, we both know this very well. So the filmmaker does not need to clarify any of this, since it is simply common sense and how the world works, while the issue of when exactly is a sequel happening in respect to this self-evident/explanatory first movie MUST BE SPECIFICALLY AND CLEARLY STATED (such as Romero did in Dawn, a nice example of a very clear time-reference in respect to the first movie), otherwise it's anyone's guess. So the two cases are not comparable by any stretch of the imagination. I am glad you finally realize this!

    So that leaves the idea that Day takes place after Land - which (as we agree) take place 3 years into the conflict. So you think Day takes place 3 years on? And they haven't even begun exploring the coastline?
    It is not clear when Day takes place, true; pretty much the same situation as Land, as Romero did not clarify when exactly were these two movies happening after the events we see in Night, which as you know perfectly well, it is indisputably the first movie in the series, something that CANNOT be questioned because it is self-evident/explanatory. The way time and history works simply prevents this from being put into question. Glad to see you finally admit it!

    Oh, and exploring the coastline after 3 years of being busy doing other things (like gathering a veritable army of unruly dangerous zombies and transporting them underground to a corral) is way more believable than someone supposedly living through 3 years of the same zombie crisis and bizarrely not knowing something as basic as what exactly happens to people when they are bitten by the zombies!
    Last edited by JDP; 24-Apr-2018 at 08:00 PM. Reason: ;

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