James Gunn's firing

[Neil]

OK, what he said was bad... But it was like ten years ago... I don't understand why the need for a witch hunt and him being sacked? I actually sort of hope the cast, do a little more than just an open letter about it, and actually refuse to make the next film without him - https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Culture/c...l_twitter_abcn

[EvilNed]

It seems absurd to fire him for what he's done - I agree. But Disney is family franchise and I'd imagine that kinda weighs into this. They have to protect their brand and these kind of jokes just don't jive with that. Personally I don't think he's done anything wrong and I don't think he deserves this. But I also Disney should take whatever steps they need to protect their image.

[Neil]

It seems absurd to fire him for what he's done - I agree. But Disney is family franchise and I'd imagine that kinda weighs into this. They have to protect their brand and these kind of jokes just don't jive with that. Personally I don't think he's done anything wrong and I don't think he deserves this. But I also Disney should take whatever steps they need to protect their image. Feels like Disney have just been PC mad and knee jerked, resulting in actually making a mountain out of a mole hill, and them looking worse (indeed petty)!

[blind2d]

I agree, Neil. He's a good director, and could do great things moving forward, while this is behavior he's already learned and grown from in his past, so it's only a big deal because some internet troll went digging and called him out for it, causing Disney to respond like this, which honestly... Yeah, makes them look petty at the very least. The whole thing is just so 'ugh'.

[shootemindehead]

Disney were just crapping themselves about a Twitterati crusade and hit the nuke button. It was farcical. What's even worse is that this was set off by some conservative gobshite as "revenge" against a "liberal" for Roseanne Barr getting fired for her racist remark against Valerie Jarrett. This is where America is as a society. Scouring the web for PC misdemeanours and childish mudslinging to score petty political points. If anything, it might teach celebs to stay off of Twatter. Why they go on that stupid thing is beyond me anyway. Absolute minefield of shite.

[MinionZombie]

The Tweets appear to have been intended as jokes. Now, whether you find them funny or not is an entirely separate issue (I wasn't laughing), but structurally I recognised the basis of a joke - you set up a premise, then subvert it with absurdity or shock value. They were, as has been said, from years ago as well as rather shocking. However, I don't believe they represent his actual personal life or character (nice people can and do say messed up things for a multitude of reasons). Indeed, he's had loads of praise from those he works with (and, therefore, spends an awful lot of time with), and the fans are in his favour as well - but this whole thing is a massive farce and corporate fear is one of several driving factors. The far left have had a big hand in creating this ultra-PC offendotron culture where someone can be hounded out of a career and long-held reputations for a mere comment that they, the self-appointed new moral arbiters of the shifting PC sands, have deemed incorrect for any number of reasons (a comment that is reported through an offended party, rather than directly heard from the source on some occasions, no less), or even for just wearing a saucy bit of clothing (remember the NASA guy wearing the anime girl shirt?) There's even corporate backing for this mindset from the likes of Twitter, shutting down accounts of people who say things they don't like (fine if it's hate speech, or something illegal, but there's been numerous cases of someone who just doesn't share the same political ideology - i.e. they're a Republican, or a Conservative of some hue with an alternative opinion on some hot button issue). Surely they're allowed to hold and express these alternative views in public? Then, in turn, those from the other sides should then be free to hold a discourse with them (preferably polite and based on facts, not fear or an agenda paid for by a pressure group). This is freedom of speech. Hate speech, however, is another thing entirely, but getting blasted off Twitter merely for disagreeing with the 'correct' opinion on a topic? Yeesh. And hell, on a lot of these topics I'll likely hold a very similar view as the powers-that-be at Twitter hold, but this echo chamber culture is poisoning discourse. Politics the world over has been hijacked by the extremes - the far left and the far right, with the bewildered centrists (a notch or two going one way or the other) left without representation, looking on as Rome burns in utter frustration. To normal-minded folks who believe in innocent until proven guilty, in the burden of proof, in facts not hyperbole, in rehabilitation, in second chances, in the adaptability of views over time when confronted with various opinions/facts (etc etc etc), this is a terrible time and it's seemingly not getting any better. So the far left came up with a nuclear weapon for social media, and the far right have learned how to use it for their own purposes. It's sick. Ironic, though, that the person who 'exposed' James Gunn's Tweets (which had already been reported on - and apologised for - in 2012) had their own history of 'dodgy Tweets'. This kneejerk reaction stuff, and the social media outpouring of scorn that follows, is simply terrifying. This sort of stuff is not the actions of a civilised society, nor an intelligent one. It's merely a cacophony of anger and hatred and revenge and it's ultimately doing nobody any good. No conversation is taking place. There's no moderation to anyone's reactions. Various pots have been left to boil and now the broth has spewed over the edge. But ... might we be seeing a little bit of a conversation start? The statement from the GotG cast hinted at such a thing. One place to start is to do away with virtue signalling - particularly rife on Twitter - with all sorts trying to make themselves look pristine and 'correct', but the world is not a simple place of black and white answers, so many of these issues are exceedingly complex and some of them simply don't have any one right answer to them because of the inconsistencies that can arise as a result of the fundamental building blocks of our society - When does free speech turn into hate speech, for instance, and how is it precisely measured and according to what rule crafted by which collection of people? How many times have you seen a picture on Social Media of someone attending a political event or protest, in which their face dominates the picture and the event itself can hardly be seen? Virtue signalling. As for Disney's rep as a family firm ... well, when you hear stories of some of their film productions (which star children) employing, for example, casting directors who are convicted paedophiles, then it makes a farce out of James Gunn getting slung out for decade-old Tweets. Shock humour and crass jokes are nothing new, and comedians the world over will admit to sharing heinous jokes in private company. Hell, normal people on any street in any country will have told offensive jokes to each other either for laughs or to get a rise out of someone, or to merely disgust for basic and simple shock value. People also say all manner of things that don't represent their actions or true selves - is everyone who says "I'll kill you" to someone in an argument a murderer? Of course not. There's degrees of behaviour as well, but this too seems to be an 'inconvenient/incorrect' idea to express (nuance and complexity has been done away with in this new era of fake news and anti-science). There was a concise comparison that I heard someone say on a podcast recently, IIRC it was a comedian talking about all this kind of stuff (forget the specific source, just now), and they gave the example of theft: you've got a kid shoplifting a chocolate bar and you've also got armed robbery with a bunch of goons sticking up a bank with automatic weapons ... both are examples of one crime: theft, but they're not equal versions of it. Shades of grey, context, proof, moderation, talking to people, listening to people, engaging in a discourse about an idea and finding a workable middle ground ... all of these things and more have been jettisoned in favour of Instavengeance. We clearly have certain problems in our society that need to be sorted out, and it's a shame to see in various instances the work of good people getting corrupted by the fury of those who believe that their end goal is justified by any underhanded means that they can conjure up. This kind of behaviour doesn't help our society improve or move forward, and sadly it has been stoked by those who (claim to) oppose it as much as those who actively use it (for deliberately nefarious reasons). Twisting someone's words by taking them out of context harms us all. Banning the right to reply (and be heard) harms us all. Painting "the other side" as the enemy, dehumanising them with bile and hatred and social media lynch mobs etc etc etc isn't going to heal the wounds we are finding in our society across the globe. That's only going to make those wounds deeper and more infected and drag everyone down further and further while the real problems we face continue to go unfixed and while reasonable people get swept up in the maelstrom. ... I went off on a bit of a rant there, haha ... and kind of went off on various tangents, but it all kind of links up. Hopefully I've expressed myself clearly and reasonably.

[blind2d]

I mean nice rant there Minion, but yeah? Like, you can't say people on the left are as bad as literal Nazis actually advocating for genocide... No one on the left is doing that, except maybe in jest (i.e. "kill all men", etc). The centrist position seems indefensible to me, as you have one group actually interested in the betterment of the planet and all, opposed to the right which really just cares about wealthy cishet white men. Like, the choice seems obvious to me. But yeah, I agree that there's nuance and shades of grey and all that. Discussion is great! Freedom of speech is great, long as it's not hate speech (and don't play, you know hate speech is outright and intentional bigotry). But here in the US, there are actual concentration camps of "illegal immigrants" in operation, so like... conservatives seem a bit more on the fascist side of things, just my perspective. Nothing new for the US though sadly, look at WWII, slavery, etc. Annnyway, Overton window. But yeah, James Gunn shouldn't have been fired, but Roseanne does seem to be a horrible racist, so *shrugs*. Honestly I didn't want to make this too political, but here we are. Capitalism is evil and must be stopped.

[shootemindehead]

/\ All of the above is predicated on who we mean when we say "left" "right" or "centrist". Frankly, I don't even recognise any of them any more and those claiming any position eventually come across as "right" when they feel their own particular set of beliefs are under attack, even if that "attack" is merely a question or a difference on a point of view. It seems to me that the "natural" go to of most folk, these days, is a want to freak out, label and then utterly destroy their opponent in a "discussion", and I use that term in the loosest possible way as, over the last 20 years or so, I've seen less and less actual discussion and more a tendency to veer towards tribalism, cliques and political assassination of "sides". Obviously, this stems from the internet and the easy slide that exists there to find like minded souls in which to indulge in your wildest opinions and beliefs. Many of which remain completely untested in the real world. The lack of robust testing of one's opinions and beliefs are what lead to these breakdowns and shouting matches, where we see battle lines drawn and sabres rattled, if someone with an opposing viewpoint airs that viewpoint. To me, when I see anybody saying that a person can't do such and such a thing, I just think "rightwing", because it's always been a tendency of the right to champion such censorious causes. But, it must be said that much of our modern way of viewing "left" and "right" comes from America, where no such thing as the left even exists. There is no left wing in America, it's always been shades of right. The political system over there is one that operates on a right and more to the right pair of parties. I don't recognise anything that the Democrats do as "left wing", certainly not in the traditional left wing style that Europe has known. In fact, what is need over there in that laughable political system is more parties of varying flavours, including a real left wing option and not the one that masquerades as such at the moment. And I'm not talking about the likes of the Libertarians, who are, frankly, just right wingers by another name and whose political world view would see society turn back to the 19th Century, undoing all of the good things that the left have fought for over the 20th Century. Plus, while this current political wave of hysterical outcry may seem to stem from the "left", they are not the sole possessors of that proclivity and in fact, it was the conservative right who were always the self proclaimed arbiters of taste, morals and censorship. Not the left. These days, one could be forgiven in thinking that an about face has occurred and it's now the left who seem to hold themselves up as champions of what opinions people can hold or what people can say. Plus, they seem to be bogged down in what are really social side issues like identity politics and abandoning the more serious issues that currently plague western society, like out of control boom and bust faux-economies that favour the very small numbers of those wealthy enough to absorb the damage when those inevitable busts occur, while the rest of the people have to foot the bill and carry the financial burden. As for freedom of speech, I take Chomsky's view of that and hold to it. That is, one is either for freedom of speech or their not. There is no "freedom of speech, but on my allowable terms". Such a thing simply cannot exist, because everyone's allowable terms will be different, and where freedom of speech SHOULD be held the most dearly is for speech you disagree with. Freedom of things you agree with is easy. But, allowing those same freedoms to ideas and opinions that you personally find objectionable is the real test of how free you think speech should be.

[blind2d]

Very well said, shootem. Couldn't agree more. Sorry I'm tired right now, but there's nothing there I could find to add to or disagree with, so... yes, well done. I still think that hate speech is bad, but, would I try to harm someone just for that? No, I would not. Not sure what else I could say, other than yeah, again, Gunn shouldn't have been fired for the pot-stirring that Captain Pizzagate did.

[bassman]

As shootem said earlier, this has all been due to a witch hunt or revenge for the Rosanne thing, which is an entirely different situation. Disney overreacted, but I don’t see them reversing the decision, as they won’t wanf to appear indecisive. It’s a shame, but I suppose another studio will snatch Gunn up for some other big franchise. It’s strange because Marvel’s Kevin Feige has recently been vocal about Gunn essentially being in charge of the next phase of the MCU because of how he was able to successfully open up the cosmic stories.

[MinionZombie]

I mean nice rant there Minion, but yeah? Like, you can't say people on the left are as bad as literal Nazis actually advocating for genocide... No one on the left is doing that, except maybe in jest (i.e. "kill all men", etc). The centrist position seems indefensible to me, as you have one group actually interested in the betterment of the planet and all, opposed to the right which really just cares about wealthy cishet white men. Like, the choice seems obvious to me. But yeah, I agree that there's nuance and shades of grey and all that. Discussion is great! Freedom of speech is great, long as it's not hate speech (and don't play, you know hate speech is outright and intentional bigotry). But here in the US, there are actual concentration camps of "illegal immigrants" in operation, so like... conservatives seem a bit more on the fascist side of things, just my perspective. Nothing new for the US though sadly, look at WWII, slavery, etc. Annnyway, Overton window. But yeah, James Gunn shouldn't have been fired, but Roseanne does seem to be a horrible racist, so *shrugs*. Honestly I didn't want to make this too political, but here we are. Capitalism is evil and must be stopped. I think you're reading a thing or two into my post that I did not say. I never suggested that the overtly offended folks on the left, whose social media witch hunts against anyone of any shade of grey with whom they disagree are in any way comparable with Nazis. In fact I didn't even mention Nazis, Neo or otherwise, so please don't infer things I didn't say, nor intended, nor even touched upon. But just to be clear I'm not angry or anything, but I don't like being misinterpreted. I guess we fundamentally disagree on centrism, or being around the political centre. There are shades of grey, yes? So there is nuance to many issues. However I also have firm views on certain subjects, but my views don't adhere to one alignment. Socially liberal, financially conservative with a small c. The UK political parties have been hijacked by their far out wings on left and right, so I see no representation of reasonable and respectful debate anywhere. Similarly I wouldn't say capitalism is evil, it's the abuse of the system by certain individuals or groups that is the problem, but that's a far more complex problem to solve. We are living in strange times. The 1990s were my formative years and it was all about labels not being that important. Now it's the total opposite, and labels are used as weapons in a very tribalist way. Politics has become so toxic and tribal, it's no longer about solving a problem, it's just teams and nobody on either side is allowed to work with the other or find common ground. As such so many problems are left to get worse with people pulling apart, left and right shunted to the extremes with every bully calling the shots. It's twisted and sick. There's no talking going on, no working towards workable solutions, just screaming and fighting and hair trigger condemnation.

[bassman]

Well said, MZ. Totally agree. Just talking would be the greatest thing for everyone. Btw, I’m not sure why, but I totally heard Marc Maron’s voice while reading that last paragraph...?

[MinionZombie]

Well said, MZ. Totally agree. Just talking would be the greatest thing for everyone. Btw, I’m not sure why, but I totally heard Marc Maron’s voice while reading that last paragraph...? LOL, well I do enjoy Maron's sense of humour and his WTF Podcast. I try to take a more practical approach. We're all living on the planet so it'd make sense if we could get along as best we can. I don't believe in stopping people from living their life fairly. For instance gay marriage was legalised in the UK recently and that's great because it meant gay folks could express their love just like heterosexuals. Some people took issue with it but the arguments made no sense. They are entitled to hold their views, but they can't deny someone else's right to be treated equally. Their rights have not been dented, but others' have been expanded and that's a good way forward. Another issue is the sheer division we are all experiencing. We must talk and be open to discussion in an honest, truthful, and non judgemental arena. Slamming your enemy as sub human will only entrench them further and it does nothing to further your argument. There was an episode of SModcast a while back where Kevin Smith interviewed Megan Phelps, who has now left the Phelps fold and discovered a whole new way of life. She was brought out of her enclave not through force, but through honest discussion with someone who took polite issue with her beliefs back then. Through discussion her view was expanded and she found new perspectives. Naturally she deeply regrets what she has previously said, but now gives talks about bringing opposing sides together. It was a powerful listen that is well worth checking out. Hatred as powerful as hers at the time only entrenched her, but open discussion as powerful as her hate was able to break through.

[blind2d]

I think you're reading a thing or two into my post that I did not say. I never suggested that the overtly offended folks on the left, whose social media witch hunts against anyone of any shade of grey with whom they disagree are in any way comparable with Nazis. In fact I didn't even mention Nazis, Neo or otherwise, so please don't infer things I didn't say, nor intended, nor even touched upon. But just to be clear I'm not angry or anything, but I don't like being misinterpreted. I guess we fundamentally disagree on centrism, or being around the political centre. There are shades of grey, yes? So there is nuance to many issues. However I also have firm views on certain subjects, but my views don't adhere to one alignment. Socially liberal, financially conservative with a small c. The UK political parties have been hijacked by their far out wings on left and right, so I see no representation of reasonable and respectful debate anywhere. Similarly I wouldn't say capitalism is evil, it's the abuse of the system by certain individuals or groups that is the problem, but that's a far more complex problem to solve. We are living in strange times. The 1990s were my formative years and it was all about labels not being that important. Now it's the total opposite, and labels are used as weapons in a very tribalist way. Politics has become so toxic and tribal, it's no longer about solving a problem, it's just teams and nobody on either side is allowed to work with the other or find common ground. As such so many problems are left to get worse with people pulling apart, left and right shunted to the extremes with every bully calling the shots. It's twisted and sick. There's no talking going on, no working towards workable solutions, just screaming and fighting and hair trigger condemnation. Sorry I didn't mean to put words in your mouth or anything like that. I sincerely apologize, as I know firsthand how utterly irritating that can be. I don't think my words here can do my emotions justice on this matter, but please believe me when I say I'm sorry. As for leftist witch-hunts... Perhaps I'm out of the loop, but I haven't really noticed any for a while. Just criticism of the current right-wing political administration in my country, and billionaires being terrible... Which, obviously anyone with that much money can't be a good person, right? I agree on the grey and nuance, but I also think sometimes it's important to actually take a side in conflict? I don't have the luxury of being neutral, as these policies directly effect my life and the future of my country, even the world. Discussions are very important and can have impact! Which is one reason to deny fascists platforms. One of the biggest reasons. Socially liberal is good! Financially conservative is why?! Money is imaginary. It only works because we as a society and collective give it value. Reasonable and respectful debate is all well and good, but sometimes it's not enough, sadly. I too wish we could all just sit down and hold hands and sing kumbaya, but that's not the world we live in. The solution to capitalism is very simple. Do away with it. There is nothing stopping us if we all come together. Unseat those in power. Crush the bourgeoisie. Capitalism exists as an abusive hierarchy wherein a small portion of a given population controls the majority of the wealth, thereby accruing an inordinate amount of power and influence over the working class/masses. There is no moral way to do it. Everyone getting equal pay? That's socialist, right? Not capitalist. Popular democracy? Wherein every person has as much power as any other? Great! Where in the capitalist "West" is this truly practiced? Definitely not my country with its "Democratic Republic" that really only functions as an oligarchy for those with obscene wealth. The gap only grows wider every year as the oceans fill with more and more plastic and the weather gets more outrageous. The environment is being strangled (nature herself!) by capitalism. And the rich want to escape to Mars, leaving those too poor to buy a ticket to rot here while the planet dies around us. If the rich cared about others, they wouldn't be rich. I'm sorry I have to disagree here but the system is rotten, only catering to those willing to betray everyone around them to acquire more resources and power than them. Capitalism is self-centered, and thereby purely destructive to everything in its path. Perhaps I'm being hyperbolic here, but.. I'd love to be proven wrong. Some people care too much about labels these days, sure. Some just like to play with English/language, and see what can be done. Some are trying to better define themselves and their experience in life. I don't think these are inherently bad things. Different, sure, but bad? And no talking going on? We're talking now, aren't we? Maybe the tensions are higher lately, sure, but could that be because deep down we all know that the clock is ticking down, closer than ever? I'll bring up privilege again. Some people have their very lives and families hanging in the balance currently. Hell this whole world, really, and it's not the Republicans versus the Democrats, it's very accurately the 1% against everyone else. Some just think if they side with the abusers, they won't get hit. But we all get hit. Fuck the police, but they're being fucked already by the 1% too. Just siding with the abusers. *large exhalation* I don't have all the answers. I just know that we can do better. We maybe have to, if we want to survive. Somebody's got to survive. And personally, I want to try and help as many as possible. All bosses are thieves.

[bassman]

LOL, well I do enjoy Maron's sense of humour and his WTF Podcast. Me too, I was also sad to hear that he felt he’d finished his TV show in a good spot. I could’ve watched that for many more years to come, but I suppose it makes sense that he felt it was time to move on. Glow has been well received and now he’s also announced that he’ll be acting opposite Joaquin Phoenix and Robert Deniro in the new Joker movie. Pretty crazy for a guy that’s always saying he’s not a real actor!