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Thread: No Time To Die (2021) - Bond 25...

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    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    No Time To Die (2021) - Bond 25...

    I fear this may be the beginning of the end of our beloved Bond due to movies heading into ever more woke and PC directions...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IELdm0PmJR8
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    We'll see. If Bond ever goes that way I'm pretty sure they'd loose much of their fanbase.

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    Bond, Woke Bond...

    I stopped watching Bond movies a long time ago. I am a "Bond Puritan", it's Sean Connery and Roger Moore or nothing. But the Timothy Dalton ones were pretty good, I have to admit. After those, the franchise just kept on losing its charm with each new installment and new "Bonds".

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    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDP View Post
    Bond, Woke Bond...

    I stopped watching Bond movies a long time ago. I am a "Bond Puritan", it's Sean Connery and Roger Moore or nothing. But the Timothy Dalton ones were pretty good, I have to admit. After those, the franchise just kept on losing its charm with each new installment and new "Bonds".
    Sort of agree, but Danial Craig's Casino Royale for me was nigh on a perfect Bond film, and felt very Connery'esque!
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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    through another dimension bassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    Sort of agree, but Danial Craig's Casino Royale for me was nigh on a perfect Bond film, and felt very Connery'esque!
    Agreed. If anyone is skipping Craig’s films because of what came from the Brosnan era, they’re missing out on the best Bond entries since From Russia With Love and Goldfinger. Particularly Casino Royale, Skyfall, and Spectre.

    And how is this woke? Because Bond’s 007 designation was given to another agent in his absence, and it happens to be a woman?

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    Even if the execution in the film ends up being kind of limited, the talk surrounding the movie is what ends up being deafening when it comes to 'Hollywood wokery', if you will.

    I've read numerous things about "Censor" where they made such a stink about #TimesUp relevance, but the movie barely has a snifter of that at all. There's a sleazy movie producer in it who makes horror movies, but beyond that stock character type the rest of the men in the movie are pretty normal, and even the 'intense/arty' director guy wasn't really into that territory either.

    Sometimes it's down to certain lines of dialogue (putting down a male character to make a female character look strong has become a worrying trend/cliche in many movies lately - so to be strong you have to be a condescending arsehole???), or a trailer (*cough* Captain Marvel *cough*), but yeah, the clickbait whirlwind of bullshit and culture war inflation just to get rises out of either side (and therefore even more clicks) is just so tiresomely predictable.

    There's certainly some great female/'POC' characters out there (e.g. the lead in Blood Red Sky was awesome quite recently), but there's just as many who are underserved by piss poor material where 'themes' over-ride storytelling quality, where 'stop the show to score points' moments clang like a bowling ball rolling down a marble staircase (*cough* Avengers Endgame *cough*), where the whiff of cynical box ticking oozes about ... it's all about as honest as a corporation waving a rainbow flag (they just want your money and a certificate of progressiveness to entice wider investment opportunities), a paper thin veneer to appease Twitter.

    Saying you're progressive and being progressive are two quite different things. The majority of people out there are decent and accepting of each other in reality. They're less keen on being brow-beaten by messages or having fingers wagged in their faces, especially for transgressions they don't take part in.

    Back to Bond...

    I've been a big fan of Craig's time as Bond - Casino Royale and Skyfall are two of the all-time very best Bonds, and Quantum of Solace and Spectre are both thoroughly enjoyable (latter probably better than former). Looking forward to seeing this new one, so fingers crossed it's good.
    Last edited by MinionZombie; 06-Sep-2021 at 12:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    Agreed. If anyone is skipping Craig’s films because of what came from the Brosnan era, they’re missing out on the best Bond entries since From Russia With Love and Goldfinger. Particularly Casino Royale, Skyfall, and Spectre.
    Skyfall, yes, but Spectre is terrible. It's Austin Powers-levels of ridiculous at times.
    The opening sequence is great but it relies on far too many tropes that have been lampooned in countless Spy-parodies since all the way back to the first Casino Royale.
    And the whole "It was all me, Bond" twist didn't make sense at all. Felt like they wanted for the audience to feel fooled, but instead it just felt shoehorned in and ludicrous.

    I could go on about smaller details in that film as well, but in the end - it's just not a good script. In fact.. Quantom of Solance makes more sense than that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    Agreed. If anyone is skipping Craig’s films because of what came from the Brosnan era, they’re missing out on the best Bond entries since From Russia With Love and Goldfinger. Particularly Casino Royale, Skyfall, and Spectre.

    And how is this woke? Because Bond’s 007 designation was given to another agent in his absence, and it happens to be a woman?
    I didn't say it was woke... My fear is it will go woke...

    And let's just remember, his designation didn't just go to a woman, but a POC woman... Which risks of course these days risks being due to [Tick] [Tick]. But let's see what the future films bring.
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil View Post
    I fear this may be the beginning of the end of our beloved Bond due to movies heading into ever more woke and PC directions...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IELdm0PmJR8
    Honestly, this could have been the trailer to any of the Craig-Bonds.

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    through another dimension bassman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilNed View Post
    Skyfall, yes, but Spectre is terrible. It's Austin Powers-levels of ridiculous at times.
    The opening sequence is great but it relies on far too many tropes that have been lampooned in countless Spy-parodies since all the way back to the first Casino Royale.
    And the whole "It was all me, Bond" twist didn't make sense at all. Felt like they wanted for the audience to feel fooled, but instead it just felt shoehorned in and ludicrous.

    I could go on about smaller details in that film as well, but in the end - it's just not a good script. In fact.. Quantom of Solance makes more sense than that one.
    I agree, Spectre definitely has it’s issues. I suppose I included it because it feels more tied to the overall Craig/Bond arc than Quantum. Spectre has some great scenes sprinkled throughout, but it certainly wasn’t on the same level as Casino or Skyfall.

    I understand what you guys are saying about the “woke 007”. I suppose I never saw it that way because Moneypenny was a field agent several films ago and nobody cared. Before the world went crazy about that kind of stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bassman View Post
    I understand what you guys are saying about the “woke 007”. I suppose I never saw it that way because Moneypenny was a field agent several films ago and nobody cared. Before the world went crazy about that kind of stuff.
    Partly it's down to execution - it worked really well with Moneypenny as she was being introduced to the Craig era, and they kept a little bit of the sexual tension, but they also wrote in a good way that she comes to realise on her own that field work isn't what she wants.

    Part it's also down to all the swirling PR stuff surrounding a movie, and that's often what makes the biggest stink and turns the most people off - the sheer volume of the self-aggrandising back slapping. It's all pretty crass and reduces individuals down to categories to be exploited - either framed as a hero or a villain on the basis of sex or race (neither of which anyone actually chooses at birth) or whatever else. Ironically, it creates segregation. Rather than just being a well written character with a good story who the audience can get on board with, you too often get a selection of ticked boxes in a cynical show of performative progressiveness. The mass media feeds like a glutton on division and actively encourages it, and movie studios have been getting on board with it too, especially through advertising and trailers (e.g. the sheer amount of stink surrounding Captain Marvel, a thoroughly mediocre movie with countless story problems that only had 90s nostalgia going for it - and even that was doled out with a thunderous lack of subtlety).

    By way of example - Gillette. Remember that idiotic advert they did that was basically all about slagging off men - you know, the consumer base for their products! - and harping on about "toxic masculinity" etc? Yeah, a beyond moronic approach. Anyone who needed to hear what they were preaching were never going to listen anyway, and anyone who would hear it already are decent blokes who are then angry that they're still being slagged off and don't take kindly to it. Now - compare that with a recent one they're showing here in the UK. It's a simple enough advert, a man - who happens to be black - shaving, and then his son comes in and they hug or whatever (my memory's a bit fuzzy, I usually fast forward through all these bloody advert breaks) - they don't make a "thing" about him being black, because that's not the issue. They don't harp on about "toxic masculinity" because again, that's not the issue. It's about shaving, and you get a positive father role model. Simple as and nobody's kicking up a fuss, because there is no fuss. Just a man and his boy, and a shaving advert about shaving.

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    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    More fear of Bond being bashed with a woke stick... I'll wait for a couple of reviews before seeing it, but hopefully the concerns are not grounded.

    And given how poor the attendance at cinemas is at the moment, it'll surely struggle to earn the 1b$ is needs?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRyMYmdT7xg
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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    It must be a proper pain in the arse to dust all that crap he's got lined up in his background.

    Marketing certainly is an issue these days. "Censor" had a load of 'woke talk' attached to it (e.g. Total Film ramping up the MeToo relevance of it), but the actual film barely has a shred of it beyond a typically sleazy producer of sleazy horror videos. There was no constant undercurrent of TimesUp chatter, it stuck to its story well and I was at a loss for finding anything really that linked to what was being harped on about in reviews and articles. It's almost as if one person sets the template and then other reviewers just copy/paste.

    The trailer for Captain Marvel was an example - that cringe worthy moment where they highlighted "HER" from "HERO" ... ... why? It's naked pandering and treats people like idiots.

    There's being a lot made about PWB (I take it that she was just hired to tweak the female characters and that's about it, everything else was written by Neal Purvis and Robert Wade (with Fukunaga sticking his oar in as well once he came on board). The way some articles were talking about it a while back was as if PWB had written the whole film. She actually had to come out and correct them. Indeed, you wouldn't be fourth listed out of four writers if you had done the whole thing. Rewrites and polishes and tweaks are common on big franchise films like these, with someone else with fresh eyes making changes. That's what's happened here. Nothing special or out of the ordinary.

    Of course, you have the 'woke marketing' side but then you've also got the other side of the equation - videos like this guy with the undustable nerd room. Where is the line in the sand from appropriate commentary to adding fuel to the fire?

    I have been gaining a disdain for the growing trend of 'female character says something mean spirited to a male character to make themselves look strong'. Now, I enjoy snarky banter with a playful mood and good sense of humour behind it (I often write that way myself), but the difference is that it's coming from an affectionate place. The clips we've seen repeatedly of Nomi have leaned heavily into the first example above, and that's concerning ... ... funny, too, that she has the same name as the explosively petulant exotic dancer from Showgirls.

    It's also curious how the likes of Fukunaga think that calling Bond a rapist is going to do anything to sell the movie to your audience. I mean, what? It's like 'negging' but for movie advertising. And Bond doesn't need to expand it's global marketing reach via Twitter trend thinking - it's already one of the longest running and most highly recognised franchises on the planet!

    I do hope that it's just a lot of silly bullshit getting whipped up under this false notion that it creates box office dollars, because I've really enjoyed the Daniel Craig era, and it's not as if they haven't had strong women in the franchise before either. Just in the Craig years alone we've had Vesper and M and Moneypenny bringing superbly crafted women to the 007 screen. The ending of Skyfall is an absolute heartbreaker for all the right reasons. Those films didn't require this sort of marketing approach, and approach that doesn't really work and serves to turn people off. You get enough of it in real life, so why would you want to get it from escapist cinema as well?

    Also, there's no way in hell they're gonna make back the money in the cinema while Covid is still farting around buggering things up. No way. Sadly, regardless of quality, regardless of the 25th film milestone, I can't see this movie making anywhere near that amount. It's a real shame, but there's so many good films out there that have been fucked over by Covid, it's just terrible timing. I bet they wish they'd managed to get it out in November 2019 now!

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    Webmaster Neil's Avatar
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    WOW! 2hr43m!
    Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there--on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam. [click for more]
    -Carl Sagan

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    Zombie Flesh Eater EvilNed's Avatar
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    If MGM is trying to "woke-ize" Bond then they've seriously misunderstood who the target audience is.

    I'm sure the next Bond will correct that.

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