Armor in Zombie Outbreaks

[Exatreides]

I started thinking, most of the zombie stories, both small scale and large scale only talk about the CQC of fighting Zombies, almost no mention is ever made to Large military formations. Tanks How incredibly effective would tanks be against hoards of the undead? Shells that can blow up buildings would destroy a undead mass, 50 caliber Machine gun could eviserate any ghouls that got close. Not to mention they could simply run over them if they had to. Aircraft. Close Air Support anyone? A Spooky spectre gunship or a A-10 would destroy a undead mass in seconds. Helicopters Could clean a area of undead, then deliver ground forces in to mop up. Really. How could America fall? Even with the undead multiplying fast, we could still make bullets faster then they can spread. Thats why I really don't think out side of third world countries a Zombie outbreak would last very long, the sheer Tech advantage we would have over them. What do you guys think about Armor and Military Tech in large scale zombie outbreak? You think it would be as effective as I stated?

[Cykotic]

You have a bloody good point.... There is no way that countries like England and America could fall to a zombie epidemic... The Military forces along with Police Armed responce units (a.k.a SO19) could easily take out the dead. However.... It would require strategic planning. Zombies can't stratagize and that makes them more dangerous....

[Tullaryx]

Good points. I think the military in itself would do well on its own, but I think their effectiveness might be compromised by the fact that some members of the military may go AWOL to go home and protect their families and loved ones. Then you have the problem of refugees and civilians hading en masse to military installations and bases seeking protection. Of all the government institutions it would be the military that will survive with any semblance of order, but they will still experience large number of losses due to human-to-human conflicts.

[dannoofthedead]

Very good point. It would be very hard and very prolonged before a country like the U.S. could fall to a plague of zombies but not entirely impossible. Much like you see in the original Dawn of the Dead, people would not be willing to surrender their family members and friends up so readily to specialized units of anything. Also, it would take time for us to understand that these things are not really human anymore. People in America especially (the land where you can sue a fast food joint because you're fat) would have mixed emotions about shooting "rioters" which is more than likely what the ghouls would be seen as for at least the first day or two. Reports of cannibalism and the dead rising would be far fetched and with so many skeptics in all levels of power and society it would be near impossible to quickly give the order to "kill on sight. Also, when you take into account that not all soldiers and police officers, especially the ones who have families or are too green to know how to properly react under stress (which comes with time and training) would be able to stand their ground the line of control gradually falls apart. A tanker gets jumpy and fires a round into a friendly cluster of soldiers, a cop says yo hell with it and leaves his post to save his family, one piece after another the wall falls down. Idealy, the armed forces and local law enforcement would stand on training and proceedure alone and would never allow an outbreak of the undead spread further than a city or two. But human nature has to be accounted more heavily than any amount of learning and the need for self preservation will always win out. Mind you this is my opinion and nothing else.

[Arcades057]

There are a few problems with this way of thinking. 1) Armored vehicles. I cannot see any sort of main battle tank, like the Abrams or the Chieftain, being anything much more than a tomb to its occupants or a way for a small group of the living to attack another group of living. Tanks can run people over, sure, but even the largest tank can come to a stop when charging through groups of the living dead. The main gun of an M1 Abrams MBT is 120mm; it would not be used against the LD, but rather against fortifications of the living. The tank would serve a better role as a machinegun platform. Let us not forget about the fact that gasoline, even diesel, has a shelf life. I believe that life is only about 3 months, after which time it must be treated with something (don't remember what) to make it work the way it's supposed to. So after a few weeks that badass tank is nothing but a pretty cool bunker, unless you know how to treat the gasoline or make your own. 2) Aircraft. Guess what planes need to get up and come down? Fuel. Also aircraft need runways large enough to accomodate them. Something such as the Spectre AC-130 gunship would need a runway large enough to accomodate a 747--that rules out any smaller, private airports. This means you've gotta find either a military base or a major airport like LAX. Think you'd be alone in LA or NY or any other major city? 3) Helicopters. Still need fuel. Still need a field and enough people to service the things. They would be the most useful of the three, however one would run into far more problems with helicopters than they would with ground vehicles; imagine running low on fuel and trying to find a place to land in an urban area, or being out in the middle of nowhere in the same bird. As for the rest, rest assured of the following. In a living dead situation things would go down much the same as they do during any other sort of natural disaster. You'd have one group of people sitting around and waiting it out. They would not prepare; they would simply assume that the gubbment would come in and scoop them up if their lives were in danger. They would die in droves, all the while sitting on roofs and crying "we need help." Another group would be your "head for the hills" types, who would do just that. They would pack up and flee wherever they were, heading to wherever they wanted to go. Their cars would clog the arteries of the country and their bodies would add to the undead hordes. This would leave large caches of supplies lying around for the taking around major roads, though, which would be a good thing. The third group would be those who are prepared. They may evacuate, they may stay where they are; rest assured they have a plan. If they stay home, they'll have power and food and water and be armed to the teeth, plus they'll have an evac plan ready; if they leave, they'll be heading somewhere in a straight line, planning to spend as very little time between points A and B as possible. Notice there isn't any room for people who decide to go to work that day, so no more bullets will be made; no more gas will be produced. Possibly, if society can survive past a few days and people begin to take stock and realize that certain things are needed in a post-dead world, then bullets will be made again. Now this is not to say that there are not copious amounts of ammunition lying around, for there are. But that will all burn up eventually. And if there are people cruising around in tanks or planes or helos shooting up the place, it'll run out even sooner.

[Philly_SWAT]

Let us not forget about the fact that gasoline, even diesel, has a shelf life. I believe that life is only about 3 months, after which time it must be treated with something (don't remember what) to make it work the way it's supposed to. So what about Mel Gibson's "Road Warrior". It looked to me that in that movie it was way past 3 months after the initial problem, most everyone had rotten teeth and little brainpower. Do you take it that they were treating the gasoline, or was the movie just inaccurate?

[Exatreides]

There are a few problems with this way of thinking. 1) Armored vehicles. I cannot see any sort of main battle tank, like the Abrams or the Chieftain, being anything much more than a tomb to its occupants or a way for a small group of the living to attack another group of living. Tanks can run people over, sure, but even the largest tank can come to a stop when charging through groups of the living dead. The main gun of an M1 Abrams MBT is 120mm; it would not be used against the LD, but rather against fortifications of the living. The tank would serve a better role as a machinegun platform. Let us not forget about the fact that gasoline, even diesel, has a shelf life. I believe that life is only about 3 months, after which time it must be treated with something (don't remember what) to make it work the way it's supposed to. So after a few weeks that badass tank is nothing but a pretty cool bunker, unless you know how to treat the gasoline or make your own. 2) Aircraft. Guess what planes need to get up and come down? Fuel. Also aircraft need runways large enough to accomodate them. Something such as the Spectre AC-130 gunship would need a runway large enough to accomodate a 747--that rules out any smaller, private airports. This means you've gotta find either a military base or a major airport like LAX. Think you'd be alone in LA or NY or any other major city? 3) Helicopters. Still need fuel. Still need a field and enough people to service the things. They would be the most useful of the three, however one would run into far more problems with helicopters than they would with ground vehicles; imagine running low on fuel and trying to find a place to land in an urban area, or being out in the middle of nowhere in the same bird. As for the rest, rest assured of the following. In a living dead situation things would go down much the same as they do during any other sort of natural disaster. You'd have one group of people sitting around and waiting it out. They would not prepare; they would simply assume that the gubbment would come in and scoop them up if their lives were in danger. They would die in droves, all the while sitting on roofs and crying "we need help." Another group would be your "head for the hills" types, who would do just that. They would pack up and flee wherever they were, heading to wherever they wanted to go. Their cars would clog the arteries of the country and their bodies would add to the undead hordes. This would leave large caches of supplies lying around for the taking around major roads, though, which would be a good thing. The third group would be those who are prepared. They may evacuate, they may stay where they are; rest assured they have a plan. If they stay home, they'll have power and food and water and be armed to the teeth, plus they'll have an evac plan ready; if they leave, they'll be heading somewhere in a straight line, planning to spend as very little time between points A and B as possible. Notice there isn't any room for people who decide to go to work that day, so no more bullets will be made; no more gas will be produced. Possibly, if society can survive past a few days and people begin to take stock and realize that certain things are needed in a post-dead world, then bullets will be made again. Now this is not to say that there are not copious amounts of ammunition lying around, for there are. But that will all burn up eventually. And if there are people cruising around in tanks or planes or helos shooting up the place, it'll run out even sooner. 1. Against Large masses of Undead the 120 MM cannon with HE shells would be more effective then the machine gun, I only see the machine gun being really usefull if they get to close, or for suppression fire of living targets. While Fuel is a problem, Securing depots ect could lengthen this time for awhile, Or tanks could simply serve as Stationary firing positions hurling Shells at groups of undead before they even approach a possition, thus saving fuel. 2. I agree, finding a airport would be difficult to use, and defending a military base could become problomatic with all the civilian traffic headed in that direction, I think air support is always vital, against the undead or Human opponent. 3. Agree about Helicopters Fuel would always be a problem. Logistis of armored vehicles is what would kill their chances, however I think that if mobilized quickly enough during a outbreak(first few hours possibly) and moved into possition to protect 'vital assets' that the chances of falling to a zombie outbreak are small. However the goverment recognizing and acting fast enough is going to be a problem(Katrina anyone?) Sooner or later all Fuel would run out, and all weapons to. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't try, if the outbreak is stopped fast enough, or atleast contained. Then well maybe we might have a chance. I think atleast.

[Svengoolie]

If you could get the undead all clumped up together in one place, rounds fired off from tanks might be effective. But, the only problem with that is that ghouls tend to congregate in highly populated areas--cities and towns....where armor like that is not very effective. If you want to see how well a tank corps performs in a heavily built up area like a city, see the Battle of Stalingrad for details. In terms of fuel, their intake is astounding, and if fuel stocks are unreliable, they'll be ineffective before too long if they're being used in the type of terrain they're built for--primarily rural areas.

[Exatreides]

Fire on the heavily populated town that needs to be cleared from afar, eithe trapping the dead in side/killing them/ or forcing them into streets. A few A-10 straffing runs ect. The town could be cleared rather easily with the need for red neck southerns and their shot gun militas to risk their necks trying to clear it . Tanks do Preform bad in Urban enviroments against HUMAN's who can shoot back. The dead however, lack the ability to return fire.

[Svengoolie]

Opening up on a heavily populated town will: A. Kill anyone alive that might be hiding there, causing more unnecessary casualties. B. Destroy any resources that town might possess which could aid the living survivors. The purpose of the Armed Forces in that situation wouldn't be to kill civilians and destroy supplies...it would be to save civilians and acquire supplies--the exact opposite effect of what you're suggesting. Tanks are ineffective in an urban enviornment because urban areas are built up with little room for those vehicles to maneuver--tanks are designed to fight primarily in open areas with lots of room to move around. There are cars and other debris on the streets....and while they can most certainly drive over it, doing so would cause much more destruction than necessary--run over cars, trucks, homes and gas mains could explode, the pavement will be ripped up, etc. And, those vehicles can easily become bogged down amoung the debris--especially if they're following your advice and blowing the crap out of everything. Hence, heavy armor would be pretty much ineffective in an LD situation.

[rikimaru]

this zombie outbreak may confuse the general public but i think the armed forces has the ability to orginaize before they would be so stranded and im sure we have tons of resever war time sullplies stored on bases. I think that the governemt would accept the living dead thing before the general public. 1 they may have caused it to begin with. 2 so many reports of the undead would come in the government would likely prepare for mass assault after the realize small fireteams wont work. 3 theres plent of airforce bases that are isolated from citys by many miles with no cemetarys nere by espeshally in california. So they could mobilize planes helis and such without interferance. i think the governemt could starve off total destruction. However the casualtys would be enormus. After order was eventually restored however danger would still be present because somtimes people who die arnt discovered for days at a time or weeks. Meaning we would have to live in a state of martial law forever with armed guards patroling everywhere and tabs kept on everyone simply for safty. humans would survive i think but it would be a crappy existence.

[Tullaryx]

I do believe the military as a whole would react and mobilize much faster than the civilian law enforcement and the government. But that's pretty much due to the military's ability to be self-sufficient within their respective bases and depots. The government on the other hand would take time to come up with a credible and doable plan to take care of the crisis. Case in point: last year's reaction to Katrina. The military was ready to help the moment they were asked to do so, but all civilian agencies dithered around and delayed from doing anything of substance by bureacracy and politics. I can see the same happening with a zombie outbreak that goes national.

[mista_mo]

Hell, with Katrina, there were Canadian rescue teams from Vancouver before American civilian rescue teams were there..it's ridiculous eh? Armour would most certainly be usless in a city (ever been to Toronto or Ottawa or Hamilton before? it's congested enough without car wrecks strewn everywhere, dead bodies piling up, walking corpses, building falling down and crumbling etc). Suppose, and imagine this if you will, a tank like a leapord mk.2 or the like, crumbling along through a city thats ruined, wrecks everywhere, road blocks up, corpses on the road etc. Wouldn't there be a danger that if the tank drives over something or a similar situation, that the tracks could mess up and come undone? I've heard about this happening before, and I think it's a risk that has to be accounted for. You'd have to haul ass to fix the tread, all the while the engine noise would be attracting undead. Eventually, they are going to reach the tank and everyone will be locked inside, and they will die from starvation, while the survivors will be far too weak to do anything to defend themselves when they turn. the entire crew would be killed. Now, it could happen, but I'll admit, i'm no expert on tanks at all, but I think it is a pretty feasible situation. Plus, if they are stuck where they are, all of their ammo will run out eventually, and since they can't move, they are screwed, and would have to abandon the thing. Personally, I can see tanks forming as temperary road blocks, that just happen to have a big friggin' cannon on em that can blow the **** outta zombies. That would probibly be their main purpose I think.

[EvilNed]

Whenever someone says "armor", I always think platemail, scalemail or chainmail. Heeey... A suit of chainmail wouldn't be that bad to have in a zombie situation!

[Eyebiter]

re: Armor Back in the 70's the US started to preposition heavy equipment overseas. Makes one wonder how many tanks and other armored vehicles are still inside the USA right now? Not to mention much of our obsolete equipment is either expended as targets, sold to friendly nations, or sunk in the ocean as artifical reefs. Add to that the American legions are currently scattered to the four winds, soldiers in South Korea, Europe, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Afghanistan. Think in any zombie crisis there would be a concentrated operation to bring troops back to the US. Question is would there be enough airlift or sealift capacity still functioning to bring back all of their equipment? Or would some of it be abandoned overseas? Re: military response speed Think it depends on what kind of living dead epidemic we are talking about. The military would react much differently in classic Night of the Living Dead scenario compared with a Dawn 04 fast zombie situation. Or for that matter, a 28 Days Later infected humans outbreak.