Is Miguel A Fool?

[jim102016]

So let's assume that rest - i.e. sitting idle - wouldn't have helped. Perhaps Rhodes should've had his men go up topside and clear the zombies off the fences. Give them some room to move outside, let them see the sun, and blow off some steam all at once. I just hate to see Miguel taking the brunt of the blame for the events of Day when Rhodes was shooting scientists in the head and throwing the non-military support staff to the zombies. Sounds like a therapeutic activity, but the idea may have blown up in their faces. They would have wasted what was left of their ammunition picking them off the fences, those within earshot of the noise would have come to replace them quickly. (Sarah said in the begining, "...More and more of them every day".) Could have started a zombie riot too, with the men so close to the fence they might have gone crazy, knocking the fence down in the process. First time I saw the movie I thought Miguel was going to do something crazy. But, bringing the dead down the elevator was more unexpected than Rhodes executing the civilians he spent his last days arguing with.

[Yojimbo]

i edited this post. previously i had described exactly what plato's allegory was but now i have thought better of it. i am not going to debate classical philosophy in this thread which is supposed to be about miguel nor am i going to feed into a certain new members rants. Wise choice sir. You are a better gentleman than I.

[SRP76]

There is an ignore feature here.

[Yojimbo]

Sure hate to do that, though, but nice to have as a last resort.

[AcesandEights]

Were the scientists helping? Well, exactly who was helping anyone else in that movie? It almost sounds like your asking if the scientists were helping the civilians and/or the military, but what were the remaining military elements and the civilian support personnel doing that was actually helpful or useful? The only useful thing I ever saw done from a problem solving standpoint in a disaster-scenario was the initial looking for survivors and scouting mission at the top of the movie, which was basically a joint effort.

[Trin]

My main point is that Miguel cannot be solely blamed for the downfall of the base. It's true that he didn't help matters. He was whiny, and stressed, and incompetent. But everyone knew that and could've accounted for it. The act of Miguel opening the gates is immaterial to the downfall of the base. It happened too late in the sequence of events. By that point Rhodes had already found out Dr. Logan, killed the other scientist, and had condemned the others to be eaten by zombies. He was already planning to take John and the chopper and leave. You can argue that if Miguel had been killed by someone inside the base much earlier things might have been better. But Rhodes was still threatening to shoot people, Dr. Logan was still feeding soldiers to the zombies, and the zombie collar that broke for Miguel was bound to break for someone else. If Sarah had killed Miguel when he became infected rather than chopped his arm off it's entirely possible that Rhodes would've succeeded in taking John to fly the chopper and killed all the rest at the zombie pen. Miguel activating the elevator distracted him.

[Yojimbo]

My main point is that Miguel cannot be solely blamed for the downfall of the base. It's true that he didn't help matters. He was whiny, and stressed, and incompetent. But everyone knew that and could've accounted for it. The act of Miguel opening the gates is immaterial to the downfall of the base. It happened too late in the sequence of events. By that point Rhodes had already found out Dr. Logan, killed the other scientist, and had condemned the others to be eaten by zombies. He was already planning to take John and the chopper and leave. You can argue that if Miguel had been killed by someone inside the base much earlier things might have been better. But Rhodes was still threatening to shoot people, Dr. Logan was still feeding soldiers to the zombies, and the zombie collar that broke for Miguel was bound to break for someone else. If Sarah had killed Miguel when he became infected rather than chopped his arm off it's entirely possible that Rhodes would've succeeded in taking John to fly the chopper and killed all the rest at the zombie pen. Miguel activating the elevator distracted him. Very interesting perspective! I still think that Miguel's final act was one of delusion and angry cowardice, however I think you are right on that his action, however inadvertently it might have been, actually saved John and the rest of the civilians. Miguel does in fact deserve to be recognized for that!

[SRP76]

I'm certain Miguel didn't think, "oh, the good guys are in the zombie pen! If I let every deadhead within a hundred miles in here, they'll be saved!". His goal had to have been to feed every single person in the base to the dead.

[Legion2213]

I'm certain Miguel didn't think, "oh, the good guys are in the zombie pen! If I let every deadhead within a hundred miles in here, they'll be saved!". His goal had to have been to feed every single person in the base to the dead. Yep, he was a selfish little twerp who decided to murder everybody in the base...even the likes of John & William who had done him no harm.

[Trin]

I'm certain Miguel didn't think, "oh, the good guys are in the zombie pen! If I let every deadhead within a hundred miles in here, they'll be saved!". I never said he did. I'm merely pointing out that if Miguel gets killed earlier the fate of the heroes is probably worse and, if anything, it lifts blame from him rather than placing it further on him. I'm still a believer that his final act was one of religion and repentance, which defies logic, friendship, and loyalty. But let's agree to disagree on that point. Here's my question. A lot of you are saying he should've been killed early on. What if Miguel didn't let the zombies in at the end? Would his character still have deserved to die earlier? Under what justification?

[SRP76]

Here's my question. A lot of you are saying he should've been killed early on. What if Miguel didn't let the zombies in at the end? Would his character still have deserved to die earlier? Under what justification? Yes, he should have. He is either part of the solution, or part of the problem. Since he is worthless, that makes him part of the problem. Getting rid of him would be one less hand in the supply bin, one less mouth eating up the food stores, one less focal point of jealousy among the sex-starved soldiers, and one less screwup capable of getting other people killed. I see no reason for him to live.

[DubiousComforts]

Yes, he should have. He is either part of the solution, or part of the problem. Since he is worthless, that makes him part of the problem. Sounds too much like "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists," and such black & white thinking is dangerous. By this line of reasoning, no one in the group could have been trusted, and all the soldiers were beyond redemption and should have been killed. I agree with Trin's perspective on Miguel "offering himself for judgment." As I said before, it was the only definitive action he took in the entire film. Additionally, we really have no idea if Miguel knew that he was murdering everyone in the base. As far as he knew, everyone had either killed each other, or Rhodes & company had killed the civilians and left the base.

[SRP76]

Sounds too much like "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists," and such black & white thinking is dangerous. By this line of reasoning, no one in the group could have been trusted, and all the soldiers were beyond redemption and should have been killed. All the other soldiers did their jobs. It isn't "trust". It's "use". Miguel didn't do his job - EVER.

[Mike70]

i think the main thing driving events in day toward destruction was the polarization among the different groups. no one wanted, nor even had the slightest interest, in working together. the different units had to function as a team and when that team concept started to breakdown the whole mass was doomed to failure. you have rhodes hanging on the idea of power. in a world shrunk to 12 people what does that matter? it doesn't. his inability to let his little dicked ego take a back seat to survival was deadly to the rest of the group. then there is logan. what the hell does it matter if you can make a few of the zombies behave? it doesn't. there are jillions of the them and you can't make them all behave. his point of view is drivel and nonsense in the extreme. sarah's need to "find an answer" is self-delusional and given the resources available not realistic at all. she is hanging onto the empirical past where everything can be stamped and deliniated into its proper category. all that has been blown away and the only that matters (which none of these characters seem to get) is surviving. then you have john and mcdermott not only do they not lend a hand in anything that doesn't strictly pertain to their "jobs" (again a meaningless concept in this format) they sequester themselves away from the rest of the group in their own private "honkey paradise" (in the words of one of the family from "the omega man"-yeah i know john was black, i'm not blind-it's just a funny phrase) the failure to work together and the failure to look past their own petty concerns is what doomed the folks in day.

[DubiousComforts]

All the other soldiers did their jobs. It isn't "trust". It's "use". Miguel didn't do his job - EVER. The other soldiers were never seen doing their jobs in the several days over which the movie took place. They were busy drinking, and growing/smoking weed while in a serious crisis situation. Miguel didn't almost kill Rickels--Steel and Rickels combined idiocy almost killed Rickels. Miguel was the convenient scapegoat for a group of dangerous loud-mouths. Pretty much everyone in the film was "useless" due to their conflicting agendas. Even the scientists couldn't let go of the past long enough to realize they were stuck in a "hopeless situation" (as Logan had said of the soldiers). The best strategy for survival would have been to avoid all of them.