army/marines accepting more felons...

[Mike70]

which isn't really surprising considering you'd have to be out of your f*cking mind to join the military under the present circumstances.

i think that even more people with felony backgrounds will be accepted into the military in the near future. the main reason being that a draft just isn't going to happen. i am a veteran myself and a draft is something that i am ultra opposed to. in fact, the very idea of the govt. actually being able to force people into military service who don't want to be there is something that i reject completely.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/middleeast/la-na-recruits22apr22,1,4298079.story?track=rss

[axlish]

I have always thought that people in prison should be used as soldiers, but not pedophiles and certain behavioral types, but definitely all white collar criminals.

As for the draft, it should have never gone away. It became unpopular during the Vietnam era for obvious reasons, but weak politicians folded under pressure and got rid of something that was the backbone of our country since the get go.

[EvilNed]

Anyone who is for conscription is opposed to the idea of freedom and liberty. Plain and simple.

[Mike70]

As for the draft, it should have never gone away.

:stunned:

why should anyone be forced into the military that doesn't want to be there? i see no sense nor moral reason in conscription at all. the govt. has absolutely no right to force young people into situations where they might have to kill other people. none whatsoever.

[axlish]

:stunned:

why should anyone be forced into the military that doesn't want to be there? i see no sense nor moral reason in conscription at all. the govt. has absolutely no right to force young people into situations where they might have to kill other people. none whatsoever.

Because freedom isn't free.

Without a draft we run into the problem we have now. I don't approve of folks staying for extended periods of time with no reinforcements on the way, or having the National Guard over there. With a draft, you do your two years and get out.

[Danny]

As for the draft, it should have never gone away.

that just plain is a bad idea, you could have someone just not made for the military out there defending your right to sit at home in an easy chair and theres no guarantee they will be made of the right stuff, god knows i wouldn't be, and im not saying they should be felt sorry for, but rather your forcing people who are much more likely to fail at defending your country defending it.

not a smart idea by any means.

[axlish]

that just plain is a bad idea, you could have someone just not made for the military out there defending your right to sit at home in an easy chair and theres no guarantee they will be made of the right stuff, god knows i wouldn't be, and im not saying they should be felt sorry for, but rather your forcing people who are much more likely to fail at defending your country defending it.

not a smart idea by any means.

My father-in-law was refused for Vietnam because he had a bad knee and he was overweight. They don't accept everyone, just the ones they deem capable.

[Mike70]

Because freedom isn't free.

Without a draft we run into the problem we have now. I don't approve of folks staying for extended periods of time with no reinforcements on the way, or having the National Guard over there. With a draft, you do your two years and get out.

that is a cliche, pure and simple. freedom ought to be free and maybe if people worldwide refused to be drafted into armies and fight/kill because politicians say it is some "duty" that they owe, the world would be a far better place.

i don't "owe" the govt. anything - it owes me. we aren't here to serve the country, it ought to be here to serve us.

no one should be forced into a situation against their will where they might have to kill other people. that is morally reprehensible as far as i am concerned.

[axlish]

no one should be forced into a situation against their will where they might have to kill other people. that is morally reprehensible as far as i am concerned.

I didn't disagree with this. According to the selective service...

A conscientious objector is one who is opposed to serving in the armed forces and/or bearing arms on the grounds of moral or religious principles.
...
Beliefs which qualify a registrant for CO status may be religious in nature, but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical; however, a man's reasons for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency, or self-interest. In general, the man's lifestyle prior to making his claim must reflect his current claims.

I am opposed to the draft being reinstated. It is gone and really cannot be brought back because of the precedent that was set by our governing bodies. If it had stayed in effect, we could have tweaked it and made it more fair. In stead, our volunteer only force must stay in combat scenarios for way too long. One day, our volunteer military could be rendered insignificant and we'd have to resort to more dratic tactics that no one would approve of.

Freedom is not free Scipio. Efforts and sacrifices were made to attain it, and now we must fight to continue it.

You are correct though, freedom ought to be free, I totally agree with that. Unfortunately we don't live in a vacuum.

[Marie]

Because freedom isn't free.

Neither is Freedom purchased with slavery. Freedom is bought with the blood of the free willingly given. Conscription is against our founding principals.

M_

[axlish]

Neither is Freedom purchased with slavery. Freedom is bought with the blood of the free willingly given. Conscription is against our founding principals.

M_

It has been deemed constitutional by the Supreme Court and lower appellates.

[SRP76]

It's nice to live in a country where we don't actually have to risk our own asses for all the rights and freedoms we enjoy.

It seems everyone wants all these things just handed, but balks at the idea of actually doing something to earn them. If it weren't for the government in place, backed by the military, everyone would be in a "fend for yourself" position against anyone and everyone. How long do you think those "automatic" rights would hold up then? I give it 5 minutes, before someone moves in an attempts to subjugate you (or outright kill you).

[DubiousComforts]

It seems everyone wants all these things just handed, but balks at the idea of actually doing something to earn them.
Do the freeloaders include all the homosexuals wishing to serve their country, but aren't allowed? God Bless America!

[EvilNed]

It has been deemed constitutional by the Supreme Court and lower appellates.

So you don't like thinking for yourself, then?

No matter what the Supreme Court says. It's slavery, pure and simple. And you know what the Supreme Court said about slavery?

[MikePizzoff]

Without a draft we run into the problem we have now.

Uh! You mean the problem we have right now of people that are WILLING to take the chance are actually dying? So you think that it should be a mixture of people willing to die and people that don't want any part in it? I don't agree with that at all.

But, to each their own.

[Publius]

As for the draft, it should have never gone away. It became unpopular during the Vietnam era for obvious reasons, but weak politicians folded under pressure and got rid of something that was the backbone of our country since the get go.

"Since the get go"? Most of the Founding Fathers were horrified by the idea of a standing army, let alone a draft. There was no draft in the U.S. until the Civil War. It lasted only during the war and was still very unpopular. Then it came back for the duration of World War I. We didn't have a peacetime draft until 1940. And the last conscript was drafted in December, 1972. So 32 years of the draft (4+ of which were during World War II) is "the backbone of our country since the get go"?

I could see reinstating a universal militia system like the Founding Fathers had, but the feds can't deploy the militia overseas. Other than that, the only time I would even consider a national draft would be during a total war when the country is fully mobilized, like World War II.

[axlish]

"Since the get go"? Most of the Founding Fathers were horrified by the idea of a standing army, let alone a draft. There was no draft in the U.S. until the Civil War. It lasted only during the war and was still very unpopular. Then it came back for the duration of World War I. We didn't have a peacetime draft until 1940. And the last conscript was drafted in December, 1972. So 32 years of the draft (4+ of which were during World War II) is "the backbone of our country since the get go"?

I could see reinstating a universal militia system like the Founding Fathers had, but the feds can't deploy the militia overseas. Other than that, the only time I would even consider a national draft would be during a total war when the country is fully mobilized, like World War II.

Ok, you got me there, I did overstate it.

The problem with your draft strategy is that a draft is only going to be as popular as the regime. Even during a popular regime, I imagine that there would still be riots and it would be counterproductive as a whole. The draft is gone and it isn't coming back. If it had remained the entire time, it would be much more tolerable right now. It could have been tweaked to make up for the financial divide and to greater compensate for religious grievances.

[SymphonicX]

Seems like i'm with the majority too - a draft is not only an infringement of civil liberty, but is morally reprehensible at best, brutal and dictatorial at worst.

Drafts are there to appease those who are never likely to be drafted, or those so bitter at being drafted in the past that they feel everyone should have to go through it. It's unrealistic, inhumane and just plain stupid.

I'd go to prison....yep....I'd do time rather than serve in even the most honourable of military bodies....unless of course I was being invaded, but it would entirely be my decision.

[MikePizzoff]

I'd go to prison....yep....I'd do time rather than serve in even the most honourable of military bodies....unless of course I was being invaded, but it would entirely be my decision.

I'd be walkin that line with you, man.

[SymphonicX]

"walkin' the mile....he's walkin' the mile..."

[Terran]

I'd go to prison....yep....I'd do time rather than serve in even the most honourable of military bodies....unless of course I was being invaded, but it would entirely be my decision.

Well Id for one would rather run than go to prison :D.... If we were being invaded I would be much more prone to join....though tactically us being invaded is not very feasible....theres just so many people with guns....:cool:

[rightwing401]

Here's another problem with a draft. You may effectively increase the quantity of your forces, but overall, it's almost guaranteed that the quality of those soldiers is bound to drop.
Lesser trained and motivated troops will in turn equal higher casualties. I have yet to meet a single enlisted person who likes the idea of a draft. A buddy of mine going into the army once told me that he'd rather have a handful of guys ready and willing to be by his side than a whole platoon of dudes that have no desire to be there with him where ever he would end up.
These new reforms to the military are really starting to concern me. The military already lowered some of the other higher standards that they had before the war began to make up for low recruitment. If they're having to do this, and it still doesn't help, then who knows where they'll stop.
What really scares me is the thought of them deciding to form whole squads or platoons of foreign nationals to serve in the military in return for citizenship.

[Marie]

It has been deemed constitutional by the Supreme Court and lower appellates.

So was slavery at one time. So was deneying the vote to women. The courts can change.

M_

[SymphonicX]

Wait...you mean they can vote now??? When did that happen!!?!?

hehehe

[Publius]

What really scares me is the thought of them deciding to form whole squads or platoons of foreign nationals to serve in the military in return for citizenship.

On the other hand, the Foreign Legion has worked out pretty well for France.


So was slavery at one time. So was deneying the vote to women. The courts can change.

M_

Those did not become unconstitutional through court interpretation, though. They became unconstitutional through constitutional amendments.

[rightwing401]

On the other hand, the Foreign Legion has worked out pretty well for France.

Right, and right now they're in the beginning stages of a civil war.

And whole units of foreign troops worked out really well for the Romans too. Until, that is, the foreign troops decided they could get a lot more out of plundering Rome than serving as allies.

[EvilNed]

Right, and right now they're in the beginning stages of a civil war.

The US Army conscripts troops, and now the country is suffering a economic collapse.

See? I used the same kind of logic that you did.

[rightwing401]

My logic would have made sense if I had better explained it.

I wasn't talking about the Foreign Legion itself. I was talking about what it represents. A country shouldn't have people of other nationalities fighting for them. If you eventually get enough of them serving at the same time, that creates a potential problem. And if the things that are keeping them loyal disappear or become scarce, they might just start wondering why they need to keep their alligence. When they have the same kind of weapons and training as the host nation's armed forces, and enough numbers, there's likely to be a bloodbath.

The comment about the possible civil war brewing in France is only slightly relevent to this thred, and I should have never bothered to bring it up.

[Mike70]

Here's another problem with a draft. You may effectively increase the quantity of your forces, but overall, it's almost guaranteed that the quality of those soldiers is bound to drop.


that is the second main reason i am opposed to a draft. i am a veteran myself and the last thing i would want in an dangerous situation is some schleprock who didn't want to be there, was unmotivated and was thinking about his own ass first having my back.

that and i think that forcing someone into a situation where they would have to kill someone (or be killed) against their will is morally reprehensible.

[Exatreides]

The draft seems to be working pretty well for Israel....

The stress multiple deployments put on soldiers and their families is great. On the news of my units next deployment, you could tell that the majority of the company that had already been over was not fond of the idea.

More troops means more down time and less deployments, and more boots on the ground.

I get $2500 person that I as an E-4 Specialist every time I manage to enlist someone in the National Guard. I also got promoted from E-1 to E-3 because of this as well. One of the people I enlisted is currently serving in Iraq as 11B Infantry, he's a friend of mine.

[Tied2thetracks]

which isn't really surprising considering you'd have to be out of your f*cking mind to join the military under the present circumstances.

i think that even more people with felony backgrounds will be accepted into the military in the near future. the main reason being that a draft just isn't going to happen. i am a veteran myself and a draft is something that i am ultra opposed to. in fact, the very idea of the govt. actually being able to force people into military service who don't want to be there is something that i reject completely.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/middleeast/la-na-recruits22apr22,1,4298079.story?track=rss

Lets take some more felons. In todays economy are they even going to be able to flip burgers? Child molesters and other evil people should not be elgible. If some kid was 17 and knocked up his 15 year old GF or tried walking off from a grocery store job with a $1000 i don't want to crucify them. Give people who mades stupid ass decisions a second shot at being productive, doing somthing that I don't think I could.

[Khardis]

I am personally against the draft, I think when you run a draft you end up with the dregs of society serving in a conflict they don't wish to be a part of. In other words you are using inferior soldiers who were trained in a rush.

The only time I would accept a draft would be if a foreign power was attempting to land on our lands and occupy our nation. in which case I would already be out there with my rifles and handguns. But a draft for Iraq? or even Vietnam? Bad use of government power.

[Mike70]

Lets take some more felons. In todays economy are they even going to be able to flip burgers? Child molesters and other evil people should not be elgible. If some kid was 17 and knocked up his 15 year old GF or tried walking off from a grocery store job with a $1000 i don't want to crucify them. Give people who mades stupid ass decisions a second shot at being productive, doing somthing that I don't think I could.

agreed. the military just might sort out a few of these fools and turn them into actual people.

i am not against the jail or military thing (i'd think folks in that situation would be rather motivated) just against the draft.


The only time I would accept a draft would be if a foreign power was attempting to land on our lands and occupy our nation. in which case I would already be out there with my rifles and handguns. But a draft for Iraq? or even Vietnam? Bad use of government power.

word. you and i don't agree on a lot but on this we are on the same page. a draft in this situation would be more akin to a levee en masse but anyway, i totally agree, an invader would get me out in the street with my shooting irons going full blaze.