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Neil
29-Aug-2008, 09:27 AM
05 April 2008
From New Scientist Print Edition.
Debora MacKenzie
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/mg19826501.400-could-a-pandemic-bring-down-civilisation.html

FOR years we have been warned that a pandemic is coming. It could be flu, it could be something else. We know that lots of people will die. As terrible as this will be, on an ever more crowded planet, you can't help wondering whether the survivors might be better off in some ways. Wouldn't it be easier to rebuild modern society into something more sustainable if, perish the thought, there were fewer of us.

Yet would life ever return to something resembling normal after a devastating pandemic? Virologists sometimes talk about their nightmare scenarios - a plague like ebola or smallpox - as "civilisation ending". Surely they are exaggerating. Aren't they?

Many people dismiss any talk of collapse as akin to the street-corner prophet warning that the end is nigh. In the past couple of centuries, humanity has innovated its way past so many predicted plagues, famines and wars - from Malthus to Dr Strangelove - that anyone who takes such ideas seriously tends to be labeled a doom-monger.

There is a widespread belief that our society has achieved a scale, complexity and level of innovation that make it immune from collapse. "It's an argument so ingrained both in our subconscious and in public discourse that it has assumed the status of objective reality," writes biologist and geographer Jared Diamond of the University of California, Los Angeles, author of the 2005 book Collapse. "We think we are different."

Ever more vulnerable

A growing number of researchers, however, are coming to the conclusion that far from becoming ever more resilient, our society is becoming ever more vulnerable (see page 30). In a severe pandemic, the disease might only be the start of our problems.

No scientific study has looked at whether a pandemic with a high mortality could cause social collapse - at least none that has been made public. The vast majority of plans for weathering a pandemic all fail even to acknowledge that crucial systems might collapse, let alone take it into account.

There have been many pandemics before, of course. In 1348, the Black Death killed about a third of Europe's population. Its impact was huge, but European civilisation did not collapse. After the Roman empire was hit by a plague with a similar death rate around AD 170, however, the empire tipped into a downward spiral towards collapse. Why the difference? In a word: complexity.

In the 14th century, Europe was a feudal hierarchy in which more than 80 per cent of the population were peasant farmers. Each death removed a food producer, but also a consumer, so there was little net effect. "In a hierarchy, no one is so vital that they can't be easily replaced," says Yaneer Bar-Yam, head of the New England Complex Systems Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts. "Monarchs died, but life went on."

Individuals matter

The Roman empire was also a hierarchy, but with a difference: it had a huge urban population - not equalled in Europe until modern times - which depended on peasants for grain, taxes and soldiers. "Population decline affected agriculture, which affected the empire's ability to pay for the military, which made the empire less able to keep invaders out," says anthropologist and historian Joseph Tainter at the University of Utah. "Invaders in turn further weakened peasants and agriculture."

A high-mortality pandemic could trigger a similar result now, Tainter says. "Fewer consumers mean the economy would contract, meaning fewer jobs, meaning even fewer consumers. Loss of personnel in key industries would hurt too."

Bar-Yam thinks the loss of key people would be crucial. "Losing pieces indiscriminately from a highly complex system is very dangerous," he says. "One of the most profound results of complex systems research is that when systems are highly complex, individuals matter."

The same conclusion has emerged from a completely different source: tabletop "simulations" in which political and economic leaders work through what would happen as a hypothetical flu pandemic plays out. "One of the big 'Aha!' moments is always when company leaders realise how much they need key people," says Paula Scalingi, who runs pandemic simulations for the Pacific Northwest economic region of the US. "People are the critical infrastructure."

Vital hubs

Especially vital are "hubs" - the people whose actions link all the rest. Take truck drivers. When a strike blocked petrol deliveries from the UK's oil refineries for 10 days in 2000, nearly a third of motorists ran out of fuel, some train and bus services were cancelled, shops began to run out of food, hospitals were reduced to running minimal services, hazardous waste piled up, and bodies went unburied. Afterwards, a study by Alan McKinnon of Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh, UK, predicted huge economic losses and a rapid deterioration in living conditions if all road haulage in the UK shut down for just a week.

What would happen in a pandemic when many truckers are sick, dead or too scared to work? Even if a pandemic is relatively mild, many might have to stay home to care for sick family or look after children whose schools are closed. Even a small impact on road haulage would quickly have severe knock-on effects.

One reason is just-in-time delivery. Over the past few decades, people who use or sell commodities from coal to aspirin have stopped keeping large stocks, because to do so is expensive. They rely instead on frequent small deliveries.

Cities typically have only three days' worth of food, and the old saying about civilisations being just three or four meals away from anarchy is taken seriously by security agencies such as MI5 in the UK. In the US, plans for dealing with a pandemic call for people to keep three weeks' worth of food and water stockpiled. Some planners think everyone should have at least 10 weeks' worth. How long would your stocks last if shops emptied and your water supply dried up? Even if everyone were willing, US officials warn that many people might not be able to afford to stockpile enough food.

Two-day supply

Hospitals rely on daily deliveries of drugs, blood and gases. "Hospital pandemic plans fixate on having enough ventilators," says public health specialist Michael Osterholm at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis, who has been calling for broader preparation for a pandemic. "But they'll run out of oxygen to put through them first. No hospital has more than a two-day supply." Equally critical is chlorine for water purification plants.

It's not only absentee truck drivers that could cripple the transport system; new drivers can be drafted in and trained fairly quickly, after all. Trucks need fuel, too. What if staff at the refineries that produce it don't show up for work?

"We think that if we can make people feel safe about coming to work, we'll have about 25 per cent staff absences if we get a flu pandemic like the one in 1918," says Jon Lay, head of global emergency preparedness for ExxonMobil. If that happens, then by postponing non-essential tasks, and making sure crucial suppliers also hang tough, "we can maintain the supply of products that are critical to society".

Some models, however, suggest absenteeism sparked by a 1918-type pandemic could cut the workforce by half at the peak of a pandemic wave. "If we have 50 per cent absences, it's a different story," says Lay, who says his company has not modelled the impact of absence on that scale. And what if a pandemic is worse than 1918?

Critical infrastructure

All the companies that provide the critical infrastructure of modern society - energy, transport, food, water, telecoms - face similar problems if key workers fail to turn up. According to US industry sources, one electricity supplier in Texas is teaching its employees "virus avoidance techniques" in the hope that they will then "experience a lower rate of flu onset and mortality" than the general population.

The fact is that the best way for people to avoid the virus will be to stay home. But if everyone does this - or if too many people try to stockpile supplies after a crisis begins - the impact of even a relatively minor pandemic could quickly multiply.

Planners for pandemics tend to overlook the fact that modern societies are becoming ever more tightly connected, which means any disturbance can cascade rapidly through many sectors. For instance, many businesses - including New Scientist's parent company - have contingency plans that count on some people working online from home. Models show there won't be enough bandwidth to meet demand, says Scalingi.

And what if the power goes off? This is where the complex interdependencies could prove disastrous. Refineries make diesel fuel not only for trucks but also for the trains that deliver coal to electricity generators, which now usually have only 20 days' reserve supply, Osterholm notes. Coal-fired plants supply 30 per cent of the UK's electricity, 50 per cent of the US's and 85 per cent of Australia's.

Powerless

The coal mines need electricity to keep working. Pumping oil through pipelines and water through mains also requires electricity. Making electricity depends largely on coal; getting coal depends on electricity; they all need refineries and key people; the people need transport, food and clean water. If one part of the system starts to fail, the whole lot could go. Hydro and nuclear power are less vulnerable to disruptions in supply, but they still depend on highly trained staff.

With no electricity, shops will be unable to keep food refrigerated even if they get deliveries. Their tills won't work either. Many consumers won't be able to cook what food they do have. With no chlorine, water-borne diseases could strike just as it becomes hard to boil water. Communications could start to break down as radio and TV broadcasters, phone systems and the internet fall victim to power cuts and absent staff. This could cripple the global financial system, right down to local cash machines, and will greatly complicate attempts to maintain order and get systems up and running again.

Even if we manage to struggle through the first few weeks of a pandemic, long-term problems could build up without essential maintenance and supplies. Many of these problems could take years to work their way through the system. For instance, with no fuel and markets in disarray, how do farmers get the next harvest in and distributed?

Closing borders

As a plague takes hold, some countries may be tempted to close their borders. But quarantine is not an option any more. "These days, no country is self-sufficient for everything," says Lay. "The worst mistake governments could make is to isolate themselves." The port of Singapore, a crucial shipping hub, plans to close in a pandemic only as a last resort, he says. Yet action like this might not be enough to prevent international trade being paralysed as other ports close for fear of contagion or for lack of workers, as ships' crews sicken and exporters' assembly lines grind to a halt without their own staff, power, transport or fuel and supplies.

Osterholm warns that most medical equipment and 85 per cent of US pharmaceuticals are made abroad, and this is just the start. Consider food packaging. Milk might be delivered to dairies if the cows get milked and there is fuel for the trucks and power for refrigeration, but it will be of little use if milk carton factories have ground to a halt or the cartons are an ocean away.

"No one in pandemic planning thinks enough about supply chains," says Osterholm. "They are long and thin, and they can break." When Toronto was hit by SARS in 2003, the major surgical mask manufacturers sent everything they had, he says. "If it had gone on much longer they would have run out."

The trend is for supply chains to get ever longer, to take advantage of economies of scale and the availability of cheap labour. Big factories produce goods more cheaply than small ones, and they can do so even more cheaply in countries where labour is cheap.

Flawed assumptions

Lay points to recent hurricanes in the US and the 2005 fire at the Buncefield oil depot in the UK as examples of severe disruptions to the normal supply chain. In all of these instances, he points out, supplies from refineries were maintained. But those disasters were localised, and help could come from unaffected places nearby.

Disaster planners usually focus on single-point events of this kind: industrial accidents, hurricanes or even a nuclear attack. But a pandemic happens everywhere at the same time, rendering many such plans useless. "There are numerous assumptions behind our conclusions," Lay admits. "If they prove to be flawed, we could struggle."

The main assumption is how serious a pandemic could be. Many national plans are based on mortality rates from the mild 1957 and 1968 pandemics. "No government pandemic plans consider the possibility that the death rate might be higher than in 1918," says Tim Sly of Ryerson University in Toronto, Canada.

Even a rerun of 1918 could be bad enough. In a 2006 study, economist Warwick McKibbin of the Lowry Institute for International Policy in Sydney, Australia, and colleagues based their "worst-case" scenario on the same death rate as in 1918. The result, their model predicts, would be 142 million deaths worldwide, leading to a massive global economic slowdown that would wipe out 12.6 per cent of global GDP.

Death rate

This scenario assumes around 3 three per cent of those who fall ill die. Of all the people known to have caught H5N1 bird flu so far, 63 per cent have died. "It seems negligent to assume that H5N1, if it goes pandemic, will necessarily become less deadly," says Sly. And flu is far from the only viral threat we face.

The ultimate question is this: what if a pandemic does have huge knock-on effects? What if many key people die, and many global balancing acts are disrupted? Could we get things up and running again? "Much would depend on the extent of the population decline," says Tainter. "Possibilities range from little effect to a mild recession to a major depression to a collapse."

DjfunkmasterG
29-Aug-2008, 12:19 PM
I actually work for one of the 5 largest bio-pharmaceutical companies in the world, and I can tell you that a flu pandemic is nothing to be concerned about. We have 500,000 sq ft. Manufacturing facility working 24/7 making vaccines and antibiotics for something like the flu pandemic. If something were to happen, the loss of life would be minimal because of the logistics in place to handle a flu pandemic catastrophe. The US government retained us for the flu pandemic manufacturing process, and other countries have done the same.

I would be more worried about some unknown, un-heard of disease or virus, not the flu.

Mike70
29-Aug-2008, 12:28 PM
as for ebola, it kills so rapidly that the chances of it spreading through a large population are probably quite small. esp. since it is spread by contact with contaminated bodily fluids.

the thing that worries me is that so many dickheads are not getting their children vaccinated against things like the measles anymore because of bullsh*t they hear on the internet. in fact, there are people who are actually exposing their kids to measles on purpose, in the idiotic belief that it is just a rash and a fever. it isn't. measles have probably killed a couple of hundred million people in the last 2 centuries or so. the complications are deadly.

Neil
29-Aug-2008, 01:49 PM
I actually work for one of the 5 largest bio-pharmaceutical companies in the world, and I can tell you that a flu pandemic is nothing to be concerned about. We have 500,000 sq ft. Manufacturing facility working 24/7 making vaccines and antibiotics for something like the flu pandemic. If something were to happen, the loss of life would be minimal because of the logistics in place to handle a flu pandemic catastrophe. The US government retained us for the flu pandemic manufacturing process, and other countries have done the same.

I would be more worried about some unknown, un-heard of disease or virus, not the flu.

H15N is mostly fatal... Is there even a vaccine for it, yet alone a mutated strain that's lept to humans?

DjfunkmasterG
29-Aug-2008, 02:48 PM
We are working on all strains. Avian, common, mutated, all of it. The company I work for actually makes a flu vaccine that uses the live virus to fit it off.

Keep in mind I can't go into huge specifics, but just to work int he office part of the flu building you have to be vaccinated.

Neil
29-Aug-2008, 03:10 PM
We are working on all strains. Avian, common, mutated, all of it. The company I work for actually makes a flu vaccine that uses the live virus to fit it off.

Keep in mind I can't go into huge specifics, but just to work int he office part of the flu building you have to be vaccinated.

OK, so you're sorted... But what about the UK population for example...

Eyebiter
29-Aug-2008, 03:45 PM
The problem with trying to make a flu vaccine is your in a guessing game. Some years the CDC does well and the flu shot is effective. Other years they guess wrong and it's useless.In a catastrophic pandemic scenario your looking at six months before large scale production of any vaccine can be distributed. That's assuming a cure can be developed in the first place.

Skippy911sc
29-Aug-2008, 05:49 PM
I smell 28 days later type catastrophe. You Brits are a crazy lot!

DubiousComforts
29-Aug-2008, 06:18 PM
the complications are deadly.
Apparently, the complications from taking the measles vaccine seem to be just as deadly.

Mike70
29-Aug-2008, 06:35 PM
Apparently, the complications from taking the measles vaccine seem to be just as deadly.

only in the minds of some folks. there is zero evidence linking it to autism. the orginal article published in the lancet was fatally flawed on a number of points, one of them being that the writer, andrew wakefield, had conducted his research using grant money from a firm embroiled in a lawsuit with one of the makers of the MMR vaccine. again, there is zero causality between MMR and autism.



In the UK, the MMR vaccine was the subject of controversy after publication of a 1998 paper by Andrew Wakefield et al. reporting a study of twelve children who had autism spectrum disorders and bowel symptoms, in many cases with onset observed soon after administration of MMR vaccine.[23] During a 1998 press conference, Wakefield suggested that giving children the vaccines in three separate doses would be safer than a single jab. This suggestion was not supported by the paper, and several subsequent peer-reviewed studies have failed to show any association between the vaccine and autism.[24] Administering the vaccines in three separate doses does not reduce the chance of adverse effects, and it increases the opportunity for infection by the two diseases not immunized against first.[24][25] Health experts have criticized media reporting of the MMR-autism controversy for triggering a decline in vaccination rates.[26] In 2007 Wakefield became the subject of a General Medical Council disciplinary hearing over allegations that his research had received funding related to litigation against MMR-vaccine manufacturers, and had concealed this fact from the editors of The Lancet.[27]

In 2004, after an investigation by The Sunday Times,[28] the interpretation section of the study, which identified a general association in time between the vaccine and autism, was formally retracted by ten of Wakefield's twelve coauthors.[29] The Centers for Disease Control,[30] the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences,[31] the UK National Health Service[32] and the Cochrane Library review[9] have all concluded that there is no evidence of a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.


there is risk with any vaccine but usually the risk runs into the 100,000s or even millions to 1. in contracting real measles, those risks are lowered to 1,000s to 1 or even lower.

Yojimbo
30-Aug-2008, 10:14 PM
Very scary stuff! You have given us something very serious to consider. We all like to imagine what would happen if the dead started to rise, however a pandemic of these proportions is actually possible, unlike a ghoul apocalypse.


Thanks Neil for some very scary but important issues to ponder.

darth los
31-Aug-2008, 12:50 AM
No matter what or how it happens it's virtually garanteed that the human race won't be here forever. We don't like to think so but whether it's from nature or whether we do it ourselves no species lasts forever.:(

bassman
31-Aug-2008, 01:21 AM
No matter what or how it happens it's virtually garanteed that the human race won't be here forever. We don't like to think so but whether it's from nature or whether we do it ourselves no species lasts forever.:(

I would have to go out on a limb and say that anyone who thinks we'll be here forever is a moron. Or WAY too deep into religion. Either/or...

darth los
31-Aug-2008, 01:30 AM
I would have to go out on a limb and say that anyone who thinks we'll be here forever is a moron. Or WAY too deep into religion. Either/or...

If you think about it, throughout the overly religious are the main ones who speak about the end of times. Like it MUST happen in order to fufill God's will.

Bub666
31-Aug-2008, 03:13 AM
No matter what or how it happens it's virtually garanteed that the human race won't be here forever. We don't like to think so but whether it's from nature or whether we do it ourselves no species lasts forever.:(

Yeah,I have to agree with you.

Neil
31-Aug-2008, 05:59 AM
No matter what or how it happens it's virtually garanteed that the human race won't be here forever. We don't like to think so but whether it's from nature or whether we do it ourselves no species lasts forever.:(

Depends...

If we get another one or two thousand years before being dealt a bum-hand, we could well being independant of earth, therefore meaning we're far more safe from a single event wiping us out...

Legion2213
31-Aug-2008, 07:27 PM
Depends...

If we get another one or two thousand years before being dealt a bum-hand, we could well being independant of earth, therefore meaning we're far more safe from a single event wiping us out...

Indeed, that's why space travel and colonization is so important, any race that hits the stars massively improves it's survival chances with every world they settle on...I always get angry at those folks who moan about the billions spent of space research that should "go to the hungry third world folk". They are unable to see the big picture and lack long term vision.

As for humans being totally wiped out by a pandemic, I don't see it, we were down to about 10.000 souls after the last ice age I believe. Even something that wiped out 99.9% of the human population would leave us in a reasonable position to start over (IMO).

MoonSylver
31-Aug-2008, 08:02 PM
As for humans being totally wiped out by a pandemic, I don't see it, we were down to about 10.000 souls after the last ice age I believe. Even something that wiped out 99.9% of the human population would leave us in a reasonable position to start over (IMO).

True. But what we're talking about is the collapse of civilization, not necessarily the extinction of the species. We could start over, maybe even rebuild to what was, perhaps even something better or at least different, but with that kind of death toll society as we know it would collapse because there just wouldn't be enough manpower to support the complex infrastructure we've created.

Legion2213
31-Aug-2008, 08:36 PM
True. But what we're talking about is the collapse of civilization, not necessarily the extinction of the species. We could start over, maybe even rebuild to what was, perhaps even something better or at least different, but with that kind of death toll society as we know it would collapse because there just wouldn't be enough manpower to support the complex infrastructure we've created.

Yeah, fair comment, I should have read the article instead of just jumping in after Neils last post. It doesn't paint a pretty picture.

Neil
31-Aug-2008, 09:17 PM
True. But what we're talking about is the collapse of civilization, not necessarily the extinction of the species. We could start over, maybe even rebuild to what was, perhaps even something better or at least different, but with that kind of death toll society as we know it would collapse because there just wouldn't be enough manpower to support the complex infrastructure we've created.

True, but if it happens in a hundred years or so, a serious restart will be VERY hard with no fossil fuels to give us a leg up technology wise!

CornishCorpse
31-Aug-2008, 10:41 PM
Unless we have the technology to make synthetic fuels on a mass scale?

sandrock74
01-Sep-2008, 06:12 AM
I think what we have to look out for is when we start sending astronauts to Mars. Who knows what they could pick up there and bring back here with them? Not being a naturally occuring earth disease, we could be in big trouble.

As for anything earth born, humanity will always survive. Some people will always have a natural immunity ala Typhoid Mary or the Black Plague. Its something of a miracle that humanity survived the Plague as it killed off HALF the population of Europe! Imagine if that happened now? Half the worlds population would be 3 BILLION people dieing! Bodies would have to be burned in the streets to keep additional disease down to a minimum. Jobs all over the place would be abandoned. Economies would crumble.

Thats exactly what happened during the Black Plague and humanity still survived. Some people caught the Plague and survived it (although they were never really the same afterwards) and some people never caught it. You got to love them anti-bodies!

Neil
01-Sep-2008, 08:19 AM
Unless we have the technology to make synthetic fuels on a mass scale?

Technology is a house of cards... It's rather hard to put the top layer on without the bottom ones there to stand it on...

_liam_
01-Sep-2008, 06:02 PM
It's strange to think that, advances in medical science aside, our civilisation has actually never been more vulnerable to a pandemic than it is right now...

The only cards we really have to play in such a crisis are medical science & communications technology, but all that is dependant on society's infrastructure, which would topple easily under the toll of a few million deaths.

Scary stuff indeed

DeadJonas190
01-Sep-2008, 06:19 PM
I think what we have to look out for is when we start sending astronauts to Mars. Who knows what they could pick up there and bring back here with them? Not being a naturally occuring earth disease, we could be in big trouble.


And on that same note, what are the chances that an alien virus or what not is even compatable with our biology? Like you said, it could be devestating if it were compatable with us, but chances would be slim that it would be.

Kaos
02-Sep-2008, 03:37 AM
H15N is mostly fatal... Is there even a vaccine for it, yet alone a mutated strain that's lept to humans?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124185522.htm

Leave it to Neil to worry like a ninny. :p

Just relax and breathe deeply.;)

Neil
02-Sep-2008, 07:49 AM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080124185522.htm

Leave it to Neil to worry like a ninny. :p

Just relax and breathe deeply.;)

Sorry, how is that suppose to put my mind at rest? It doesn't help with H5N1 (yet)? Unless I misread it?

Kaos
02-Sep-2008, 11:45 AM
Sorry, how is that suppose to put my mind at rest? It doesn't help with H5N1 (yet)? Unless I misread it?

Given the following quote from the article:


Acambis also tested whether an M2-based vaccination could protect ferrets from a deadly infection by the highly lethal avian H5N1 influenza strain "Vietnam 2004". 70% of the vaccinated animals survived, while all the placebo-treated animals succumbed to the viral infection.


Michael Watson, Acambis Executive Vice President, Research & Development, said: “M2e is one of the most discussed new approaches for universal influenza vaccination. These are exciting data as they show that our ACAM-FLU-ATM vaccine can generate a robust M2e antibody response and that M2e-based vaccines can protect against H5N1 avian influenza. We believe that these results confirm we have an approach worthy of further development.”
Oh, yeah. I think there is reason for hope along this line of research. Is it a cure? Nope. Does it look like they may be on to something? Most certainly.

Neil
02-Sep-2008, 12:17 PM
Given the following quote from the article:

Oh, yeah. I think there is reason for hope along this line of research. Is it a cure? Nope. Does it look like they may be on to something? Most certainly.

30% attrition is terrible!!! Given a disease is being passed around at a good rate, even if just 10% of people who catch it die, society would really take a big kick to the knackers! Let's put it this way! The shops would be closed and our cupboards would be empty!

Now if 1 in 3 die! :confused: And this is assuming of course the vaccine is around in large enough numbers to help... And how long it remains effective... ie: It might just slow the process down, so you die next year instead of this year (the next time it comes around the planet).

Kaos
02-Sep-2008, 03:20 PM
I guess you are fixated on the raw score of one test. Where I am looking at the progress made that will lead to other tests and possibly greater successes. I also bet there was no attempt to treat the infected animals which kind of skews the mortality figures.

Neil
02-Sep-2008, 03:24 PM
I guess you are fixated on the raw score of one test. Where I am looking at the progress made that will lead to other tests and possibly greater successes.

OK...

But let's say H5N1 jumps to humans in 2010... Will an effective vaccine be around? Will super large quantities of it be available? And even if the answers to these questions are yes (which is VERY unlikely) if the vaccine is only effective for a short period, then the people innoculated will simply die on a subsequent pass of it...

I guess I'm just trying to suggest we can't be complaicent... Western societies could very well crumble very easily if a pandemic broke out in the western world... And I really don't think it would take very much for our house of cards to topple over, it's stacked soooo high!

Kaos
02-Sep-2008, 03:33 PM
OK...

But let's say H5N1 jumps to humans in 2010... Will an effective vaccine be around? Will super large quantities of it be available? And even if the answers to these questions are yes (which is VERY unlikely) if the vaccine is only effective for a short period, then the people innoculated will simply die on a subsequent pass of it...

Forget 2010, how about tomorrow? Most of what you are concerned about ... you have no control over. I think some very bright folks are dedicated to solving this problem. If you are advocating more funding for research, I am with you. But you seem to obsess over pandemics when there are many things that could kill us all.

Mike70
02-Sep-2008, 05:05 PM
here is a future doomsday scenario. it is far off in the future but is interesting nonetheless:

1.4 million years from now gliese 710, a star about half the mass of the sun, is going to come within 1.1 light years of the solar system. it will cause the greatest gravitational pertubation in 10s if not hundreds of millions of years.

it could disturb the oort cloud in such a way as to send a huge number of comets hurtling into the inner solar system. that'd be, uh, rather interesting to say the least.

Neil
02-Sep-2008, 05:39 PM
here is a future doomsday scenario. it is far off in the future but is interesting nonetheless:

1.4 million years from now gliese 710, a star about half the mass of the sun, is going to come within 1.1 light years of the solar system. it will cause the greatest gravitational pertubation in 10s if not hundreds of millions of years.

it could disturb the oort cloud in such a way as to send a huge number of comets hurtling into the inner solar system. that'd be, uh, rather interesting to say the least.
They recon only an increase in 5% in cratering! Not much...

I suspect I'll still worry more about H5N1 than Gliese :)

Neil
15-Sep-2008, 11:17 AM
We are working on all strains. Avian, common, mutated, all of it. The company I work for actually makes a flu vaccine that uses the live virus to fit it off.

Keep in mind I can't go into huge specifics, but just to work int he office part of the flu building you have to be vaccinated.

I quote from a document I've just read about Flu vaccinations:-

Can I be vaccinated against Avian or Pandemic strains of Flu?

Not at present. It will not be possible to create a vaccine against a Pandemic strain until such a time a strain actually appears.

AcesandEights
15-Sep-2008, 02:19 PM
Neil, as I understand it, vaccinations at a facility will hopefully protect people against the existing strains. A pandemic would likely arise from a mutation of an existing strain or something new altogether.

Neil
15-Sep-2008, 03:25 PM
Neil, as I understand it, vaccinations at a facility will hopefully protect people against the existing strains. A pandemic would likely arise from a mutation of an existing strain or something new altogether.

If we take Avian Flu (H5N1) there is no existing strain as such as it hasn't jumped to humans (properly)... ie: At the moment it doesn't really infect people (very easily)...

Also and vaccines for existing H5N1 strains tend to get out of date as the virus changes/mutates.

The concern is with a couple of mutations, the virus could gain the ability to leap from human to human. And with a possibly mortality rate of well over 50%, that's a worrying disease to have being passed around! And once this mutation has happened the vaccine could not be created for at least 6-9 months!!