Hypothetical: Dire situation, running low on supplies

[Thorn]

Hypothetical: Dire situation

You are fortified with several other families in a brick and mortar building that served as a pump station. It has been easy for you to fortify and defend from the living dead due to the old world poured and reinforced concrete and iron door, However getting out for supplies has become problematic as more and more zombies appear, and are aware of your presence. You recently lost a man and his son while they were out on a supply run.

You are in charge of the food rations and it is your responsibility to inventory and dole them out as you best see fit. You understand they are not going to last much longer even after cutting back on the amounts you are allowing to go out per person each day.


You have been thinking about abandoning this structure and moving on trying to find a better supplied shelter or help elsewhere, you are however voted down at every turn. It is not something the majority is willing to consider right now.

Do you…

A) Hide the true nature of the ration issue to avoid panic?
B) Use it as a bargaining tool to try and motivate people to move, and thus exaggerate the nature of the crisis?
C) Ensure those fighting and foraging are getting a lions share of the food and water, allowing the sick and lame to make due with bare minimum.
D) Look out for yourself and your own family/friends by giving tem larger portions while allowing others to go with much less.
E) Load up on as much weapons and rations as you can carry and blow out of there.
F) Other, please explain

[SRP76]

Is there a way out onto the roof of this place? And do we have some rope?

If the answers to both questions are "yes", then we've solved our food problem. We just go fishing: loop the rope, drop it off the roof, and haul up a zombie. Off with the head, strip the flesh from the bones, and make stew. Feeds 12.

[Bub666]

We just go fishing: loop the rope, drop it off the roof, and haul up a zombie. Off with the head, strip the flesh from the bones, and make stew. Feeds 12.

:confused:
Are zombies even edible?If you eat a zombie,wouldn't you become infected?

[SRP76]

:confused:
Are zombies even edible?If you eat a zombie,wouldn't you become infected?

I imagine cooking kills anything (assuming it's the "virus/bacteria" type cause). And if it's the "radiation" cause that's hinted at in Night, then everything is already irradiated, and eating anything would be lethal. So, you might as well chow down.

Of course, you will want to try to pick the freshest ones; it would be like choosing fruit at the supermarket. As long as the meat's still fresh, you're set.

[sandrock74]

I certainly wouldn't eat dead flesh! I'm sure youd become infected no matter how the zombie meat is prepared!

[SRP76]

I certainly wouldn't eat dead flesh! I'm sure youd become infected no matter how the zombie meat is prepared!

You eat hamburgers, don't you? That's dead flesh.

And zombie might not be too bad, provided you get the fresh ones. Since we (people) are most closesly matched anatomically with the pig, I imagine zombie would taste a lot like pork. And pork isn't bad. Ham, porkchops...

[Bub666]

You eat hamburgers, don't you? That's dead flesh.

And zombie might not be too bad, provided you get the fresh ones. Since we (people) are most closesly matched anatomically with the pig, I imagine zombie would taste a lot like pork. And pork isn't bad. Ham, porkchops...

Yeah,but hamburger meat and pork aren't infected with something that can turn you into a zombie.

[SRP76]

Yeah,but hamburger meat and pork aren't infected with something that can turn you into a zombie.

It might be (not with a zombie virus, but other bacteria and so forth). That's why they tell you to cook it thoroughly. The same rules for cooking chicken and pork would apply to cooking ghoulmeat. The cooking process would sterilize it.

The filthy, untreated water you'd be drinking 3 months into the apocalypse would be more harmful than eating properly cooked zombie.

[Bub666]

It might be (not with a zombie virus, but other bacteria and so forth). That's why they tell you to cook it thoroughly. The same rules for cooking chicken and pork would apply to cooking ghoulmeat. The cooking process would sterilize it.

The filthy, untreated water you'd be drinking 3 months into the apocalypse would be more harmful than eating properly cooked zombie.

Well if you want to eat zombie meat,you go right ahead and eat it.I would rather starve then eat zombie meat and become infected.

[clanglee]

B) Use it as a bargaining tool to try and motivate people to move, and thus exaggerate the nature of the crisis?


Get em moving. But only after we had scouted around for another possible place.

[Publius]

B) Use it as a bargaining tool to try and motivate people to move, and thus exaggerate the nature of the crisis?


Get em moving. But only after we had scouted around for another possible place.

Agree. B, followed by E.

[Bub666]

I think I'd go with E.I would load up on all the weapons and food that I can get my hands on and get the hell out of there,before it was too late.

[Thorn]

I was reading one of the stories submitted in the fiction section and in it the protagonist ate zombie meat. I remember thinking... that is new. I do not think anyone ever proposed such an idea before. I also remember being completely repulsed. Not just because it is a case of someone eating "human flesh" because I think that is something that a lot of people are forced to do to survive in horrible situations.

No, but because these are dead people and zombie meat has very little appeal to me. First of all it is meat of people who are dead, in various degrees of freshness. Secondly because it is either infected with a pretty bizarre virus, irradiated with some very bizarre and highly dangerous radiations, and likely loaded with matter of other nasty things.

Either way I am not so sure I want to put that in my body.

Interesting thought though, and yes for the sake of argument you do have roof access and ropes.

This one is a moral dilemma for me. I would not stay and damn my family/friends to death. I would have to argue long and hard to make my case. Then lying which is something I try to avoid in life while not appealing, might be required to make people feel the situation is even more dire to try and get them motivated.

In the end if they would not leave I think I would take a faqir share of guns, ammo, and supplies and get the heck out of there. If they gave me problems I am not sure how i would deal with that but I can assure you I would not be a wallflower forced to remain in a situation that was clearly dire when there was hope of a better situation out there.

[CornishCorpse]

Hey Thorn, a new face to me at least. Welcome to the boards! I know its late but better late than never.

Anyway Id have to go with E for the reasoning that eventually the group would turn in itself, unless you have a broader strategy of how to survive even if its only load up on supplies and hope there is something better over the next hill things will get nasty. You may want to be honest and do whats best for the group who is to say the better armed wont simply take the rations for their own families and send the expendable members out? Failing that what is to say that they wont simply cannibalise the non neccessary members of the group? It solves the ration problem without having any of the risk of going into the deadland. As proven in night there will always be someone who wants to stay in the same spot and just wait it out, lets say a a few people dont want to leave but some do. Are the hermits going to let the wandrers take their supplies and firearms and just wander off into the distance with it? So conflict.

In my opinion the best option would be a 50/50 split of everything between the two groups. In an ideal world it would work but people are very greedy and in a situation where the choices are starvation,murder or being eaten alive. Meh humanity may fail.

As for the zombie fishing, its a good idea but not everyone thinks as practically as you SRP. I agree if neccessary you could but how are you going to persuade a mother that feeding infected rotting flesh to her children wont infect them?

[Thorn]

Hi Cornish. I am a returning member from the old forums many moons ago. I left shortly after the war in Iraq started by way of time reference, but you can never escape your fascination with Zombies if you are me so it is always there.

I have checked in from time to time and just lurked but recently wanted to read some dead fiction now that I have some free time on my hands and re-applied. At the same time I figured may as well stop in say hi, and chat with some good people about the zombies that are such a part of my psyche.

So, anyhow thank you for the warm welcome and I look forward to many chats to come.

[SRP76]

how are you going to persuade a mother that feeding infected rotting flesh to her children wont infect them?

That's simple enough. I will be chowing down right in front of everyone each day. If they want to starve, f*ck 'em; it's not going to prevent me from eating.

After enough time passes with everyone watching me eating zombie, and not dying from it, it will have to dawn on them that it's safe.

.....and the whole idea of killing and eating the "unnecessary" members of the group will work too, but it only solves the food problem. Zombie fishing actually soves two: the food shortage, and it thins out the ghouls that are keeping you from leaving. For each one you roast and eat, that's one fewer you have to run through when you try to escape.

[Trin]

Listen, if you eat a zombie you'll be fine. Unless you eat the brain whole and poop it out, in which case the poop will come after you. :p

[clanglee]

I was reading one of the stories submitted in the fiction section and in it the protagonist ate zombie meat. I remember thinking... that is new. I do not think anyone ever proposed such an idea before. I also remember being completely repulsed. Not just because it is a case of someone eating "human flesh" because I think that is something that a lot of people are forced to do to survive in horrible situations.

.

Nah, not new really. There's a story in Skipp and Spector's Book of the Dead where hobos survive by eating zombies. It is even proposed that after eating the zombie meat, they are immune somewhat. . in that they don't come back after death. Good little story that.

[Yojimbo]

Nah, not new really. There's a story in Skipp and Spector's Book of the Dead where hobos survive by eating zombies. It is even proposed that after eating the zombie meat, they are immune somewhat. . in that they don't come back after death. Good little story that.
Yeah, Clang, my favorite story, I think it was called "Choices"

Anyways, if cooking can make pork meat safe- with all the nasty bugs and weird things that live in that meat that can make a person violently and fatally ill, then I would guess that zombie meat would similarly be rendered safe. Not that I think that the idea is all that palatable, but there have been many instances where human meat was consumed for survival even without proper cooking.

Proper cooking can effectively kill viruses and bacteria. Honestly, you can take a piece of rancid meat, totally rotten and maggot infested, and if you boil it long enough it will be safe to eat. Maybe not all that tasty, but certainly won't kill you. (Plus the maggots are pure protein, so the extra little bits of nutrition can only help you in a survival situation)

Certainly if given the choice, I would rather eat a nice Kobe Beef Prime Rib.

[DawnGirl27]

I'm for B, and then continuing into E...

[lullubelle]

I am out of there, see as long as I am strong and have strength to fight my way out I would take a chance and look for a new place or place with more supplies, because as usual if you have notice the dumb dumbs that voted to stay will get weak becaus eof the lack of enough food and thats when they are going to change thier minds and try to find a new place and I believe in the process be eaten as they are to weak to fight, in this case I will be selfish as say "hasta la vista baby"

[Trencher]

Hamburgers, pork, beef whater kind of meat you can get your hand on would be unedible after a couple of days. Any zombie would be unedible long before you ran out of canned beans even if you lucked out and got a fresh one it would rot sooner rather than later. Cheap shots from the vegetable gallery about meat aside no amount of boiling and or sesoning will make rotten meat edible. I am flabbergasted that so many of you think this is possible FLABBERGASTED I SAY!! :rant:
That said I would find some way to deal with anyone in the compound who tried to eat an zombie or suggested eating a zombie, because I think the daydreaming about eating zombies its a power fantasy of being a superior predator kind of thing. Like the emo kids who drink blood and call themselve vampires and stuff.
As for Thorns question I would ration the food in such a way that it would run out then we would have to move.

[Thorn]

The issue is not just the bacteria in the rancid meat because as we all agree that cooking can usually take care of bacteria. That said, bacteria can also produce toxins that not even cooking can get rid of. These toxins and the effects are worse than the bacteria themselves. Botulism for example is one extremely bad form of food poisoning, and it is caused by bacteria toxins, not the bacteria itself. If you follow me.

From Wikipedia:

* Normal symptoms of food-borne botulism usually occur between 12–36 hours after consuming the botulinum toxin. However, they can occur as early as 6 hours or as late as 10 days after.

Normal symptoms usually include dry mouth, double and/or blurred vision, difficulty swallowing, muscle weakness, drooping eyelids, difficult breathing, slurred speech, vomiting, urinary incontinence and sometimes diarrhea. These symptoms may continue to cause paralytic ileus with severe constipation, and will lead to body paralysis. The respiratory muscles are affected as well, which may cause death due to respiratory failure. These are all symptoms of the muscle paralysis caused by the bacterial toxin.

In all cases illness is caused by the toxin made by C. botulinum, not by the bacterium itself. The pattern of damage occurs because the toxin affects nerves that are firing more often.[4]


(I made bold items I think that would make living in the "dead world" a bit of a challenge)

I kind of like the idea of getting while you have strength to do so, and the idea of forcing the issue. Very interesting.

[Trencher]

And if any of you have any doubt take a rotten piece of meat and smell it a bit, better yet do it on youtube and post the link here.

[Publius]

These toxins and the effects are worse than the bacteria themselves. Botulism for example is one extremely bad form of food poisoning, and it is caused by bacteria toxins, not the bacteria itself. If you follow me.

Quite true. The botulinum toxin itself can be broken down by heat, but others are pretty heat-resistant, so cooking badly spoiled meat won't necessarily make it safe to eat. In a survival situation, with questionable food it's best to try a small portion first, and try to wait 24 hours or so to see whether you get sick before eating more. And make sure to reheat the food thoroughly before eating more. Because, for example, while cooking will destroy the botulinum toxin, it might not destroy the spores that make the toxin, so it will get re-poisoned if you let it sit too long.

[Yojimbo]

I may be mistaken, but I had been told that botulism toxins are destroyed when subjected to high heat. Certainly there could be other toxins that are not destroyed by high temperature boiling - while I don't know about this, it seems common sense enough to be true.

I do know that among certain cultures - the Inuit and some African cultures come to mind - that rancid meat is frequently consumed. There have been however, incidents of botulism amongst the Inuit, so perhaps this may be caused by certain dishes they prepare with rancid meat.

If you have ever seen some of the third world butcher shops, they frequently have meat that we would consider to be rancid. Some of the meat we would certainly consider unpaletable because they are covered with flies. I have been told that this meat is safe if boiled for a long period of time. The water they use to boil the meat is thrown out and the meat is reboiled a second time. Though I do not know how often their communities get stricken with botulism, I wonder if maybe this second boiling in fresh water might reduce the amount of other toxins in the meat itself?

Finally, I once read a field survival manual written by this Mormon outdoor survival instructor who said that rancid meat scavanged off of animal carcasses found in the wild could be boiled and eaten with no ill effect. He claimed that Native Americans had done this safely for generations. I will try to find a reference for you all regarding this (not that just because he wrote it makes the practice safe, mind you, just a reference for those who are interested)

[SRP76]

Dr. Frankenstein tells us that the decomposition of the zombies is dramatically slowed. Which means their meat is not spoiling. They're staying fresh.

So, no worries about the meat being rotten. Yum-yum.

[Trencher]

He claimed that Native Americans had done this safely for generations. I will try to find a reference for you all regarding this (not that just because he wrote it makes the practice safe, mind you, just a reference for those who are interested)
I am interested if only for a good laugh.

Dr. Frankenstein tells us that the decomposition of the zombies is dramatically slowed. Which means their meat is not spoiling. They're staying fresh.

So, no worries about the meat being rotten. Yum-yum.
It slowed it down so they did not fall appart not that it was safe to eat, the zombies were obviously rotten.

[Publius]

It slowed it down so they did not fall appart not that it was safe to eat, the zombies were obviously rotten.

True. Who knows, if the zombie plague is caused by a microbe, maybe that microbe preserves the body by producing a toxin strong enough to kill off any other microbes that would cause decomp. I wouldn't want to try it.

[Yojimbo]

Certainly, there must be a point of no return for spoilage and it makes sense that there is a point in spoilage where the meat is too far gone to be rendered safe by anything at all. But I would imagine that the perception of something being too spoiled to eat would differ based on culture. I am sure that most Westerners would find the rotten fish sauce of Vietnam, for example, competely unacceptable, but the Vietnamese have been eating this for centuries.

I have heard - and not sure if this is accurate - that spices such as those in curry and the like were used by some cultures to make spoiled meat palatable. Again, not sure if this is true, but it makes sense.

The points about by-byproduct toxins rendering meat unconsumable even after heavy cooking, though, does make sense.

Anyway, if given the choice between wormy meat, or a fresh rib-eye, I would certainly opt for the fresh meat. Truthfully, I cannot say that in a survival situation I would choose starving to death over eating the spoiled, rancid meat of a dead animal carcass, just as I cannot say for certain that I would be able to bring myself to eat wormy meat if I was starving. Hope I never get to the point where I have to make that decision!

[Trencher]

Certainly, there must be a point of no return for spoilage and it makes sense that there is a point in spoilage where the meat is too far gone to be rendered safe by anything at all. Great


But I would imagine that the perception of something being too spoiled to eat would differ based on culture. I am sure that most Westerners would find the rotten fish sauce of Vietnam, for example, competely unacceptable, but the Vietnamese have been eating this for centuries. Im from Norway and there are several traditional dishes here that are spoiled beyond aceptabilites for other cultures. So the tradition can change your perceptions of what is spoiled but it can not make you eat rotten food because the body reject it, even if you spiced it up and or made it totally tasteless you still would get sick as the body rejected the food.


I have heard - and not sure if this is accurate - that spices such as those in curry and the like were used by some cultures to make spoiled meat palatable. Again, not sure if this is true, but it makes sense. Allthough spice and salt is used to preserve food and prolong its possible shelf time it has to be fresh when it was prepared. There is no spice in the world that can make rotten food edible.


Truthfully, I cannot say that in a survival situation I would choose starving to death over eating the spoiled, rancid meat of a dead animal carcass, just as I cannot say for certain that I would be able to bring myself to eat wormy meat if I was starving. You would be better off eating the worms lol, no matter how starving you were and how desperate you were your body would reject the rotten food.

[Thorn]

I may be mistaken, but I had been told that botulism toxins are destroyed when subjected to high heat.

Yes that is true, that is just one example that I used for emphasis, I selected clostridium botulinum because it is something that most people are at least vaguely familiar with. There in fact are many other toxins that heat does not kill, or the heat must be so high for so long that it renders the nutritional value of the meat nil. Making the entire exercise one that is pointless.

Staphylococcus bacteria however IS resistant to heat, and to make matters worse it is not detectable by taste or even smell. Symptoms include abdominal cramps, vomiting, severe diarrhea and extreme exhaustion. These usually appear within one to eight hours after eating staph-infected food and this illness can be fatal.

Also people have been saying just cook it for a long time, this is not always a good thing. Besides cooking out nutrients, you also are with some bacteria actually helping them grow, thrive, and create toxins. Such as in the case of
Clostridium perfringens.

Bottom line here guys is that eating the flesh of reanimated, decaying, radiated rotting human bodies is a slippery slope, a lot of people have fallen in love with the idea and that is great. But I have to be honest you may as well take your chances fighting through a pack of zombies trying to find another supply of food. It would seem to me anyway to be much less risky. I would rather go down fighting than die of dehydration throwing up in the crapper too weak to crawl.

[Publius]

I have heard - and not sure if this is accurate - that spices such as those in curry and the like were used by some cultures to make spoiled meat palatable. Again, not sure if this is true, but it makes sense.

To some extent spices have been used to improve the flavor of meat of questionable quality, but not truly rotten meat, just meat a bit past what we consider fresh these days, or less desirable cuts or types of meat. For example, if you have to eat goat instead of beef, it helps to spice it up. A lot of spices also have some preservative effect, which helps prevent the meat from spoiling.

The story that spices were used to cover the taste of spoiled meat has been much exaggerated. One giveaway is the fact that the story is often told about cooks in medieval Europe. In Europe, spices were tremendously expensive, and only the rich could afford them. And of course, the rich were also able to get the freshest meat whenever they wanted it. People who had to use meat long after it was slaughtered would have to salt, dry, smoke, or pickle it to preserve it.

[Yojimbo]

Great
Im from Norway and there are several traditional dishes here that are spoiled beyond aceptabilites for other cultures. So the tradition can change your perceptions of what is spoiled but it can not make you eat rotten food because the body reject it, even if you spiced it up and or made it totally tasteless you still would get sick as the body rejected the food.
Allthough spice and salt is used to preserve food and prolong its possible shelf time it has to be fresh when it was prepared. There is no spice in the world that can make rotten food edible.
You would be better off eating the worms lol, no matter how starving you were and how desperate you were your body would reject the rotten food.


Certainly makes sense to me. Again, I concede that there is a point of no return for spoiled meat, and am merely saying that meat that is not that far gone might be rendered a bit more palatable with spices. But what you say makes sense.

I agree, better off using the rotten meat to grow maggots, then pick the maggots out of the writhing pile of rancid meat and cook only the maggots for consumption. Yum! :lol:




The story that spices were used to cover the taste of spoiled meat has been much exaggerated. One giveaway is the fact that the story is often told about cooks in medieval Europe. In Europe, spices were tremendously expensive, and only the rich could afford them. And of course, the rich were also able to get the freshest meat whenever they wanted it. People who had to use meat long after it was slaughtered would have to salt, dry, smoke, or pickle it to preserve it.
Publius, after I posted yesterday, I did an online search and found an entry that basically says what you just said, and it makes total sense.


I would rather go down fighting than die of dehydration throwing up in the crapper too weak to crawl.


I cannot argue with this, Thorn. That is sound reasoning, and reason enough not to eat a zombie stew, no matter how hungry you get!

[Trencher]

Sorry to go all ranty about it but the idea of eating rotten flesh just provokes me.

[Bub666]

Sorry to go all ranty about it but the idea of eating rotten flesh just provokes me.


Yeah,I don't think I could ever bring myself to eat rotten flesh.:hurl:

[Yojimbo]

Sorry to go all ranty about it but the idea of eating rotten flesh just provokes me.
Trencher, no need to apologize, brother.

It is actually I who should apologize for posting information that could have potentially had folks puking their guts out (or worse) had they followed my suggestion to boil spoiled meat in order to render it safe. While I have heard and read that this would work and that folks have done this without getting sick or dying, it is now clear to me that this is not the best idea. :lol: