Fran's disappointment in not going to Canada

[Philly_SWAT]

Seems as if the boards are kind of quiet lately, so I wanted to come up with something to start a discussion. This was what I came up with.

I can see why Fran would be upset that it appeared that "the boys" were making decisions without consulting her. Flyboy was her man, "most of the time" according to her. She was pregnant, but unmarried. Was she upset over Flyboy's unwillingness to commit? Fran's character seemed to me to be quite resilient and willing to express her thoughts. The next day she said to all of them she wasnt going to play "den mother" to them, and wanted to be part of the plans "there's four of us, OK!" Peter understood this as being only fair, "fair enough", but Flyboy was upset that she pwn'd him in front of his male buddies, buddies he already had trouble keeping up with in the manliness department. She also adapted quickly to using guns, flying the chopper, and injecting morphine.

But why was she so upset about not going to Canada? Why would Canada be any better than any other place? If they just wanted to be in a rural area, there would be plenty right in Pennsylvania. If she was upset simply about changing plans without consulting her, why mention Canada in particular? Any thoughts?

[EvilNed]

Maybe because Canada is far less populated they had an easier time dealing with the zombies up there. Sure, society had probably collapsed, but I can't imagine it being very diffiult too control the zombie population in the wide open spaces further up north.

[Danny Terror]

Yeah I never really put too much thought into this, but I'm goofing off at work so I'll just say that perhaps Fran and Steven had discussed Canada as a place to go and raise their baby before the outbreak began and it was still a place that she dreamed about even though the world had fallen apart. I really doubt that Fran suggested Canada as a safe place to try and make it to in the Helicopter but of course I could be wrong.

Danny T.

[axlish]

I think that she knew that in order to truly get away, they had to learn to live off of the land, give up their life of materialism and cut the umbilical chord to society. The mall represented everything that she wanted to get away from. She reluctantly indugled and the mall proved to be the end of two of their lives. That is why the ending is so upliftinng and hopeful, because she is returning to her intended path with Peter.

[darth los]

Seems as if the boards are kind of quiet lately, so I wanted to come up with something to start a discussion. This was what I came up with.

I can see why Fran would be upset that it appeared that "the boys" were making decisions without consulting her. Flyboy was her man, "most of the time" according to her. She was pregnant, but unmarried. Was she upset over Flyboy's unwillingness to commit? Fran's character seemed to me to be quite resilient and willing to express her thoughts. The next day she said to all of them she wasnt going to play "den mother" to them, and wanted to be part of the plans "there's four of us, OK!" Peter understood this as being only fair, "fair enough", but Flyboy was upset that she pwn'd him in front of his male buddies, buddies he already had trouble keeping up with in the manliness department. She also adapted quickly to using guns, flying the chopper, and injecting morphine.

But why was she so upset about not going to Canada? Why would Canada be any better than any other place? If they just wanted to be in a rural area, there would be plenty right in Pennsylvania. If she was upset simply about changing plans without consulting her, why mention Canada in particular? Any thoughts?


It definitely seems like something she and Steven discussed beforehand. Perhaps that's where they were headed until they tripped over this consumer's paradise. It also seems like it was her idea. She did say, "nobody cares about my vote".

It's true that there are plenty of rural areas in PA but they are pockets in the midst of some very densly populated areas. Up in Canada there are miles upon miles of frozen tundra for pete's sake. You might be able to hide up there indefinitely.

You know, you would think that when fran saw that the human race was done for and what was waiting outside the walls of the mall that she would have warmed up to the idea after a while. The only reason they were alive for as long as they were was that mall. They wouldn't have stood a chance virtually anywhere else. Of course they could have found a similar set up somewhere else but life as she knew it was over with.

People with the mindset her and riley had want to continue life as usual because they feel that as a result of what they've become they're not really living anymore. But there's really little alternative. Whether it's in an uderground bunker, fortified city, mall, or old house the key to survival is to find somewhere safe to make zombieproof and live out your days the best you can.



:cool:

[Publius]

It's true that there are plenty of rural areas in PA but they are pockets in the midst of some very densly populated areas. Up in Canada there are miles upon miles of frozen tundra for pete's sake. You might be able to hide up there indefinitely.

Right. Pennsylvania has "rural" areas. Canada has vast stretches of true wilderness, like nothing you can find in the U.S. east of the Mississippi. And much of that is not even tundra, but temperate woodland at latitudes comparable to the UK, the Netherlands, or northern Germany.

These maps of Quebec (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/analysis/popdwell/vignettes/map-2006-pop-density-quebec-sz02-en.htm) and Ontario (http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census06/analysis/popdwell/vignettes/map-2006-pop-density-ontario-sz02-en.htm) (the provinces closest to Pennsylvania) show that the great majority of each province is "sparsely populated" -- where 1 person per square mile is NOT considered "sparsely populated! By contrast, no county in Pennsylvania has a population density of less than 10 people per square mile, and all but three have a population density several times that.

Go a little further west in Canada, and the entire province of Manitoba has half the population density of Pennsylvania's most "sparsely populated" county!

[dracenstein]

Wouldn't a lot of Americans have thought the same about Canada being sparsely populated and gone north?

And some of them may be bitten...

Plus a lot of urbanites might die from natural causes...

[sandrock74]

I think I would have gone for Wyoming. The entire state population is 500,000...think about that...only half a million people in a state! You probably won't find better odds anywhere else inside the U.S.

[RustyHicks]

Maybe Fran thought it would be safer in Canada because Canada is nothing but
ice, glaciers and snow :D I hear that a lot from people who visit Canada, who actually
think Canada is the North Pole and Santa is our neighbor.

Seriously though, Canada is less populated, there are lots of places to hide. Up in the moutains, cottage land, forest... Maybe she thought it would be a little less dangerous

[Publius]

Wouldn't a lot of Americans have thought the same about Canada being sparsely populated and gone north?

True, but what else are you gonna do? A lot of people in densely populated areas will have thought of pretty much every sparsely populated area. At least a helicopter will let you leapfrog over most of the masses who will get bogged down on the highways heading north.

[Thorn]

I think a lot of good points were raised here.

Personally I think she had Canada in her mind, and in her mind it was a better place. For whatever reason it represented freedom to her, or change. Perhaps something better, with her man, and her baby. Everyone I think needs to think there is something better out there.

Those plans were changed, and she was on the outside looking in on those plans. She had a baby to care for and think about, and she knew what was there. A lot of danger. A mother more often than not will seek to protect her children, there was certainly a lot of risk involved with where they were and their new plans.

Also at the time the movie was filmed and still to this day females are often put in lesser roles, I think she viewed how she was being treated (as less than equal) as unacceptable and the Canada decision was just a part of it.

[Bub666]

I think no matter where they would've gone,there would have been too many zombies.

[krakenslayer]

I think no matter where they would've gone,there would have been too many zombies.

I think the frozen wastes of northern Canada would be an extremely safe place in the event of a zombie outbreak, if you're not adverse to "going back to nature". There are streams to fish in, animals to hunt, trees for fuel, dozens of small settlements and secluded hunting cabins to live in. The extremely low population density, rugged terrain and often harsh climate (frozen zombies!!) would provide a reasonably strong natural defence against roaming ghouls, who generally tend towards places they remember from life (therefore, mostly towards densely populated areas). Granted, large numbers of survivors will be trying to escape to the wilderness, but if you actually look at Canada on a map, it's ****ing huge - it's 9,984,670 square kilometres - and most of it just wilderness! Even if there was a mass exodus there, if the survivors were more or less evenly distributed and you headed away from population centres and roads, you'd be lucky to even encounter another group of survivors let alone a horde of zombies.

[Cody]

I tned not to think to in dpeth toawrds movies like this.

[MoonSylver]

I think the frozen wastes of northern Canada would be an extremely safe place in the event of a zombie outbreak, if you're not adverse to "going back to nature". There are streams to fish in, animals to hunt, trees for fuel, dozens of small settlements and secluded hunting cabins to live in. The extremely low population density, rugged terrain and often harsh climate (frozen zombies!!) would provide a reasonably strong natural defence against roaming ghouls, who generally tend towards places they remember from life (therefore, mostly towards densely populated areas). Granted, large numbers of survivors will be trying to escape to the wilderness, but if you actually look at Canada on a map, it's ****ing huge - it's 9,984,670 square kilometres - and most of it just wilderness! Even if there was a mass exodus there, if the survivors were more or less evenly distributed and you headed away from population centres and roads, you'd be lucky to even encounter another group of survivors let alone a horde of zombies.

Yep. Only thing I'd add is if there was a mass exodus, I don't know how many people would make it. Most of society has lost basic survival skills. Look how many people go hiking, camping, whatever & get lost & die every year.

[lullubelle]

Could be like some of the others have stated, its a remote area, less populated, less zombies to deal with, if you are well supplied a remote place is better from my point of view, not necessarally Canada, just a remote place where there is a chance at a normal or as close to normal exsistance as possible, not a place were you are lockup and the zombie population is growing bigger every day.

[sandrock74]

True, cities would be nothing but a deathtrap. Open, unpopulated areas would be your best shot at surviving. Like I said before, I would go to Wyoming!

[carpetbeggar]

Maybe Canada had a better handle on the problem. Being less populated than the States with most of the population resting all along the border with the States maybe it wasn't as big of a problem up there. There could easily have been whole areas, towns, small cities in the north away from the heavily populated border that had zero infection and had everything under control, that is only if they can keep the highways and roads closed off to deny access to the huge numbers of refugees that would surely be pouring across the border from the States and from the larger Canadian cities such as T.O., Montreal, Winnipeg, Vancouver, Ottawa, etc. As long as they could control the flood of refugees and access to and from the cities I think they would be alright. I think they would have to set up roadblocks starting at least 100 miles outside of these northern towns and small cities and have many more scattered intermittently at key areas in between the outermost roadblock and the town center. Places like Thunder Bay, Yellowknife, Dawson, maybe even Edmonton if they got there **** together early by restricting travel through there international airports.
I also think a lot of these "remote" towns and cities would see how all the larger cities to the south screwed everything up at the beginning of the crisis in not controlling travel to and from their cities by air, sea and land and they saw how it spreads so fast that they could probably learn from their mistakes and would have more time to prepare properly and in a more organized fashion.
This all depends on how and where the epidemic originated from. Area's farther away from the epicenter would have more time to "seal" things off and prepare.

*edit* Oh and I also wanted to add that areas with more extreme weather patterns, like northern Canada would slow the rate of infection greatly. The Dead won't make it too far in a Arctic cold snap or blizzards. Also, can you imagine the havoc a major category 3 or 4 hurricane would reek on the undead? The strong winds would be blowing them to hell and back. lol I would imagine any zeds on the coastal areas would be be blown halfway across the Atlantic in a major hurricane.

[Dommm]

also remember there being some mention of Canada in Land.... Not sure may have to rewatch my copy

[krakenslayer]

also remember there being some mention of Canada in Land.... Not sure may have to rewatch my copy

Indeed, the Dead Reckoning and crew were last seen departing for Canada at the end of that film. As Riley put it they went "looking for a world without fences", to be free of both the zombies AND human civilisation.

[jim102016]

True, cities would be nothing but a deathtrap. Open, unpopulated areas would be your best shot at surviving. Like I said before, I would go to Wyoming!

Rough, Wyoming is rough. I've driven through Wyoming from east to west a few times now. If I had to spend years or decades in the areas I saw first hand, I'd sooner shoot myself than I would a member of the living dead.


Seems as if the boards are kind of quiet lately, so I wanted to come up with something to start a discussion. This was what I came up with.

I can see why Fran would be upset that it appeared that "the boys" were making decisions without consulting her. Flyboy was her man, "most of the time" according to her. She was pregnant, but unmarried. Was she upset over Flyboy's unwillingness to commit? Fran's character seemed to me to be quite resilient and willing to express her thoughts. The next day she said to all of them she wasnt going to play "den mother" to them, and wanted to be part of the plans "there's four of us, OK!" Peter understood this as being only fair, "fair enough", but Flyboy was upset that she pwn'd him in front of his male buddies, buddies he already had trouble keeping up with in the manliness department. She also adapted quickly to using guns, flying the chopper, and injecting morphine.

But why was she so upset about not going to Canada? Why would Canada be any better than any other place? If they just wanted to be in a rural area, there would be plenty right in Pennsylvania. If she was upset simply about changing plans without consulting her, why mention Canada in particular? Any thoughts?

Following GAR's love of throwing current political tones into his movies, Fran was a representative of the feminist movement. The whole argument with Stephen over not being counted as a full member just because she was pregnant sings of "I am woman, hear me roar." Perhaps she should have been given more of a say from the beginning, but at least the other three showed some rationality by not letting her sprint through the mall, dodging packs of the dead in an effort to prove her equality.

I don't think there's much of a debate concerning why Fran and ole' Steve would want to retreat to a sparsely populated area when they were expected a child and the U.S. was in some serious ****. There are a hell of a lot more people within the U.S. border than there are in Canada. Predicting hordes of dead controlling the country in a short amount of time, it was a smart decision. Who knows, maybe they were on the way to Alaska?

[sandrock74]

Rough, Wyoming is rough. I've driven through Wyoming from east to west a few times now. If I had to spend years or decades in the areas I saw first hand, I'd sooner shoot myself than I would a member of the living dead.


Personally, I would rather shoot zombies than myself, but thats just me.

[jim102016]

Personally, I would rather shoot zombies than myself, but thats just me.

Sure, until Wyoming became worse than the threat from the dead.

[Thorn]

As Riley put it they went "looking for a world without fences", to be free of both the zombies AND human civilisation.

Oddly Mr. Romero himself went to Canada, and this land without fences.

[Mike70]

canada sounds like a good idea but getting there probably wouldn't be as easy as it sounds. it would mean either flying straight over lake erie (and out of sight of land) or hugging the PA/NY coast and going the long way round.

flying over lake erie out of sight of land could be hella dangerous. it is very easy for even experienced pilots to become disoriented and run into problems over water. we have no idea how much exp. with this type of flying steven had but given the fact that he was a traffic pilot, probably not much.

flying down the coast of PA and NY until it bends around to ontario would probably eat up a lot of fuel and there is no real way that they could guarantee that they could find more fuel supplies. they could just as well end up stuck somewhere, on foot and out of gas.

[AcesandEights]

Well, Canada represented possible salvation in a literal and figurative sense. Less people, less old world glut and...perhaps for George, less rampant capitalism/consumerism/throwaway culture etc.

I mean, looking at it after the fact, for Fran holding on to what they were used to valuing got her lover and Roger killed, just as people's inabilities to set aside their old ideas of how to handle their dearly departed helped lead to an all-out zombie epidemic.

[sandrock74]

Sure, until Wyoming became worse than the threat from the dead.

Don't judge me! :moon:

[jim102016]

Don't judge me! :moon:


Just don't forget to save one round for yourself!

[sandrock74]

Just don't forget to save one round for yourself!

Playing the Resident Evil games taught me that! Actually, so did Pvt. Steele.

[MissJacksonCA]

Ya... more potent cigarettes... muahahaha... the way they all lit up there after fleeing in the chopper you'd think where ever they'd land they'd seek out a supply of cancer sticks. Of course then there's the whole she was pregnant and not likely to smoke but still...

I think in general she mentioned Canada because she felt they'd be safer in another country what with border patrol and all... perhaps assuming the zombies would be knocked off at the borders. And of course she became upset when she felt her opinion didn't matter to the men because she may be unstable due to the whole pregnancy-hormones thing.

Personally she should've been given two votes... one for her and one for the baby. And she deserved additional votes because she brought up the best point ever - that she and they all should learn to fly the chopper in case something happened to flyboy.

[sandrock74]

Personally she should've been given two votes... one for her and one for the baby. And she deserved additional votes because she brought up the best point ever - that she and they all should learn to fly the chopper in case something happened to flyboy.

I'm assuming your joking when you say Fran should have gotten two votes?

[AcesandEights]

Personally she should've been given two votes... one for her and one for the baby.

Say what?! :eek:

[MissJacksonCA]

Totally serious that she should get two votes on multiple levels. Her life of course will depend on where they seek refuge and the life of her child will also. She's thinking for two she should get votes for two.

[sandrock74]

Insane line of reasoning. Should she be concerned for her future baby? Sure. Should she get two votes? Nope.

What if she didn't even carry the baby to term? What if it died in utero? :rockbrow:

Do pregnant women get to vote twice in ANY election, anywhere? Nope.

Saying Fran should get two votes, especially when one is for someone that isn't even alive yet, is plain crazy. The guys should have gotten two votes each as well, due to all the sperm they carry and future children they may have.

This kind of illogical stance can be argued in circles. :annoyed:

[MissJacksonCA]

Touche...

Fran could easily lose the baby either during childbirth or en route to that point. But to say that men deserve an extra vote for hundreds of unhatched sperm? Bah! Its not like Fran doesn't have any extra eggs lurking around in her egg den. And its not a Presidential election they're voting for... they're voting about where to go to survive a zombie takeover. I can't believe I think Fran should get two votes but... as a woman committed to never having a child I feel that women who are pregnant deserve an extra vote because they're thinking for two. I am only thinking for number one... and yes that's me. But hey... when the zombies start to feed you can darn well bet i'm not letting a pregnant woman have two votes. I just thought Fran deserved it. She thought things through. Think about it...

Flyboy wasn't the smartest guy on the block. He abandoned Fran by taking the gun and trying to join the fun Roger and Peter were having when they went to get supplies and find the keys to the kingdom. And then of course there's the whole he pissed off the biker gang and that turned out real well for him.

Roger went crazy with adrenaline while hot wiring the semi trucks and securing the mall and it led to his getting injured by the zombies.

And lest we not forget Peter? Who in the end was prepared to let everyone eat him alive because he lost Roger? It took him too long to come to his senses IMHO and its that kind of slack that isn't appropriate when zombies are preparing to call you dinner!

Sure... Fran tried to kill a Hare Krishna with a flare... I may have chosen to do him ill will with a can of Spam but ... hey to each their own... and for Fran ... two votes! :moon:

[sandrock74]

So.....

Your saying Fran should get two votes but then you say she shouldn't? I don't understand where you stand on the issue.

[MissJacksonCA]

I'm saying in the film she should've gotten two votes because she wasn't stupid. In reality... i'd never give a pregnant woman two votes.

[sandrock74]

So, then it's a non-issue. :)

[MissJacksonCA]

We were only discussing Fran not every-woman who would most likely peril in the wake of a zombie disaster jeezz

[MoonSylver]

Interesting line of reasoning. Can see both sides. Would provide a tie breaker since there were 4 of them in 2-2 votes. Here would have been an interesting dilemma: what if Peter & Roger wanted to stay & Fran AND Flyboy wanted to go? Would they would have gone their separate ways? Would Peter & Roger have bailed if their ride was leaving? Something else? Another thing to ponder...:)

[sandrock74]

Interesting line of reasoning. Can see both sides. Would provide a tie breaker since there were 4 of them in 2-2 votes. Here would have been an interesting dilemma: what if Peter & Roger wanted to stay & Fran AND Flyboy wanted to go? Would they would have gone their separate ways? Would Peter & Roger have bailed if their ride was leaving? Something else? Another thing to ponder...:)

Good point. I'm guessing some sort of compromise would have to be reached. Roger and Peter needed Flyboy since he was the helicopter pilot. Without him, no ride. Conversely, Flyboy and Fran needed Roger and Peter for protection. We all saw how Flyboy (and Fran) were with guns! Could both parties survive without the other? Yes, but they were safer together.

I think all parties saw how they needed each other. The person no one really needed was Fran. At the begining of the movie, she was the one who brought NOTHING to the table. She couldn't operate weapons, she couldn't fly the helicopter, didn't even make them breakfast and coffee in the morning :clown: Granted, she seemed to recognize this and took steps to correct it, which is a good thing. She was willing to learn.

Thats my thoughts.

[MissJacksonCA]

Brilliant question MS! I kinda see Peter and Roger doing a-ok without Fran and Flyboy and the chopper. They had semi trucks. No doubt a gas pump near the semi truck place. They coulda loaded up in the ol 'pinto (or whatever car it was) and headed out to elsewhere. I think the only reason they took the copter was because it was the fastest and easiest way out of the city at the time. So why not, once you're in the country just set out by whatever means you have? On the other hand I just dont see Fran and FB doing all that well on their own. Look how poorly FB did when he had people around~!

[MoonSylver]

Brilliant question MS! I kinda see Peter and Roger doing a-ok without Fran and Flyboy and the chopper. They had semi trucks. No doubt a gas pump near the semi truck place. They coulda loaded up in the ol 'pinto (or whatever car it was) and headed out to elsewhere. I think the only reason they took the copter was because it was the fastest and easiest way out of the city at the time. So why not, once you're in the country just set out by whatever means you have? On the other hand I just dont see Fran and FB doing all that well on their own. Look how poorly FB did when he had people around~!

True. I wonder though if they WOULD have been keen on trying to take the mall, just the two of them, knowing the other two AND their ride was leaving...

[sandrock74]

True. I wonder though if they WOULD have been keen on trying to take the mall, just the two of them, knowing the other two AND their ride was leaving...

I can see Roger and Peter securing the mall by themselves. They had the weapons, experience to use them and tactical knowledge. They may have had to forego using the trucks, but they could have done it.

Fran and Steven securing the mall? Nope.

[MoonSylver]

I can see Roger and Peter securing the mall by themselves. They had the weapons, experience to use them and tactical knowledge. They may have had to forego using the trucks, but they could have done it.

Fran and Steven securing the mall? Nope.

Not saying they COULDN'T, I just kinda wonder how KEEN on the idea they would have been. The chopper always represents "Plan B". Knowing that your only ride, your only way out if something goes WRONG, is leaving, might be a powerful incentive to leave too...

And remember, Flyboy IS the one who found the map of the shafts, which made it much easier for Roger & Peter to get back out safely & secure the weapons later.

[sandrock74]

My friends and I always laugh at the face flyboy makes when Peter and Roger congradulate him for finding the maps. He looks like a kid who wants to hand out with the adults...he's DESPERATE for their approval!

[MissJacksonCA]

I dont see Peter and Roger securing the mall once Fran and FB bail out and the looters come. But I do see them seeking refuge someplace else... possibly making out like the guy from 28 weeks later and trying to lead a group of civilians to safety. ACTUALLY I see them finding some nice posh pad with a big fence surronuding it and maybe fortifying it 28 Days later style... yeah...

[MoonSylver]

My friends and I always laugh at the face flyboy makes when Peter and Roger congradulate him for finding the maps. He looks like a kid who wants to hand out with the adults...he's DESPERATE for their approval!

"Gee fellas...lookit what I did! Can I join your club?":D

[sandrock74]

"Gee fellas...lookit what I did! Can I join your club?":D

Exactly! LOL

[chuckroast]

Has anyone ever read the novel? It appears they were leaving Philly and flying west for gas, then north up north western Pennsylvania, ( stay out of the big cities) and over to Long Point Canada which is almost an island.

[MoonSylver]

Has anyone ever read the novel? It appears they were leaving Philly and flying west for gas, then north up north western Pennsylvania, ( stay out of the big cities) and over to Long Point Canada which is almost an island.

I have, but it's been a while. Didn't remember an specific references. I need to haul that puppy back out & give it a re-read.:cool: