Patriot Act gets final congressional approval

[AssassinFromHell]

http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=Breaking&storyId=1166617&tw=wn_wire_story

I'm not quite sure how I feel about this. Hell, I'm not sure how I feel about the Patriot Act. I like it, because it could help combat terrorism. I don't like it, because its a little too much of an invasion of privacy. It changes day to day for me.

But check the article. The U.S. Senate passed it by 89-10 vote.

[zombie04]

I have nothing against the Patriot Act. If it helps fight terrorism, I won't argue. Besides, I have nothing to hide.

[Neil]

What terrorism? Notice how there isn't any?

I seem to recall threats of vicious sleeper cells across the West ready to blow us all to pieces... and... ?

Durka! Durka! :)

[axlish]

I was always under the assumption that the government could randomly tap calls on a whim, so this doesn't really bother me.

Why are people so afraid of having their telephone conversations listened to anyway? It would seem that someone that was totally against a policy such as this would surely have something to hide. Me personally, I don't talk about a whole lot on the phone. I order food, call friends and family and that is about it.


What terrorism? Notice how there isn't any?

I seem to recall threats of vicious sleeper cells across the West ready to blow us all to pieces... and... ?

Durka! Durka! :)

We've got a decent handle on Disorganized Crime now. Terrorism was something the western world wasn't willing to do anything about until it fell victim. Now terrorists as a whole have been exposed as a bunch of faux-religion hacks that have about a 90% fail ratio.

Apparently the senate feels that there is still a clear and present danger, which makes me feel a little better. I was beginning to feel like we'd have to be hit again to ensure the threat still exists.

[AssassinFromHell]

The senate is flawed. This is the same senate, whos apart of the same congress whose major focus for the past year was steroids in Major League Baseball.

I always knew that the phone lines were able to be tapped by phone companies, so I was always under the assumption that the U.S. Government could easily take over listening. The part that I think bothers most people is not the idea they have something the idea, just the idea that their privacy is being violated. Since 9/11, that september day has been used as a reason for all of the U.S.' actions. You can hear them say if they don't do something, we could have another 9/11. My theory is they let 9/11 happen, knowing it could be used to their advantage. Just my two cents there.

I was more for the Patriot Act knowing it was a temporary thing. It would be gone after this big mess in Iraq is over. Now that the idea of it being perminant comes into play, I'm feeling a little more uneasy about it.

[Eyebiter]

Heard a good quote this weekend - the war on terror is like a war on the wind.

[Arcades057]

The new PATRIOT Act is supposed to be much improved, curbing certain liberties the gubbment was allowed to take with its first incarnation (including the provision that someone served with a subpoena for a terrorist act can now contact an attorney, where before they couldn't.

The wiretaps situation is a hard nut to crack. You have the FBI allowed to wiretap citizens for drugs or organized crime, mainly, provided they receive a warrant signed by a judge. There is not much argument amongst the judiciary that drugs and organized crime hurt the country, however there are certain elements within the judiciary and elsewhere in leadership positions that believe there is no threat from terrorism. It makes sense, then, that the feds should be allowed to tap into converstions evidencing certain keywords from overseas. One of the arguments those opposed to the wiretaps use to defend their opposition is that the wiretaps target American citizens. What they fail to realize (or fail to mention) is that those wiretaps are only targeting conversations that evidence "target words" and eminate from overseas. Americans, maybe, but only halfway; the other half are overseas.

The PATRIOT Act was not supposed to cover us during the Iraq War; it is meant to cover us during our war on terror. People call the war flawed and are quick to point out that Bin Laden has not been caught. I remind you that the world thought Hitler had survived the bunker for a long while after the war. He died in Berlin. For all we know Bin Laden is dead.

Someone stated that the war on terror is like a war on the wind. People once believed that a certain Evil Empire would be around forever, that the West should learn to live with that Empire and trade with and to accept that it will always be there. That Evil Empire was the Soviet Union. The same people who said we could not beat them would be the same people telling us that we cannot defeat terror today. History will show us who is right and wrong.

[DeadJonas190]

Someone stated that the war on terror is like a war on the wind. People once believed that a certain Evil Empire would be around forever, that the West should learn to live with that Empire and trade with and to accept that it will always be there. That Evil Empire was the Soviet Union. The same people who said we could not beat them would be the same people telling us that we cannot defeat terror today. History will show us who is right and wrong.


The war on terror is a futile as the war on drugs. Sure here and there some headway is made, but for every terrorist caught there are 5 more willing to blow themselves up in the name of their god. I wish there was a way to stop it, but as long we don't live up to the impossible expectations of others, there will always be a terrorist out there trying to destroy our way of life.

That is why I firmly believe we need to colonize Mars. Then we could just shoot all of our enemies up there in a giant rocket ship and be rid of them... but that is as realistic as winning the war on terror.

[Neil]

The war on terror is a futile as the war on drugs. Sure here and there some headway is made, but for every terrorist caught there are 5 more willing to blow themselves up in the name of their god. I wish there was a way to stop it, but as long we don't live up to the impossible expectations of others, there will always be a terrorist out there trying to destroy our way of life.

That is why I firmly believe we need to colonize Mars. Then we could just shoot all of our enemies up there in a giant rocket ship and be rid of them... but that is as realistic as winning the war on terror.

* soap box mode enabled *

Putting things in perspective I suspect more people die from peanuts than acts of terrorism in the US... It's the government and media who spin these issues up into be some uber important topic.

First it was the Russians and now it's Bin Laden... They wan't to keep you worried!

You may (or may not recall) that during the cold war, the US security services said that basically all world terrorism was organised by the Russians... They'll say what even they need to, to get the vote or legislation thru they think is for the better good! Think of the evidence shown to us for the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq...

* soap box mode disabled *

[MinionZombie]

Exactly - WHAT terrorism.

It's touted as being the biggest problem we've ever faced, obesity is a far bigger problem than terrorism. There has always been terrorism - just because it's on CNN every day, doesn't mean it's increased.

People need to chill out on the whole thing, terrorism isn't a big deal like they're making it out to be. Sure it's a problem, but it's not Nazism or cancer or whatever else.

As for the whole phone tapping thing - it's a strange thing, if they can do that then what else will they manage to do? How else will we have to be monitored in the name of national security? Labour constantly spouts "if you've nothing to hide you've nothing to fear" - but that's crap - there's such a thing as a right to privacy without a nanny state peering over your shoulder 'just to make sure' - what happened to trusting your citizens?

Besides, at least one of the July bombers was being followed and monitored and watched leading up to 7/7 ... and he still was able to blow people up. You wonder two things:

1) How is this monitoring malarky that great if you can't stop a bomber you know is going to do something.
2) It's a bit of a "24" thing, but truth can be stranger than fiction - what if such a tragedy was 'allowed' to then whip up public concern and support for your future strategies, to be used as an excuse?

See, this is why we need Jack Bauer to run the country...or at least someone with some bleeding gumption - like Carol Thatcher, now there's a tough cookie - that's the sort of leader you need, not flippity-flop Tony Brown AKA Gordon Blair - no matter what Darth Brown says, he's just going to be worse than Blair and drag this country down even further - Labour have proven time and again they cannot be trusted, so we shouldn't trust them - the last two "Dispatches" on Channel 4 have been really terrifying documentaries to see what crap the current government is getting away with...

...another segway, but damnit I love to rant...yet make a point at the same time.

Derka derka, muhammed jihad!

[erisi236]

i never use my phone anway, so tap away GubMent :D

[axlish]

The outrage came because it landed in the USA's backyard. Period. Now they are going to make extra sure that it doesn't happen again, whether the threat is there or not. Had 9/11 happened in Paris, I doubt the USA would be involved in a war. It is N.I.M.B.Y. on a global scale (not in my back yard).

[p2501]

it's bull****. i'm sorry but the last thing federal LAW ENFORCEMENT agencies need is an unlimited ability to spy on it's populous. i can see the intelligence agenices needing it, but not FBI, DEA and customs.

The Patriot act has very little to do with preventing any terrorist acts.

[dmbfanintn]

I'll chime in with my 0.02 here.

The United States has ALWAYS kept thier citizen in fear of SOMETHING. From Communism to Drugs to Terrorism to whatever. Our history has proven this.

The reason so many people (myself included) get up in arms about the wiretap thing is that regardless of wether you have anything to hide or not, this is America! The land of freedom and liberty. It is against our Constitution to wiretap citizens without a warrant. IT IS AGAINST OUR CONSTITUTION TO WIRETAP CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT!!!!!!!

Do I need to type that again? The administration is BREAKING THE LAW!!!!!!!

Simply as that, no other explanation needed. I have nothinbg to hide either, but our elected officials are BREAKING THE LAW, that is why I have a problem with it.

Compound that with all the other things this administration has done (or not done) and it becomes an issue.

On the terrorism thing, I agree, what terrorism. This administration has created more terrorism than we ever faced before, but I guess when you make the kind of money off terrorism that they do, then creating it is benificial.

To truely understand where GWB is coming from, one must look to the past at the action of his Grandfather, Prescott Bush. He really made his family's fortune off the Nazi's and Americans during the war. His bank was actually shut down and he charged under the Trading with the Enemy Act. Don't believe that, do some research on Prescott Bush.

the Bush family has been getting rich off war for 3 generations!

Questions to all in America, do you feel safer NOW than before 9-11?

How safe did you feel BEFORE (not on) 9-11? Was terrorism even a fleeting thought in your mind?

The admin lkes to throw out "there hasn't been a terrorist attack since 9-11" how many were there before 9-11? OK city don't count, that was an American inside job! I'll talking outside foriegners "attacking us"

I can't wait until Nov when the mid-terms roll around and the democratic party takes the majority, can we say IMPEACHMENT??????

If you can attempt to impeach a president for lying about a blow job, then surely you can impeach one for lying about reasons for war and getting over 2200 american sodiers killed in the process.

Crime against humanity, the United States has killed more INNOCNET iraqis that Saddam ever dreamed of!

[axlish]

"IT IS AGAINST OUR CONSTITUTION TO WIRETAP CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT!!!!!!!"

Times of war gives the president certain powers. I don't know them exactly but I imagine that would entail monitoring incoming international calls without a warrant.

"Questions to all in America, do you feel safer NOW than before 9-11?

How safe did you feel BEFORE (not on) 9-11? Was terrorism even a fleeting thought in your mind?"

In all honesty I was beginning to think about it, about when something would happen over here. Honestly, I am 30 years old and I have been thinking about it all of my life. Since I was a small child I have always seen highjackings, abductions and such on the news and I found it odd that it only happened in the middle east. Do I feel safer? I guess a little. All of the county, state and federal buildings have security in place so in that case, I feel like it will be tough to get a bomb inside. Do I feel indestructible? No. Just a small degree safer.

"OK city don't count, that was an American inside job! I'll talking outside foriegners "attacking us" "

I am not saying you are wrong, but I offer this counter point.

http://www.jaynadavis.com/

I own and have read this book and it is frightening. Ties to Iraq and 9/11 and it appears that the gov't is finally listening to her.

"If you can attempt to impeach a president for lying about a blow job, then surely you can impeach one for lying about reasons for war and getting over 2200 american sodiers killed in the process."

Bill Clinton was impeached because of lying under oath, by his own admission. Hey, I know the WMD's were not found but for Christ's sake, the world agreed that he had them. We got the info from the Brits.

"Crime against humanity, the United States has killed more INNOCNET iraqis that Saddam ever dreamed of!"

This statement is false, and you know it. Saddam killed Suni's in the neighborhood of 10,000, filling mass graves (using chemical weapons no less), not to mention the killing rampages that he allowed his sons to take part in.

[MinionZombie]

That reminded me of something on Five News earlier - thing about solvent abuse. Not sure whether it's at all true, but they were saying how more people die from solvent abuse ("the forgotten drug") than do from cocaine...and a couple of other drugs, can't remember now.

Well, I'm sure concaine etc is far more addictive, but apparently 41% of solvent 'first timers' die - so perhaps the initial mortality rate is much higher than say coke.

Speaking of coke, what's the big deal? Now, I will state clearly that I have never done cocaine...and I don't plan on it either...but I've seen it being done at Uni. They paid a extraordinary amount of money for a tiny little 'bag' (shrink wrap) of the stuff - probably highly mixed with baking powder or something - and it was all gone between three people (mainly two) that night.

One of my housemates tried it - because that's what you do at Uni, lol - and he didn't like it, didn't see what was the point and was put off by the tingling (or whatever cocaine does). Meanwhile another housemate (who is 'that guy who's tried a lot of drugs') tried to say it was great - "it tastes like **** but it makes you well happy" - great selling point, haha - meanwhile his mate from out-of-town is quite a drug-head (and currently on anti-depressants for marijuana-dependency).

And then my housemate who's 'into trying stuff' said one snoot lasts like 10 minutes and gives you a buzz - why bother - just have a couple of beers like everyone else, it's much cheaper.

Though they say cocaine is really cheap in the UK now - well it certainly wasn't this time last year! lol.

Wait...why am I chattin' 'bout drugs again? lol...damn my memory sucks.

To be honest I felt pretty much the same before and after 9/11 - I quite removed from any terrorist target, even 7/7 didn't make me feel "less safe" - there's a constant stream of crime and murder and rape and robbery on the news every night - that makes me feel "less safe".

A terrorist bomb, at least here in the Western world, is one of those "one in a million" things - while crime, rape, murder, robbery - that's much 'better' odds of happening and can happen to anyone.

I'm not 'downplaying' the tragedy of 9/11 or 7/7, they were terrible events, but I'm looking past the hype - it's all talk and no action...to put it in a not-so-good way. It's all over the news, politicans jabber on about it to pass legislation which completely disregards all sense (*cough* ID Cards *cough*) and yet we see very little terrorist activity, no more than we usually do (bar 9/11 - that was a pretty big deal).

After 9/11 - in fact a few years after it - I thought about how things had changed since, and I'll say that things feel much more f'ed up now than they did before - but it was crap before too, but for different reasons. But things feel more f'ed up because of the media frenzy which goes unabated, because of all this legislation and because it's been made into such a huge deal - we've faced many more serious challenges before.

McDonald's is a more relevant ticking time bomb to Western society than terrorism...that's my tuppence anyway.

[axlish]

At least coke supposedly gives you a buzz!

To me the biggest crock is cigarettes. Just pure addiction, no payoff. I quit smoking 9 years ago btw :D

[MinionZombie]

Agreed, fags are stupid (I'm British...so I can say "fag" to mean a ciggie, lol). That's why I 'get' weed - there's a reason to smoke it, you get a 'pay off' and a buzz and you can chill out with it - as long as you just do it now and then at a gathering...when you're waking up and smoking all day long that's when it's bad - too much of everything is a bad thing - but even a little bit of ciggies is bad...and not just for you, anybody in the vicinity as well.

Speaking of coke - it was hilarious how Kate Moss became the bad guy for snorting some coke...meanwhile nobody mentioned how the fashion industry sits atop a giant mountain of snow, booger sugar, the white stuff - coke is nothing new in fashion, Moss just got caught...and now she's just as famous and rich as she was before she lost a couple of contracts.

[DjfunkmasterG]

I'll chime in with my 0.02 here.

The United States has ALWAYS kept thier citizen in fear of SOMETHING. From Communism to Drugs to Terrorism to whatever. Our history has proven this.

The reason so many people (myself included) get up in arms about the wiretap thing is that regardless of wether you have anything to hide or not, this is America! The land of freedom and liberty. It is against our Constitution to wiretap citizens without a warrant. IT IS AGAINST OUR CONSTITUTION TO WIRETAP CITIZENS WITHOUT A WARRANT!!!!!!!

Do I need to type that again? The administration is BREAKING THE LAW!!!!!!!

Simply as that, no other explanation needed. I have nothinbg to hide either, but our elected officials are BREAKING THE LAW, that is why I have a problem with it.

Compound that with all the other things this administration has done (or not done) and it becomes an issue.

On the terrorism thing, I agree, what terrorism. This administration has created more terrorism than we ever faced before, but I guess when you make the kind of money off terrorism that they do, then creating it is benificial.

To truely understand where GWB is coming from, one must look to the past at the action of his Grandfather, Prescott Bush. He really made his family's fortune off the Nazi's and Americans during the war. His bank was actually shut down and he charged under the Trading with the Enemy Act. Don't believe that, do some research on Prescott Bush.

the Bush family has been getting rich off war for 3 generations!

Questions to all in America, do you feel safer NOW than before 9-11?

How safe did you feel BEFORE (not on) 9-11? Was terrorism even a fleeting thought in your mind?

The admin lkes to throw out "there hasn't been a terrorist attack since 9-11" how many were there before 9-11? OK city don't count, that was an American inside job! I'll talking outside foriegners "attacking us"

I can't wait until Nov when the mid-terms roll around and the democratic party takes the majority, can we say IMPEACHMENT??????

If you can attempt to impeach a president for lying about a blow job, then surely you can impeach one for lying about reasons for war and getting over 2200 american sodiers killed in the process.

Crime against humanity, the United States has killed more INNOCNET iraqis that Saddam ever dreamed of!



This is exactly why i FRIGGIN Hate the Bush administration... Although our history shows gov't keep everyone in fear, this administration uses it as a re-election tactic to further screw our country and way of life in the ground. If you ever wanted to know what it was like to live in a communist state... if you live in the USA... you now know.

Someone listening to your calls, telling you how to think, how to feel, and whom to fear.

Ya know what is funny... I am more scared of BUSH and CHENEY than I ever would be of Saddam and Bin Laden.