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Philly_SWAT
06-Jan-2009, 08:34 PM
Many of you are probably aware of what Venn Diagrams are. Some of you may not be. For those who arent, here is a brief description from wikipedia:

Venn diagrams or set diagrams are diagrams that show all hypothetically possible logical relations between a finite collection of sets (groups of things). Venn diagrams were invented around 1880 by John Venn. They are used in many fields, including set theory, probability, logic, statistics, and computer science.
If you would like to know more, here is a link that shows how these work:
http://regentsprep.org/Regents/math/venn/LVenn.htm

I will use an example that is simpler than the one used on that page. Here is a diagram...
http://regentsprep.org/Regents/math/venn/VennDiagram2labeled.gif
For my example, A=dogs with long hair, B=dogs with black hair, and A^B would be dogs with long hair and black hair. This is a simple example, not designed to solve a math problem, like the example they use on the link I provided, but just to show how to draw a Venn diagram. This should be familiar to those of you who have studied logic.

As far as Dawn and the football schedule goes, here would be a diagram...
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l150/Philly_SWAT/venncircle.jpg
For this diagram,
A=all things that were created from 1978 and beyond and still exist "now"
B=things that were created in 1978 and still exist "now"

Something to note...a schedule could be created in 1950, but someone wrote "1978" on it for some reason. But that wouldnt be in these circles. The 1950 schedule would in fact exist (assuming it hadnt been destroyed) but it wouldnt be represented in this diagram. You could draw a different diagram to where it was represented, but that is not my intent here.

Venn diagrams are used to illustrate logic. They are used sometimes when it is difficult to grasp ideas when just discussing them verbally. I think it is safe to assume that the football schedule in Dawn was created in 1978. Therefore, it would belong in the "B" circle, as logically, anything that was created in 1978 would be a subset of "all things created from 1978 and beyond". As the diagram illustrates, the schedule is part of the group of everything that was created from 1978 and beyond, and still exists. Therefore, from a pure logical standpoint, just because you see the 1978 football schedule, it does not mean you are in 1978.

This in and of itself does not shed any light on whether Dawn is set in 1978, 2008, or 2408. But hopefully it dispels the idea that just because you see it in the movie, that makes some kind of point that it is in fact 1978. It would in fact be reasonable to suggest that the movie might in fact be set in 1978. However, it is not logical proof that it is in fact 1978. This is the difference between something being reasonable, and something being logical. Just because something is "reasonable" does not necessarily mean it it true. It might be, it might not be. But from a pure logical discussion, if something is not logical, it is in fact not true. "A schedule from 1978 exists, therefore it is 1978" does not follow logic. As the diagrams show, it could exist indefinately.

This may seem like simple common sense, but some people confuse what is reasonable with what is logical. If "now" was 1978, then you would only see one circle, because the two would overlap. Nothing would have ever been created beyond 1978, as it is still 1978. As time passes, the A circle would get bigger in relation to the B circle, as more and more things were created. But the B circle would always be inside the A circle. Therefore, the existence of something created in 1978 gives no indication as to "when" it is.

One may think this is a waste of energy to type this, but I am bored and have nothing better to do (which makes it reasonable to assume that I dont have much going on in my life right now :D )

EvilNed
06-Jan-2009, 09:24 PM
This is getting preeeettyyyy creeeeppy, Philly...

bassman
06-Jan-2009, 09:29 PM
I....wha?....just....I...ummm.....

cant...


take....


any....


more....





http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/santos_4now/Scanners.gif

Philly_SWAT
06-Jan-2009, 09:34 PM
This is getting preeeettyyyy creeeeppy, Philly...

It is your right I suppose to think that. I dont think it is "creepy" at all. Unless you are staying that logic makes you feel all weird inside...then it is creepy to you, as message board posts, as a crude form of art, are personal.

You said before that I wasnt being "logical" by saying the date on the schedule doesnt mean anything to the timeframe of the movie. It is hard to tell if you are serious, or just having fun, when you make statements like that. Either way, it doesnt matter. This is me being serious, and having fun, illustrating how it is perfectly logical to dismiss the date on the schedule, at least as far as it somehow offering evidence as to "when" Dawn takes place. Like I said, it would be reasonable to say that it does..however, "reasonable" means it may or may not be. But it is in fact logical to say that is not conclusive proof of anything.

sandrock74
06-Jan-2009, 09:45 PM
This in and of itself does not shed any light on whether Dawn is set in 1978, 2008, or 2408.


Actually, not to nitpick, but Dawn doesn't take place in 2408. We know this to be true. Just watch any episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Deep Space 9 or Voyager...not one zombie shown or any reference made to any zombie apocalypse anywhere!

Seriously though, please, for the love of God...let this "debate" come to an end. I can't believe this has generated THREE seperate threads! Please! :annoyed:

ProfessorChaos
06-Jan-2009, 09:47 PM
bassman, you took the post right from my fingertips. i was just about to say something to the effect of "this is about to make my head explode":lol:

no offense to philly and ned, but you guys have dragged this topic/argument/disussion into like three different threads, haven't you?:confused:

Philly_SWAT
06-Jan-2009, 09:53 PM
bassman, you took the post right from my fingertips. i was just about to say something to the effect of "this is about to make my head explode":lol:

no offense to philly and ned, but you guys have dragged this topic/argument/disussion into like three different threads, haven't you?:confused:
Yeah, three so far. I dont like to follow a thread that gets so big, and with multiple people posting to different branches within the thread tree, you cant just read things in the proper order. It is easier for me to start a new thread.

Actually, not to nitpick, but Dawn doesn't take place in 2408. We know this to be true. Just watch any episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Deep Space 9 or Voyager...not one zombie shown or any reference made to any zombie apocalypse anywhere!

Seriously though, please, for the love of God...let this "debate" come to an end. I can't believe this has generated THREE seperate threads! Please! :annoyed:
LOL I actually thought about the star trek thing when I typed the year "2408"! :lol:

But, if you have a more interesting topic, feel free to start it. I would enjoy posting in a different thread as well.

DubiousComforts
06-Jan-2009, 10:01 PM
One may think this is a waste of energy to type this, but I am bored and have nothing better to do (which makes it reasonable to assume that I dont have much going on in my life right now :D )
Is there a Venn diagram to show this, too? :D

Philly_SWAT
06-Jan-2009, 10:11 PM
Is there a Venn diagram to show this, too? :D

The same diagram would work actually.
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l150/Philly_SWAT/venncircle.jpg
Where
A= Things to do with your time
B= Wasting time posting about Venn Diagrams as it relates to a second long shot in a movie made in 1978
:)

EvilNed
06-Jan-2009, 10:39 PM
no offense to philly and ned, but you guys have dragged this topic/argument/disussion into like three different threads, haven't you?:confused:

No offense taken. I'm seriously so done with this!

Philly_SWAT
06-Jan-2009, 10:45 PM
No offense taken. I'm seriously so done with this!

LOL, that is very evident by your continuing replies....

ProfessorChaos
06-Jan-2009, 11:27 PM
....and the beat goes on.

this kinda reminds me of the "unstoppable force/immovable object" thing.

krakenslayer
06-Jan-2009, 11:56 PM
Yeah, this has gone a little too far. I've kinda lost track of where this all began and how this all relates to the football schedule and why the football schedule even matters and I just want to go to sleep.

Philly... might I suggest that you put your smart, logical brain to some use other than pouring over the possible ramifications of a piece of paper incidentally glimpsed for 500 milliseconds in a movie made 30 years ago? You're obviously an intelligent guy, and if all the people in the world with sharp (obsessive?) minds like yours would only focus on solving things like global warming and the financial crisis and stuff instead of arguing minutae like this on internet forums... you could make a difference. ;)

And I really do mean that as a compliment.

Philly_SWAT
07-Jan-2009, 12:03 AM
Yeah, this has gone a little too far. I've kinda lost track of where this all began and how this all relates to the football schedule and why the football schedule even matters and I just want to go to sleep.

Philly... might I suggest that you put your smart, logical brain to some use other than pouring over the possible ramifications of a piece of paper incidentally glimpsed for 500 milliseconds in a movie made 30 years ago? You're obviously an intelligent guy, and if all the people in the world with sharp (obsessive?) minds like yours would only focus on solving things like global warming and the financial crisis and stuff instead of arguing minutae like this on internet forums... you could make a difference. ;)

And I really do mean that as a compliment.
Thanks for the compliment. All I would need to solve the issue of global warming is EvilNed to say how it isnt real...

But if this thread has any value at all (and that of course, it HIGHLY debatable...) it shows that just like the characters in GAR films, seemingly reasonable and intelligent people can strongly disagree on relatively unimportant topics, which offers ample evidence as to why seemingly reasonable and intelligent people disagree on more important issues, such as global warming and the global financial crisis. As Dr Millard Roush says in Dawn "One wonders if its worth saving?"

ProfessorChaos
07-Jan-2009, 12:10 AM
As Dr Millard Roush says in Dawn "One wonders if its worth saving?"

nope.:|

EvilNed
07-Jan-2009, 12:25 AM
The saddest part is probably that this ages long discussion didn't go anywhere but circles anyway. :p

Philly_SWAT
07-Jan-2009, 12:45 AM
The saddest part is probably that this ages long discussion didn't go anywhere but circles anyway. :p

Good pun, what with the Venn diagrams and all.... :)

Thorn
07-Jan-2009, 01:55 PM
I like cheese.

DawnGirl27
08-Jan-2009, 02:12 AM
I like cheese.

Oooh - the con queso kind! :p