Unusual decisions with Roger's Death

[Philly_SWAT]

Does anyone else find it odd how they chose to deal with Roger's death....or more specifically, his "coming back?" Has anyone ever thought of this before?

We realize that over time, Roger had become a valued friend to the other three. And as Peter states earlier "there's still respect in dying". But all three of them knew that Roger was indeed going to come back, despite his comment that he was going to "try not to". So of course, before he died, you would keep him in bed and as comfortable as you could. But once he died, wouldnt it have made more sense, for a variety of reasons, to move his body out of the loft?

We dont know exactly how long Roger had been dead before he came back. Could have been as long as 10-15 minutes, may have been only a minute, maybe less. But at the least, you could have had some ropes/restraints to immediately tie him with upon death. Wrap him up in a carpet. Anything to assure that if he came back while you were moving him he couldnt attack you. Even if they only moved him as far as out the door of the loft into the stairwell.

Now they have to live with the knowledge that they blew the brains out of their good friend right there in their living quarters. That area eventually becomes Peter's bedroom, so now he has to sleep in the exact spot where he blew his buddy away. And as we see throughout the movie, when you shoot a zombie in the head, much blood and brain matter splatter all over. Did they really want to have to clean that up, in their living quarters? At least even if they had dragged him into the stairwell, it would have been easier to clean up out there.

And also, why would Peter chose a S&W Model 36 handgun to do the job? Of course we know that Peter is a good shot, and more than likely wouldnt miss, but why take the chance? A rifle with a scope would seem to be more appropriate. If the shot was off only slightly, the brain may not have been destroyed, requiring another shot, and more trauma to see the re-animated body of Roger thrashing around.

I know the real reasons is something to the effect of "it was like that because it was in the script that way", but that answer is not appropriate in ultra dissection such as this. :)

[SRP76]

It wasn't necessary to do anything with Peter right there and armed. Even on his worst day, he would have been able to fire multiple times, stop, reload, go out to get a sandwich, drink a beer, and then shoot Roger down before he could hobble his way to his feet. As weak as individual zombies are, Peter could have just palmed Roger's forehead and left him groping for hours on end, effortlessly. The only real danger would be if Peter fell asleep on guard, but that wasn't likely, since it didn't seem like the vigil was very long.

[FoodFight]

It's not that odd. Even though they had seen death and ummm, undeath, it may have been the first time they had to deal with a reanimation, let alone that of a friend. The reality of the event, coupled with (hope against hope), that Roger truly would 'not come back' may have led them to keep the practical decisions at arms' length.

As an aside, a sidearm is the primary weapon of a cop, so it was a natural choice given his familiarity with it, the short range needed, no great need of firepower, and lower report. A rifle, especially scoped, would be a poor choice at close quarters, and its' presence may appear that Peter wishes to use it.

[Philly_SWAT]

It wasn't necessary to do anything with Peter right there and armed. Even on his worst day, he would have been able to fire multiple times, stop, reload, go out to get a sandwich, drink a beer, and then shoot Roger down before he could hobble his way to his feet. As weak as individual zombies are, Peter could have just palmed Roger's forehead and left him groping for hours on end, effortlessly. The only real danger would be if Peter fell asleep on guard, but that wasn't likely, since it didn't seem like the vigil was very long.
Yes, I stated that we know that Peter is a good shot. But I would think (or at least hope) that people who were familiar with the dangers of zombies wouldnt keep them around just to prove their ability to palm their foreheads for hours on end. I know that you werent suggesting that, but suffice it to say that it is not wise to casually be around zombies, even if it seems relatively safe. But I was not suggesting they tie him up for fear that he might arise and be able to overpower them, I was suggesting to tie in up to protect themselves as they were moving him, if he were to come back then.


It's not that odd. Even though they had seen death and ummm, undeath, it may have been the first time they had to deal with a reanimation, let alone that of a friend. The reality of the event, coupled with (hope against hope), that Roger truly would 'not come back' may have led them to keep the practical decisions at arms' length.

As an aside, a sidearm is the primary weapon of a cop, so it was a natural choice given his familiarity with it, the short range needed, no great need of firepower, and lower report. A rifle, especially scoped, would be a poor choice at close quarters, and its' presence may appear that Peter wishes to use it.
So you think that even if they were "hoping against hope" that Roger wouldnt come back (which they probably were) that they would not think that with the more realistic expectation that he would come back and need to be shot the matter of blood and brains all in their "home?"

I am not sure why a rifle would be a poor choice in close quarters. Granted under normal circumstances it certainly wouldnt be needed in close quarters, but would certainly provide a greater degree of accuracy, even if the greater accuracy was minimal. If you are trying to put a "friend" down, do you really want to take a chance, even a small chance, of botching it, messing up said friend's dignity in dying?

[FoodFight]

So you think that even if they were "hoping against hope" that Roger wouldnt come back (which they probably were) that they would not think that with the more realistic expectation that he would come back and need to be shot the matter of blood and brains all in their "home?"

I am not sure why a rifle would be a poor choice in close quarters. Granted under normal circumstances it certainly wouldnt be needed in close quarters, but would certainly provide a greater degree of accuracy, even if the greater accuracy was minimal. If you are trying to put a "friend" down, do you really want to take a chance, even a small chance, of botching it, messing up said friend's dignity in dying?

Realistic expectations don't move the film along. These people made a series of poor decisions (as is human nature), without which the film wouldn't be nearly as interesting or suspenseful. Again, I don't think that they thought it through regarding future living accomodations. There is a form of delusion called 'magical thinking' or somesuch where stressed people lose what little grasp of reality that they may possess. They may have spoken of a proper course of action, but they probably didn't accept it on an emotional level.

The optical axis of a scoped rifle is higher than the bore axis. Actually, even open sights are above the axis, but not nearly so much as a scope. This places the point of impact significantly (approximately 1-2 inches) below the crosshairs at short distances. Further, scopes of significant magnification are difficult to focus upon at such short range. Their primary purpose is, after all, greater accuracy at long range.

Even though Peter had SWAT experience, a handgun is still what he is most likely to have had the most experience with. I wouldn't fault his abilities with one, as it clearly did the trick.

[sandrock74]

Yeah, a rifle with a scope would have been major league overkill in that situation. Even I could shoot someone in the head with a handgun at that distance!

I always thought the situation was a bit odd, because I would have moved his body first, but that would have been kind of rude to do while he was still living. Still, as he got worse and became more out-of-sorts, they could have at least thrown a plastic tarp down around him (ala Lethal Weapon 2). It would make disposal and clean up easier.

What was even more strange to me was their choice of disposal of his body. They buried it under like 3 inches of dirt?? Indoors?? Not to be rude, but that would get smelly in a hurry I would think. :barf: They couldn't come up with anything better than that? The first time I saw the movie, I thought for sure that somehow, that would come back to haunt them in some way. Like Roger would uh...re-reanimate or something. At least all the zombies they killed earlier were locked in a freezer (with a lot of food?!?!)!

Makes me wonder what you all would have done about the Roger dying situation?

[ProfessorChaos]

yeah, i recall mentioning this in another thread once. there would be one hell of a mess, and then you'd have to stay in that room. i'd try to do it outside where there'd be little mess.

i can see that maybe they wanted him to be comfortable in his last moments, but i'd try to convince him to let me put him down before he went. if he said no, i'd agree, but rationalize with the group that the inevitable was going to happen, and we couldn't take any chances, so we'd have to get him drunk enough to want to piss off the rooftop onto those shambling fucks who did this to him (talk him into it if necessary) and then shoot him in the back of the head and shove him off the roof. no mess, problem solved.

tough shit, roger, it's a brave new world.:skull:

[MoonSylver]

There is a form of delusion called 'magical thinking' or somesuch where stressed people lose what little grasp of reality that they may possess. They may have spoken of a proper course of action, but they probably didn't accept it on an emotional level.

There it is right there. They were thinking with their hearts not their heads. Acting from emotion, not logic. To a certain, extent, by the time they secure the mall all of them are shell shocked, desensitized, acting on auto pilot. They've almost become zombies themselves, just going through the motions of living.

[Philly_SWAT]

Realistic expectations don't move the film along. These people made a series of poor decisions (as is human nature), without which the film wouldn't be nearly as interesting or suspenseful.
Of course, I mentioned that originally.

The optical axis of a scoped rifle is higher than the bore axis. Actually, even open sights are above the axis, but not nearly so much as a scope. This places the point of impact significantly (approximately 1-2 inches) below the crosshairs at short distances. Further, scopes of significant magnification are difficult to focus upon at such short range. Their primary purpose is, after all, greater accuracy at long range.

Even though Peter had SWAT experience, a handgun is still what he is most likely to have had the most experience with. I wouldn't fault his abilities with one, as it clearly did the trick.
Being most familiar with isnt a good argument I dont think. I am more familiar with PS2 gaming, but am also proficient with Wii gaming. I wasnt faulting his abilities with a handgun either, just saying a rifle would provide more accuracy. Surely, if he knows how to perform an abortion he knows how to adjust rifle sights for shorter distances :)



I always thought the situation was a bit odd, because I would have moved his body first, but that would have been kind of rude to do while he was still living. Still, as he got worse and became more out-of-sorts, they could have at least thrown a plastic tarp down around him (ala Lethal Weapon 2). It would make disposal and clean up easier.
Yes, I had considered mentioning this, but I just asked the question based on the fact that they had already decided to not move him prior to dying. More on this below.


What was even more strange to me was their choice of disposal of his body. They buried it under like 3 inches of dirt?? Indoors?? Not to be rude, but that would get smelly in a hurry I would think. :barf: They couldn't come up with anything better than that? The first time I saw the movie, I thought for sure that somehow, that would come back to haunt them in some way. Like Roger would uh...re-reanimate or something. At least all the zombies they killed earlier were locked in a freezer (with a lot of food?!?!)!

Makes me wonder what you all would have done about the Roger dying situation?
Yes it was strange to bury him under 3 inches of dirt (didnt even look like dirt, just the .....mall moss they had in the plant area). I chalk this up to simple movie logistics....the used what they had available while shooting, wanting a little suspension of disbelief with that. But I never thought he would come back (unless Peter botched the shoot-the-brain job by using a handgun instead of a rifle :) ). But even if technically rude to move him before he died, in a situation like that, politeness would have to take a back seat to practicality. Plus, even immediately after getting bitten, you could tell how emotionally distraught that Roger was, even then his thoughts were still with the "groups interests", saying "There's a lot to get before you can afford to lose me". If he were in his right state of mind, I think he would have agreed that he should be moved out of the loft. If he wasnt, he wouldnt know the difference. So to answer your question, I would have moved him before he turned. You still could have set up a comfortable bed situation somewhere downstairs, and kept a vigil there until he turned.


i can see that maybe they wanted him to be comfortable in his last moments, but i'd try to convince him to let me put him down before he went. if he said no, i'd agree, but rationalize with the group that the inevitable was going to happen, and we couldn't take any chances, so we'd have to get him drunk enough to want to piss off the rooftop onto those shambling fucks who did this to him (talk him into it if necessary) and then shoot him in the back of the head and shove him off the roof. no mess, problem solved.

tough shit, roger, it's a brave new world.:skull:
Not necessarily a bad solution, but that sure is cold brother! Good luck getting him up the ladder!

[DEAD BEAT]

Does anyone else find it odd how they chose to deal with Roger's death....or more specifically, his "coming back?" Has anyone ever thought of this before?

We realize that over time, Roger had become a valued friend to the other three. And as Peter states earlier "there's still respect in dying". But all three of them knew that Roger was indeed going to come back, despite his comment that he was going to "try not to". So of course, before he died, you would keep him in bed and as comfortable as you could. But once he died, wouldnt it have made more sense, for a variety of reasons, to move his body out of the loft?

We dont know exactly how long Roger had been dead before he came back. Could have been as long as 10-15 minutes, may have been only a minute, maybe less. But at the least, you could have had some ropes/restraints to immediately tie him with upon death. Wrap him up in a carpet. Anything to assure that if he came back while you were moving him he couldnt attack you. Even if they only moved him as far as out the door of the loft into the stairwell.

Now they have to live with the knowledge that they blew the brains out of their good friend right there in their living quarters. That area eventually becomes Peter's bedroom, so now he has to sleep in the exact spot where he blew his buddy away. And as we see throughout the movie, when you shoot a zombie in the head, much blood and brain matter splatter all over. Did they really want to have to clean that up, in their living quarters? At least even if they had dragged him into the stairwell, it would have been easier to clean up out there.

And also, why would Peter chose a S&W Model 36 handgun to do the job? Of course we know that Peter is a good shot, and more than likely wouldnt miss, but why take the chance? A rifle with a scope would seem to be more appropriate. If the shot was off only slightly, the brain may not have been destroyed, requiring another shot, and more trauma to see the re-animated body of Roger thrashing around.

I know the real reasons is something to the effect of "it was like that because it was in the script that way", but that answer is not appropriate in ultra dissection such as this. :)


putting way too much thought into this one Philly!;)

also after he powered down that JD i'm sure Peter was more than happy to play cowboy with Rogers body by puttin' a few slugs into his skull to take him out!:eek:

Remember philly he's from da hood and dont mind bustin a cap in dat assss every now and then!:moon:

[RustyHicks]

I often wondered how Franny and Stephen could sleep in that room, knowing that
Roger had died in there and then was shot in there...It would have been creepy to sleep in there...Burying him in the mall, I often wondered why they didn't just throw his body off the roof, have him wrapped up in blankets and then toss him over. They could have easily done that in the movie and then show a shot of Peter looking down at Roger's dog tags he now hold in his hands.
In the book (and it's been years since I've read it) I think they even shoved Roger's body in the freezer with the rest of the corpses.
Interesting thread Phily

[Yojimbo]

I don't know what everyone else here would have done in the same circumstance, but at the distance that Peter was sitting from Roger's remains, I would personally prefer to use a pistol over a rifle, scoped or otherwise. Here are my reasons:

1. A rifle, which in order to be truly effective (forget about shooting from the hip) needs to be shouldered in order to be properly aimed. While at a close distance, this could be a matter of "point sighting" this also puts the person holding the rifle in danger of the "target" being able to lurch forward and grab the barrel of the rifle, thereby making it difficult to properly hit the target.

2. Assuming that it was a Model 36 S&W - for the purposes of this argument, whether it was a S&W, a Taurus or a Dan Wesson is moot - this gun is meant to take out an adversary at this exact distance. From what I remembered the revolver appeared to have at least a 4 inch barrel, and at this range it is likely that any person who is reasonably proficient with a firearms would not miss.

3. Any rifle above a .22 rimfire would likely have caused a greater "splatter" mess, however -- again assuming that Peter was using a .38 caliber S&W model 36 -- a round fired out of Peter's pistol is unlikely to have exited Roger's skull casing. Thererfore, by using the revolver you would not have the cleanup that a rifle -- again, anything above .22 -- would have. Contrast this with Peter taking out Stephen with the lever action super rifle which caused extensive splattering everywhere against the scene where roger puts a round nearly at point blank through the suit wearing ghoul who managed to get through the Penny's gates and just puts a nice and neat hole in the ghoul's forehead with no exit wound. Although we never see the after effect of Peter's bullet on Roger's zombie corpse, I am assuming that it just made a small, dime sized hole in the center of Roger's forehead, with maybe a little trickle of blood.

4. As far as messes go, Roger had already passed, and if my experiences as a funeral director have taught me anything it is that when a person passes away they typically empty their bladder and bowels at the time of death. If this had happened, I am assuming that Peter and Stephen likely used the sheet on which Roger was laying down, and the blankets to wrap him up in- kind of a makeshift shroud. So, any mess that may have come out of the bullet wound would have pretty much been contained on the bed.

5. Since Peter was a proponent in "respect" for the dead, my assumption is that he would have felt that binding and moving Roger's remains into the stairwell would be disrespectful. Besides, he promised his friend that he wouldn't do anything until he was sure Roger was coming back, so perhaps he was hoping that Roger would not be coming back, and therefore he was hoping that additional precautionary measures would not be necessary.



On a side note: I have often wondered if the hideout wall already up when Roger passed? If so, I imagine they would have had a very difficult time getting Roger's remains through the airduct and into the hallway.

Cool topic, Philly! Just when you thought we have discussed everything to death, Philly has come up with another topic that we can all agree to disagree on. Keep it coming brother!

[SRP76]

They weren't about to forcibly tie Roger up, throw him out into the stairwell, or whatever else while he was still alive. And reanimation happens moments after death, so there's no way they were going to do it after he croaked, either.

They did the best thing: sit with him while he dies, then pop him when he tries to get back up.

[sandrock74]

4. As far as messes go, Roger had already passed, and if my experiences as a funeral director have taught me anything it is that when a person passes away they typically empty their bladder and bowels at the time of death. If this had happened, I am assuming that Peter and Stephen likely used the sheet on which Roger was laying down, and the blankets to wrap him up in- kind of a makeshift shroud. So, any mess that may have come out of the bullet wound would have pretty much been contained on the bed.


Dude...I have often wondered about that. Even fresh zombies would stink up to high heaven! LOL...poop trailing out of their pant legs as they shuffle about. EW!

I just hope when it's my time to go, I die like Elvis, quietly and on a toilet!

[Philly_SWAT]

3. Any rifle above a .22 rimfire would likely have caused a greater "splatter" mess, however -- again assuming that Peter was using a .38 caliber S&W model 36 -- a round fired out of Peter's pistol is unlikely to have exited Roger's skull casing. Thererfore, by using the revolver you would not have the cleanup that a rifle -- again, anything above .22 -- would have.
Well, this pretty much clears up this part of my query for me. I have handled many guns in my time, and I am a pretty good shot, but for sure not an expert when it comes to "brain splatter caused by various guns". Assuming everything you say is true, then it does in fact make more sense to have used the handgun.

Since Peter was a proponent in "respect" for the dead, my assumption is that he would have felt that binding and moving Roger's remains into the stairwell would be disrespectful. Besides, he promised his friend that he wouldn't do anything until he was sure Roger was coming back, so perhaps he was hoping that Roger would not be coming back, and therefore he was hoping that additional precautionary measures would not be necessary.

I wasnt suggesting tying up Rogers remains, only being ready to tie/wrap him up if/when he came back. That way he still keeps his "promise" of sorts to Roger, and even if the "mess" was minimal, for three people already suffering from psychological distress at their general circumstances, I would think they wouldnt want to live in a small enclosed area where they had put a bullet in their friend's reanimated brain.

On a side note: I have often wondered if the hideout wall already up when Roger passed? If so, I imagine they would have had a very difficult time getting Roger's remains through the airduct and into the hallway.
I didnt mean the hallway into the mall, just the stairwell right outside the loft door would have been good enough. But they could have taken him much further if they wanted, down the stairs, into the boiler room, etc. But no need to wonder if the hideout wall was up when Roger passed, it definately was. But that was a long way away from the stairwell leading to the loft. If you remember, right before the "I'm gonna try not to" scene, Peter is seen painting the already completed wall, hears Roger screaming, climbs up the rope ladder, and hurries to the hideout. I always wondered how the hell he heard him from so far away. I mean, the noisy boiler room was between the two points.


Cool topic, Philly! Just when you thought we have discussed everything to death, Philly has come up with another topic that we can all agree to disagree on. Keep it coming brother!
Oh, I have all kinds of topics, but I try to space them out! ;)

[Thorn]

I agree with so much that has been said here. I personally would not have left him unrestrained to reanimate. I think in a zombie rising situation anyone bitten should be restrained or sequestered away from the living to ensure the safety of others.

Clean up? Why put yourself through it? After all the bonding they had been through, it would be traumatic. In the real world people pay thousands for the service of having another come in and clean up after your loved one has passed in your residence. It is more sanitary, and the emotion factor is not to be ignore in my opinion.

The residuals of living in a room where he died, reanimated, and was put down for good would weigh on you. Who knows what type of toll it would take?

[Trin]

I think they handled his death pretty much the way they should've handled it. Comfort him and let him be surrounded by his friends in the safe and familiar environment upstairs in the apartment. How much would it suck to be taken down to one of the stores to die?

As for his rising afterward. They could've wrapped him tightly in blankets as the end became near and he was too weak and incoherent to move anyway. That would've completely mitigated the threat of his rising. As soon as he dies you place a bag/sack over his head and wrap the body even tighter and move it out of the apartment to the roof. Even if he rises in transit you are safe.

Then incineration (poor man's cremation) in a dumpster on the roof. It could've been done immediately (without waiting for him to rise) and would've been sure. It's far better than burial in mall dirt.

And on a side topic (which someone else mentioned). Who the heck stacks piles of dead bodies 10 feet from the food? Were they preserving them in case they got really hungry?

[SRP76]

And on a side topic (which someone else mentioned). Who the heck stacks piles of dead bodies 10 feet from the food? Were they preserving them in case they got really hungry?


The cooler they used for the dead folks may not be the one they're getting their food from. There are a dozen eateries in the mall.

There wasn't much else to do with them. People like to say "take them to the roof". Yeah. Try climbing two flights of stairs and then a ladder with a 180-pound bag of meat on your back. Then do it a couple hundred more times. Tell me how efficient it was after you get out of traction.

[FoodFight]

[QUOTE][Then incineration (poor man's cremation) in a dumpster on the roof./QUOTE]

Dumpster....on the roof?

[SRP76]

[Then incineration (poor man's cremation) in a dumpster on the roof.

Dumpster....on the roof?

That one could be done, since you aren't going through the mall. Using supplies from the mall, Stephen and Peter could use the helicopter to locate some random dumpster outside, and airlift it onto the roof.

It would be a dangerous operation, though. Almost as deadly as the truck-moving fiasco.

[Thorn]

That one could be done, since you aren't going through the mall. Using supplies from the mall, Stephen and Peter could use the helicopter to locate some random dumpster outside, and airlift it onto the roof.

It would be a dangerous operation, though. Almost as deadly as the truck-moving fiasco.

True but I don't think ti could have been more poorly planned for than the truck moving operation. ;)

[sandrock74]

The cooler they used for the dead folks may not be the one they're getting their food from. There are a dozen eateries in the mall.

There wasn't much else to do with them. People like to say "take them to the roof". Yeah. Try climbing two flights of stairs and then a ladder with a 180-pound bag of meat on your back. Then do it a couple hundred more times. Tell me how efficient it was after you get out of traction.

I agree that taking the bodies to the roof would have been intensive and back breaking labor. No real need for it. Locking the bodies in a cooler is as good as anything, but my only question is why wouldn't you move the food out of it first? Even with several other places to eat from, you can't just let perfectly good food go to waste. Who knows how long they would have been there?