Fluids (some science Qs)

[LoneCrusader]

so, just curious. if blood doesn't flow, how do they salivate (if that's the word), and why is it that when you shoot them in the head, blood squirts out? just curious, but wouldn't that be impossible if they have no blood flow?

without blood flow, they wouldn't be able to move their muscles, would they? and even if they did, their balance would be so off to the point that they'd just kinda lay there and twitch, not being able to move in any coherent manner.

[Philly_SWAT]

so, just curious. if blood doesn't flow, how do they salivate (if that's the word), and why is it that when you shoot them in the head, blood squirts out? just curious, but wouldn't that be impossible if they have no blood flow?

without blood flow, they wouldn't be able to move their muscles, would they? and even if they did, their balance would be so off to the point that they'd just kinda lay there and twitch, not being able to move in any coherent manner.

The easiest answer (other than you have to suspend your disbelief for stuff like this) is that not enough is known about the inner workings of a zombies bodily systems. If we are willing to accept the premise that "the dead have come back to live, and want to feast on the living", we have to realize that there are no real world answers as to how this is possible. And that any real world facts, such as blood flow, saliva, etc. can not really be used as absolute facts about the zeds, because whatever unknown thing that caused them to reanimate in the first place could have changed the way their "normal" body functions work.

[LoneCrusader]

yeah. i was thinking about posting a thread sometime about the rate of decay and stuff, but i assume you think it's the same thing applied there? that whatever is causing them to get up and eat is the same whateverness causing them to not rot, and etc.?

[Philly_SWAT]

yeah. i was thinking about posting a thread sometime about the rate of decay and stuff, but i assume you think it's the same thing applied there? that whatever is causing them to get up and eat is the same whateverness causing them to not rot, and etc.?

Well, as someone who sees the films happening in the same timeline and universe, it appears to me that they are in fact rotting. But the exact nature of that rotting would have to be considered an unknown. In the real world, a dead body exposed to the elements (or not exposed, for that matter) would eventually rot down to nothing. After a while there would be nothing left but bones, and eventually, even bones would cease to be. Dust to dust. But it would seem at least possible to me that they might be a..."rot ending point", where after reaching a certain point of decay, decay slows down dramatically, or stops. Without a long painstaking research spanning many years, there would be no way to answer those questions. In the Romeo movies, society has disintegrated so fast, as far as we can see, that there is no way that any long term scientific study of this type could be conducted. So I prefer to think of these kinds of questions this way. Seeing as something has happened that the history of mans medical knowledge can not explain (i.e. the dead rising) that this is a deal totally outside of our collective knowledge. So while many theories can be speculated about, some sound, some not, they will mostly be speculation, as no proper scientific methods can be implemented. Things easily observed with the naked eye, such as they seem to be able to be stopped by a shot to the head, can be easily excepted as fact without the need for a large scientific study. Things such as rate of decay, how to the body systems function (or not function) now, these are questions that we can never have 100% knowledge about. Hell, there is much now in the real world that we do not have 100% knowledge about with the human body. The only real scientific EVIDENCE we are shown in the films comes from Dr. Logan, and he is mentally unstable, so we are forced to question his conclusions as well.

[sandrock74]

The simple and quick answer is: "artistic license"! :lol:

[krakenslayer]

I agree with Philly's "rot ending point" and would like to add this:

I think the zombies hearts DO continue to beat, and their glands DO continue to produce fluids, just as we can see that their lungs continue to inhale.

Here's what I reckon - when a zombie revives, all it's intact bodily functions start up again, albeit less effectively (i.e. at a lower metabolic rate). As Doctor Logan said - "They are the same basic animal, just functioning less perfectly". However, they do not require these functions to continue to "survive" but each bodily process will continue to work away automatically until something (say, a bullet) stops it. You see, things like hearbeat, breathing, digestion, and (crucially, for my argument) hunger are all basic processes controlled by the same area of the brain - the hindbrain - the most primal part of the human mind, which we all know is active in a zombie. So I think a zombie doesn't need these functions, but its brain carries them out anyway.

Now this explains several things:


Why a zombie does not rot away within a few months (their hearts are still weakly pumping blood)

Why some zombies are a lot more rotten than others from the same time period (these unlucky ghouls have had their circulatory system more severely damaged, hence no bloodflow and more rot)

Why red blood spurts from a zombie's wounds

Why Bub and others are seen to salivate

What happens to all the food zombies eat (they gradually digest it and slowly shit their pants)

Why zombies breathe

Can a zombie carry on indefinitely without eating flesh? (no, zombies that don't eat decay faster, although may still continue to exist on no food for years thanks to their extremely low metabolism)

[MoonSylver]

I agree with Philly's "rot ending point" and would like to add this:

I think the zombies hearts DO continue to beat, and their glands DO continue to produce fluids, just as we can see that their lungs continue to inhale.

Here's what I reckon - when a zombie revives, all it's intact bodily functions start up again, albeit less effectively (i.e. at a lower metabolic rate). As Doctor Logan said - "They are the same basic animal, just functioning less perfectly". However, they do not require these functions to continue to "survive" but each bodily process will continue to work away automatically until something (say, a bullet) stops it. You see, things like hearbeat, breathing, digestion, and (crucially, for my argument) hunger are all basic processes controlled by the same area of the brain - the hindbrain - the most primal part of the human mind, which we all know is active in a zombie. So I think a zombie doesn't need these functions, but its brain carries them out anyway.

Now this explains several things:


Why a zombie does not rot away within a few months (their hearts are still weakly pumping blood)

Why some zombies are a lot more rotten than others from the same time period (these unlucky ghouls have had their circulatory system more severely damaged, hence no bloodflow and more rot)

Why red blood spurts from a zombie's wounds

Why Bub and others are seen to salivate

What happens to all the food zombies eat (they gradually digest it and slowly shit their pants)

Why zombies breathe

Can a zombie carry on indefinitely without eating flesh? (no, zombies that don't eat decay faster, although may still continue to exist on no food for years thanks to their extremely low metabolism)


Hmmm...that's an interesting one I've NEVER heard before...& I like it!

I'm with Philly 100% on there are so many unknowns on WHAT brought them back in the first place & WHAT kind of changes it has wrought in them to facilitate the act of getting back up & walking around in the FIRST place. It's long been my thought that WHATEVER it is it seems to have made sufficient biological changes to allow them to function in their new state. Which is why I've always thought was the reason they don't completely rot away, why their fluids stay fluid, how they can consume matter & not explode, not freeze up in the winter, why they're not infested w/ maggots & consumed, etc, etc, etc.

[Thorn]

A lot of what Kraken says I agree with and have thought myself at times. There is some good info to support and some that does not support some of these theories if Dr. Logan is to be believed. (he could just be mad, or incompetent who knows)

But some things he touches on in Day...

"ON REVIVAL,
THE RATE OF DECOMPOSITION
SLOWS SUBSTANTIALLY."

"THE BRAIN IS THE ENGINE, SARAH,
THE MOTOR THAT DRIVES THEM."

"THEY DON'T NEED ANY BLOOD FLOW,
DON'T NEED ANY
OF THEIR INTERNAL ORGANS."

Even after he severs all the vital organs the corpse continues to function, so it kind of made me change my view that it was slowed down processes that started up again or functioned at a massively reduced rate a long while back.

Again Logan could be mad, or wrong but he did have a white jacket... mostly. So he must be an expert ;)

[krakenslayer]

A lot of what Kraken says I agree with and have thought myself at times. There is some good info to support and some that does not support some of these theories if Dr. Logan is to be believed. (he could just be mad, or incompetent who knows)

But some things he touches on in Day...

"ON REVIVAL,
THE RATE OF DECOMPOSITION
SLOWS SUBSTANTIALLY."

"THE BRAIN IS THE ENGINE, SARAH,
THE MOTOR THAT DRIVES THEM."

"THEY DON'T NEED ANY BLOOD FLOW,
DON'T NEED ANY
OF THEIR INTERNAL ORGANS."

Even after he severs all the vital organs the corpse continues to function, so it kind of made me change my view that it was slowed down processes that started up again or functioned at a massively reduced rate a long while back.

Again Logan could be mad, or wrong but he did have a white jacket... mostly. So he must be an expert ;)

I don't think Logan says anything that contradicts my theory, in fact I partly based it on the info he gives on Day.

As you mentioned, he says "On revival, the rate of decomposition slows substantially." Now, unless we want to get into trying to explain the mysterious cause of the zombie holocaust (something I'd rather we didn't do), then we have to accept that this must be due to some kind of physical process preventing the tissue from necrotising. Something has to be supplying oxygen to the cells. Hence, my blood-flow theory.

"They don't need any blood-flow, they don't need any of their internal organs." The operative word here is "need"; that he even considers this worth mentioning suggests to me that it's an established fact among the scientists that most of the zombies still have a semi-functioning metabolism. He removes the internal organs of the lab zombie to demonstrate their continued function in the absence of bloodflow and internal organs - in fact, to deliberately stop its bloodflow and organ processes. What he doesn't touch on is whether this act will increase the zombie's rate of decomposition or not. I suspect it would.

What I propose is that something is keeping the brain alive - probably not a virus, but that's for another thread - separately and (for our purposes) in isolation from the rest of the body. The brain, in its hardwired role as the regulator of the body, brings about the reactivation of bodily processes as well as remembered behaviours. The brain controls them, but their destruction does not have any detrimental effect on the reanimated brain, at least not in the short term. Their destruction does, however, bring about other failures in the body's mechanics which limits the undead body's effectiveness at seeking food, preventing tissue decay and protecting itself from the elements.

[Thorn]

I don't think Logan says anything that contradicts my theory, in fact I partly based it on the info he gives on Day.

As you mentioned, he says "On revival, the rate of decomposition slows substantially." Now, unless we want to get into trying to explain the mysterious cause of the zombie holocaust (something I'd rather we didn't do), then we have to accept that this must be due to some kind of physical process preventing the tissue from necrotising. Something has to be supplying oxygen to the cells. Hence, my blood-flow theory.

Well I agree with this in part. The rate of decomposition indeed slows as was mentioned, but it does not HAVE to hold true that blood is still supplying oxygen to the cells. It could be a mutation of the cells themselves a further effect or byproduct of the virus.


"They don't need any blood-flow, they don't need any of their internal organs." The operative word here is "need"; that he even considers this worth mentioning suggests to me that it's an established fact among the scientists that most of the zombies still have a semi-functioning metabolism.

Again this is something I do not see as necessarily the case, but more your assumption. 1 does not have to point to the other. Just because he Says "they do not need their organs" does not inherently mean that he is implying that they still work, but if you take them out that's cool too... In fact it is more logical to assume he is being literal. "They do not need their organs" period.


He removes the internal organs of the lab zombie to demonstrate their continued function in the absence of blood flow and internal organs - in fact, to deliberately stop its blood flow and organ processes. What he doesn't touch on is whether this act will increase the zombie's rate of decomposition or not. I suspect it would.

I will have to re watch it, but I will take your word for it that he does not mention that it would in any way expedite decomposition. What the demonstration was clearly designed to show (in Logan's mind) was that they would not benefit from eating as there was nothing to help them process the food.

In fact I think his whole point is they do not NEED to eat at all they just desire food, and either somewhere deep down inside we all have cannibalistic tendencies (on a primal level) or it is a kill or be killed thing, or just that they are the new top of the food chain. Maybe they DO need human blood or flesh (nutrients or even the DNA within)to maintain the brain, maybe it is absorbed through the cells over time to help keep the body fresh, and the brain active. I do not know. Like you said there are things we are better off not trying to figure out. Like the cause of the virus, for one I have no desire to ever know.



What I propose is that something is keeping the brain alive - probably not a virus, but that's for another thread - separately and (for our purposes) in isolation from the rest of the body. The brain, in its hardwired role as the regulator of the body, brings about the reactivation of bodily processes as well as remembered behaviours. The brain controls them, but their destruction does not have any detrimental effect on the reanimated brain, at least not in the short term. Their destruction does, however, bring about other failures in the body's mechanics which limits the undead body's effectiveness at seeking food, preventing tissue decay and protecting itself from the elements.

Seems logical enough, and it works well with my theory that the cells are able to derive nutrients in a non traditional way such as cellular absorption rather than a process of digestion.

Logan in my mind shows they zombies do not need organs to live, they still want food.

It is my believe that they will continue to live on for some time with the slowed decayed process by absorbing what they need through their kills. Well if you have a stomach it just gives you longer to do so as there are more cells/tissue to absorb what you need but that might even work through just the mouth. Who really knows? It is all just theorem.

[darth los]

I agree with Philly's "rot ending point" and would like to add this:

I think the zombies hearts DO continue to beat, and their glands DO continue to produce fluids, just as we can see that their lungs continue to inhale.

Here's what I reckon - when a zombie revives, all it's intact bodily functions start up again, albeit less effectively (i.e. at a lower metabolic rate). As Doctor Logan said - "They are the same basic animal, just functioning less perfectly". However, they do not require these functions to continue to "survive" but each bodily process will continue to work away automatically until something (say, a bullet) stops it. You see, things like hearbeat, breathing, digestion, and (crucially, for my argument) hunger are all basic processes controlled by the same area of the brain - the hindbrain - the most primal part of the human mind, which we all know is active in a zombie. So I think a zombie doesn't need these functions, but its brain carries them out anyway.

Now this explains several things:


Why a zombie does not rot away within a few months (their hearts are still weakly pumping blood)

Why some zombies are a lot more rotten than others from the same time period (these unlucky ghouls have had their circulatory system more severely damaged, hence no bloodflow and more rot)

Why red blood spurts from a zombie's wounds

Why Bub and others are seen to salivate

What happens to all the food zombies eat (they gradually digest it and slowly shit their pants)

Why zombies breathe

Can a zombie carry on indefinitely without eating flesh? (no, zombies that don't eat decay faster, although may still continue to exist on no food for years thanks to their extremely low metabolism)





Those are all interesting theories and some of them might very well be correct.

Perhaps the very name "walking dead" is a misnomer. They obviously are not dead because dead things don't walk around and try to eat you. They WERE dead and have been reanimated through some unknown force. They must have retained some semblence of their inner body function, otherwise, as has already been pointed out, they would not be able to salivate, breathe or make any noise or even be able to move around.

As also was already pointed out, they exhibit characteristics that suggest the continuation of various bodily functions. Defacation and urination are most likely among them and if that's true it means that their inner "workings" are still continuing beyond "death".

Also, we don't even know what makes us alive let alone what makes us dead. What is it that gives us that life spark? Our soul? If so do these ghouls still have it? these are all questions that till this point we have not been able to answer and until we do so it is doubtfull that we can ascertain just what it is that make these ghouls "tick".




:cool:

[MoonSylver]

Those are all interesting theories and some of them might very well be correct.

Perhaps the very name "walking dead" is a misnomer. They obviously are not dead because dead things don't walk around and try to eat you. They WERE dead and have been reanimated through some unknown force. They must have retained some semblence of their inner body function, otherwise, as has already been pointed out, they would not be able to salivate, breathe or make any noise or even be able to move around.

As also was already pointed out, they exhibit characteristics that suggest the continuation of various bodily functions. Defacation and urination are most likely among them and if that's true it means that their inner "workings" are still continuing beyond "death".

Also, we don't even know what makes us alive let alone what makes us dead. What is it that gives us that life spark? Our soul? If so do these ghouls still have it? these are all questions that till this point we have not been able to answer and until we do so it is doubtfull that we can ascertain just what it is that make these ghouls "tick".

All very good points.

[carpetbeggar]

What about the fact that they don't consume water?
Think about what would happen to a human who doesn't take in fluids, they dehydrate to the point that they would die and become a raisin. :skull:
The zeds would quickly "dry up" and shrivel away to nothing pretty quick.
Imagine the dead who were in areas like Arizona, Las Vegas, The Middle East, etc, there is no way they would last very long as there brain would slowly cook without water to keep hydrated and keep cool.

I always said that if an outbreak did occur that is would be just a short-lived phenomena as the zeds would just wither away to nothing within a month or so, or even sooner. I think 28 Days Later dealt with this realistically as they all just starved to death and dehydrated away to nothing eventually(even though they were not technically dead).

[MoonSylver]

What about the fact that they don't consume water?
Think about what would happen to a human who doesn't take in fluids, they dehydrate to the point that they would die and become a raisin. :skull:
The zeds would quickly "dry up" and shrivel away to nothing pretty quick.
Imagine the dead who were in areas like Arizona, Las Vegas, The Middle East, etc, there is no way they would last very long as there brain would slowly cook without water to keep hydrated and keep cool.

I always said that if an outbreak did occur that is would be just a short-lived phenomena as the zeds would just wither away to nothing within a month or so, or even sooner. I think 28 Days Later dealt with this realistically as they all just starved to death and dehydrated away to nothing eventually(even though they were not technically dead).

Since they're not still alive , I would think they don't really NEED water the same way we do. As far as drying up, as I've said in relation to other types of "zombie biology" questions, who knows WHAT kinds of changes have been made in their physiology to facilitate their return from death & sustained existence? Maybe their fluids are more viscous now, more resilient to evaporation, etc. Maybe they somehow take in the moisture contained in what they consume.

The more biology questions that arise, insofar as the huge number of changes that would need to be made to get a corpse back & walking & KEEP it that way, really makes me thing there would have to be some kind of intervention of a higher power, such as was being discussed in the livestock thread, which to me makes the whole series that much scarier because of the implications that thought contains...:eek:

[Danny]

dramatic effect.

their movies.;)