The Washington Bunkers

[LoneCrusader]

I know I ask a lot of hypothetical questions and questions that sometimes are impossible to answer and such, and I'm sorry, but it usually gets an interesting thread going anyway. So I'll ask this one. Okay, in Day of the Dead, Sarah says something about Washington having "more sophisticated shelters" and that they'd send people to look for them.

Well, do you think that's true? Do you think that DC had shelters with people in them? It's true that they had more sophisticated shelters, and it seems like they'd be much more protected and stock-piled. That'd also be the place they'd first send the high-up gov't folk and high-up military folk. What do you think about the chances of any of those shelters surviving?

Or do you think Sarah was just "hoping against hope" which is the theme many times with GAR?

[FoodFight]

Probably a reference to the Greenbriar (?) in W. Va.

[sandrock74]

Oh, I'm sure government higher ups were hiding their butts in there as soon as things got scary. Sarah was probably "hoping against hope" that anyone was still there. Personally, I think the president would have been shuffled aboard Air Force-1 and flown to someplace roomier or more secure, like NORAD.

The Bunkers in Washington, DC were mentioned in the comic book Marvel Zombies. The zombified superheroes forced their way into them and ate everyone hiding inside.

Neat.

[SRP76]

When did she mention anything about shelters? I thought she said something about the research labs (where they worked before being forced to run for their lives) being more advanced, or something. Don't remember anything about bunkers.

[Mike70]

When did she mention anything about shelters? I thought she said something about the research labs (where they worked before being forced to run for their lives) being more advanced, or something. Don't remember anything about bunkers.

she does. i can't remember her exact words but it's something along the lines of "there have to be people left in (or from) washington, they have more sophisticated shelters than us. there have to people left in those shelters."

though i agree with sandrock, NORAD would be the more logical place to take the president and senior members of the govt. that place can survive a small nuke hitting within a mile or two of it, it can certainly keep out zombies.

[Zombill]

lets not forget that vip shelter that john conner ends up at the end of t3

[Philly_SWAT]

I think it is safe to assume that the President would not be in Washington, he would be at Norad or some other such safe location. I think it is also safe to assume that a great portion of the power structure of the country would in fact still be in Washington, military people, scientific people, and political people. That is the hub of power in this country, so it stands to reason they wouldnt ALL leave. It brings to mind Logan's question "where would you go?"

Sarah's exact words were these:

There have to be survivors in Washington. They have more sophisticated shelters than this one. There have to be people in those shelters who know about us, who know where we are. With no radio contact they'll come looking for us".

Either by pure common sense or by direct knowledge, Sarah knows that at least there WERE some shelters in Washington. Whether or not they still exist, or if there are any survivors there, is pure speculation on her part. As they have had no communications from Washington in some time, she would have no way to know one way or the other. It could be a case of "hoping against hope", or a case of thinking about how fucked up their little group was, and 12 of them were still alive, so if they could survive than others must be able to as well.

[Thorn]

Well said all.

I agree that there would be people around other than those in the bunker in Day, I am certain that the President would no longer be in Washington. For those not familiar with the place it is a cesspool and there is a large population center there, despite the added security you would not want to be there very long during a dead rising scenario in my opinion.

Any good military tactician would have to want pull out of there to a more easily fortified location.

[MoonSylver]

I've always thought there probably ARE other shelters out there, with survivors in them. And they're probably all in the exact same situation as Sarah & crew. Cut off & isolated from each other & playing the survival game.

As for the Pres & all the other Washington types? Yeah, they've hightailed it outta town & are in whatever types of shelters they have set up in the event of a nuclear war, etc. ( slightly off topic, but IIRC isn't there a quick cut in Dawn '04 of the zombies storming over the fence of the White House & rushing the chopper on the pad & being shot at by the millitary?)

[zombiekiller]

When did she mention anything about shelters? I thought she said something about the research labs (where they worked before being forced to run for their lives) being more advanced, or something. Don't remember anything about bunkers.

she mentioned it when they was having the meeting and billy said he could not reach anyone on his w.w.2 radio.

[rightwing401]

The speculation's interesting. In fact, I'd recomend reading the revised script for day of the dead in the fiction section. It mentions that the last contact any of them had with Washington was that rouge elements of the military had launched a coup because they were not satisfied with how the civilian leadership was handling the situation and that there was heavy fighting between them and the forces still loyal to the government.

Were there bunkers in Washington that still worked. Surely. People inside, that depends how many and who. Would someone come looking for them? I very much doubt it.

[krakenslayer]

There'd be lots of bunkers, bases, hideaways, fortresses, submarines and whatever else all over the place where people could be surviving, all over the world. The question is, would the inevitable cabin fever that set in once they were safely sealed up together cause them to wipe each other out like the Day crew?

Of course, we now know that while the bunker-dwellers in Day were agonising over whether they were indeed the last humans on Earth or not, a guy (Governor? CEO? Politician? Gang lord?) called Kaufman was busy rallying survivors to build himself a safe haven in a skyscraper, and thousands of survivors were banding together in the ruins of Pittsburgh, Cleveland and probably most other big cities. The problem was that the "relays were out" (and presumably they had lost their links to comms satellites) and the Day gang were isolated on a peninsula full of dead grannies and grandpas.

However, we have to put this out of our minds when we watch Day and try to believe that they really might be the last people, because it kills a lot of the desperation and claustrophobia otherwise.



Incidentally, how long after the fall of civilisation do you guys think Day and Land take place? I've heard people say three months and three years, respectively, but I think longer.

If Day really was set three months after the outbreak, that probably places it around the time of the latter stages of Dawn, and I get the feeling the people have been in the bunkers a lot longer than that. Not only that, but the city we see at the start looks very weathered. I'd say a year minimum. The original script was set very specifically five years after the outbreak, but that's probably too long in the case of the final movie - I think three years would be a sensible maximum.

Three years wouldn't be enough for Kaufman to build a stable (ish) mini-nation from scratch with its own currency - which it is hinted is shared with other settlements - and military. I'd guess it would take at least five to ten years to get to that stage. Also, the overgrowth of plants and dilapidated nature of the abandoned towns suggests a period of several years of neglect.

[MoonSylver]

Geez Kracken, are you my lost Scottish twin brother or something? Every time you post something, I find myself in 100% agreement! :D

You better say something I can disagree about, or I'm gonna think you're reading my mind while I'm asleep or something....:shifty::lol:

[Yojimbo]

Geez Kracken, are you my lost Scottish twin brother or something? Every time you post something, I find myself in 100% agreement! :D

You better say something I can disagree about, or I'm gonna think you're reading my mind while I'm asleep or something....:shifty::lol:
Funny thing is, I was just about to post the same thing -- that is that I once again agree with Kraken, but you beat me to it Moon. :lol:


If Day really was set three months after the outbreak, that probably places it around the time of the latter stages of Dawn, and I get the feeling the people have been in the bunkers a lot longer than that. Not only that, but the city we see at the start looks very weathered. I'd say a year minimum. The original script was set very specifically five years after the outbreak, but that's probably too long in the case of the final movie - I think three years would be a sensible maximum.

Three years wouldn't be enough for Kaufman to build a stable (ish) mini-nation from scratch with its own currency - which it is hinted is shared with other settlements - and military. I'd guess it would take at least five to ten years to get to that stage. Also, the overgrowth of plants and dilapidated nature of the abandoned towns suggests a period of several years of neglect.

Yeah, I know this was discussed before, but again I agree that DAY had to have been much more than three months in, and Land had to be several years after the fall.

[Mike70]

Three years wouldn't be enough for Kaufman to build a stable (ish) mini-nation from scratch with its own currency - which it is hinted is shared with other settlements - and military.

actually kraken, the currency being used in land is old style (before the zombie outbreak) US dollars. i put up a screen shot in a shitstorm thread about the use of money in land that clearly shows that they are US dollars.

in fact you can find said screen shot in post #50 in this thread:
http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?t=8994&referrerid=286

[MoonSylver]

Funny thing is, I was just about to post the same thing -- that is that I once again agree with Kraken, but you beat me to it Moon. :lol:

Weird. Triplets? You're reading my mind too?:stunned: (actually, I was just looking for a creative way to once again agree with out feeling repetitive.);)

[krakenslayer]

actually kraken, the currency being used in land is old style (before the zombie outbreak) US dollars. i put up a screen shot in a shitstorm thread about the use of money in land that clearly shows that they are US dollars.

in fact you can find said screen shot in post #50 in this thread:
http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?t=8994&referrerid=286

The currency might have been physically the same, although I suspect he printed his own currency that looked superficially similar (i.e. didn't have a big grinning picture of Dennis Hopper in place of GW) for patriotic and "sentimental" reasons, since old-style currency would be so easy to scavenge from the ruins it would cause Zimbabwean-scale hyperinflation. But whether or not this was the case, Kaufman still had to horde enough of it, distribute it and build it back up into a working economy.


Geez Kracken, are you my lost Scottish twin brother or something? Every time you post something, I find myself in 100% agreement! :D

You better say something I can disagree about, or I'm gonna think you're reading my mind while I'm asleep or something....:shifty::lol:


Funny thing is, I was just about to post the same thing -- that is that I once again agree with Kraken, but you beat me to it Moon. :lol:

Yeah, I know this was discussed before, but again I agree that DAY had to have been much more than three months in, and Land had to be several years after the fall.

We're just more intelligent than everyone else here and invariably come to the correct conclusion. :elol::elol:

[Safari Mike]

Ok, if you are going to live completely off the grid and in isolation, then trapping is your mainstay, not hunting etc... Better brush up on snares, traps, edible plants, cooking unsafe plants to make them safe, etc.


A great book on desert environs is by David Alloway, "Desert Survival Skills".

[Philly_SWAT]

Incidentally, how long after the fall of civilisation do you guys think Day and Land take place? I've heard people say three months and three years, respectively, but I think longer.

If Day really was set three months after the outbreak, that probably places it around the time of the latter stages of Dawn, and I get the feeling the people have been in the bunkers a lot longer than that. Not only that, but the city we see at the start looks very weathered. I'd say a year minimum. The original script was set very specifically five years after the outbreak, but that's probably too long in the case of the final movie - I think three years would be a sensible maximum.

Three years wouldn't be enough for Kaufman to build a stable (ish) mini-nation from scratch with its own currency - which it is hinted is shared with other settlements - and military. I'd guess it would take at least five to ten years to get to that stage. Also, the overgrowth of plants and dilapidated nature of the abandoned towns suggests a period of several years of neglect.


Geez Kracken, are you my lost Scottish twin brother or something? Every time you post something, I find myself in 100% agreement! :D


Funny thing is, I was just about to post the same thing -- that is that I once again agree with Kraken, but you beat me to it Moon. :lol:

Yeah, I know this was discussed before, but again I agree that DAY had to have been much more than three months in, and Land had to be several years after the fall.

The three of you seem to have observed, either consciously or subconsciously, what I have been saying all along, that Day happens a looooong time after Dawn, not 3 months, as many people like to say. As far as kracken and Kaufan's currency, as already pointed out, it was US dollars. But you are right, 3 years would not seem to be enough time to rebuild a society from scratch. Therefore, it makes much more sense that Kaufman and company in the Green were not "rebuilding" a society, but holding onto the old one.

As I have said before, downtown Pittsburgh is unique in that it would be one of the few downtown areas in the country that could easily be cordoned off in this manner. It is much more likely that they held the "Golden Triangle" not long after the outbreak, rather than think that the downtown had fallen like everywhere else and they decided to go in and retake it. I mean think about it. If downtown Pitt was overrun by zombies, you know how difficult it would be to retake it? And all of those people living the high life in the tower, worried about buying champagne and fine clothes from the stores...you think that they had the mental and physical abilities to help in such a massive undertaking? I dont. So what were all of them doing to stay alive when the triangle was not a safe zone? And for that matter, all the peasants on the streets? And when you add up all the guys Kaufman seems to have as "paid muscle" (Cholo, Riley, the Dead Reckoning gang, his personal security) that would not be enough guys to take over a major downtown area. Therefore, it is much more likely that the city was HELD, not re-taken.

Therefore to address kracken's original question "Incidentally, how long after the fall of civilisation do you guys think Day and Land take place?" I submit that I think the events in Land take place within a couple of years after the initial outbreak, and the events in Day take place quite some time after that.

[krakenslayer]

Therefore to address kracken's original question "Incidentally, how long after the fall of civilisation do you guys think Day and Land take place?" I submit that I think the events in Land take place within a couple of years after the initial outbreak, and the events in Day take place quite some time after that.

So you think Day took place after Land? Wow, I'd never considered that; I always assumed Land was chronologically the last in the timeline. Interesting...

I still think Land takes place in the far future. In addition to the dilapidation and desolation of the outside world, and the whole seen-it-all attitude of the survivors, I remember in the original script, during the prison scene, when asked about his life "before", Riley says something to the effect of "I had a normal life, went to college, studied engineering... then one day everything changed...". This tells us that Riley was in his early twenties when the outbreak began, and since he's at least in his early thirties by the time of Land, it places it about ten years after the outbreak.

[SRP76]

They didn't have 3 years of fuel in the tanks in Day. So it couldn't take place after Land.

And I find it ridiculous that Rhodes would still be impeccably clean, with top-of-the-line hairstyling after 3 years in a cave.

[krakenslayer]

They didn't have 3 years of fuel in the tanks in Day. So it couldn't take place after Land.

And I find it ridiculous that Rhodes would still be impeccably clean, with top-of-the-line hairstyling after 3 years in a cave.

Well, I sort of agree, sort of disagree. No, I don't think Day took place after Land, but I do think it took place about three years after the initial outbreak, with Land happening a long time after that. Rhodes does look impeccable, but I'd say that's due to his control-freak, disciplinarian nature.

[Thorn]

Well, I sort of agree, sort of disagree. No, I don't think Day took place after Land, but I do think it took place about three years after the initial outbreak, with Land happening a long time after that. Rhodes does look impeccable, but I'd say that's due to his control-freak, disciplinarian nature.

For what it is worth at all, from the original Day script George planned Day to take place 5 years after Night.


DAY
OF
THE
DEAD
(The original script)
by George A. Romero

FADE IN:
1 EXT. THE EMPTY STREET OF A CITY - DAY

No people. A FEW CARS AND TRUCKS are parked at odd angles, abandoned.
A TITLE FADES IN, one phrase at a time.

FIVE YEARS...
SINCE THE DEAD FIRST WALKED.


Also if you read a number of the interviews about Land even ones that compare it to ...of the Dead they mention how they went out of their way to make the zombies look as if they had aged, been walking around dead for some time decaying. They added prosthetics to sink in their eyes, used clothing that was much more abused and weathered to show passing of time, and the make up was done as such to show that these corpses had been rotting for quite sometime. Skin pulling away in shreds, showing muscle underneath.

I will have to disagree with the assumption land takes place after Day and I would be glad to cite exact quotes to help prove out my point if you like.

[krakenslayer]

Yep, the zombies in both Land and Day are very heavily weathered.



I will have to disagree with the assumption land takes place after Day and I would be glad to cite exact quotes to help prove out my point if you like.

By all means, I'd be interested to read them. :)

[SRP76]

Doesn't matter what the Day script says, since that movie never saw the light of day. What appeared on the screen is a completely different movie. And Land was written based on what happened in Day of the Dead, not on what happened in a script that was never shot.

Still haven't explained how you think they didn't burn through their fuel in 3 years. The power would have been off for months/years by the time the movie started, if they'd been there that long. Also, the limited alcohol these people brought with them wouldn't last 3 years. And where did Rhodes keep getting his hair gel from? Don't try to tell me the military keeps a 3-year supply of it at all research installations. And then we have the zombies "more and more every day". For there to be years' worth, there'd have to be a million-ghoul ocean pushing on that chainlink. That fence would have come down long before then.

...and so forth. Day didn't take place very far into the outbreak.

[Philly_SWAT]

So you think Day took place after Land? Wow, I'd never considered that; I always assumed Land was chronologically the last in the timeline. Interesting...
Yes, I have been of that opinion for a long time. There are many threads here about that topic. I realize that most do not agree with me. More about this at the end.


I still think Land takes place in the far future. In addition to the dilapidation and desolation of the outside world, and the whole seen-it-all attitude of the survivors, I remember in the original script, during the prison scene, when asked about his life "before", Riley says something to the effect of "I had a normal life, went to college, studied engineering... then one day everything changed...". This tells us that Riley was in his early twenties when the outbreak began, and since he's at least in his early thirties by the time of Land, it places it about ten years after the outbreak.
Actors generally "play young" as a matter of course, meaning the characters they play are much younger than their actual age.


They didn't have 3 years of fuel in the tanks in Day. So it couldn't take place after Land.

And I find it ridiculous that Rhodes would still be impeccably clean, with top-of-the-line hairstyling after 3 years in a cave.
Top-of-the-line hairstyling? LOL! Matter of opinion I suppose :)
In any event, both the fuel and the hairstyles are easily explained by the "things you have to suspend your disbelief about" common in most movies. How many times have you seen a guy fire dozens of rounds without reloading? How many times have you seen a girl wake up in bed, and she looks perfect...perfect makeup, perfect hair, no crust in her eyes?



I will have to disagree with the assumption land takes place after Day and I would be glad to cite exact quotes to help prove out my point if you like.
The main quote people usually use to rebut my idea is the guy in the garage telling Riley that it has been "three years since any car drove out of here." Without starting a rehash of a very long thread, suffice it to say that it is not a far stretch to assume that no car had driven out of that piece of shit "garage" for some time before the outbreak. Add that time to the amount of time since the outbreak = three years. Even if it was 3 years, that gives no indication one way or the other as to when the events in Day take place. For the sake of argument, if Land is set 3 years into the outbreak, then Day is set after that.

Seeing as GAR did not take a lot of care with these types of elements, I can only look at the movies themselves for evidence of how far into the outbreak they are set. The tone of Day is dark and bleak. No living being can be found for 100 miles in each direction. In Land, there are people all over the place, eating hot dogs in the street, and going to live "zombie fights" in clubs.

As I stated earlier, it does not make much sense that downtown Pitt "fell" and was "re-taken". Certainly there would be better areas to set up as a community than a zombie infested downtown area. It is much more logical that it was held. That points to it being not that long after the outbreak. As do the facts that they are still using a money-based system to make their "economy" work. Cholo's obsession with obtaining money to LEAVE the area shows his brain is still thinking money is important, which it wouldnt be in a post zombie apocalypse. Even if there were an outpost in Cleavland (which doesnt seem likely), who is to say they are still using currency for anything? If this was far into the outbreak, it would appear common sense to stock up on something of tangible value, such as guns and ammo, to use as a means of exchange, rather than money.

In Day, no one seems particularly surprised, upset, etc. that Major Cooper has died. It appears they are all immune to past emotions. Discipline has broken down to where soldiers are growing marijuana right out in the open. How likely is that if you still had an expectation of things returning to normal? Or of a rescue team coming any minute? How long would it have taken to round up all those zeds without 'killing' them? And fitting them with collars? When they first go to the corral, Sarah says "I've done it before". If this was a short time into the outbreak, you think the scientist chick would have been involved with wrangling zombies out of the pen, or sitting comfortably in her lab? Taking zombies from the pen is such old hat that Rickles is sloppy about writing it down.

When Nicotero says "We used to talk to Washington all the time", think about that statement. If they had only been there 3 months, would it make sense to say it that way? That implies that they have been there a LONG time. Rhodes was so power hungry, bordering on insane, is this the type of soldier they would sent on such an important mission, which was "find a solution to save mankind?" Certainly someone can be competent and an asshole at the same time, but does it seem likely that he exhibited this type of behavior just a few months ago pre-outbreak and was sent on a mission to fascilitate a civilian scientific team? He was a Captain..would someone so out of control rise to that rank acting as he did? If not, is it believable that a trained soldier and officer would lose control so quickly? Or would it take a long time to descend into this kind of madness?

[sandrock74]

Just my own opinion here, just based on my own ideas as a viewer, nothing else. I always pictured Day as happening about a year/year and a half into the events of the timeline. That seems like enough time for them to feel isolated and cut off from the rest of the world (if it still exists), while still in the realm of possibility for still having fuel, booze, ammo and hair gel at their disposal.

Remember how Tom Hanks looked in the movie Castaway? He was on the island for 4 or 5 years and he looked like a stereotypical hermit and/or a member of ZZ Top. That's how I would picture everyone in Day looking if it were 5 years into everything. Appearance wise, everyone would have let themselves go a long time ago.

I can see Land happening a good 3 to 5 years into events of the timeline. I also agree with Philly in that The Green was HELD, not TAKEN. Everyone there was following the remnants of the old social system, but the people on the streets still looked shellshocked and weary. After a decade or so, I think that would have passed as everyone would be forced to adjust accordingly.

Again, these are just my opinions from my observations from the films. Feel free to agree or disagree. :)

[EvilNed]

Have to agree with the majority. The discipline in Day may have broken down somewhat. But nowhere near the level of breakdown they would have suffered after three years! That's just nuts. :p After three years, they'd have at least gotten to the surface, tried retaking some place and realized that "We can't stay down here forever". I don't believe there's an army group (that small, mind you) in the world that WOULDN'T have tried to move on after two years or so of that stuff. And Land clearly takes place three years after the outbreak, infact it's stated twice in the film.

[krakenslayer]

Still haven't explained how you think they didn't burn through their fuel in 3 years.

It's likely that they only use the helicopter periodically to keep track of what's happening in the outside world. It seemed in Day like there had been previous excursions that were equally unsuccessful in finding survivors, and they seem quite resigned to that, which to me suggests they've been there a long time.



The power would have been off for months/years by the time the movie started, if they'd been there that long. Also, the limited alcohol these people brought with them wouldn't last 3 years.

They're supposed to be inside a nuclear bunker - originally designed to house military and VIP personnel in the event of a nuclear exchange. There would be vast quantities of food and supplies stored down there in anticipation of large numbers of nuclear refugees.



And then we have the zombies "more and more every day". For there to be years' worth, there'd have to be a million-ghoul ocean pushing on that chainlink. That fence would have come down long before then.

...and so forth. Day didn't take place very far into the outbreak.

Here's what I think happened - Logan, Fisher, Sarah and the rest of the science team were were put together as part of the US military's attempt to come up with a scientific answer to the zombie problem. Judging by their references to time spent in Washington ("I saw one of those things trying to drive down Independence Avenue") they probably worked - protected by the military - at a science lab or university campus in D.C. at the beginning of the outbreak, they may have been there for several months, perhaps for as long as a year. After the last defended parts of D.C. fell to the hordes, the remains of the US government, worried that their best scientific team (and last remaining hope) would fall prey to the zombies, had them evacuated to the old nuclear bunker in Florida with a skeleton crew of soldiers to defend them and pressure them into coming up with results.

So, in short, I don't think they were even in the bunker until well into the outbreak.

[sandrock74]

Here's what I think happened - Logan, Fisher, Sarah and the rest of the science team were were put together as part of the US military's attempt to come up with a scientific answer to the zombie problem. Judging by their references to time spent in Washington ("I saw one of those things trying to drive down Independence Avenue") they probably worked - protected by the military - at a science lab or university campus in D.C. at the beginning of the outbreak, they may have been there for several months, perhaps for as long as a year. After the last defended parts of D.C. fell to the hordes, the remains of the US government, worried that their best scientific team (and last remaining hope) would fall prey to the zombies, had them evacuated to the old nuclear bunker in Florida with a skeleton crew of soldiers to defend them and pressure them into coming up with results.


Sorry kraken, but I can't agree with that. Who would take their "last, best hope", and dump them in a bunker in another state, effectively well behind enemy lines and with limited communications ability? Strategically, thats a horrible move. Taking your "best scientific team (and last remaining hope)" WITH you is the safest move.

I don't think Logan, Sarah and the rest were considered anywhere near top tier in the governments eyes. I think they were one of several teams that were dropped in areas that were already stocked with supplies and deemed reasonably safe. Thats all. If they were the best, they would have been holed up in NORAD or something, not out in the sticks.

[krakenslayer]

Sorry kraken, but I can't agree with that. Who would take their "last, best hope", and dump them in a bunker in another state, effectively well behind enemy lines and with limited communications ability? Strategically, thats a horrible move. Taking your "best scientific team (and last remaining hope)" WITH you is the safest move.

I don't think Logan, Sarah and the rest were considered anywhere near top tier in the governments eyes. I think they were one of several teams that were dropped in areas that were already stocked with supplies and deemed reasonably safe. Thats all. If they were the best, they would have been holed up in NORAD or something, not out in the sticks.

Whatever, maybe they weren't important, maybe there were numerous scientific installations around the country ("there must be other groups like us"). My central point remains the same though - in my opinion, they were not sent to that bunker until well into the outbreak.

[Thorn]

Well, I sort of agree, sort of disagree. No, I don't think Day took place after Land, but I do think it took place about three years after the initial outbreak, with Land happening a long time after that. Rhodes does look impeccable, but I'd say that's due to his control-freak, disciplinarian nature.

That or the fact it was a movie and you need to suspend your disbelief. Not directed at you but anyone who can accept the fact that a world is being ravaged by the living dead but not the fact that one of the actors had hair jel really needs to stop and consider things a little more closely.


Doesn't matter what the Day script says, since that movie never saw the light of day. What appeared on the screen is a completely different movie. And Land was written based on what happened in Day of the Dead, not on what happened in a script that was never shot.

While I agree with this in part it certainly does show his intention for the film around the time he was writing it, he was preparing a film Called Day of the Dead to be released, he wrote it and the setting of that film was 5 years after Night. MANY of the details from that script found their way into the final version of Day. I do not find it so hard to imagine that the number of years post outbreak would be retained along with some of of the other details such as character names. In fact seems just as easy to assume it to be true as not.


Still haven't explained how you think they didn't burn through their fuel in 3 years. The power would have been off for months/years by the time the movie started, if they'd been there that long. Also, the limited alcohol these people brought with them wouldn't last 3 years. And where did Rhodes keep getting his hair gel from? Don't try to tell me the military keeps a 3-year supply of it at all research installations. And then we have the zombies "more and more every day". For there to be years' worth, there'd have to be a million-ghoul ocean pushing on that chainlink. That fence would have come down long before then.

Well, have you seen the place? Based on script alone it was massive it was prepared with a large amount of EVERYTHING. This was a government effort to complete a task. The support was provided to make that happen they had a facility costing millions/billions of dollars I do not think that having fuel to last them a good long while being included as part of that sweet set up is so far beyond the realm of belief. beyond that foraging and scrounging could be happening off camera. Who is to say?

It was also a remote facility, so for "more and more every day" to show up it might be one or two. It might also be a human being exaggerating the facts which is standard for most people. They also might clean them out, or they might lose interest and wander off. In fact they might not need come to the surface until the on camera time starts thus showing

And again... hair jel that's what you are basing this on? Actors tend to have make up artists, hair dressers and people doing their wardrobe. You don't know if the actor had other commitments that made it hard/impossible for him to accept the growth of a beard and this could have been negotiated into his contract. Or George might have been separating him from the troops showing his controlling nature.


...and so forth. Day didn't take place very far into the outbreak.

This is a matter of opinion, and one you are welcome to. It certainly isn't fact.


In any event, both the fuel and the hairstyles are easily explained by the "things you have to suspend your disbelief about" common in most movies. How many times have you seen a guy fire dozens of rounds without reloading? How many times have you seen a girl wake up in bed, and she looks perfect...perfect makeup, perfect hair, no crust in her eyes?

This is exactly what I was trying to say. It is Hollywood, boobs are big, hair is perfect, clothing wrinkle free, and men can take off their helmets on mars... and reach mars even! If they want it to be, it is. It does not need to make sense.



The main quote people usually use to rebut my idea is the guy in the garage telling Riley that it has been "three years since any car drove out of here." Without starting a rehash of a very long thread, suffice it to say that it is not a far stretch to assume that no car had driven out of that piece of shit "garage" for some time before the outbreak. Add that time to the amount of time since the outbreak = three years. Even if it was 3 years, that gives no indication one way or the other as to when the events in Day take place.

While an interesting argument for people to make, it doesn't really mean much to me. In fact Kauffman could have just basically restricted the use of cars, cars might have been seized for parts, gasoline may have been too costly or precious for there to be many of them worked on in the slum areas of Kauffman's city. You can explain this a number of ways. I do not think this in any way helps establish a time line other than to say Land clearly takes place at LEAST 3 years post outbreak. (or the events in Night)


Seeing as GAR did not take a lot of care with these types of elements, I can only look at the movies themselves for evidence of how far into the outbreak they are set. The tone of Day is dark and bleak. No living being can be found for 100 miles in each direction. In Land, there are people all over the place, eating hot dogs in the street, and going to live "zombie fights" in clubs.

We are talking about two isolated areas, and what is known in each of them. In the green you see a club and a fight pit and prostitution by design and by the nature of where the setting for the film is. There is none of that in Day because in that film they are in a military instillation. More over if anything I think you need to look at the situation, in Day there is a semblance of military control, and government organization still hanging on.

IN LAND there is no military, there is no government lab or effort to control the situation or reverse it. What you see is people with weapons fully under Kauffman's control. His own personal army. Not a branch of the military holding onto ranks, and assignments. They have long since thrown those away.



In Day, no one seems particularly surprised, upset, etc. that Major Cooper has died. It appears they are all immune to past emotions. Discipline has broken down to where soldiers are growing marijuana right out in the open. How likely is that if you still had an expectation of things returning to normal?

I think growing immune to death occurs pretty fast, sadly faster than you might think. My wife ex wife works in the emergency room. People die there every night. EVERY night. She used to get sad, feel for them. Feel badly for the families. If you do not turn that off you won't survive. You have to allow yourself to feel enough to be empathetic but not so much it eats you alive. Death is part of life, and when it is part of your job you need to keep yourself together by keeping some distance from the emotions so you are ready to jump in and help.

As for the drugs, there was much worse than that going on in Vietnam right in front of the officers who were there. That is fairly well documented I am sure you will agree, and those boys all knew they would be going back to a "normal" society.

[Trin]

We know that the city in Land was held, not retaken. Slack confirms this.
Riley - "How long since you been out here?"
Slack - "Never been out. Lived in the city since... it was a regular city."

Day simply could not have been years into it. The state of their research is evidence of that. They were still doing basic research. Defining the problem. That could not possibly have taken years.

The state of their supplies suggests the same. We know they aren't scavenging for supplies. They're running low on liquor. I don't believe for a second that a hastily cobbled together military research facility that cannot do better than a WWII radio has tons of food, ammo, medicine, and gasoline. That just doesn't make sense.

The state of the coastline suggests a shorter period too. There are still rows of boats in the marinas. After years of Florida weather? Not!!

And the mental state. In Day they were still trying to solve the problem. They still believed that they could find a cure or a solution. They still believed someone would come looking for them. It was a denial stage. They were cracking from the strain that they were too late, they were low on supplies, and they were running out of time. That's not the kind of mental state that exists after living with things for an extended period.

I put Day at 8-10 months into it.

Land quite clearly must've been long after the zombies took over. The zombies don't much come around the Green anymore. They gave up. The city had reached a state of self-sufficiency. They had dependable power (enough so to make electric fences an option). They had the means to feed and support the population. They had developed routines, work/life balance, etc. Oh, and they had Dead Reckoning, which in a post-zombie world was quite a feat of engineering.

The mental state in Land suggests the people have accepted the world around them. They're desensitized to the zombies to the point they can take photos with them as a sideshow attraction. They'd long since given up on the world going to back to how it was. They were resigned to the new one. This is NOT the kind of mental state that people arrive at quickly. And it is further - much further - down the path of dealing with a crisis than what we saw in Day.

Land is a minimum of 3 years into it. Probably longer.

If you really look at the mental state in Day you see that the 3 survivors are moving from their state of denial to a new state of acceptance. They decided to move on and try to carve out existence in the world such as it is. They were moving toward the eventual mental state of what we saw in Land.

[SRP76]

He was on the island for 4 or 5 years and he looked like a stereotypical hermit and/or a member of ZZ Top.

:lol:
'Cause every girl's crazy 'bout a Fed-Ex man.

[Philly_SWAT]

While an interesting argument for people to make, it doesn't really mean much to me. In fact Kauffman could have just basically restricted the use of cars, cars might have been seized for parts, gasoline may have been too costly or precious for there to be many of them worked on in the slum areas of Kauffman's city. You can explain this a number of ways. I do not think this in any way helps establish a time line other than to say Land clearly takes place at LEAST 3 years post outbreak. (or the events in Night)
I guess we agree that the "3 years" line doesnt mean much. However, I disagree with your assessment that it CLEARLY indicates that Land takes place at least 3 years post outbreak. While it is certainly possible and logical, it is just as possible logical, that the beat-up shitty area they were calling a "garage" had went some time PRE outbreak without cars going in and out. If it is indeed not long after the outbreak, as I am suggesting, and people are fooling themselves into thinking things are normal, then a guy would knew no cars had left, say for 1 1/2 years prior to the outbreak, and they were 1 1/2 years into the outbreak, then it makes sense he would say "its been 3 years since...". I do not suggest that it CLEARLY indicates what I am saying is fact, just that it is just as possible and logical as the points you make.




We are talking about two isolated areas, and what is known in each of them. In the green you see a club and a fight pit and prostitution by design and by the nature of where the setting for the film is. There is none of that in Day because in that film they are in a military instillation. More over if anything I think you need to look at the situation, in Day there is a semblance of military control, and government organization still hanging on.
I say that the only semblance of military control is among the soldiers choosing to still follow a chain of command that existed pre-outbreak. As you can see, there was no love lost for Major Cooper being dead. The civilians had no choice but to recognize their authority (guns and numbers tend to make that true). Government organization does not seem to be hanging on to me. They have had no contact at all with superiors for quite some time, and they are basically on the verge on anarchy within the complex. A Capt. telling a subordinate to shoot an unarmed civilian for refusing to sit hardly seems as any semblance of normality is going on.



IN LAND there is no military, there is no government lab or effort to control the situation or reverse it. What you see is people with weapons fully under Kauffman's control. His own personal army. Not a branch of the military holding onto ranks, and assignments. They have long since thrown those away.
While this is true, it has little bearing on your point, if anything I say it supports mine. We both agree that there would be small pockets of survivors somewhere in the world. I say that is what we see in Day. As you yourself mentioned, it was a prime location to hold up. Underground, fenced in perimeter up top with helicopter access, and a huge area where all kinds of stuff is stored. It would be easy to hold out there for a long period of time, especially for only a dozen or so people. And it is just as likely as not they would continue to recognize rank, etc. Remember, they can not find another living soul for 100 miles in each direction. They are not foraging for supplies. There only purpose is to find other survivors, which they fail to do. There are people all over the place in Land. It doesnt make sense to me that there would be LESS people about closer to the time of outbreak, and MORE people around further away from the time of outbreak. Of course they were in different geographical locations, but I dont see why that would mean EVERYONE was dead in Florida, but not so in Penn. Also, Cholo says he heard there was an outpost in Cleavland. Heard from whom? One of he homeless living on the streets? How would anyone know anything about the outside world with no communication? The only answer I can see is that they do actually still have communication capabilities (supporting the idea that is takes place before Day) or that they have personally met others outside of the Green, meaning there are even more survivors nearby then we see on screen (which also supports my position).





I think growing immune to death occurs pretty fast, sadly faster than you might think. My wife ex wife works in the emergency room. People die there every night. EVERY night. She used to get sad, feel for them. Feel badly for the families. If you do not turn that off you won't survive. You have to allow yourself to feel enough to be empathetic but not so much it eats you alive. Death is part of life, and when it is part of your job you need to keep yourself together by keeping some distance from the emotions so you are ready to jump in and help.
I agree with and understand this completely. I would assume though, that it took quite sometime for your ex to be able to turn off the emotions.



As for the drugs, there was much worse than that going on in Vietnam right in front of the officers who were there. That is fairly well documented I am sure you will agree, and those boys all knew they would be going back to a "normal" society.
Yes, they knew (or at least hoped) that they would be returning to normal society. And sure the officers also used drugs. However, I am sure they did not grow pot right at the point where their superiors would come during a visit. In Day, any rescue party/reinforcements/superior officers etc would obviously land right where the pot was being grown. They made no effort whatsoever to hide it, grow it near the fence, grow something else in front of it to hide it, etc. This seems unlikely if they thought at any time someone may come there. This to me points to a LONG time of being there, not a short time.

[krakenslayer]

While I agree with this in part it certainly does show his intention for the film around the time he was writing it, he was preparing a film Called Day of the Dead to be released, he wrote it and the setting of that film was 5 years after Night. MANY of the details from that script found their way into the final version of Day. I do not find it so hard to imagine that the number of years post outbreak would be retained along with some of of the other details such as character names. In fact seems just as easy to assume it to be true as not.


Good point Thorn. Further to this, I'd just like to point out that pretty much everything that you other guys are calling "evidence" of Day being set within a year of the outbreak - boats in their moorings, remaining supplies etc. etc. - is also apparent in the original Day script, which is most explicitly set five years after the outbreak. If, in Romero's universe, all these things can theoretically be in place five years in, they can also be in place 2-3 years in.

[Trin]

I guess we agree that the "3 years" line doesnt mean much. However, I disagree with your assessment that it CLEARLY indicates that Land takes place at least 3 years post outbreak. While it is certainly possible and logical, it is just as possible logical, that the beat-up shitty area they were calling a "garage" had went some time PRE outbreak without cars going in and out. If it is indeed not long after the outbreak, as I am suggesting, and people are fooling themselves into thinking things are normal, then a guy would knew no cars had left, say for 1 1/2 years prior to the outbreak, and they were 1 1/2 years into the outbreak, then it makes sense he would say "its been 3 years since...". I do not suggest that it CLEARLY indicates what I am saying is fact, just that it is just as possible and logical as the points you make.
I agree that both are possible, but not "just as possible" as one another. The statement that the garage was idle for years prior to the zombie outbreak, and that there were people around who were famililar enough with a derelict garage to know it, is full of conjecture and speculation. I find it incredibly unlikely that a serviceable garage would be sitting idle during the establishment of the fortified city. And then to go back into service for Riley?

The opposing viewpoint, that the garage had fallen into disuse after the zombie outbreak (perhaps even months or years after), is far more probable.


As you can see, there was no love lost for Major Cooper being dead.And this statement counters any argument that Major Cooper's death in Day was met with a lack of sentiment commensurate with people who'd been post-zombie outbreak a long time.



There are people all over the place in Land. We don't know that. It's only speculation in the movie and Riley even counters the assertion that Cleveland still exists. Further, we don't know that there AREN'T people around in Day just because they didn't find them while flying rapidly overhead in a chopper.


Also, Cholo says he heard there was an outpost in Cleavland. Heard from whom? One of he homeless living on the streets? How would anyone know anything about the outside world with no communication? The only answer I can see is that they do actually still have communication capabilities (supporting the idea that is takes place before Day)I got the impression that Riley and Cholo had both heard of an outpost in Cleveland, probably via radio since Riley specifically mentioned "haven't heard from them" when he mentions it. We have no evidence they still exist or whether it's been 3 days or 3 years since they were heard from.


The only answer I can see is that they do actually still have communication capabilities (supporting the idea that is takes place before Day)
We just can't use that as evidence of anything. How can we assume that Land having a better radio than Day means Land comes before? The people in Land might have had NO radio for years then found one in a Radio Shack while driving Dead Reckoning around one day. It stands to reason that since they were actively scavenging the surrounding areas that they'd have access to tons better equipment. In Day they had a pristine shiny helicopter. Does the lack of a helicopter in Land imply that Land is later? No. All it implies is that they didn't have one. Give the folks in Day a bright shiny modern radio and they might've still been in contact with Washington.

No amount of working in an ER makes a couple of flaky girls desensitized to death enough to take photos with reanimated dead bodies. That requires some serious time spent living in the new zombie world.

[Philly_SWAT]

I agree that both are possible, but not "just as possible" as one another. The statement that the garage was idle for years prior to the zombie outbreak, and that there were people around who were famililar enough with a derelict garage to know it, is full of conjecture and speculation. I find it incredibly unlikely that a serviceable garage would be sitting idle during the establishment of the fortified city. And then to go back into service for Riley?

The opposing viewpoint, that the garage had fallen into disuse after the zombie outbreak (perhaps even months or years after), is far more probable.
Did it look like a "serviceable garage" to you, or a place that had been sitting idle for some time? No way to know whether that idleness started pre or post outbreak. Why would it be crazy to think that someone there would know of what life was like there prior to the outbreak? Do you think those people were locals, or traveled in from California? As for probability, there is no way to say, which is why I didnt comment on probability one way or the other. They are both equally possible. It was improbably that the Giants would have beat the undefeated Patriots 2 years ago, but that is why they play the game.


And this statement counters any argument that Major Cooper's death in Day was met with a lack of sentiment commensurate with people who'd been post-zombie outbreak a long time.
Huh?



We don't know that. It's only speculation in the movie and Riley even counters the assertion that Cleveland still exists. Further, we don't know that there AREN'T people around in Day just because they didn't find them while flying rapidly overhead in a chopper.
How about when we see them land and call out with a megaphone? Again, there ONLY PURPOSE for flying around was looking for survivors. Sure, exactly how they did that is open for speculation, but common sense dictates they wouldnt fly full speed as high as possible, as that would make the whole concept moot.



We just can't use that as evidence of anything. How can we assume that Land having a better radio than Day means Land comes before? The people in Land might have had NO radio for years then found one in a Radio Shack while driving Dead Reckoning around one day. It stands to reason that since they were actively scavenging the surrounding areas that they'd have access to tons better equipment. In Day they had a pristine shiny helicopter. Does the lack of a helicopter in Land imply that Land is later? No. All it implies is that they didn't have one. Give the folks in Day a bright shiny modern radio and they might've still been in contact with Washington.
I never made the argument that they had a better radio in Land, only that it appeared that they had communications, regardless of newness/oldness of the radio.

[MoonSylver]

Sorry kraken, but I can't agree with that. Who would take their "last, best hope", and dump them in a bunker in another state, effectively well behind enemy lines and with limited communications ability? Strategically, thats a horrible move. Taking your "best scientific team (and last remaining hope)" WITH you is the safest move.

I don't think Logan, Sarah and the rest were considered anywhere near top tier in the governments eyes. I think they were one of several teams that were dropped in areas that were already stocked with supplies and deemed reasonably safe. Thats all. If they were the best, they would have been holed up in NORAD or something, not out in the sticks.

Yeah, I agree w/ everything ELSE Kracken said, but I'd agree on this part. Logan, Sarah & co w/ not the A-Team IMO. Sarah even confirms that there are other shelters out there, better equipped than theirs.

I'd say the govt. was probably tossing every egghead they could lay their hands on that might have half an idea what the hell was going on into whatever hole they could find.


Whatever, maybe they weren't important, maybe there were numerous scientific installations around the country ("there must be other groups like us"). My central point remains the same though - in my opinion, they were not sent to that bunker until well into the outbreak.

Yeah...I'd never given it a whole lot of thought TBH. I'd thought about how LONG they'd been down there, how far along we are in the timeline, etc, but not WHEN they went down. I can see it making sense that they didn't hustle them down there right away, but rather when the defenses were breached, so to speak.

[EvilNed]

In Day, the zombies hadn't given up the idea of getting past the fence. In Land, they had. I guess that's the clearest answer we're going to get...

Maybe we can't exactly pinpoint the time of each. But what we do know is that the zombies were more evolved in Land.

[FoodFight]

Or perhaps that Pennsylvania zombies are naturally more advanced than Florida zombies.

[SRP76]

There only purpose is to find other survivors, which they fail to do. There are people all over the place in Land. It doesnt make sense to me that there would be LESS people about closer to the time of outbreak, and MORE people around further away from the time of outbreak.


Whoa, back the meatwagon up.

There are no people "all over the place" in Land. There are more people holed up in their one "fortress" in Land than there are in Day. That's all.

[Philly_SWAT]

In Day, the zombies hadn't given up the idea of getting past the fence. In Land, they had. I guess that's the clearest answer we're going to get...
Clear as mud. It offers no proof one way or the other. The difference is, in Day, the fence is not electrified, in Land it is. That is why the zeds dont come to it much anymore in the Land location. In the Day location, there is no harm to them, therefore no reason to leave. As we see in the corral scene, they notice the zeds in there are hesitant to come forward, as they are learning it is not a safe idea. Same behavior in both films.


Maybe we can't exactly pinpoint the time of each. But what we do know is that the zombies were more evolved in Land.
I say we dont know that at all. A species evolving would take thousands of years. I dont think they have evolved at all since the outbreak. Big Daddy may seem ...'smarter" than your average zed, but Einstein was smarter than the average human. There are always exceptional individuals.

Also, the story told in Land is the first one that focuses on a group/community of zeds. In the other stories, no zeds are focused on at all except for Bub, and he also appears to be smarter than the average zed as well. He is held chained in tight quarters, with no way to 'show the audience' what he may be capable of. When he finally gets free, he actually takes a gun, chases down the killer of Logan and shoots him. Same behavior in both films.


Or perhaps that Pennsylvania zombies are naturally more advanced than Florida zombies.
This is a possibility also, although as I said above, we dont even have to assume that as we are given no indication as to the behavior of zeds in Florida other than Bub, who at the least seems the equal to Big Daddy. For all we know, Bub is the dumbest of the Florida zombies, we have nothing to compare him to.

[EvilNed]

Clear as mud. It offers no proof one way or the other. The difference is, in Day, the fence is not electrified, in Land it is. That is why the zeds dont come to it much anymore in the Land location. In the Day location, there is no harm to them, therefore no reason to leave. As we see in the corral scene, they notice the zeds in there are hesitant to come forward, as they are learning it is not a safe idea. Same behavior in both films.

I say we dont know that at all. A species evolving would take thousands of years. I dont think they have evolved at all since the outbreak. Big Daddy may seem ...'smarter" than your average zed, but Einstein was smarter than the average human. There are always exceptional individuals.

Also, the story told in Land is the first one that focuses on a group/community of zeds. In the other stories, no zeds are focused on at all except for Bub, and he also appears to be smarter than the average zed as well. He is held chained in tight quarters, with no way to 'show the audience' what he may be capable of. When he finally gets free, he actually takes a gun, chases down the killer of Logan and shoots him. Same behavior in both films.

Just sounds like you're grasping for straws here, but I don't really care. Land is clearly meant to be placed after Day timeline-wise, but since I don't think they all take place in the same timeline anyway, I don't really care. But Day is obviously (discipline-wise) no more than a year into the outbreak. How far is Land in? Well, that is the question... And two characters state three years.

[Thorn]

In Day, the zombies hadn't given up the idea of getting past the fence. In Land, they had. I guess that's the clearest answer we're going to get...

Maybe we can't exactly pinpoint the time of each. But what we do know is that the zombies were more evolved in Land.


Whoa, back the meatwagon up.

There are no people "all over the place" in Land. There are more people holed up in their one "fortress" in Land than there are in Day. That's all.

I guess it is a matter we will all have to agree to disagree on until there is an official answer. I saw some great points made on both sides and several made me consider some of my points again in one case even change one of them.

At the end of the day though I still feel as I did before but respect everyone's right to form their own opinion.

[Philly_SWAT]

Just sounds like you're grasping for straws here, but I don't really care. Land is clearly meant to be placed after Day timeline-wise, but since I don't think they all take place in the same timeline anyway, I don't really care. But Day is obviously (discipline-wise) no more than a year into the outbreak. How far is Land in? Well, that is the question... And two characters state three years.

I like how you totally ignore my points and just say I am "grasping for straws". You mention how the zeds quit attacking the fence in Land as evidence that they are more advanced there. I mention that the fence is electrified, unlike the one in Day, refuting the idea that it means anything. That hardly seems like grasping at straws. It is simple facts. Odd that you would even chime in as a devotee of the "they dont take place in the same timeline" concept.

[Eyebiter]

Do you think they spent over 600 million dollars just to build on an underground visitors center for the US Capital building?

The center looks pretty but it had another purpose. The sub-level fallout shelters developed during the cold war were badly in need of renovation. And they needed a massive public building project as cover to close off areas, bring in the men, materials, and earth moving equipment to complete the upgrade. Just add on time and cost overruns to conceal the true nature of the project.

[Thorn]

A great point, that puppy came in so far over budget and off time table for completion there was/is CLEARLY more going on there.