The Washington Bunkers - Part II

[Philly_SWAT]

It is getting too difficult to keep things straight in the other thread. It is hard to see where old posts are in relation to new posts that are commenting on them, so I start anew.


Whoa, back the meatwagon up.

There are no people "all over the place" in Land. There are more people holed up in their one "fortress" in Land than there are in Day. That's all.

To clarify what I mean by that...

In Day, we only see 12 people. People that were brought to an underground facility, by chopper, with a fenced in perimeter topside. Easy to see how they got there, and easy to see how they could survive there without foraging for goods (as the place is huge and well stocked).

In Land, we see hundreds, if not over a thousand, but for sure hundreds, of people. It is not a self contained facility. They are in a large downtown area of a major city. So how did those people get there, and how did they survive without goods? Yes, the Dead Reckoning was bringing in goods from the outside, but it isnt like that vehicle would have been built on Day one. It isnt like Riley and Co. would be trained and out foraging right away.

There would be two possible explanation as to how they secured the Golden Triangle. They either 'held' the area, no doubt a difficult task, soon after the outbreak, or they 'retook' the area, after the downtown area was overrun, no doubt an even more difficult task. Lets examine both ideas.

They held it - Raising the bridges right away would have been simple enough. Even without further barricading, that would keep new zeds from entering the area via bridges. That leaves only one side of the triangle that needs to be secured. It seems logical that in Pitt, they were doing the same as Philly in the beginning..clearing out big buildings of the dead. Most of the buidlings downtown there are office buildings, not living quarters, but there is some high end living areas there. I did not see any low-end living areas downtown. With the zed population low in that area, and 2 of three sides blocked off with little effort, a few dozen trained and armed men could block off the remaining side. As time goes by, you could advance on that side, making a larger secure area. Downtown would have been a relatively safe area in that region if this had been done right away. It would explain 'commoners' coming to the area. Perhaps some were even let inside the perimeter once it was established. 'Elites' would already be there, as they occupy the living spaces downtown, as well as the high end hotels. Even if the infrastructure was damaged, water wouldnt be a problem, what with 3 rivers converging right there. Early foraging efforts could have concentrated on food only. All this would explain how those people got there, are how they could survive.

They retook it - The very nature of the term indicates that the downtown area fell, was overrun, and was retaken. By definition, this puts it much further away from the start of the outbreak than if they had held the area to begin with. Raising the bridges would be easy enough, but there would already be a large zed population in the triangle. And it would be more difficult to barricade the 3rd side with more zombies about. Every building would have to be searched room by room, to make sure there were no zombies were in there. This is basically the same thing they did in Dawn, clearing out the zeds once the perimeter was secured. Assuming that this is in fact a do-able plan, where did all the non-military types comes from? By this time, average every day non-military/police types would either be dead or holed up somewhere. How would they know to go downtown because it was secure now? Why would they want to? If they were still alive, then it stands to reason wherever they were was secure as well. All those people living in the streets, waiting for a handout of food scraps, kids sick with no medicine, where were they all before the triangle for retaken, and how did they come to be inside the perimeter once it was? Same with the pansy elites living the good life in the tower...where were they before the triangle was taken? And how did they come to be inside the perimeter, and why would they have special status compared to everyone else? Speculation could be varied on these questions, but it seems unlikely that they would know to come to the triangle, and that they would even want to come to the triangle. Lets say you were holed up in a more country area, and somehow got word that people had secured downtown. Would you want to leave the country area, and have to travel thru zombie-filled areas, to get a place that you really have no idea how safe it is there, how many supplies are there, etc?

It really seems apparent to me that the Triangle had to have been held, not retaken. That explains how the elites keep their status. It explains how they are able to still delude themselves into thinking that life is 'normal', and go shopping for expensive dresses and suits while most of the population of the planet is in hiding, fearful, or dead. It explains where all the people came from and how they got there. How long are you going to be able to feed/clothe/provide medicine for hundreds, if not thousands, of people by simply foraging surrounding areas? Even once you start moving further away from your base to forage, how much non-perishable food are you going to find? Where were they getting hot dogs from? None of the rich people were producing anything, no goods, no services. The only people actually supplying tangeble goods into the Triangle were Riley/Cholo and company. An economy such as this will certainly break down after a while. The same thing is happening in the US right now irl. We dont produce much anymore.

This all says to me that the events in Land were close to the start of the outbreak. Even three years in is a stretch to me, but if people like the 3 years timeframe, so be it. Again, the events in Day seem to be happening way past this point in time. Again, in Day, they can not find a living soul within 100 miles in each direction, while actively searching visually, by radio, and by landing and yelling through a bullhorn. If you believe that downtown Pitt was retaken, there is no way all those civilians were in the downtown before it was retaken, no way they joined in the fighting effort to accept secondary status once the area was secure, no way they were just milling around out in the open near downtown to notice what was going on there, and then being welcomed in after not helping in the fighting. So again, where did they come from in this case? They only explanation is that somehow people in the now secure downtown contacted them by some method, and told them to come. Which shows that there were people 'all over the place' as I put it. Not as a literal interpretation of the phrase, but as common usage to denote that many people were still alive and looking for others. There are no such people in Day. Which says to me that the events shown in Day are further into the outbreak than the events shown in Land.

[Thorn]

As always Philly I think you raise many interesting points, and explain them in great detail. I respect your opinions I just do not agree with them. I think for every valid point made there is a counter point to be had. While some things you have brought to bear in the other thread made me think long and hard on my own ideas, same for things others have said I just do not agree.

Even if you just look at the trend of the films Romero never skipped around, and when he did he mentioned it. Of Diary "I thought we would go back and examine events that occurred in the beginning" he didn't say in Land "I thought we would back track and show events that took place halfway through the quadrilogy". Instead he just made his 4th zombie film tied to the same series of films.

As for how they got food early on. Look, when you are hungry you eat. if you do not have food you go out and get it, foraging and looting is prevalent in all zombie fiction. I will be honest with you as a father, if my daughter was hungry I WOULD find a way to feed her. foraging wouldn't have a time table I would do it as needed and even before hand in perception for it. At no point would I let her go hungry if it was within my power to change that.

In Day, no they can not find anyone other than themselves. That does not mean there are not other people. They just can't find them. Even the nature of the houses down there and the topography make it hard to stand up to the dead. Lots of glass to let in that natural sunlight, lots of sliding glass doors.

The green had a person with a plan, he had power, and he had people willing to follow orders. That is not something you would find universally available. Like I said in the other thread and you can debate this freely, there WAS a military presence in Day. In Land there was no national guard, there was no army. There was just Kauffman and what he wanted. He wasn't trying to reach Washington at all, he was in his white tower weathering the siege as king, president, and ruler of his domain.

There were more people because it was a city that was fortified, in a large metro section. NATURALLY that means more people around. Transversely you have a remote and supposedly secret military outpost out i nthe middle of nowhere. The purpose of which is very different than the Green.

Also I would like to add that people had mentioned the fact that there were not thousands of dead around the fence I explained this due to remote location. There are other factors we have not considered as well. natural land barriers (water, swamps and so on), predators (gators), more rapid source of decay and thus insects that attack dead flesh, and to this the fact that they were rounding up the dead and bringing them int othe holding pen you can pretty clearly paint a picture as to why the fence was not completely surrounded.

[Philly_SWAT]

As always Philly I think you raise many interesting points, and explain them in great detail. I respect your opinions I just do not agree with them. I think for every valid point made there is a counter point to be had. While some things you have brought to bear in the other thread made me think long and hard on my own ideas, same for things others have said I just do not agree.
I greatly appreciate the fact that although you do not agree with me, you can still acknowledge that my supporting arguments have merit. Although it is hard to make these kinds of judgments based on message board posts, if I were ever faced with a zombie outbreak, I would be honored to be teamed up with you to fight the threat.


Even if you just look at the trend of the films Romero never skipped around, and when he did he mentioned it. Of Diary "I thought we would go back and examine events that occurred in the beginning" he didn't say in Land "I thought we would back track and show events that took place halfway through the quadrilogy". Instead he just made his 4th zombie film tied to the same series of films.
It is a fact that he never said he was going back before Day to make Land. Although I dont think that means much. I can only use the films themselves to make determinations. If a filmmaker set out to make the best comedy ever, but it was regarded as the one of the saddest films ever, I would say it was a sad film, not a funny, based on the film.


As for how they got food early on. Look, when you are hungry you eat. if you do not have food you go out and get it, foraging and looting is prevalent in all zombie fiction. I will be honest with you as a father, if my daughter was hungry I WOULD find a way to feed her. foraging wouldn't have a time table I would do it as needed and even before hand in perception for it. At no point would I let her go hungry if it was within my power to change that.
True that. Couple of points. I am sure the dedication and desire of a father for a child would be FAR stronger that that of random people to random people. And easier to find something for ONE person unable to find for themselves than to find for HUNDREDS apparently unable to find for themselves.


In Day, no they can not find anyone other than themselves. That does not mean there are not other people. They just can't find them. Even the nature of the houses down there and the topography make it hard to stand up to the dead. Lots of glass to let in that natural sunlight, lots of sliding glass doors.
True it does not mean there are no others. Although it would be odd that in Florida people would not want to be "found" but in Land they would.


The green had a person with a plan, he had power, and he had people willing to follow orders. That is not something you would find universally available. Like I said in the other thread and you can debate this freely, there WAS a military presence in Day. In Land there was no national guard, there was no army. There was just Kauffman and what he wanted. He wasn't trying to reach Washington at all, he was in his white tower weathering the siege as king, president, and ruler of his domain.
Kaufman did indeed have different goals. But those goals seem highly unrealistic if we are to take it that it happens a long time into the outbreak. "Hmmm, civilization as we know it has broken down, chaos reigns, unyielding enemy all around, their numbers swelling despite all efforts, no new production of good likely....I think I will try to set up a community similar to before where I am supreme leader, with a goal of making money. People will support this idea. I will make sure people are still separated by class. Etc." This premise seems rediculous overall, but especially a long time past the initial outbreak.

As far as the military goes, I can only take it that the...."army types" that we see around, the ones wearing the same uniforms, following a chain of command, etc. are in fact the military/national guard/etc. Their allegiance is to Kaufman now, not 'Washington'. I think that Kaufman's plan is preposterous. But dont you think that a group of people used to following orders, even if they personally think is preposterous, is FAR more likely than a group of random accountants, Fast food workers, mailmen, etc. who by their own wits have managed to stay alive during the crisis, with their own personal goals, ideas, etc. all of a sudden banding together and acting like a chain of command in a rediculous plan is a valid way to now live their lives? In fact, my biggest complaint about Land is this... I think that GAR did not fall into typical generic stereotype characters in his films. He did this in Land. All of the ...."order providers" in Land....none of them have a problem with the fact that half the people are allowed to live in luxury, providing no value service to the group as a whole, and the other half have to live in squaller with not even simple medicines for their children, except for Riley? Everyone else seems to think that this is a fine way to live. And a common theme in his movies is that people can not get along in small groups. This is even true in Land itself. Yet this large number of people can get along and follow a leader with a stupid plan that is totally unfair? A handful of people cant agree to just board the windows in Night, but a large group can agree to provide luxury for people in a tower in Land? The only way this makes sense (if it does at all) is that it happens close to the start of the outbreak.


There were more people because it was a city that was fortified, in a large metro section. NATURALLY that means more people around. Transversely you have a remote and supposedly secret military outpost out i nthe middle of nowhere. The purpose of which is very different than the Green.
Yes this talks to why there might be more people around, and yes there were different purposes. It does not explain where these people were as the fighting was going on, and how they came to be inside once the downtown was secured.


Also I would like to add that people had mentioned the fact that there were not thousands of dead around the fence I explained this due to remote location. There are other factors we have not considered as well. natural land barriers (water, swamps and so on), predators (gators), more rapid source of decay and thus insects that attack dead flesh, and to this the fact that they were rounding up the dead and bringing them int othe holding pen you can pretty clearly paint a picture as to why the fence was not completely surrounded. Another factor you did not bring up...although it is not directly mentioned, you can infer due to the actual location, the base is on a small island, which I believe only has one small bridge access to it. There is low population on the island to begin with, and any blocking of the one bridge would dramatically alter the total number of zeds crossing it, although I dont think many would to begin with.

[Thorn]

I greatly appreciate the fact that although you do not agree with me, you can still acknowledge that my supporting arguments have merit. Although it is hard to make these kinds of judgments based on message board posts, if I were ever faced with a zombie outbreak, I would be honored to be teamed up with you to fight the threat.

Thank you sir, your arguments certainly do have merit and as I said a number of them made me really think hard on my own position. Some of what you spoke of I never even thought about, like them having never lost control of the city. It makes perfect sense though.

If the dead walk, it would be an honor to fight by your side. You are a good guy and and very cerebral and I think that is INVALUABLE in the world. Even more so in pressure situations. The marines for example condition their soldiers to react not to think, but their officers are always thinking. If not for that there would be no victory. That is why you attack a command structure first. So intelligence is at a premium in a world gone mad in my opinion.



It is a fact that he never said he was going back before Day to make Land. Although I dont think that means much. I can only use the films themselves to make determinations. If a filmmaker set out to make the best comedy ever, but it was regarded as the one of the saddest films ever, I would say it was a sad film, not a funny, based on the film.

An excellent point.



True that. Couple of points. I am sure the dedication and desire of a father for a child would be FAR stronger that that of random people to random people. And easier to find something for ONE person unable to find for themselves than to find for HUNDREDS apparently unable to find for themselves.

Also very true.



True it does not mean there are no others. Although it would be odd that in Florida people would not want to be "found" but in Land they would.

Agreed. I think there are people I just think not along the coast. The coast is a tricky place to be, besides the buildings and architecture you have a high population density and in Florida a high population of elderly. So I think there would be more dead than living on the coast. The weather can be unkind in storm season to boot only compounding how hard it would be for people to hold out there for any lengthy period of time.


As far as the military goes, I can only take it that the...."army types" that we see around, the ones wearing the same uniforms, following a chain of command, etc. are in fact the military/national guard/etc. Their allegiance is to Kaufman now, not 'Washington'....

Yes I agree with this statement, I think that in the end the military people that were there and likely law enforcement took up under Kaufman. I think by the point in the "situation" we come into land other non original military people and law enforcement have likely been recruited as well.

I do not remember seeing any rank insignias, or anything indicating branch or affiliation. Which could mean a few things. Either they have been removed because the old guard is thought to be dead, no country affiliation, no military affiliation, they serve only Kauffman. They are just what was laying around some cheap store somewhere. They were produced in the city post dead rising... hmm a number of options really. But you would think that if it was just into the dead rise scenario there would be more of the old rank and file designations hanging around still.


Another factor you did not bring up...although it is not directly mentioned, you can infer due to the actual location, the base is on a small island, which I believe only has one small bridge access to it. There is low population on the island to begin with, and any blocking of the one bridge would dramatically alter the total number of zeds crossing it, although I dont think many would to begin with.

Another excellent point I had not considered.

[darth los]

True that. Couple of points. I am sure the dedication and desire of a father Kaufman did indeed have different goals. But those goals seem highly unrealistic if we are to take it that it happens a long time into the outbreak. "Hmmm, civilization as we know it has broken down, chaos reigns, unyielding enemy all around, their numbers swelling despite all efforts, no new production of good likely....I think I will try to set up a community similar to before where I am supreme leader, with a goal of making money. People will support this idea. I will make sure people are still separated by class. Etc." This premise seems rediculous overall, but especially a long time past the initial outbreak.


Well that's the way the world really is. It's not so far fetched that in this new world where the old rules don't apply anymore that people want comfort and security. People fear the unknown most of all and is it really so hard to believe that people wanted their old lives back? To try and live in a manner a close as possible before "God changed the rules on them"?

He gave it to them and they submitted. It doesn't matter how long into the outbreak it was. Is it any different than the freedoms we give up to the government in exchange for ceratin things that they provide?




:cool:

[Thorn]

Well that's the way the world really is. It's not so far fetched that in this new world where the old rules don't apply anymore that people want comfort and security. People fear the unknown most of all and is it really so hard to believe that people wanted their old lives back? To try and live in a manner a close as possible before "God changed the rules on them"?

He gave it to them and they submitted. It doesn't matter how long into the outbreak it was. Is it any different than the freedoms we give up to the government in exchange for ceratin things that they provide?




:cool:

You know I think that is a really good point Darth.

[darth los]

You know I think that is a really good point Darth.

Coming from a good "pointmaker" such as yourself that means alot.

And believe you me, it's not easy coming up with something that you and philly haven't already thought of. :lol: :p




:cool:

[EvilNed]

I've just read a book called The Words of their Roaring, which is set in a zombie apocalypse. It features the same kind of powerhungry figure (such as Kaufman) in a zombie infested future. It's pretty much convinced me that a society such as Lands would be impossible to obtain within 1 years into an outbreak. Especially in a huge city. Starting something like that would take time. Re-establishing the economy would take time. Land takes place at LEAST 3 years into the outbreak. And the status of the soldiers in Day suggests it doesn't take place past 1 year into the outbreak.

[Philly_SWAT]

Well that's the way the world really is. It's not so far fetched that in this new world where the old rules don't apply anymore that people want comfort and security. People fear the unknown most of all and is it really so hard to believe that people wanted their old lives back? To try and live in a manner a close as possible before "God changed the rules on them"?

He gave it to them and they submitted. It doesn't matter how long into the outbreak it was. Is it any different than the freedoms we give up to the government in exchange for ceratin things that they provide?




:cool:

Not a bad post, but I do have to take issue with it. Sure, a lot of people would want their old lives back. But you are not suggesting that poor people living on the streets with no food, medicine, etc would want that life back, are you? And even if they did (perhaps that would be better than the alternative at the time) where were they are what were they doing when the fighting to retake the city was going on? If they joined in the fight, then it seems unlikely they were accept second class citizenship once the city was retaken. If they didnt join in the fight, what were they doing? Standing nearby, watching the fight, then being accepted inside after not risking anything to secure the downtown?

And when you say "Kaufman gave it to them" you are acting like that is some type of simple task for an ambitious entrepenure. Again, if the city had fallen, it would not have been easy to retake it. Yeah, if the city was retaken, and you luckily had stayed alive and stumbled across the city, and Kaufman says you can come in but have to be a second class citizen, you might greatly prefer that to barely surviving in a non-secure world. But where would be the benefit to Kaufman in that? It would be more mouths to feed, mouths that had no money and/or benefit to him. The zombie fighting events were set up for the street people, not the people living in the tower.

And again, if this was some time past the start of the outbreak, do you really believe that the promise of 'money' would inspire people to participate in retaking a downtown area of a major city? For a well armed group of competent people, there would be any number of safer and easier locations to establish as a stronghold than downtown Pitt.


I've just read a book called The Words of their Roaring, which is set in a zombie apocalypse. It features the same kind of powerhungry figure (such as Kaufman) in a zombie infested future. It's pretty much convinced me that a society such as Lands would be impossible to obtain within 1 years into an outbreak. Especially in a huge city. Starting something like that would take time. Re-establishing the economy would take time. Land takes place at LEAST 3 years into the outbreak. And the status of the soldiers in Day suggests it doesn't take place past 1 year into the outbreak.

I will go you one further. Not only would it be impossible to establish a society like in Land in one year, it would also be impossible in 3 years. More than likely impossible at all once the outbreak got going full bore. Societies, economies, etc, evolved slowly throughout time, decades, centuries. And this was in a world where there were no flesh eating zombies about. Example: in the 17th century, you would accept gold coin or paper money as payment for something, because you had good reason to believe that where ever you might go, the next town, the next state, etc. there would be people there willing to accept your money in exchange for goods and services, and also that there would in fact be goods and services to purchase. They would be no such expectations in a post-zombie world. That is why the whole idea of money in Land bothers me so much. Cholo wants money to go to Cleavland. He does not know for sure if there even IS an outpost there, and if there is, whether they are set up to use money or not. It makes no sense. It made more sense he wanted to live in the Tower in the Green, as he knew what life was like there, but even then, he was a key part of how goods were available in the Green to begin his. He quits foraging = less goods. Riley was known to be quitting too, so the two leaders were not going to be getting goods anymore. How many goods would there be for Cholo to "buy" with his money?

Therefore the existence of people who want money, along with the aforementioned points about holding vs retaking the city, both point to these events being close to the time of outbreak, not far away from it.

[sandrock74]

Maybe Cleveland did use money, just like the Green. Remember, they were in communication with one another. I'm sure over the course of them talking, that they would be familiar with any money-type situations. Someone like Kaufman would have definitely brought it up.

It may be a stretch to believe, but so is believing that zombies are walking around! To me, the money issue isn't that hard to swallow in comparrison.

[MoonSylver]

Maybe Cleveland did use money, just like the Green. Remember, they were in communication with one another. I'm sure over the course of them talking, that they would be familiar with any money-type situations. Someone like Kaufman would have definitely brought it up.

It may be a stretch to believe, but so is believing that zombies are walking around! To me, the money issue isn't that hard to swallow in comparrison.

That was the impression I always got. Kaufman does make mention that he has "other places" prepared for them. He's in a big hurry to take some loot along as well, so he's gotta have SOMEPLACE to spend it...

[krakenslayer]

Quite probably there are other places using the same currency, which of course explains why Kauflman tries to flee with the cash. However, I think the primary reason he refused to pay Cholo was to protect the Green's own fragile internal economy. He was scared that by giving too much money to people who lived "on the wrong side of the tracks" he would imbalance the financial status quo and endanger his own position of power. By the time Cholo hit the warpath, he knew that by shelling the Green he'd be shelling his chance to spend his money even if he got it, but by that time it had gone so far it was like a crusade, it wasn't even about the cash anymore.

[EvilNed]

I will go you one further. Not only would it be impossible to establish a society like in Land in one year, it would also be impossible in 3 years. More than likely impossible at all once the outbreak got going full bore.

Improbable, yes, impossible, no. But I don't think it's impossible that Land is set 5 or 6 years after the outbreak. But several characters clearly establish 3, so that's what I'm going with.

As for the money, I totally accept the working society within Fiddler's Green as having it's own economy. Infact, I think it's only logical. Once people realized that they needed some kind of monetary items, they probably brought back the dollars (or whatever it is). It's not as if they forgot about it. I believe that once a society like Lands popped up, money would soon follow. It'd take some time, yes. But 3 years is perhaps enough... At least in "Lands" world.

[darth los]

Improbable, yes, impossible, no. But I don't think it's impossible that Land is set 5 or 6 years after the outbreak. But several characters clearly establish 3, so that's what I'm going with.

As for the money, I totally accept the working society within Fiddler's Green as having it's own economy. Infact, I think it's only logical. Once people realized that they needed some kind of monetary items, they probably brought back the dollars (or whatever it is). It's not as if they forgot about it. I believe that once a society like Lands popped up, money would soon follow. It'd take some time, yes. But 3 years is perhaps enough... At least in "Lands" world.

Well, it stands to reason that in any society the need for a monetary/bartering system would arise. It's not so far fetched that they went back to what they were familiar with.



Quite probably there are other places using the same currency, which of course explains why Kauflman tries to flee with the cash. However, I think the primary reason he refused to pay Cholo was to protect the Green's own fragile internal economy. He was scared that by giving too much money to people who lived "on the wrong side of the tracks" he would imbalance the financial status quo and endanger his own position of power. By the time Cholo hit the warpath, he knew that by shelling the Green he'd be shelling his chance to spend his money even if he got it, but by that time it had gone so far it was like a crusade, it wasn't even about the cash anymore.



I always love it when new and interesting points are brought up, which is no easy task since we discuss these things ad nauseum. But your right. We give cholo alot of shit for wanting to flee with 5 million but kaufman was going to do the same thing. Now where would all these people get this idea from that they could do something like that?

Them being holed up in the manner that they were suggests that they wouldn't take many unecessary chances such as fleeing into a zombie infested world with a few briefcases of useless paper in the hopes that IF they find someplace else they can spend it there.




:cool:

[Philly_SWAT]

Maybe Cleveland did use money, just like the Green. Remember, they were in communication with one another. I'm sure over the course of them talking, that they would be familiar with any money-type situations. Someone like Kaufman would have definitely brought it up.

It may be a stretch to believe, but so is believing that zombies are walking around! To me, the money issue isn't that hard to swallow in comparrison.


That was the impression I always got. Kaufman does make mention that he has "other places" prepared for them. He's in a big hurry to take some loot along as well, so he's gotta have SOMEPLACE to spend it...


Quite probably there are other places using the same currency, which of course explains why Kauflman tries to flee with the cash. However, I think the primary reason he refused to pay Cholo was to protect the Green's own fragile internal economy. He was scared that by giving too much money to people who lived "on the wrong side of the tracks" he would imbalance the financial status quo and endanger his own position of power. By the time Cholo hit the warpath, he knew that by shelling the Green he'd be shelling his chance to spend his money even if he got it, but by that time it had gone so far it was like a crusade, it wasn't even about the cash anymore.


Well, it stands to reason that in any society the need for a monetary/bartering system would arise. It's not so far fetched that they went back to what they were familiar with.

I always love it when new and interesting points are brought up, which is no easy task since we discuss these things ad nauseum. But your right. We give cholo alot of shit for wanting to flee with 5 million but kaufman was going to do the same thing. Now where would all these people get this idea from that they could do something like that?

Them being holed up in the manner that they were suggests that they wouldn't take many unecessary chances such as fleeing into a zombie infested world with a few briefcases of useless paper in the hopes that IF they find someplace else they can spend it there.
:cool:


Improbable, yes, impossible, no. But I don't think it's impossible that Land is set 5 or 6 years after the outbreak. But several characters clearly establish 3, so that's what I'm going with.

As for the money, I totally accept the working society within Fiddler's Green as having it's own economy. Infact, I think it's only logical. Once people realized that they needed some kind of monetary items, they probably brought back the dollars (or whatever it is). It's not as if they forgot about it. I believe that once a society like Lands popped up, money would soon follow. It'd take some time, yes. But 3 years is perhaps enough... At least in "Lands" world.
Something that everyone seems to ignore, or somehow consider unimportant, is that the world that exists in a post zombie outbreak is a world that is filled with ZOMBIES!!! As I stated before, the use of "money" in exchange for goods are services is a concept that evolved over a long period of time. In the past, barter was the main means of exchange, and before that, you were either self sufficient of resorted to theft. All of this in a world that was NOT ZOMBIE INFESTED!!! You could find a patch of land, build a cabin, and sow the land for food. Money was a means to an end....a life of greater prosperity for yourself and your family...the ability to buy goods that others produced so you didnt have to produce them yourselves. The inherent concept of money falls apart when there are NO goods being produced. There is NO land you can go to and live a peaceful quiet life. The world is OVERRUN with ZEDS!!! You need protection-shelter and weapons. You need food to survive...not as an indulgence. There is no way that with the world gone to hell in a handbasket that somehow a monetary system would spring up in a short period of time. Not only has human society drastically change, the very EARTH itself has drastically changed. There are zombies all about. The only thing that makes sense about wanting money is that the time period is still close to the way things were, not that society has evolved somehow in the midst of chaos.

[SRP76]

What's with all the "adopt a money system" talk? Why is everyone assuming that the concept of money was somehow "introduced" to the poor bastards stuck in the city?

The city was secured from within. As such, the money system never left. They didn't "start" using money, they just never stopped using it.

[krakenslayer]

What's with all the "adopt a money system" talk? Why is everyone assuming that the concept of money was somehow "introduced" to the poor bastards stuck in the city?

The city was secured from within. As such, the money system never left. They didn't "start" using money, they just never stopped using it.

I think the idea that a money system was introduced comes from that fact that old-style, pre-outbreak money would have almost completely lost its value during the fall of civilisation. Old-style money would be incredibly easy to come across, you could just walk into an abandoned bank and help yourself, like Peter and Roger did in Dawn. The surviving settlements may have had to agree on a new currency that wasn't compromised like the old dollar. However, if such a thing did happen, then the new dollar must look superficially similar to the old because the money seen in the movie does look like modern currency.

[Philly_SWAT]

I think the idea that a money system was introduced comes from that fact that old-style, pre-outbreak money would have almost completely lost its value during the fall of civilisation. Old-style money would be incredibly easy to come across, you could just walk into an abandoned bank and help yourself, like Peter and Roger did in Dawn. The surviving settlements may have had to agree on a new currency that wasn't compromised like the old dollar. However, if such a thing did happen, then the new dollar must look superficially similar to the old because the money seen in the movie does look like modern currency.

Your idea here does not make much sense, for several reasons. For one, with a horrible death-by-zed figuratively and literally lurking around every corner, do you really think establishing a new monetary system would be at the top of the list of things to do for survivors? Or more accurately, at the top of the list of things to do for COMPETENT, likely-to-survive survivors? "I think we should fortify our position, search for new weapons, and try to figure out a way to obtain food other than raiding old stores". "Naw, I think it is more important to find a printing press, determine how much paper money is needed to run a cash society, complete with people being separated by class. That will ensure our survival more than your 'look for food' idea." Really?

For another...money, any money, only has value because people choose to accept that it does. The history of money is actually interesting...if you never have, I suggest reading about it. In a nutshell, many things have been used as "money" throughout history....sticks, stones, cow dung..yes, COW DUNG. As long as people accept it as having value, it does. Usually new money is introduced by a government saying that whatever the "new money" is MUST be used to pay taxes. This decree makes everyone want the new thing. But money having value is an illusion, whether we are talking about cow dung or federal reserve notes. We are finding this out now in our current economic crisis. How valuable do you think having paper money, or computer entries denoting lots of money, will be if the food distribution system breaks down? That is why when times are tough, the rich move their wealth into gold. Gold is just as much an illusion as anything else, but people tend to think that gold will....."hold the illusion" more than anything else.

In Land, they could have used existing money easier than creating "new money". Peter and Roger took money from the bank in Dawn in safety..the mall was secured, therefore the bank was secured. There was no threat to them to take it. In Land, the peasants living in the street dont have the testicular fortitude to complain about their shitty situation... you really think they are going to venture out into zed infested lands with no weapons, no transportation, and obtain money from abandoned banks, banks which no doubt still have the money protected? Its not like the money would be laying out in the open with a big sign "zombie outbreak survivors, take this cash."

And even if some did, obtaining the money would be hard, dangerous work. Just as back in the old days, obtaining gold as a tin-pan miner was tough work. But those that could find gold did not "mess up the economy", they just added to the supply of gold, and were rewarded for their efforts. So there would be no need whatsoever, and no good reason whatsoever, to create "new" currency. And I also say, there would be no reason to want ANY currency in a world where having money would not benefit you at all. The only thing that makes sense about the desire for money in Land is that they are close to the start of the outbreak, clinging to the old concept of "I need money".

Someone mentioned earlier something like "they still had communications with Cleavland". No, they didnt, hence the disagreement about whether there were any survivors there or not. And even if you accept the rediculous premise that they were using "money" in Pitt, it is far more logical to assume that other pockets of survivors would have come up with better solutions in order to survive than using some type of cash system, therefore, there would be no reason at all to want money OUTSIDE of Pitt, unless you were so close to the start of the outbreak that you still dilluted yourself with the idea that money is important, because it always has been.

[EvilNed]

Your idea here does not make much sense, for several reasons. For one, with a horrible death-by-zed figuratively and literally lurking around every corner, do you really think establishing a new monetary system would be at the top of the list of things to do for survivors? Or more accurately, at the top of the list of things to do for COMPETENT, likely-to-survive survivors?

For someone like Kaufman? When trying to rebuild society? Quite frankly? Yes. I'd wager that be pretty far up on the list.

As for communications with others, Kaufman clearly states he has set up similar places throughout the country where he would find it fitting to "rebuild" society. I'm assuming there are already some kind of minor outposts here and there, with which he has contact. And they probably use the same money.

[SRP76]

I think the idea that a money system was introduced comes from that fact that old-style, pre-outbreak money would have almost completely lost its value during the fall of civilisation.

That's just the thing: that little area of Pittsburgh didn't fall. It doesn't matter that the outside world went to hell; the people in the cordoned-off city just kept chugging along. The only difference is that instead of being able to go somewhere else and spend money, they had to stay in town and do it.

[Philly_SWAT]

For someone like Kaufman? When trying to rebuild society? Quite frankly? Yes. I'd wager that be pretty far up on the list.

As for communications with others, Kaufman clearly states he has set up similar places throughout the country where he would find it fitting to "rebuild" society. I'm assuming there are already some kind of minor outposts here and there, with which he has contact. And they probably use the same money.

I guess this topic all depends on what someone finds believable. Forget specifically addressing GAR movies...if a zombie outbreak occurred irl similar to as it is depicted in GAR films, I find it highly unlikely/unbelievable that a system of money would be used. Therefore, I find it unbelievable that it should happen in Land. But trying to suspend my disbelief (since it actually DOES happen in Land) I still try to apply real world logic to other scenarios, taking into account that somehow they are using money. The only thing that makes sense to me is that they are close to the start of the outbreak, and are still clinging to the previous ideas, beliefs, and ways of doing things. I suppose if you think irl that money would be used/be important in a apocalyptic setting, then you would believe/accept any number of different scenarios involving the use of money in Land.

Funny thing is, in numerous, NUMEROUS, discussions on this board in the past, when some version of the question "what would you do" comes up, I cant recall anyone mentioning how they would set about to get money. People talk about fleeing to country areas, what weapons they would use, what they would do in various situations to survive, would they hold up or stay mobile, etc. If anyone here thinks that money would be an important item to have, that it would improve their chances for survival, then apparently everyone has neglected to mention it until now.

[EvilNed]

I guess this topic all depends on what someone finds believable. Forget specifically addressing GAR movies...if a zombie outbreak occurred irl similar to as it is depicted in GAR films, I find it highly unlikely/unbelievable that a system of money would be used. Therefore, I find it unbelievable that it should happen in Land.

That's because Land is set far into the outbreak. It's not your average, run-of-the-mill "Whoops, the zombies are coming, time to hit the road!" situation. Which is also why you never heard anyone mentioning zombies. Money wouldn't help my survival, unless I lived in a society where money was valuable. But immediately following an outbreak, money would be useless... But Land isn't set immediately following the outbreak. Quite the opposite.

Let me get this straight... Let's say it's three years into the outbreak. Or rather, three years since human civilization completely collapsed. This warlord guy starts rebuilding in the middle of wherever. There's plenty of supplies, he has a personal army and people flock to him. In two years time he has a thousand people under him, maybe more. And things are looking OK. But there's no working economy as of yet... And economy is one of the backbones of a working society.

So what's the next logical step? Get that economy working, of course! Without it, you don't have a society. You have a gathering of people.

It's very logical, but it would take a few years for this to establish. Just as it did in Land (3+ years).

[Philly_SWAT]

That's because Land is set far into the outbreak. It's not your average, run-of-the-mill "Whoops, the zombies are coming, time to hit the road!" situation. Which is also why you never heard anyone mentioning zombies. Money wouldn't help my survival, unless I lived in a society where money was valuable. But immediately following an outbreak, money would be useless... But Land isn't set immediately following the outbreak. Quite the opposite.

Let me get this straight... Let's say it's three years into the outbreak. Or rather, three years since human civilization completely collapsed. This warlord guy starts rebuilding in the middle of wherever. There's plenty of supplies, he has a personal army and people flock to him. In two years time he has a thousand people under him, maybe more. And things are looking OK. But there's no working economy as of yet... And economy is one of the backbones of a working society.

So what's the next logical step? Get that economy working, of course! Without it, you don't have a society. You have a gathering of people.

It's very logical, but it would take a few years for this to establish. Just as it did in Land (3+ years).

I am not sure if you believe what you are saying, or just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you actually think that in a short period of time, say three years, that you can go from no economy to a functioning cash society, I think you are INCREDIBLY underestimating the difficulty in accomplishing such a task, and the risk vs. reward of even attempting to do so in a world that is drastically different than one that any of us have to use as a reference point.

If you have sound, logical plans to accomplish such an economic miracle, then I suggest that you offer your services to the world at large right now, as we could definitely use the help of some extraordinary economic plans.