Absoluetly disgusting...

[Tricky]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/article2312015.ece

Why the hell our government sends our soldiers out to fight these kind of people,then lets them be abused by muslim fanatics on their return i just dont know,its a discrace!I read in another paper that one of them was shouting that british troops had raped thousands of iraqi women,complete bollocks!our army is the most disciplined & decent in the world & i havent heard one single report about british troops raping iraqi women! :mad:

[SymphonicX]

An argument for freedom of speech, whatever way you look at it.

[Tricky]

An argument for freedom of speech, whatever way you look at it.

Then one should argue that if these scumbags wish to make such statements in public then they should use real facts instead of imagined ones,British soldiers are not rapists or "war criminals", and they certainly shouldnt be allowed to abuse our soldiers on the streets with police protection,they should have been moved on to protest elsewhere.Would that kind of abuse from muslim fanatics to american soldiers be allowed on home turf?

[Chic Freak]

I don't agree with their message but they do have a right to peaceful protest (i.e. sign-waving). Apparently the ones verbally abusing the troops were arrested. So meh *shrug*

[MinionZombie]

Arrested, but they won't get anything, a slap on the wrists maybe.

It's also bad in the respect that they're not representative of the Muslim people, and will only strengthen the message of the bastard BNP who prey on xenophobic numpties.

But it's bang out of order still - I wonder if they'd been white-skinned protesters they'd have been allowed to shout and scream and carry on like that for so long? You do have to wonder.

Plus - indeed - using such blatant lies in their "protest" is just sick.

Free speech - sometimes it's a son of a bitch, but ironically, it's the very soldiers they were protesting who are the sort of people who have allowed folk in Britain to actually protest ... even if the gubment has done everything it can to quell dissent. :mad:

I wonder if this sort of thing will happen elsewhere. I hope not - these men and women are doing their job. They've been dodging bullets and rpgs for months and even years, and you never hear about the good they do. Only the bad committed by the very few, or reports of how the war isn't going particularly well.

Really, Saddam should have been ousted in the 90s when they were first in there, we'd be 15 years further down the road now if they'd just stuck at it a little longer, but oh no...

Therefore, after having already invaded Afghanistan (which I don't think people can really argue with, not to the same degree as they have with Iraq at least) it's just daft to start a war on a second front at the same time ... but it happened.

Basically, the nutters in these areas need to be gotten rid of to allow the people who, just like the vast, vast majority of people across the world, just want to live in peace and raise their kids.

Needless to say however, I'd certainly not like to be a Commander in Chief at this time ... ... nor ever, actually.

[Mike70]

first off - as a veteran i find this kind of thing revolting. that these pieces of shit have the audacity and ignorance to insult people willing to serve is outrageous beyond belief.

that one asshole holding the sign that says "british govt. terrorist govt." really ought to piss people off. if he hates the UK so much, why the fuck does he live there?

protest the actions of the govt. all you want, i don't care - knock yourself out but when asshats like these people start verbally abusing soldiers behind the protection of free speech, heads ought to roll.

i would also point out that verbal abuse and harassment are NOT protected forms of free speech.

[MinionZombie]

i would also point out that verbal abuse and harassment are NOT protected forms of free speech.

This whole thing reminds me of the phelps' 'family' protesting soldier funerals in the states - is that still going on, or are they still allowed to get away with that?

Essentially what they're doing is preaching hate.

[Mike70]

This whole thing reminds me of the phelps' 'family' protesting soldier funerals in the states - is that still going on, or are they still allowed to get away with that?

Essentially what they're doing is preaching hate.

some states have passed laws that ban idiots from picketing at funerals. a federal law needs to be enacted to that effect. the family of a marine killed in action successfully sued the phelps family last year and won $5 million in damages. as a result a federal lien was placed on the property and holdings of the westboro baptist church.

http://cjonline.com/stories/040408/loc_264906171.shtml

oh and did you know they are barred for life from entering the UK?

free speech was intended to prevent the govt. from interfering with the public's ability to make themselves heard on matters relating to the actions of the govt. free speech is not a license to act like a fool in public. i don't think it applies in the case of the phelps' family either. what they are doing (as the fools in this article are) is abusive, hateful and violent because harassment and verbal abuse are, in fact, forms of violence. so, i don't think the phelps family ought to be able to do what they do because they are not protesting a govt. action so much as trying to inflict needless pain and suffering on an already grieving family that has lost (most likely) a very young son or daughter. it's bullshit plain and simple. that sound you hear is james madison (4th president and the man who wrote most of the constitution and all of the bill of rights) rolling in his grave.

british soldiers, like their american and canadian counterparts, are citizen-soliders. people who have volunteered to serve but still retain all their rights they had as civilians (this is what is called civic militarism and it is peculiar to the west). they are not elected officials nor are they ministers of the govt., so i see no reason why they should have to be subjected to this kind of shit.

if these muslim idiots have a problem with britian's involvement in iraq, i have a suggestion: go protest in front of the ministry of defense.

[AcesandEights]

Yeah, that's pretty horrifying and very depressing.

Spouses & family, military aux., Veteran's groups and any concerned citizens should do their best to be present for when troops come home to support them, let them know they're loved and appreciated and...suppress...some of the worse forms of this sort of hate and protest. It won't solve it and it won't really change the heart of the matter for those who have come out to protest, but it can help undercut what may otherwise seem like a tide of hate to those vets returning home.

[Chic Freak]

if these muslim idiots have a problem with britian's involvement in iraq, i have a suggestion: go protest in front of the ministry of defense.

Right on.

[MinionZombie]

oh and did you know they are barred for life from entering the UK?

Aye, I saw that happening - strangely enough, right on the heels of another free speech related issue - a politician (Geert Wilders) was coming over to present his film "Fitna" (about Muslim radicalism or thereabouts apparently), but was blocked entry and returned to his home country immediately.

However - was he a preacher of hate? I'm not convinced - nor was the film properly discussed in any kind of detail - indeed, Muslim leaders wanted to converse with Wilders in person, to debate him.

Also, hilariously, that utter prat Keith Vaz (known for being a Jack Thompson style complainer about violent videogames) was on Newsnight bitching about "Fitna" WITHOUT WATCHING IT.

The presenter, Kirsty Wark, damn near fell off her chair laughing in shock.

Anyway - methinks Wilders should have been allowed, or considered further - was his message/documentary actually preaching hate? I'm not sure - and indeed, many people wanted the opportunity to debate him directly - this was denied.

Now - Phelps on the other hand - a completely different case, and a clear case of preaching hate - they're preachers, and they preach hate, and damn straight that they should be denied entry into the UK (to picket a student play, if memory serves - I know, weird eh?)

*sigh*

[Tricky]

Something else frightening to do with the British Army as well - im currently going through the process of signing up to the territorial army (mainly as i need the extra money,and it will be an exciting second job as opposed to my regular office job) & last week i sat in on a lecture on LOAC or 'laws of armed combat', and we were told that if a taliban fighter empties a magazine at you,then you cant pop up and shoot back while he's empty as apparently he's "not a threat to life while his weapon is discharged",the same as if you are being pelted by stones,petrol bombs,bricks etc while out on patrol there is absolutely nothing you can do about it other than stand there & take it, as any of those objects are not considered a threat to life (hence that footage of those british troops on fire running from that burning tank,the troops were not allowed to react to what was happening while a massive crowd had surrounded them & was trying to burn them alive,we had to watch that whole thing as part of the lecture)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/haoung/tanksoldier.jpg

There was a whole bunch of other ridiculous laws as well relating to enemy spotters being untouchable as they are "not a direct threat to life" even if they are stood there on a mobile phone quite clearly directing fire on to our troops :stunned:
Its no wonder so many of our lads are being killed out there because politicians & lawyers have tied their hands up completely!

[Publius]

Something else frightening to do with the British Army as well - im currently going through the process of signing up to the territorial army (mainly as i need the extra money,and it will be an exciting second job as opposed to my regular office job) & last week i sat in on a lecture on LOAC or 'laws of armed combat', and we were told that if a taliban fighter empties a magazine at you,then you cant pop up and shoot back while he's empty as apparently he's "not a threat to life while his weapon is discharged",the same as if you are being pelted by stones,petrol bombs,bricks etc while out on patrol there is absolutely nothing you can do about it other than stand there & take it, as any of those objects are not considered a threat to life (hence that footage of those british troops on fire running from that burning tank,the troops were not allowed to react to what was happening while a massive crowd had surrounded them & was trying to burn them alive,we had to watch that whole thing as part of the lecture)

(image snipped)

There was a whole bunch of other ridiculous laws as well relating to enemy spotters being untouchable as they are "not a direct threat to life" even if they are stood there on a mobile phone quite clearly directing fire on to our troops :stunned:
Its no wonder so many of our lads are being killed out there because politicians & lawyers have tied their hands up completely!

I'm proud to say U.S. forces are under no such restrictions, at least as a general matter (ROE for particular operations may vary). At least in the reload and spotter cases, that's a clearly absurd interpretation of LOAC.

[Bruiser235]

Sickening. Truely sickening. I sure hope to hell this crap doesn't start here again like it did during the Vietnam war.

[SymphonicX]

Then one should argue that if these scumbags wish to make such statements in public then they should use real facts instead of imagined ones,British soldiers are not rapists or "war criminals", and they certainly shouldnt be allowed to abuse our soldiers on the streets with police protection,they should have been moved on to protest elsewhere.Would that kind of abuse from muslim fanatics to american soldiers be allowed on home turf?


Unfortunately it's tolerated by neo christians who picket dead soldier's funerals...in america...so yeah...

and without playing devil's advocate too much - none of us (incl protesters) really know what's happening down there, and to blanket every one of "our boys" as a morally upstanding and good person is a bit blindsided.

[Tricky]

Unfortunately it's tolerated by neo christians who picket dead soldier's funerals...in america...so yeah...

and without playing devil's advocate too much - none of us (incl protesters) really know what's happening down there, and to blanket every one of "our boys" as a morally upstanding and good person is a bit blindsided.

Thats true,there are definitely some bad eggs in the forces,but its equally wrong to blanket them all as baby killing rapist murderers!these muslim fanatics have never cared much for facts when it comes to spewing anti-western bile though...

[MinionZombie]

Amazing really - these bad eggs of the Muslim world (they give the Muslim people a bad and undeserved name) preach hate (which can't really be called "free speech", at the very least it stretches the term to the absolute limits) about Britain - decrying this nation ... IN WHICH THEY LIVE ... and if they hate it so much, WHY do they STAY HERE?

Just to cause trouble most likely - and possibly other things, such as taking up places in our universities, or claiming benefits. Hypocrisy of the highest order, quite honestly.

Indeed, there are some soldiers who are just bad people who should never have been allowed to become soldiers, and that tiny minority provide ammunition for this other minority-of-a-minority to preach hate.

A good outcome however, is the increased resolve of those welcoming the troops home to put even more effort into the celebrations - and indeed, any good soldier will just have their resolve strengthened in fighting scumbags like these.

[Mike70]

Unfortunately it's tolerated by neo christians who picket dead soldier's funerals...in america...so yeah...

actually many states have recently passed laws either banning demonstrations at funerals or requiring them to stay 500ft or more away from a funeral or memorial service. i have wondered for many years why the westboro baptist church (the morons responsible) are able to get away with what they do under the first amendment. their protests seem to meet the criteria laid out for unprotected speech in chaplinsky v. new hampshire (1942) and cincinnati v. karlan (1974)

in chaplinsky the court decided that:


There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting" words those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.

this was streamlined and made clearer in gooding v. wilson (1972) and lewis v. new orleans (1974) and even further clarified in cincinnati v. karlan (1974) where the Ohio supreme court, acting under remand by the US supreme court, decided:


Persons may not be punished for speaking boisterous, rude or insulting words, even with the intent to annoy another, unless the words by their very utterance inflict injury or are likely to provoke the average person to an immediate retaliatory breach of the peace.

now if what those fools are doing isn't going to inflict injury on a grieving family or provoke a reasonable person to commit a breach of the peace (which has in fact happened several times), i'm the czar of all the russia's.

anyhoo, like i posted above the family of a marine killed in action recently won a $5 million judgment against the people who organize these abominations and a federal lien has been place on their property. they won't be able to escape this verdict by declaring bankruptcy either because punitive damages cannot be discharged by bankruptcy.

[SRP76]

And just what have these jerkoffs done to earn any "right"? Spend 8 hours jockeying a fucking cash register at the 7-Eleven, then go home and slap their wives around?

Fuck them. Just a bunch of worthless nobodies trying to attack the ones who actually have the balls to put their lives on the line.

[Yojimbo]

Just like someone mentioned that there are bad eggs in the US forces that make everyone else look bad, there are also the same in the Muslim world as well.

I have heard similar anti-war rhetoric from those who call themselves "liberals" who are US citizens.

I think it is important that we all remember that it is not Muslims, per se, that are the problem, but bad eggs in general.

[blind2d]

You know what they say about one rotten apple... Humanity in general suffers from this disease. An answer may never be found, but we should never stop looking for one. - Noodle
Er, yeah... what she said. - Me

[Chic Freak]

And just what have these jerkoffs done to earn any "right"? Spend 8 hours jockeying a fucking cash register at the 7-Eleven, then go home and slap their wives around?

What? You know these people personally? :s

[Yojimbo]

Back during world war 2 it did not even take a few bad eggs to get the country so riled up against Japanese Americans that they rounded all of them up on the west coast and stuck them in concentration camps. I felt creepy shades of that sort of rhetoric right after 9/11 and even to this day.

But that being said, I find it terrible that good folks like Mike have gone out to serve their country and risk their lives away from their families, and then get disrespected just because some errant retard who also happened to be a soldier misbehaved.

[Mike70]

But that being said, I find it terrible that good folks like Mike have gone out to serve their country and risk their lives away from their families, and then get disrespected just because some errant retard who also happened to be a soldier misbehaved.

no jimbo, i've never personally been sniped at by anyone because i am a vet. it just really pisses me off when i see or hear of it happening.

i'll have to read back through my posts in this thread and make sure i didn't give that impression.

[Yojimbo]

no jimbo, i've never personally been sniped at by anyone because i am a vet. it just really pisses me off when i see or hear of it happening.

i'll have to read back through my posts in this thread and make sure i didn't give that impression.


Sorry, brother, did not mean to imply that you had personally been trashed for being a vet, and you did not write anything in this thread that let me to believe any such thing.

Let me clarify that I meant that I find it totally unacceptable that veterans of any kind - including yourself - who have honorably served their country should be on the receiving end of any sort of disrespect.

Now, I realize that there are those out there who protest war of any kind, and there are those out there that simply hated Bush and therefore would protest and villify anything that he was associated with. And I realize that there are those who protest just for the sake of protesting (like those who consider themselves anarchists) just because they feel that doing so is hip or fun. But to screw with anyone simply because they chose to serve their country is, as far as I am concerned, bullshit. Go ahead and protest the war, but for chrissakes please support the troops.

I saw in the newspaper the other day ago that some latino gangmembers shot at some other latino gangmembers. Do I therefore villify all latinos? Or how about the story of Octomom? Do I therefore think all women are lazy and unbalanced and in serious need of an IUD? Along these lines, servicemen and women should not be categorically hated because of the alleged acts of some unbalanced few.

[SRP76]

What? You know these people personally? :s

Not this particular set of fuckheads, but I've been associated with several that fit that description. Many times, my college-age friends go off on "the babykiller rants" (as I call them), and it pisses me off. I ask them, "hey, while I was serving, risking my ass, just what the fuck were you doing that was so great?". There's never a real response, since they don't have a leg to stand on. Most of them have never done a single thing to help anyone other than themselves, and would sooner hide under the nearest rock than face any kind of risk.

[Chic Freak]

Not this particular set of fuckheads, but I've been associated with several that fit that description. Many times, my college-age friends go off on "the babykiller rants" (as I call them), and it pisses me off. I ask them, "hey, while I was serving, risking my ass, just what the fuck were you doing that was so great?". There's never a real response, since they don't have a leg to stand on. Most of them have never done a single thing to help anyone other than themselves, and would sooner hide under the nearest rock than face any kind of risk.

Fair enough! I would poo myself in a danger situation, so respect to you.

[Yojimbo]

Fair enough! I would poo myself in a danger situation, so respect to you.

I second that. Vets like SRP and Mike have my highest respect because they risked themselves for the common good.

[MinionZombie]

I second that. Vets like SRP and Mike have my highest respect because they risked themselves for the common good.
Indeed, it's not a job I'd wanna do either. It really makes you wonder how all those men coped during WW2 - just ordinary guys, many younger than I am now (and I'm far from old in any sense of the word) and they were shipped off abroad for years on end, not sure if they'd be coming back.

Absolutely unfathomable - and likewise these days, even though it's now only those who choose to become soldiers marching off "over there", it's still an amazing amount of bravery to be heading off into that sort of shit, it really is.

Like when watching the Sky 1 series "Ross Kemp In Afghanistan/Return to Afghanistan" - just seeing what our boys do over there is incredible. The constant danger, being bound by the rules of engagement and the enemy using it against them, being surrounded by the enemy, running low on ammo and still battling off a determined enemy in horrid conditions - it defies belief almost - so, indeed, massive respect to those who go "out there" when asked, and choose to be a solider in the first place.

They're better men than me.

[Yojimbo]

They're better men than me.
I'll second that too, much better than me as well.

Wish I had the guts and the compassion that the men and women of both the US and British armed forces have.

(I would have said "balls and compassion" but I want to be fair to our female soldiers! :lol:)

[MinionZombie]

(I would have said "balls and compassion" but I want to be fair to our female soldiers! :lol:)

They have theoretical balls. :)

[strayrider]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5908534.ece

"AN Islamic cleric, whose supporters led a hate-filled protest against British troops returning from Iraq, has urged his followers to give cash to front-line mujaheddin fighters ... telling his followers to stop spending their money on their families and divert it to Muslim soldiers waging jihad, or holy war ... urging British Muslims to give money to Al-Qaeda-linked insurgents in Iraq."

:eek:

-stray-

[Yojimbo]

They have theoretical balls. :)


Touche! :lol::lol::lol:

[SRP76]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5908534.ece

"AN Islamic cleric, whose supporters led a hate-filled protest against British troops returning from Iraq, has urged his followers to give cash to front-line mujaheddin fighters ... telling his followers to stop spending their money on their families and divert it to Muslim soldiers waging jihad, or holy war ... urging British Muslims to give money to Al-Qaeda-linked insurgents in Iraq."

:eek:

-stray-

Too fucking funny. For years, all we've heard is how "this is a war against Islam! It's a war to stop our religion!" and all that bullshit. Read that paragraph. Now, tell me, who is making this war about religion? Who? Not us, that's for damn sure.

Why does nobody ever publicly calls these fools out on things like this?

[SymphonicX]

argh I fucking hate soldier worship.

They chose that job - I give them just as much respect as I would a bus driver. (Which probably has a higher death rate in London).

Sorry. It's true. You chose to go out there and get your arms, legs, and face blown off - don't expect me to love you for that. You made that choice, regardless of how noble the decision may have been. You're a hired killer...trained to take life...and unfortunately a necessary evil but don't expect me to lap at your boots with respect.

As for the soliders who were drafted in WW1 and WW2, I have the highest regard for - a noble cause that changed the world (well, in ww2 case....ww1 was just a bunch of paranoid leaders rallying against each other purely out of fear) - they didn't ask to go out there but they came back heros.

But since then, sorry there's been no draft, and you didn't need to go. I don't care why you're there and what you have to prove.

[Yojimbo]

I don't care why you're there and what you have to prove.

Symphonic, I usually agree with a lot of what you post, but on this issue I respectfully disagree with you.

I personally know folks who joined specifically because of what happened in 9/11, and they joined out of a patriotic and sincere desire to protect the USA from those who are intent on doing harm to our country.

Whether or not you agree with what is going on in Iraq or Afghanistan, I think that those who are serving and risking their lives over there deserve respect for what they are doing. I don't know that it is entirely fair to dismiss this respect for them as "soldier worship"

[SymphonicX]

Yojimbo :) always nice to hear from you.

Bottom line man: they still "choose" to go...Patriotism is a dangerous and disgusting thing (imo) - which actually just makes the whole thing worse for me. Ugh.

One thing that really gets my goat is English people who refer to the army as "our boys"....just sounds so fucking tabloid...argh...it really winds me up. They're not my boys, theyre a bunch of 19 year old kids hired to kill. Absolutely nothing to do with me and I distance myself from the whole thing.

But there you go, call me a liberal fascist - it's all good...lol...I would rather go to prison than serve in the armed forces, and if there was another draft I'd probably take that as an option.

That's just me though, I've said my bit - I totally respect people's sense of love and what they want to give it to...so I'm all for people supporting the troops, if they want to, it's not something I personally would even think about doing.

[Tricky]

Not everybody in the forces is a "hired killer" as you put it,how about all the admin clerks,logistics staff,drivers,police,engineers etc who are all serving in those war zones?and besides,probably only half of all combat infantry who have served in both war zones have actually fired in anger,COD4 it aint!
My ex girlfriend is currently on the main gate at Basra palace with the RAF police,shes certainly not a "hired killer",shes just doing a job because its a well paid career that offered her far more prospects than working in bars or an office in this dead end part of the UK, and i have a lot of respect for her doing it. The reason there isnt a draft is because these people actually volunteer!some squaddies are admittedly dickheads,but a lot of them are decent lads who deserve at least some respect for doing what they do so you dont have to.

[SymphonicX]

Admin roles, or going out on point in a war zone - I don't care really. You can be a chef as far as I care - just because you are a small cog in a big wheel doesn't make that career choice any less distasteful in my eyes.

And that whole adage of "they're doing it so I don't have to" can only suck the energy from my previous comment of them being a necessary evil - an evil all the same which I have already predisposed myself against being a part of. They aren't doing something for me, they're doing it for whatever silly reasons they have to do it. I'd rather that they didn't exist - the idealist in my would rather than a military wasn't needed by ANY country - as short sighted as that sounds. But there you go. I'm probably better to duck out of this because obviously not everyone feels that way and I certainly don't go out of my way to offend - but yeah, I have zero respect for military, anyone who brandishes a weapon against another human being, and anyone who supports directly or indirectly these people. It just aint me, and never will be...:s

[MinionZombie]

Not everybody in the forces is a "hired killer" as you put it,how about all the admin clerks,logistics staff,drivers,police,engineers etc who are all serving in those war zones?and besides,probably only half of all combat infantry who have served in both war zones have actually fired in anger,COD4 it aint!
My ex girlfriend is currently on the main gate at Basra palace with the RAF police,shes certainly not a "hired killer",shes just doing a job because its a well paid career that offered her far more prospects than working in bars or an office in this dead end part of the UK, and i have a lot of respect for her doing it. The reason there isnt a draft is because these people actually volunteer!some squaddies are admittedly dickheads,but a lot of them are decent lads who deserve at least some respect for doing what they do so you dont have to.
Plus modern warfare doesn't require the sheer volume of recruits that WW1 and WW2 did - in which millions of people died.

The civilian populace at large should be thankful that improved technology, changes in legislation, and most importantly of all - people volunteer for service so we don't have to.

I know I wouldn't want to be anywhere near a place where it's stupidly hot, where you're being shot at all the time, where you might step on a landmine and get blown up, where the rules of engagement constantly hamper your progress, where no matter how much good you do, it almost never gets reported because only the down side ever usually gets shown.

There was an interesting article by Jeremy Clarkson recently, if I can go off topic for a moment, where he was pointing out news coverage of foreign wars and domestic wars - we get reported in depth coverage that's full of statistics of foreign wars, yet we get a surface skim of our own wars to the point where nobody really knows what's going on ... we just know that something's going on, but not a lot more.

Interesting article.

[SymphonicX]

oh man...you just used Clarkson against me...

noooooooo

:D hehehe

[Yojimbo]

I'm probably better to duck out of this because obviously not everyone feels that way and I certainly don't go out of my way to offend - but yeah, I have zero respect for military, anyone who brandishes a weapon against another human being, and anyone who supports directly or indirectly these people. It just aint me, and never will be...:s

What makes democracy great is that folks don't always have to agree, and we can have a healthy dialogue even if we see things from opposite sides of the spectrum.

I know that there are folks who are morally opposed to the millitary, like you, and can understand and respect your beliefs in that regard and those beliefs, even if they are not mine, are legitimate and worthy of an audience. I for one am not offended by your beliefs and welcome hearing your thoughts these issues, even if on this particular issue we are not in complete and total agreement.

(On a side note, totally unrelated to this topic, I just noticed that my caption under my name changed from "Twitching" to "Walking Dead." Not sure when this happened, and I know it's not really an accomplishment of any import, but still I cannot help but feel... oddly proud!! Ok sorry for the digression - just had to share my pseudo achievement with someone!)

[Mike70]

argh I fucking hate soldier worship.

They chose that job - I give them just as much respect as I would a bus driver. (Which probably has a higher death rate in London).

Sorry. It's true. You chose to go out there and get your arms, legs, and face blown off - don't expect me to love you for that. You made that choice, regardless of how noble the decision may have been. You're a hired killer...trained to take life...and unfortunately a necessary evil but don't expect me to lap at your boots with respect.

As for the soliders who were drafted in WW1 and WW2, I have the highest regard for - a noble cause that changed the world (well, in ww2 case....ww1 was just a bunch of paranoid leaders rallying against each other purely out of fear) - they didn't ask to go out there but they came back heros.

But since then, sorry there's been no draft, and you didn't need to go. I don't care why you're there and what you have to prove.

nice how you qualify this post of yours with a nod to WWII and WWI vets - does that make you feel better?

i am always amused by loud mouthed, pussy ass motherfuckers who run off behind the freedoms and civil liberties that others choose to risk their lives to guarantee.

i take serious fucking exception to the notion of soldiers as "hired killers." your use of the phrase just shows how very little you actually know about the military, civic militarism and the military's place in western society. no one is asking for boot lapping but not respecting people who are willing to lay it all down on the line for people who aren't brave, noble or strong enough to do the same is the height of ignorance.

you ought to be fucking ashamed of yourself.

[Yojimbo]

The civilian populace at large should be thankful that improved technology, changes in legislation, and most importantly of all - people volunteer for service so we don't have to.

Again, in total agreement. Folks like Mike and SRP have my deepest gratitude for volunteering to risk their asses. I say so not only because they are protecting our country, but also because admittedly I don't in my middle age have the desire - or the nuts and discipline- to leave my home, wife, family and flushing toilets and other domestic conveniences to face a bunch of psuedo-jihadists and lunatic true believers bent on doing me great bodily harm.

And what if Mike and SRP and our other veteran brothers and sisters did not choose to volunteer to serve? Our respective governments would still feel a need for millitary response, and I venture to guess that a full scale draft would be inevitably be instituted, at which time I am certain that regular civilians like myself would be required to serve. So because of the sacrifices which these volunteers are willing to make, I get to sleep in a warm bed next to my wife every night rather than having to risk getting blown up or shot. (Well, I live in Los Angeles which is not necessarily a violence/bullet free environment but by no stretch of the imagination is it Darfur or Kandahar)

So Mike and SRP, and to all veterans, I again would like to personally thank you for affording me the opportunity to continue my uneventful life as a civilian. Your sacrifices make my life as a civilian possible, and whether or not I agree with the political rhetoric that has our nation involved in our current conflicts does not change the fact that I and my fellow civilians owe you a big-ass debt and our highest respect.

[SymphonicX]

nice how you qualify this post of yours with a nod to WWII and WWI vets - does that make you feel better?

i am always amused by loud mouthed, pussy ass motherfuckers who run off behind the freedoms and civil liberties that others choose to risk their lives to guarantee.

i take serious fucking exception to the notion of soldiers as "hired killers." your use of the phrase just shows how very little you actually know about the military, civic militarism and the military's place in western society. no one is asking for boot lapping but not respecting people who are willing to lay it all down on the line for people who aren't brave, noble or strong enough to do the same is the height of ignorance.

you ought to be fucking ashamed of yourself.

Bah...I'd say the same to you my friend but as I said, I don't go out of my way to offend and have also mentioned that yeah, your opinion and views are cool by me.

However...if someone pays me to fire a weapon at someone, I'm a hired killer. That may nark you a little bit, but there you go.

I love how you qualify me as ignorant but offer absolutely no contrasting views on why I should see it any other way. Simply claiming I don't know enough about a subject whilst skillfully avoiding actually making a point on the subject is a bit of a shit diversionary tactic.

hey man, good luck with your military career - I wish you all the safety in the world...as I said though, I don't agree with the choice of career and I don't agree with this notion that you're somehow this invincible God that holds some sort of moral highground above me because I haven't bothered to confuse the notion of patriotism with war. It just isn't happening.

I guess part of me should also throw similar viewpoints at any opposing side - those who oppress, fascists etc...they are obviously the problem - and I already said the military is simply a necessary evil - my exact quote - doesn't make it any less evil in my eyes - think of it like putting white tigers into captivity, just because they're poachers threatening them doesn't make the idea of keeping these animals in captivity any more palatable. Although I guess if you apply this notion to the police, you still get a necessary evil.

There seems to be this habit of people worshipping the ground soldiers walk on. You seem to think you instantly deserve this respect and admiration - but i hate to use your own words against you but that's exactly the reason you believe you've been fighting for...to give people the chance to criticise - and yeah, I'm here to offer an alternative view on soldier worship, the bottom line is you as a human being deserves respect for how you treat people, the language you use and the emotions you illicit with your words and actions - I believe police officers to be in exactly the same boat - you may have chose this career out of some noble sense of duty or want to make the world a better place, and whilst on the outside that's admirable, I still believe that you made that choice on your own back and none of these "civil liberties" that people like you like to use as a weapon when it suits you have been threatened, thereby causing you to tool up and go to war, have they? Do you even get a choice anyway? Or do they just ship you out wherever they feel like it to be shot at by illiterates? Bottom line is though, you as a person dictates your own change in the world, not your career choice in a world of military profit and weapons contracts. You've made yourself a small cog in a big, dangerous clock.


And no, there is no respect from me - sorry. But as I said, I wish anyone safety in this career choice, but at the end of the day I just distance myself from anyone who puts themselves and their families through this mainly for political or economic wars.


I truly apologise for offending you - as i said it's not my intention - I give you all the respect in the world for being on this board and challenging someone you disagree with - it is indeed something you believe you've put yourself in the line of fire for, and I understand someone seeming to arbitrarily attack that can be seen as offensive and badly placed - so I do apologise, but I'm not changing my opinion on military forces.

Cheers

[Tricky]

BRITISH TROOPS IN WAR CRIMES HORROR!

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[SymphonicX]

BRITISH TROOPS IN WAR CRIMES HORROR!




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