Meathook Trio Photo

[darth los]

This is just a thought I had when reading through the biggest bad ass thread. The picture of the men with meathooks got me to thinking.


Being a minority myself I'm used to seeing things in a racial context as well. No so much today, but in films and events of that era and such when it was more out in the open. I'm sensitive to the racist back and forth between Cooper and Ben. ( Yes, Blacks and Hispanics can be racist too.)


Now, thinking about the three rednecks in that photo, what do you think was going through Ben's mind? I mean, he obviously heard the dogs, that's what seemed to wake him. From the news reports he new that there were search and destroy squads in the area and he heard the gunshots as well. So all the evidence points toward the fact that he knew humans were in the area.

Now, being in the rural area he was in he had to know what type of people they were. Conventional wisdom dictates that he would be estatic to be rescued, but he looked anything like that. He seemed just as fearful of the rednecks as he did of the ghouls. Again, think of the era we're discussing. German shepards and firehoses were standard fare in dealing with "uppity" blacks so it's no wonder he didn't run out, arms flailing screaming I'm rescued!!"


Now I'm well aware that situations such as these can be interpreted in any number of ways.


Any thoughts on this?





:cool:

[krakenslayer]

This is just a thought I had when reading through the biggest bad ass thread. The picture of the men with meathooks got me to thinking.


Being a minority myself I'm used to seeing things in a racial context as well. No so much today, but in films and events of that era and such when it was more out in the open. I'm sensitive to the racist back and forth between Cooper and Ben. ( Yes, Blacks and Hispanics can be racist too.)


Now, thinking about the three rednecks in that photo, what do you think was going through Ben's mind? I mean, he obviously heard the dogs, that's what seemed to wake him. From the news reports he new that there were search and destroy squads in the area and he heard the gunshots as well. So all the evidence points toward the fact that he knew humans were in the area.

Now, being in the rural area he was in he had to know what type of people they were. Conventional wisdom dictates that he would be estatic to be rescued, but he looked anything like that. He seemed just as fearful of the rednecks as he did of the ghouls. Again, think of the era we're discussing. German shepards and firehoses were standard fare in dealing with "uppity" blacks so it's no wonder he didn't run out, arms flailing screaming I'm rescued!!"


Now I'm well aware that situations such as these can be interpreted in any number of ways.


Any thoughts on this?





:cool:

I see what you're saying. It's like what prejudice is, indirectly, what killed Ben.

[Skippy911sc]

I take it your speaking of 68 version...That being noted, he should have at least yelled or called out. I do not know the trial of prejudice from that perspective, but I think I would have screamed "I'm in here!!!".

[Trin]

Hearing dogs and recalling hours old news reports is a long ways from assuming there's help outside. We know that the cellar has very limited hearing ability of what's going on upstairs, much less what's going on outside. Ben spent the entire night with ghouls literally breaking down the doors trying to get to him. I think the last thing he does is draw attention to himself by shouting. In my opinion he did what any normal person would do. He crept to a window and cautiously looked out. I don't think he knew what was outside at that point. And thus he couldn't look excited about rescuers any more than he could look fearful over rednecks.

The sheriff and redneck crew never do anything to give the impression they would shoot a black man on sight. They didn't seem like gun crazy maniacs who were enjoying it (like the rednecks in Dawn). They just seemed to be doing a job. The sheriff even seemed fairly low key about it all.

Ben, also, did not seem the type to assume racial prejudice. If he were I think it would've been evident in his treatment of Mr. Cooper and the others. But he treated them all with respect and no sign of distrust.

The most controversial scene in my mind from a racial perspective is when Ben belts Barbra and knocks her out, lays her down on the couch, and then loosens her top. A black man hitting a white woman has got to have raised some eyebrows.

[Debbieangel]

Hearing dogs and recalling hours old news reports is a long ways from assuming there's help outside. We know that the cellar has very limited hearing ability of what's going on upstairs, much less what's going on outside. Ben spent the entire night with ghouls literally breaking down the doors trying to get to him. I think the last thing he does is draw attention to himself by shouting. In my opinion he did what any normal person would do. He crept to a window and cautiously looked out. I don't think he knew what was outside at that point. And thus he couldn't look excited about rescuers any more than he could look fearful over rednecks.

The sheriff and redneck crew never do anything to give the impression they would shoot a black man on sight. They didn't seem like gun crazy maniacs who were enjoying it (like the rednecks in Dawn). They just seemed to be doing a job. The sheriff even seemed fairly low key about it all.

Ben, also, did not seem the type to assume racial prejudice. If he were I think it would've been evident in his treatment of Mr. Cooper and the others. But he treated them all with respect and no sign of distrust.

The most controversial scene in my mind from a racial perspective is when Ben belts Barbra and knocks her out, lays her down on the couch, and then loosens her top. A black man hitting a white woman has got to have raised some eyebrows.

That is what I thought to Trin, I couldn't have worded it better myself.
I have another thought tho..look at Ben's face as he walks towards the window. He looks abit not all there if you know what I mean? Imagine a bunch of zombies pounding on a thin door wanting to get at you and no other way out but the door they are pounding on? That would be enough to atleast drive you into a deep deep shock.
As I said when he was walking to the window he doesn't seem all that cautious to me,abit yes, but look he is right out in the open and they get him right between the eyes. I would think since all the boards are knocked down off of the doors and windows he would have approached in a more crouched position. Thats my thoughts anyway.

[darth los]

I take it your speaking of 68 version...That being noted, he should have at least yelled or called out. I do not know the trial of prejudice from that perspective, but I think I would have screamed "I'm in here!!!".

Sorry about that. Yes, it's the 68' version.


That was my whole point. Anyone would have high tailed it to the reinforcements but their presence gave Ben pause. He seemed overly cautious in engaging them when they were supposedly there to save the day. If he was thinking they were there to help, don't you think he would have went to them immediately?

We never know what Ben actually saw but we do know that the man who shot him had him in his sights. There wasn't a big field of vision through the window that he shot ben through so it's safe to assume ben atleast caught a glimpse of them as well.

So he knew with a high probability who was out there yet still was unusually cautious.





:cool:

[Trin]

I think it was cautious in the respect that he didn't go rushing out the front door. He kept the cellar door within sight, only venturing out the minimum distance to get a vantage point to the outside of the house. If you saw me come bounding out of my bedroom at night when I hear in a noise in the house then you'd understand what "not cautious" is. hehe

Your point is good though. Deep shock or simply tired as hell. The man had been fighting for his life all night. I think it's a testament to the acting and directing that they made him appear not fully alert.


That was my whole point. Anyone would have high tailed it to the reinforcements but their presence gave Ben pause. He seemed overly cautious in engaging them when they were supposedly there to save the day. If he was thinking they were there to help, don't you think he would have went to them immediately?

We never know what Ben actually saw but we do know that the man who shot him had him in his sights. There wasn't a big field of vision through the window that he shot ben through so it's safe to assume ben atleast caught a glimpse of them as well.

So he knew with a high probability who was out there yet still was unusually cautious.
I think the real question here is when did Ben know it was a rescue party. Did he know that prior to looking out the window or not. My belief/assumption is that Ben didn't know there was a rescue party until AFTER he looked out the window and that we'll never know what his reaction to that would've been because he got shot before he had time to process the info and react.

I don't remember the scene to that level of detail, but did we get to see Ben's reaction *after* he looked out the window before he was shot? I thought that the last vision of Ben is as he's leaning down to peer out the window. Who is to say that once he sees the men outside his next reaction wouldn't have been to rush out the door?

I'd really like to watch the scene again now. :)

[darth los]

Hearing dogs and recalling hours old news reports is a long ways from assuming there's help outside. We know that the cellar has very limited hearing ability of what's going on upstairs, much less what's going on outside. Ben spent the entire night with ghouls literally breaking down the doors trying to get to him. I think the last thing he does is draw attention to himself by shouting. In my opinion he did what any normal person would do. He crept to a window and cautiously looked out. I don't think he knew what was outside at that point. And thus he couldn't look excited about rescuers any more than he could look fearful over rednecks.

The sheriff and redneck crew never do anything to give the impression they would shoot a black man on sight. They didn't seem like gun crazy maniacs who were enjoying it (like the rednecks in Dawn). They just seemed to be doing a job. The sheriff even seemed fairly low key about it all.

Ben, also, did not seem the type to assume racial prejudice. If he were I think it would've been evident in his treatment of Mr. Cooper and the others. But he treated them all with respect and no sign of distrust.

The most controversial scene in my mind from a racial perspective is when Ben belts Barbra and knocks her out, lays her down on the couch, and then loosens her top. A black man hitting a white woman has got to have raised some eyebrows.



We also witness when Ben hears gunshots go off. So right there we know that HE knows humans are in the area. Because as we all know Zombies don't fire guns. :rolleyes: That doesn't happen until Day of the Dead. lol


Again, I will direct you guys to the era in which the film was made. Distrust of white people was a part of everyday life. Just being a minority, in this case a black man, in the presence of a bunch of cacausian people (rednecks) with guns is reason enough to be frightened for your life.

Just imagine if barbara would have survived and they saw the bruise on her face and got wind of how it got there. Do you think they would have been understanding or threw him on the fire to teach him a lesson?

It is in this enviroment and with this mentality that Ben was proceeding with.

Also, he had been in that basement all night. For him to unbar the door and go outside he had to feel that there was a good reason to do so. Rescue sqad maybe?



:cool:

[DubiousComforts]

I don't remember the scene to that level of detail, but did we get to see Ben's reaction *after* he looked out the window before he was shot? I thought that the last vision of Ben is as he's leaning down to peer out the window. Who is to say that once he sees the men outside his next reaction wouldn't have been to rush out the door?
It's implied that Ben hasn't actually seen the posse before he's shot. As seen through the battered window, he is pointing the rifle as he slowly moves forward and in the next shot, he simply has a cautious expression on his face.

It's also not entirely obvious but the area surrounding the front porch of the farm house is surrounded by large trees which makes it seem like dusk even in daylight. The posse guys are standing off to the side of the front porch; they can see someone moving in the window, but Ben doesn't see them until it's too late.

[Trin]

Okay, so we have dog barks and gunshots. And we don't hear anything actually inside the house. I think that's enough to unbar the cellar door and go have a peek to see what the situation is outside. I don't think it's enough to assume it's a rescue squad. If it were me I'd keep that cellar door close and I'd make as little noise as possible as I assess the situation outside. There could be a rescue squad. Or there could be 1000 ghouls around one guy with a gun and a dog.

I also don't think there's any way Ben could've known it was rednecks with guns based on what he heard prior to looking out the window. So to attribute any mindset to his actions assumes a lot of foreknowledge.

One other point. Assuming that Ben knew it was rednecks with guns, and assuming he was scared for his life based on that - why would he even go as far as the window? Why wouldn't he continue to hide, flee out the back of the house, etc.?

[DubiousComforts]

Or there could be 1000 ghouls around one guy with a gun and a dog.
There was also the helicopter which landed in the field next to the house. There is no way Ben wouldn't have heard it, which is ironic considering the following exchange:

Ben: That girl was screaming. Surely you know what a girl screaming sounds like. Those things don't make any noise. Anybody would know somebody needed help!
Tom: Look, it's kind of hard to know what's going on from down there.

[blind2d]

I think in the end all this just goes to add to the feeling of confusion and irrational fear that would inevitably come with a zombie outbreak. That said, I wouldn't even have looked out the window. Ben is a real man to the end.

[Trin]

Hmmm... helicopter.... yeah, I remember that now that you mention it.

I got nothing. *retreats*

I think I need to rewatch the movie before I comment further. :)

[wayzim]

There was also the helicopter which landed in the field next to the house. There is no way Ben wouldn't have heard it, which is ironic considering the following exchange:

Ben: That girl was screaming. Surely you know what a girl screaming sounds like. Those things don't make any noise. Anybody would know somebody needed help!
Tom: Look, it's kind of hard to know what's going on from down there.

And yet ...

Harry; That racket sounded like the place was being ripped apart … how were we supposed to ...

Ben: You just said it was hard to hear down there. Now you say it sounded like the place was being ripped apart.
You better get your story straight, Mister ...

But still, this is just one of those moments which is open to interpretation, which is why NOTLD 68 still rocks.

Wayne Z

"What had started as the Summer of Love, ended with a Fall which took an already torn national psyche and fed it; bit by bit, to a collective which honored no flag nor philosophy, save one.
As flowers faded before the shortening sun, trees bared themselves to an approaching autumn chill, something stirred on the air. In isolated hamlet, in the narrow alleyways and broad avenues of larger metropolis, awakening to a time when all other things looked toward winter slumber, Dead things walked. "
DeadFall: Fools on The Hill.

[darth los]

I also don't think there's any way Ben could've known it was rednecks with guns based on what he heard prior to looking out the window. So to attribute any mindset to his actions assumes a lot of foreknowledge.

One other point. Assuming that Ben knew it was rednecks with guns, and assuming he was scared for his life based on that - why would he even go as far as the window? Why wouldn't he continue to hide, flee out the back of the house, etc.?



Well, I'd have to contest that statement. From the television reports they watched Ben knew exactly who the search and destroy squads consisted of and that they were indeed making their way through the area. Also, there were multiple gunshots and dog barks in rapid succession which would indicate that there was more than one man and one dog causing it.


And yes, as was previously mentioned there's the helicopter. The noise from that alone would wake the dead !! :rolleyes:





:cool:

[Trin]

Well, I'd have to contest that statement. From the television reports they watched Ben knew exactly who the search and destroy squads consisted of and that they were indeed making their way through the area. Also, there were multiple gunshots and dog barks in rapid succession which would indicate that there was more than one man and one dog causing it.So let's assume all that is true. Prior to leaving the cellar he knew it was a rescue party. He knew it was rednecks. He knew they were anti-black. Let's further assume that he was afraid of the rednecks because he was a black man, as you've hypothesized.

Why did he come out at all? Why did he put himself in danger by exposing his head? Why didn't he immediately head to the back door and try to flee the opposite direction?

[triste realtà]

This thread has me thinking there's an anti-city theme to the dead movies. The city folk are locked inside bickering ("What have we done to ourselves?"), waiting for someone to come save them, while the country folk are taking care of business or surviving on the road like the Pagans.

Then again the lead in Night was written for a trucker, unless it was changed during filming. I should probably read the script on the DVD to see.

When I see the ending of Night, it's like peace at last and all the bickering is finally over. Ghouls ain't gonna drag themselves into a big pile to be burnt, you know.

[Debbieangel]

So let's assume all that is true. Prior to leaving the cellar he knew it was a rescue party. He knew it was rednecks. He knew they were anti-black. Let's further assume that he was afraid of the rednecks because he was a black man, as you've hypothesized.

Why did he come out at all? Why did he put himself in danger by exposing his head? Why didn't he immediately head to the back door and try to flee the opposite direction?

There is my argument..I said about Ben being in shock. I still stand by that why would he come out of the cellar and go near the window like that especially with all the shooting going on outside?
Another thing,dont you think all that racist crap would go out the window I mean really they are fighting for their lives. Why would they care if a person was black/white/Latino/Asian etc...? Any living person would be hopefully an ally? As for the rednecks they weren't rednecks. They were just people trying to cope with the zombies not out having a good time.
edit: by racist crap I am meaning"racist" hatred would be gone.

[clanglee]

This is a case of the over-analyzation of GAR's movies. I am sure that scene was shot in all innocence with NO attempt at a racial statement. But this could be read into the scene, sure. I could also imagine that it is a statement about the real and present dangers of agorophobia. Ben was scared to go outside, and so got shot. Or paronoia. . Ben believed the men were not to be trusted and therefore, in his caution, caused his own demise.

More likely the scene was meant as shot. Ben heard some noises outside, but not upstairs. He figured it was safe enough to check out. Cautiosly opened the door and crept to the window to have a look outside. (probably to make sure that the house wasn't still surrounded by zombies) When all of a sudden . . . POW. . . .dead.

[MaximusIncredulous]

...probably to make sure that the house wasn't still surrounded by zombies...

I think that's the whole reason for his slow movements in the house. Just a few hours before the house was filled with living dead. Ben probably felt that a few may have lingered behind and didn't want to run smack dab into a bunch of them with no ammo.

[MoonSylver]

This is a case of the over-analyzation of GAR's movies. I am sure that scene was shot in all innocence with NO attempt at a racial statement. But this could be read into the scene, sure. I could also imagine that it is a statement about the real and present dangers of agorophobia. Ben was scared to go outside, and so got shot. Or paronoia. . Ben believed the men were not to be trusted and therefore, in his caution, caused his own demise.

More likely the scene was meant as shot. Ben heard some noises outside, but not upstairs. He figured it was safe enough to check out. Cautiosly opened the door and crept to the window to have a look outside. (probably to make sure that the house wasn't still surrounded by zombies) When all of a sudden . . . POW. . . .dead.

Yep, IIRC GAR had said the rationale behind the ending was to show the kind of accidents that would happen, when a heavily armed amateur posse is roaming the country side blasting everything that moves.

What's cool though is that you CAN read that subtext into it & it works just fine. That's one of the things I LOVE about NOTLD is there is just so much subtext in the air that it just permeates the whole film. The era, the cast, everything. So much that wasn't intentionally written in, but it's just there, & it works.

[Trin]

More likely the scene was meant as shot. Ben heard some noises outside, but not upstairs. He figured it was safe enough to check out. Cautiosly opened the door and crept to the window to have a look outside. (probably to make sure that the house wasn't still surrounded by zombies) When all of a sudden . . . POW. . . .dead.That's my opinion as well, although I do see the validity of all the opinions expressed so far.

When I first saw Night (shortly before Dawn came out) I was impressed that GAR chose to have the mixed race group operate without any overt overtones of race. Cooper was the equivalent of Archie Bunker at the time, yet the disagreements between Ben and Cooper always remained within the context of the situation.

GAR also avoided racial stereotypes at a time when (as Darth's original post points out) the national opinion was still in question. Ben was clean cut, well dressed, articulate, resourceful, and composed.

All in all a very intelligent movie.

[darth los]

Yep, IIRC GAR had said the rationale behind the ending was to show the kind of accidents that would happen, when a heavily armed amateur posse is roaming the country side blasting everything that moves.

What's cool though is that you CAN read that subtext into it & it works just fine. That's one of the things I LOVE about NOTLD is there is just so much subtext in the air that it just permeates the whole film. The era, the cast, everything. So much that wasn't intentionally written in, but it's just there, & it works.


I think the same can be said about all of GAR'S dead films. IMO, it's not overanalyzing it because the very nature of the man's film making style lends his films/scenes to be interpreted in a myriad of different ways.


For example, I posted a thread about the "police" at the dock that the foursome encounted wile "running". It went on for pages about exactly who Joe Pilato and company actually were and what their intentions were. That scene was interpreted atleast 5 different ways by the people who posted. Or it could have been as straight forward as what we saw in the scene. In either case it's fun to speculate, which as all we really can do. What can I say, it is "Dead Discussion" you know. :p

Who else are we gonna talk about this stuff with anyway? If fellow members are going to bust our chops for this stuff imagine what other poeple would do. (I'm sure we all have stories)






:cool:

[Yojimbo]

I'm sensitive to the racist back and forth between Cooper and Ben.


:cool:


Being a minority myself, I am usually sensitive to racial overtones in film - sometimes to the point of being what some (like Khardis, miss that guy) would have characterized as oversensitive.

I do recall that there was a "audiobook" version of NOLD that came out years ago which pissed me off specifically because they introduced racism into Cooper's character - something that I don't believe was in the original film and therefore I felt that it was a diservice to the character of Cooper.

Try as I might, I cannot recall any racist overtones between Cooper and Ben. I had always thought that the problem between Cooper and Ben was a simple matter of two dudes competing for the same space and authority over the group and was not racially based. Admittedly, it's been a few months since I last viewed my NOLD 68 DVD, so maybe I missed something there, but could you please point out what you were referring to?

Interesting comments here on this thread, BTW. Zombie Heads always impress me with the content of their posts!

[darth los]

Being a minority myself, I am usually sensitive to racial overtones in film - sometimes to the point of being what some (like Khardis, miss that guy) would have characterized as oversensitive.

I do recall that there was a "audiobook" version of NOLD that came out years ago which pissed me off specifically because they introduced racism into Cooper's character - something that I don't believe was in the original film and therefore I felt that it was a diservice to the character of Cooper.

Try as I might, I cannot recall any racist overtones between Cooper and Ben. I had always thought that the problem between Cooper and Ben was a simple matter of two dudes competing for the same space and authority over the group and was not racially based. Admittedly, it's been a few months since I last viewed my NOLD 68 DVD, so maybe I missed something there, but could you please point out what you were referring to?

Interesting comments here on this thread, BTW. Zombie Heads always impress me with the content of their posts!



You're right my friend, everything that I'm building a case on is based on UNDERTONES. There was never anything overt in the film. (Thank Goodness)
As usual with the dead films it's open to interpretation.

However, it is interesting to me the real life issues that come in in discussing these films, which imo, just adds to GAR'S greatness. I mean how many filmakers can produce works that spur debate and discussion for literally years on end? ( Just ask Philly) :D


Also when I mentioned being sensitive to racial topics it was all just to say that it is indeed one way that the dynamic between cooper, Ben and rednecks could have been interpreted. And I must say that up until this point no one can really deny that it is a possibility.

Yeah, adding that book that you're referring to, if they really did add a racist element really did the story an injustice. The genius of the film(s) is that they can be whatever you want them to be.





:cool:

[clanglee]

Darth, I was not trying to bust your chops at all. I agree that GAR's movies leave a lot open to interperatation, but really, all movies do. . or many anyways. I just personally believe that in the case of night, the intent was just what is seen. Sometime a spade is just a spade (card reference, not racist)

These movies of George's do allow our imaginations to go wild and read new things into each watching. Which is great, but also dangerous, because IMO that kind of subtext searching is what is turning George away from writing and directing a good movie and turning him towards making the "subtext" laden average material that we are getting nowadays from him.

Just sort of a personal spur for me. . .sorry.

[darth los]

Darth, I was not trying to bust your chops at all. I agree that GAR's movies leave a lot open to interperatation, but really, all movies do. . or many anyways. I just personally believe that in the case of night, the intent was just what is seen. Sometime a spade is just a spade (card reference, not racist)

These movies of George's do allow our imaginations to go wild and read new things into each watching. Which is great, but also dangerous, because IMO that kind of subtext searching is what is turning George away from writing and directing a good movie and turning him towards making the "subtext" laden average material that we are getting nowadays from him.

Just sort of a personal spur for me. . .sorry.


I think that's just the man's style. He has never been too particular about details or backstory in his dead films. Oh yeah, he might throw a fun fact out there about a character or two now and then but the bulk of a particular character's life story is never touched upon.


It's like an abstract peice of art. Different pairs of eyes are going to interpret it differently as is the case here. And there is really no wrong answer because the trilogy was not so heavy handed delivering the respective messages GAR wanted as we saw in Land and Diary. Ever wonder why we don't speculate nearly as much on those two films? Because very little is left open for interpretation and thhus leaves little room to pick them apart. Imo, that leaves very little replay value.





:cool:

[AcesandEights]

You're right my friend, everything that I'm building a case on is based on UNDERTONES. There was never anything overt in the film. (Thank Goodness)

Ok, so if you're saying that there is a subtext there, whether intentional or not, that lends itself to people viewing race as a relevant issue at various points of the film, then I agree with you. I think given the time the film was made and the presence of certain factors (circumstances and actions characters are driven to etc.) that it's a completely fair statement.

After all, they weren't making this movie in a vacuum.

[darth los]

Ok, so if you're saying that there is a subtext there, whether intentional or not, that lends itself to people viewing race as a relevant issue at various points of the film, then I agree with you. I think given the time the film was made and the presence of certain factors (circumstances and actions characters are driven to etc.) that it's a completely fair statement.

After all, they weren't making this movie in a vacuum.


Exactly. We may not feel it today, but at the time there were no bigger issues than Race/Vietnam. I think we would be negligent as students of film/history to ignore that. (I'm not saying that we are )


Not that there was anything racial there but even if it wasn't said it might have been just under the surface.

No one here thinks that Cooper would have been embarassed to have Ben Boss him around in front of everyone, including his wife and kids? Or perhaps the resistance Cooper had to every idea that ben had was because it was coming from a black man? Let's not forget Ben says it from the beginning. "You can be boss down there, i'm Boss up here.

You could even take it a step further and question Cooper's motivation for wanting to take Barbara down stairs with him. He obviously knew she and Ben had met and banded together. Think about it. Did Cooper seem that altruistic to you? He didn't even seem to care about his family much (although the stress from the current situation could have made him act abnormally) yet he was so concerned about this woman now, yet minutes earlier he heard her screaming for help and would have let her get devoured. What's the difference? He knew that she was up there with a black man.


Now to be clear I don't think that it's very likely that this was the case. But this is just to illustrate that there can be different interpretations. It's kind of like some people's religion. No matter how ridiculous or far fetched it may sound there still the hurdle of proving them wrong, which is next to impossible, which is the case here.

Also, whether race is a relevant issue depends on the person watching the scene. It depends on the life experiences that they've had. If you've repeatedly been the victim of racism then you're going tose life through that prism.





:cool:

[clanglee]

I respect your vision and interpertation of the movie. It is your right. Not the intent of the film I believe, but as you said, it is open to interpretation. I would be more willing to see that if the actors attempted to convey ANY kind of racial tension or even awareness.

[Trin]

And I must say that up until this point no one can really deny that it is a possibility.


But this is just to illustrate that there can be different interpretations. It's kind of like some people's religion. No matter how ridiculous or far fetched it may sound there still the hurdle of proving them wrong, which is next to impossible, which is the case here.
I have to say, I'm struggling a bit with these statements. In my mind there's nothing that says that one person must accept another person's interpretation as a valid possibility simply because it cannot be directly disproved. If that were the case we'd all be forced to acknowledge the possibility that Land might come before Day.

Interpretation, like opinion, is all subjective, and as much as we'd like everyone to be open minded, at some level people have the right to say, "Nope, I'm just not buying it."

This forum is great in that by and large there is always respect for differing interprations even if at the end of the day there's a lot of "I'm just not buying it."

With respect to the subject matter, I think the debate has switched a bit from the original post to now. I do see a possibility that the Ben/Cooper interactions had some racial influences. As a few have said previously, it's purely an undertone - nothing overt. But I could see how Cooper especially might've been more amenable to Ben's ideas had Ben been white. I would personally not interpret it that way, but I recognize the possibility.

As for Ben's actions at the end of the movie being racially influenced, I've got to say "I'm just not buying it" on that front. But I respect any dissenting interpretation.

[MoonSylver]

Well said Trin. What I love about NOTLD is that you CAN interpret it this way, it's not too much of a stretch, it's still valid in or out of that context, & it works.

I, like you, at the end of the day do not necessarily buy the race issue between Ben & Harry, or in the ending, HOWEVER, I AM entertained by the POSSIBILITY, entertained by looking at the movie from that angle as well. It's like seeing the same movie from a different perspective, almost making it a different movie.

[darth los]

I have to say, I'm struggling a bit with these statements. In my mind there's nothing that says that one person must accept another person's interpretation as a valid possibility simply because it cannot be directly disproved. If that were the case we'd all be forced to acknowledge the possibility that Land might come before Day.

Interpretation, like opinion, is all subjective, and as much as we'd like everyone to be open minded, at some level people have the right to say, "Nope, I'm just not buying it."

This forum is great in that by and large there is always respect for differing interprations even if at the end of the day there's a lot of "I'm just not buying it."

With respect to the subject matter, I think the debate has switched a bit from the original post to now. I do see a possibility that the Ben/Cooper interactions had some racial influences. As a few have said previously, it's purely an undertone - nothing overt. But I could see how Cooper especially might've been more amenable to Ben's ideas had Ben been white. I would personally not interpret it that way, but I recognize the possibility.

As for Ben's actions at the end of the movie being racially influenced, I've got to say "I'm just not buying it" on that front. But I respect any dissenting interpretation.


Well said Trin. What I love about NOTLD is that you CAN interpret it this way, it's not too much of a stretch, it's still valid in or out of that context, & it works.

I, like you, at the end of the day do not necessarily buy the race issue between Ben & Harry, or in the ending, HOWEVER, I AM entertained by the POSSIBILITY, entertained by looking at the movie from that angle as well. It's like seeing the same movie from a different perspective, almost making it a different movie.



Well, as i stands I think alot of great points were made and it seems as if the thread has run it's course. Not that I believe everything I advocated for in this thread, it was just to bring a different perspective to light that some of us may not have thought of before.



I'll leave it off with a great line (imo) from comedian Dave Chapelle:


He's talking about the mixed history of our country in regards to race relations. He brought up George Washington and made 2 very interesting observations. That He was the "Father of our country" and at the same time he owned slaves. So he hypothesizes what it would be like traveling back in time with one of his white friends, both of them stepping out of the time machine and his friend saying:

"Look Dave, there George Washington, the Father of this great Nation!!"

Dave Replies" LOOK OUT, iT'S GEORGE WASHINGTON! RUN!!"

And they'd both be right.





:cool:

[Trin]

ROFL - Well said, both you and Dave Chapelle.

Agreed 100%. :)