Herds?

[Andy]

Id actually never thought about this before i read the walking dead, volume 9 if you guys follow it too, but what do you think of the herd theory?

Basically the theory goes, everytime you make a sound or a noise, imagine a circle radiating out around you a certain distance, every single zombie in that radius hears that sound and begin mindlessly walking towards the source.
Zombies by their nature are very dumb, and they dont get the direction of the sound right everytime, which results in zombies wondering mindlessly in the wrong direction.
Other zombies who see a zombie wondering join it and start walking with it, and more join and more and more, and a thus a herd forms, very dangerous to anyone who encounters it.

So what do you guys think? is this theory possible? Discuss..

[EvilNed]

Something similar is proposed in Zombie Survival Guide, if I'm not mistaken. Once you make a sound, a nearby zombie may hear it, and they give chase and let out a moan, which is then heard by zombies around it, and they also give chase, and so forth, and so forth.

[Andy]

Yeah ive read the zombie survival guide, i was getting more at a herd from the point of view that some zombies, through their own stupidity, will wonder in the wrong direction when they hear a noise and rather than a group heading towards you, which i think we can all agree is possible and happens in most zombie movies, you form a group simply by a zombie wondering the wrong way and more zombies seeing it and joining it instinctively, forming a herd of zombies all wondering aimlessly and following each other until they happen upon another living person.. who can consider himself very unlucky.

[EvilNed]

Definetly. Zombies aren't super smart, and apart from their instinctive knowledge that they know that "something is over there...", I don't think they're like guided missiles that know exactly where you are! Unless you make alot of noises all the time or they can actually see you. Once you get far enough away from them they'd probably still keep on walking in the direction they THINK you're going.

[SRP76]

Id actually never thought about this before i read the walking dead, volume 9 if you guys follow it too, but what do you think of the herd theory?

Basically the theory goes, everytime you make a sound or a noise, imagine a circle radiating out around you a certain distance, every single zombie in that radius hears that sound and begin mindlessly walking towards the source.
Zombies by their nature are very dumb, and they dont get the direction of the sound right everytime, which results in zombies wondering mindlessly in the wrong direction.
Other zombies who see a zombie wondering join it and start walking with it, and more join and more and more, and a thus a herd forms, very dangerous to anyone who encounters it.

So what do you guys think? is this theory possible? Discuss..

I wouldn't call that "theory" so much as "common sense". Zombies don't ignore the sound of food. So of course all the zombies that hear something all converge on the sound. And naturally whenever a straggler encounters a large group, it would join the group in going wherever they're going. Just like any other creature. Because at the end of the day, they're all pursuing the same food source.

[AcesandEights]

I think it makes sense within the context. Yes. I also really like the way it is explained in Walking Dead (further elaboration occurs after volume 9 in conversation between characters, but I'll leave those detail out for those who have not read that far).

[Andy]

I wouldn't call that "theory" so much as "common sense". Zombies don't ignore the sound of food. So of course all the zombies that hear something all converge on the sound. And naturally whenever a straggler encounters a large group, it would join the group in going wherever they're going. Just like any other creature. Because at the end of the day, they're all pursuing the same food source.
No no again, you misunderstand me, im not talking about zombies converging on sound.. that is just common sense.. im talking about when zombies hear a sound but dont know which direction it came from or mistake it for different direction, the the group effect takes in and you get a herd of zombies randomly moving about, as far as im aware this has never crept up in a movie.. Someone who has read volume 9 of the walking dead help me out here!

[capncnut]

I think what Andrew is hinting at is that if one was to throw an empty can of coke in a random direction, the zombie(s) will detect the noise but may not know which direction the sound originated from. This would indeed lead to a herd of zombs bowling about aimlessly in different directions, bumping into each other and acting like a bunch of all-round f**k up's.

I've not read issue nine, btw. :D

[AcesandEights]

im talking about when zombies hear a sound but dont know which direction it came from or mistake it for different direction, the the group effect takes in and you get a herd of zombies randomly moving about, as far as im aware this has never crept up in a movie..

This is the way I explain it (if I'm picking up on what you're looking to elaborate on): If you have one zombie notice something, or feel that it perceives something it considers of note (sound, movement, scent, a juicy living person sprinting away behind some bushes etc.), other zombies may notice the first zombie seems 'intent' (for a zombie) on something and follow that zombie, starting a cascade effect of zombies 'flocking' towards the same point, area or goal (i.e. get inside that farm house).

Not all zombies would pick up on the cue (some would have their own cues they noticed pulling them in other directions), but some would and those would mean more would and then more till you have part of the original crowd of zombies moving in a herd-like fashion.

If that's what you mean, Andy, then I agree that it would be a good example of herd-like behavior.

[Andy]

Your half onto it, what im trying to propose is that one zombie hears a noise in the distance, it gets up and starts walking.. might be the right direction might not... another zombie see's it and acting on instinct, it follows it. then another, and another, and another, eventually you have a 'herd' all moving together in one direction, just following each other, the memory of the noise that started it is forgotten now and the original zombie is just following the rest of the group. will the move endlessly or will they will dispearse eventually?

Thats my question.. or as a example, when Miguel shouts on the bullhorn at the start of day, and then all the zombies flock towards him and they run to the helicopter and fly off back to safety, what do those zombies do then? do you beleive they just dispease again or do you think they endless keep walking in the direction the helicopter went?

[AcesandEights]

will they move endlessly or will they will dispearse eventually?


Good question. I think it would be highly circumstantial. As time passed by and nothing of note happened it could be that numbers might start to peel off, distracted by things they sense and confuse as possible prey items. Add to that environmental factors that might act to separate or confuse the zombies as to the movement of such a herd (such as rough terrain, tight cityscapes packed w/ rubble, forest, fog and blinding rain) and you might see such a herd start to breakdown as individuals go off to 'pick their nose in the corner', as it were.

It's all just guess work, but I think a herd-like behavior is feasible, just as factors that would act to break down a 'herd'.

[Trin]

In Night the zombies that were breaking into the farmhouse at some point must have dispersed or moved on. It might have been that they all stayed as a group banging on the cellar door until the noise outside drew them away, and then the sheriff and folks encountered them as a group. Dunno.

In Day, we don't know what the zombies did after the helicopter left, but we know they were spread out and unorganized before it landed.

In Land the zombies in Uniontown had dispersed and gotten back to what they were doing in their former lives.

Also in Land the zombies moving into the city spread out like ants. They didn't all follow the lead of the guy in front of them. Of course, they were "thinking" zombies by that point.

Slightly off topic, but if you've ever played LOTD:Road to Fiddler's Green computer game, the Last Man mod, you get to be a player zombie in that. Sometimes, when there is only one or two humans left, one player zombie sees another player zombie bashing at a door. Then the second player zombie (thinking the first one knows someone is behind it) starts bashing at the door too. Then someone else sees two player zombies bashing at a door. Pretty soon the whole thing snowballs into ALL the player zombies bashing at the same door. The door breaks down and it's an empty room. Hilarious.

Proof once again that the zombies are us.

[SRP76]

The zombies at the mall showed no sign of moving on. They had already grouped at the mall before anybody even got there, and stayed.

Unless something else comes along to get a zombie's attention, why would they disperse? They'd just keep on with what they're doing, endlessly.

[Thorn]

I think the herd behavior is highly likely in certain circumstances, a sound or action draws a zombies attention she picks up a following. The sound goes away some zombies continue in a group and move towards another sound, or idea following "each other" around. Still other zombies split off from the pack to return to where and what they were about before, while others continue on in septum towards the initial draw.

I think all answers are possible and correct and can co-exist side by side with each other, and in fact I personally have ever reason to feel that they would based on human nature and retained memory.

[darth los]

I wish that a movie would get made tha finally adresses alot of the minutia we debate here instead rehashing the same old start of the outbreak/what the hell do we do now scenario. That's been done to death.

I mean how many films do we need where the it takes the protagonists half the movie to figure out that it takes a shot in the head to kill them and whether or not bites bring you back? Can we get some new ground covered here please? :annoyed:

With all the faults we find with Gar's latest works atleast he shows us what the world is like years into the outbreak and gives us insight into ghoul's behavior patterns.





:cool:

[Trin]

With all the faults we find with Gar's latest works atleast he shows us what the world is like years into the outbreak and gives us insight into ghoul's behavior patterns.
Yeah, like they take the whole movie to figure out how to shoot them in the head (ala military in Land) while the ghouls figure out how to shoot the humans in half the movie.

We're going the wrong direction here folks!!!! :rant:

[strayrider]

Didn't Roger and Peter play on the herd theory we they pulled the "Old Okey Doke" in the mall?

Land of the Dead showed us the "herd" on a grand scale. (one thing I've always wondered about this is why, with Fiddler's Green looming like a beacon in the distance as seen from Union Town, didn't the ghouls head there long before Riley's raid?)
:D

-stray-

[Andy]

Didn't Roger and Peter play on the herd theory we they pulled the "Old Okey Doke" in the mall?

Land of the Dead showed us the "herd" on a grand scale. (one thing I've always wondered about this is why, with Fiddler's Green looming like a beacon in the distance as seen from Union Town, didn't the ghouls head there long before Riley's raid?)
:D

-stray-

Partially right but not entirely, i think you missed the point of what im saying.. Peter and Roger made alot of noise to get zombies to come to them, all the zombies in the area heard it and went, and then they ran to the other entrance and slipped out quietly.

Land is complete filth so im not even gonna go there..

But the herd theory is more about zombies wondering aimlessly in large groups, not being drawn to a noise. The theory (once again) and in very simple terms this time.

1. Zombie hears sound.
2. Zombie begins shambling towards sound to "investigate".
3. Second Zombie notices first Zombie shambling and joins it.
4. Third zombie Notices first and Second shambling together and joins them.
5. Repeat previous steps until you have a large group, for example 20+ zombies.
6. First Zombie has forgotten what sound was or where it came from and thus follows the rest of the group which were following it.
7. You have a herd of zombies all shambling together, now aimlessly.

Read steps 6. and 7. closely.. this is the key part of the herd theory and why im not just saying zombies wonder towards sound.

Now you have a grasp of the theory, you can look at the question, which is would the "herd" continue to follow each other endlessly, or would they slowly disapate and lose interest in following the group?

Zombies, by the their nature, follow instinct. we are told they are nothing more than motorized instinct and human instinct says follow the group, safety in numbers, so it makes sense to me that this would occur, but then why is it never addressed in any zombie movie? No-one ever encounters a large "herd" of zombies all moving together..

[Thorn]

human instinct says follow the group, safety in numbers, so it makes sense to me that this would occur, but then why is it never addressed in any zombie movie? No-one ever encounters a large "herd" of zombies all moving together..

This is very much true and why I feel the herd theory holds true, and what I was getting at as well. Thank you for summing it up better than I had. Humans instinctively band together so I think zombies would too for the most part.

In life you have some loners, and I think this would be the case in zombie-ville also but for the most part aimless herds or hordes of zombies roaming around not certain of what they are doing other than following each others directionless lead is quite plausible.

[AcesandEights]

1. Zombie hears sound.
2. Zombie begins shambling towards sound to "investigate".
3. Second Zombie notices first Zombie shambling and joins it.
4. Third zombie Notices first and Second shambling together and joins them.
5. Repeat previous steps until you have a large group, for example 20+ zombies.
6. First Zombie has forgotten what sound was or where it came from and thus follows the rest of the group which were following it.
7. You have a herd of zombies all shambling together, now aimlessly.

Read steps 6. and 7. closely.. this is the key part of the herd theory and why im not just saying zombies wonder towards sound.



Excellent way of describing it, Andy.

Now, I'm not saying that herds would be the dominant zombie behavior that would be displayed in my ideal fictional universe, but it would definitely have a place in it. Keep in mind there would be a lot of idle groups in and about areas and a lot of sole wanderers, as well.

I think part of the scary thing about zombies can be seeing patterns in their behavior, but never truly being able to account for all possibilities and the patterns never completely holding up across the entirety of all zombies someone might run into. Thus, you might be able to depend on the zombies behavior in some respects, but the minute you take them for granted and assume they are a known quantity, you risk getting bit (literally) in the ass.

[Trin]

I don't think it would happen that way. I think the zombie attention span is too low. The steps make sense to get a large group moving together, but it's not sustainable. Eventually, without a discernible food goal, they disperse to their own distractions.

One thing I find noteworthy. The moan a zombie emits when it hears/sees/detects food (humans) seems to be a distinct sound to other zombies. Zombies can make all the noise they want and the other zombies simply ignore them, but the food moan always gets the other zombie's attention.

With that in mind, after the initial group starts moving I'd think at least one or some of them must continue to discern a food source (whether by sound, sight, smell, etc.) and keep making that food moan to keep the zombies grouped. Like us, they'll only pay attention to something so long as it's interesting.

Without that they'll revert to their own distractions, as we see evidenced in Dawn (where the zombies are all milling about the mall prior to detecting the survivors), in Day (where the zombies are not grouped in the city), and even in the "complete filth" (ROFL) of Land where the zombies are all doing their own thing in Uniontown.

[BillyRay]

I've seen cows do the same exact thing.

@#$%-ing creepy....

[AcesandEights]

I've seen cows do the same exact thing.

@#$%-ing creepy....

If only zeds were as tasty...and not going to kill/infect you when you ate them ;)

[Debbieangel]

I don't think it would happen that way. I think the zombie attention span is too low. The steps make sense to get a large group moving together, but it's not sustainable. Eventually, without a discernible food goal, they disperse to their own distractions.

One thing I find noteworthy. The moan a zombie emits when it hears/sees/detects food (humans) seems to be a distinct sound to other zombies. Zombies can make all the noise they want and the other zombies simply ignore them, but the food moan always gets the other zombie's attention.

With that in mind, after the initial group starts moving I'd think at least one or some of them must continue to discern a food source (whether by sound, sight, smell, etc.) and keep making that food moan to keep the zombies grouped. Like us, they'll only pay attention to something so long as it's interesting.

Without that they'll revert to their own distractions, as we see evidenced in Dawn (where the zombies are all milling about the mall prior to detecting the survivors), in Day (where the zombies are not grouped in the city), and even in the "complete filth" (ROFL) of Land where the zombies are all doing their own thing in Uniontown.

Agreed!
My thoughts exactly, I think they might "herd" together thinking there is food where the other zombs are but their tension span being what it is they would lose interest and go away after they find out that their feast for the night isn't available.
Even after awhile the "skyflowers" in Land lost their interest, so, "herding" together I wouldn't think so unless there is fresh meat.

[darth los]

If only zeds were as tasty...and not going to kill/infect you when you ate them ;)


Dude, gotta be one of my favorite sigs ever!! :D



Yeah, like they take the whole movie to figure out how to shoot them in the head (ala military in Land) while the ghouls figure out how to shoot the humans in half the movie.

We're going the wrong direction here folks!!!! :rant:


I never put two and two together on that since I almost never watch land , but ya, you're right!! :lol:



Didn't Roger and Peter play on the herd theory we they pulled the "Old Okey Doke" in the mall?

Land of the Dead showed us the "herd" on a grand scale. (one thing I've always wondered about this is why, with Fiddler's Green looming like a beacon in the distance as seen from Union Town, didn't the ghouls head there long before Riley's raid?)
:D

-stray-



Perhaps the spectacle of the green just hypnotized them the way the sky flowers did. :confused:






:cool:

[MoonSylver]

...

I'm sorry Aces...what were you saying...your new sig has me distracted.....:D

[strayrider]

1. Zombie hears sound.
2. Zombie begins shambling towards sound to "investigate".
3. Second Zombie notices first Zombie shambling and joins it.
4. Third zombie Notices first and Second shambling together and joins them.
5. Repeat previous steps until you have a large group, for example 20+ zombies.
6. First Zombie has forgotten what sound was or where it came from and thus follows the rest of the group which were following it.
7. You have a herd of zombies all shambling together, now aimlessly.

Read steps 6. and 7. closely.. this is the key part of the herd theory and why im not just saying zombies wonder towards sound.

Now you have a grasp of the theory, you can look at the question, which is would the "herd" continue to follow each other endlessly, or would they slowly disapate and lose interest in following the group?

Got you. I was going to use this in a story some years back, but never got around to it.

I would venture that it would depend on the size of the herd.

20 or 30 ghouls would probably break up very quickly without something to motivate them to move together.

A "super herd", say one containing 100,000 or more might go on for days, covering miles of distance. Heck, something this size might never break up entirely.

It this what you mean?

:D

-stray-

ps -- it just occured to me that, on the old Caravan of the Dead fiction board, CJ Hopegiver did come up with this idea. If I remember correctly, it involved a massive (numbering in the millions) herd of ghouls moving across Texas and Arizona.

I understand that this "herd" concept is what is happening in "The Walking Dead" as of right now, and Kirkman probably came up with it on his own, but it is certainly not the first time it has been addressed in "print". CJ's idea kept a lot of us entertained "back in the day". ;)

[capncnut]

1. Zombie hears sound.
2. Zombie begins shambling towards sound to "investigate".
3. Second Zombie notices first Zombie shambling and joins it.
4. Third zombie Notices first and Second shambling together and joins them.
5. Repeat previous steps until you have a large group, for example 20+ zombies.
6. First Zombie has forgotten what sound was or where it came from and thus follows the rest of the group which were following it.
7. You have a herd of zombies all shambling together, now aimlessly.
I'm actually amazed Andrew had to point these things out.

[strayrider]

I think that it is possible that the herd would be perpetual if it were of great size.

1. a survivor moves through an area stirring up a group of ghouls. Let's say this takes place on the outskirts of a large city. The survivor moves on, but several hundred "stirred up" ghouls follow, moving in the same general direction (say west).

2. this core group of several hundred will be making noise as it shambles along which will stir up other ghouls in its path, who then rise from their "hidy holes" (as seen in the beginning of "Day") and join in the march. By now, the original group of ghouls (the core) might have lost interest in the survivor that they were pursuing, but they are being held together in a group by others who are joining on the perimeter and basically forcing them to continue to "march" in a westerly direction. By now the core group might number in the 1000s.

3. The core group of several thousand then "brushes up" against a large population center and the noise they make causes the formation of several dozen smaller "core" groups which all begin to move in the direction of the rapidly forming "super herd". The ghouls are now being drawn to themselves, by their own activity, like iron filings to a magnet.

4. By the time that this super herd has moved beyond the small city its numbers has grown to 20, or 30-thousand. The original ghouls (the ones who first went after the survivor) are now insignificant. They have been completely absorbed into the super herd which continues to move west, an unstoppable mass which continually swells and wanes, but continues to move, unable to stop itself ... the ghouls in the center of the herd move because the core itself is moving, the ghouls on the periphery of the herd move because the core is moving ... and the herd grows into the millions, constantly moving, constantly gathering members, constantly shedding members, but never ceasing to exist.

:D

-stray-

[SRP76]

The whole thing could be considered a herd. Depends how "close together" you think zombies have to be to be considered part of the same group.

Think about how we have infested this planet. Taking the entire land area on Earth, and dividing it by the number of zombies, you get 104+ zombies per square mile.

This means, even if they're spaced out evenly, no zombie is more than 500 feet from another zombie. That's not very far. Easily within sight of one another.

Now consider that coverage over the entire planet. No place to run, nowhere to hide. They're everywhere, and close enough to one another. When viewed from high altitude, the whole planet is covered by one "herd".

[EvilNed]

However, don't forget the Russian Far East, for instance, where 7 million people live on a landmass roughly equivalent to that of the United States.

[krakenslayer]

The whole thing could be considered a herd. Depends how "close together" you think zombies have to be to be considered part of the same group.

Think about how we have infested this planet. Taking the entire land area on Earth, and dividing it by the number of zombies, you get 104+ zombies per square mile.

This means, even if they're spaced out evenly, no zombie is more than 500 feet from another zombie. That's not very far. Easily within sight of one another.

Now consider that coverage over the entire planet. No place to run, nowhere to hide. They're everywhere, and close enough to one another. When viewed from high altitude, the whole planet is covered by one "herd".

Excellent post and some very good points.

However, one point I would bring up is that there are a lot of areas on Earth where the human population is far, far higher than 104 per sq. mile, and many places where it are a lot less than that - including parts of Canada, Africa, the USA, Antarctica, Greenland and various parts of Russia and Eurasia where there is no habitation for hundreds of square miles - mainly due to the inhospitable or remote environments there. So 104 per square mile is an average.

Whether or not the zombies would diffuse out to cover the entire planet would depend on several factors including how resistant they are to extremes of temperature, how good they are at crossing rugged terrain, how far they can travel on foot before their legs drop off and their psychology - namely whether they are prone to wander aimlessly or whether they have a tendency to congregate in places they remember from life.

[Cinerary]

I prefer the word congregation over the word "herd". :D