to teach or not to teach...

[Mike70]

let's suppose your enclave survives and years down the road is a thriving little community of farmers and skilled craftsmen (by that i mean blacksmiths, people who can make glass, etc. - you know useful shit). would you try and teach the generations that come after you about the civilization the fell or would you wipe the slate clean in an effort to start over? granted, wiping the slate clean could be hard because the ruins would be all around you but since people, in all probability, wouldn't be traveling very far, it could be done.

i'm torn about this. there is much about our present civilization that is worthy of perservation. but i still don't know. i am a huge middle-earth geek and i'll put this in that sort of analogy: i think the danger of hanging on to the past too much would be that you'd become like the high elves that still live in middle-earth during the 3rd age. you would secret yourself away, sing songs and tell stories of what once was and be caught in a deep nostalgic malasie, never able to get past the idea the world has changed and has changed forever.

thoughts?

[MikePizzoff]

Teaching some aspects would be great. Giving the ideas of war and racism and whatnot... not so great. I'm sure there will be people that disagree with me, but if I were in charge, I'd start a completely pacifistic society, with no class divisions.

[Wooley]

Very interesting idea, one which I'm sure there's no easy answer. I mean, how much of the negative things we humans do is simply part of us, and how much must be taught?

Could one breed hate and racism and such out of the human species through social engineering in these small enclaves? A small society where skin color doesn't matter, where people aren't prudes about what consenting adults choose to do behind closed doors, etc. And what happens when one of them runs into one that hasn't been so engineered? How would this society far if it ran into one that went the opposite way, like a society based on the failed Aryan ideology of the Nazis?

Be interesting to see where this topic leads.

[SRP76]

I'll assume all the zombies are gone, and not coming back. Whatever made them rise is gone forever.

In this case, I'd definitely start educating people. Start by finding the wrecks of libraries, records archives, and so forth - REAL documents. Reproduce and use them as much as possible. We don't want history twisted into legends or biblical myths here.

That way, future generations know their history.

[Skippy911sc]

I'll assume all the zombies are gone, and not coming back. Whatever made them rise is gone forever.

In this case, I'd definitely start educating people. Start by finding the wrecks of libraries, records archives, and so forth - REAL documents. Reproduce and use them as much as possible. We don't want history twisted into legends or biblical myths here.

That way, future generations know their history.

+1 for this...I think if we, as a people, don't learn from the past...we will be doomed to repeat it.

:D

[Trin]

I say teach and learn as much as you can.

Societies rise and fall throughout history. This is no different. Eventually the new society will surpass previous achievements. It's just a matter of how long it'll take. Arm the new society with the information to recognize the mistakes of the past.

You cannot breed violence or racism out of the human race. How would you do it? Kill the children with any unpure tendencies? What if they would've turned out to be perfectly acceptable adults? And what about the perfectly good children that breed hate and violence later in life? How does the pacificistic society reconcile extermination of rogue elements?

[Publius]

I agree with SRP, Skippy, and Trin. Sir Isaac Newton wrote (borrowing a very old metaphor) that if he saw farther than others, it was only because he stood on the shoulders of giants. Civilization has gotten to be where it is by learning from thousands of years of mistakes. If you convince yourself you can start a society from scratch because you know better than everyone who has come before you, you'll just end up starting a society that will repeat a lot of those mistakes.

[sandrock74]

I don't think racism would exist anymore. Humanity would be united in an "us vs. them" mentality. Zombies would be the threat, the menace that everyone unites and works together to eradicate. White, black, yellow...whatever...none of that would mean anything anymore. You would be accepted simply because you were not a zombie!

[Mike70]

I don't think racism would exist anymore. Humanity would be united in an "us vs. them" mentality. Zombies would be the threat, the menace that everyone unites and works together to eradicate. White, black, yellow...whatever...none of that would mean anything anymore. You would be accepted simply because you were not a zombie!

yes that would probably be true in the first years or decades. but what about when the zombie threat fades? maybe going through something so traumatic would change people on a fundamental level. maybe we'd stop grasping after money and power. maybe we'd stop living high without a second thought while others starve in the gutter. then again maybe it wouldn't.

i understand the need to know your history and what your people have been through, suffered and accomplished (for fraks sake i am a classical historian) but there is a cynical side of me that says that people will never really learn a lesson. we are creatures of passion and being driven by passions comes with both good and bad. we can love others, be compassionate to those in pain or who are hungry, merciful to those that deserve it, selfless in the face of a threat to an innocent or loved one but at the same time we are capable of the most brutal acts imaginable. greed, jealousy, hatred and envy go hand in hand with love, mercy, selflessness and compassion. i guess the real question is- would those positive emotions really mean anything at all without their negative counterparts?

sorry if i've gone off on a bit of a tangent but i think the emotional state of people and how much they would be changed by the experience is "central to the condition."

[SRP76]

You cannot eliminate racism and sexism and so forth. Why? Because no, it is NOT something that was learned. It was instinctive. It is based not on education, but on encountering someone who is different from you.

Once upon a time, there was a group of white guys. Just learned to walked upright. They were fine. But, one day, a brown guy came strolling over the ridge. One white guy looked to another, pointed to the brown guy, and said, "Hey Grog, what the fuck is that?" - and that's how it began. And it WILL begin again, the same way. Someone will always instinctively dislike or mistrust someone simply because they're different.

Only two ways can this be solved:

1. Everybody becomes the same. Not possible. Why? Because you need both males and females to continue the species.

2. Everyone becomes both blind and deaf, so nobody can tell if anyone's different. This could work, but it would be a real pain in the ass when you want to reproduce. You'd have to stumble around and grab the crotch of every person you encounter, to see if they're "compatible".

Neither can really be done. So, your new society will just have to live with these things.

[Thorn]

I think you need to remember the past and I would want to teach the future generations about it, not all of it was bad and you learn from your mistakes and are better for it.

As for racism not being taught I am not sold on that concept. I was not born hating anyone.

[Trin]

Man has a way of pulling together to confront a common threat, and just as quickly breaking back out to little groups when the threat has passed.

Look at religion. How many churches have vast infighting within the same group of people who believe (in a gross sense) the same thing. But threaten their church with a completely different religion looking to move in and they unite pretty fast. Take away that threat and they go back to infighting.

It's the same way with race (WWI and WWII), and would be the same with zombies. We only pull together when as a group we perceive a greater threat to our way of life.

I agree with SRP (right up to the walking around groping crotches part). Man feels friction over our differences and is drawn together based on our similarities.

[AcesandEights]

I say teach and learn as much as you can.

Societies rise and fall throughout history. This is no different. Eventually the new society will surpass previous achievements. It's just a matter of how long it'll take. Arm the new society with the information to recognize the mistakes of the past.

You cannot breed violence or racism out of the human race. How would you do it? Kill the children with any unpure tendencies? What if they would've turned out to be perfectly acceptable adults? And what about the perfectly good children that breed hate and violence later in life? How does the pacificistic society reconcile extermination of rogue elements?

Excellent post and a more eloquent and to the point summation of how I feel on the subject.

[Trencher]

I allways found the year zero mentality to be arrogant to the extreme.
Without trying to understand the reasons behind racisim, agression, ignorace and the desire to dominate others you can never create an enlightend society. Evil people will allways find something that is diffrent with somebody so that they have an exuse to step on them. If you think that we are brought into this world as some kind of saint like angel figure and only hate because we are taught it I suggest you getting some kids, that way you will see that things are not so clear cut.
If the boards "classical historians" botherd to read an actual history book you would see that the reasons behind evil behaviour is humanitys beastly nature not that they know the alphabet.

[Wyldwraith]

Well,
I'm a big believer in learning from one's mistakes, and making choices in the future that are better than the ones I made in the past because I apply what I learn. So I guess that means I believe the same principle should be applied to a new society as a whole.

I firmly believe that mistrust, aggression, the potential for violence and hatred are all inborn. Just as the capacity for trust, cooperation, tolerance and love are. These things basic to the human condition are then emphasized or dismissed based on the influence of our upbringing and other life experiences.

Abandoning the knowledge of the previous societies would be a grave mistake. The problems it might POSTPONE (NOT delay) are outweighed by the problems ignorance always causes.

In the absence of knowledge, superstition and zealotry become common.
That, and the fact it would be the grossest sort of disrespect to those who came before to arrogantly presume that we of the present have the right to censor/edit the very knowledge, ideals and accomplishments they struggled, and in many many cases, gave their lives to secure.

It takes a civilization decades or centuries to progress comprehensively, but it only takes a relatively tiny minority of extremists to destroy all that progress.

The building and incremental expansion of the Library at Alexandria versus it being burned down. The incredible developments in the arts (painting, sculpture and the written word) versus incidents like the Bonfire of the Vanities. Etc etc etc. All the knowledge, all the increased understanding of the human condition, and the expressions of that understanding. All gone in minutes.

Why choose to carry forward one of the most destructive behaviors of the old civilization into the new? Don't tell me it isn't the same thing. Preventing the use and proliferation of books amounts to the same thing as burning them. Hiding away the great works of art amounts to a new Bonfire.

Turning away from the too-rare lights that illuminate the potential of mankind would be a tragedy of epic proportions.

[Yojimbo]

I am not sold on the idea that racisim is hard wired into our brains, so I have faith that- given the proper community and environment - that a society free of racisim could come about.

On education: I do think it would be extremely important for the children of the new society to receive a decent education that goes beyond just simple knowledge needed to subsist such as hunting, foraging, farming, butchering, basic gunsmithing & auto repair, food preparation, but an education that includes ensuring that the population be literate, be aware of history, solid mathematics, basic chemistry, etc. To go the opposite route, I fear, would plunge mankind into the dark ages again.

My fear with post-apocalyptic societies is that you would have groups and towns unified under disparate religious or philosophical beliefs. Given the history of society, I think that when this sort of rhetoric becomes part of each enclave's political policy, the potential for conflict between the different collectives becomes more pronounced.

I know of a Methodist church in Hawaii who's property borders land owned by a local Mormon church, and their respective congregations came close to throwing blows over a simple issue of property lines and whether or not a fence that the Methodists had put up had crossed over into the Mormon owned lands. We all know of the issues in the Gaza Strip and Iraq that are sparked from religious differences. Hell, I know of families that have been nearly torn apart because their relative married a person who is not of the family's religious background.

So though I think that racisim could be flushed out of society, I think that it would be impossible to flush religion out of society. In this regard, I believe that entire "My church, my god, right or wrong" concept would eventually cause problems between groups of different backgrounds. Our only hope, therefore, would be that the populations are educated enough to be able to put aside their philosophical differences to work together and settle any differences in opinion that they may have.

[Trencher]

Yojimbo: Racism is sort of a religion, and the same behavoir that creates religious thought creates racism. Both are systems of belief and I think that racsim can not be flushed out by any means only combated by other systems of belief. I did not mean to say that racism was ingraned in the human brain from birth.

[Wyldwraith]

Yojimbo is right,
What he's saying is a more elaborate example of the basic principle I outlined. Ie: The absence of education leads to a corresponding rise in the influence of superstition and ideological zealotry.

Collectives will always find elements in another collective that they distrust/dislike based on differences in both groups. Whether the two populations agree to disagree or launch a crusade/jihad/cleansing versus "the unbelievers" depends entirely on the emphasis each group has placed on legitimate education in their communities.

After all, it's no coincidence that most hotspots of ideology-based conflict, be they racial/religious/sexist in nature correspond to populations with extremely low levels of education. Why would a post-apocalyptic society be any different?

Then there's inherent conflict between "barbaric" and "civilized" societies. The educated population is prone to dehumanizing the less progressive population, while the traditionalist/less advanced population resents the higher quality of life their civilized rivals enjoy, while expressing contempt for the very means that provide that higher quality.

All of this is elementary. Easily understood by anyone with so much as a high school education. Without that education though...what's to stop a carbon-copy repeat of the rise and fall of a New Roman Empire? Tens of thousands more lives destroyed, all because the survivors of the apocalypse doomed themselves to repeating the history they never learned.

[Yojimbo]

Yojimbo: Racism is sort of a religion, and the same behavoir that creates religious thought creates racism. Both are systems of belief and I think that racsim can not be flushed out by any means only combated by other systems of belief. I did not mean to say that racism was ingraned in the human brain from birth.
I hear you, Trencher, and agree with your statement that racism is a sort of religion - it stands to reason since racism is a type of philosophy just as religion is a philosophy. I agree that both are systems of belief. I did not mean to imply that you specifically had said that racism was ingrained in humans from birth, so I apologize if it came off that way.

However, there were a few posts which implied exactly this thought - that racism will never dissappear because it is instinctive and not a learned thought process- and it was this thought that I dispute.

I do feel that if each community groups itself by religious or philosophical belief that it would be inevitable that conflicts would arise that could be as potentially damaging with the same destructive results that would come about from race-based conflict.


The absence of education leads to a corresponding rise in the influence of superstition and ideological zealotry.

Collectives will always find elements in another collective that they distrust/dislike based on differences in both groups. Whether the two populations agree to disagree or launch a crusade/jihad/cleansing versus "the unbelievers" depends entirely on the emphasis each group has placed on legitimate education in their communities.

After all, it's no coincidence that most hotspots of ideology-based conflict, be they racial/religious/sexist in nature correspond to populations with extremely low levels of education.

In total agreement with Wyldwraith's well written statement, which I truncated above. I too believe that the only hope post apocalyptic society would have to reduce conflicts between the enclaves would be enlightenment though education, and along those same lines I believe that enlightenment through eductation is society's only hope to save our pre-apocalyptic world.