French snub royals at D.Day anniversary..

[Tricky]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1188515/D-Day-snub-Queen-Palace-fury-Sarkozy-refuses-invite-royals-65th-Anniversary--Brown-wont-act.html

It seems that sarkozy wants to make the whole D.Day anniversary about sucking up to Barack Obama :mad: although im not much of a royalist myself i do think the queen should have been invited & allowed to lay wreaths in rememberance of the 17,556 british soldiers who died fighting in the Normandy campaign! Sorry to you americans who come on the board,im not aiming this at you personally,but it does make me really angry that in recent years hollywood and the media are constantly playing down the sacrifices Britain made in world war 2 to make it look like the americans won the whole war single handedly,in saving private ryan there wasnt a single Brit soldier seen in the entire film,despite the fact we took 3 of the 5 Normandy beaches with the canadians!In the film U-571 Hollywood made out that it was american forces who captured the enigma machine when it was in fact the Royal navy who captured it before america had even entered the war,and even in the pearl harbour film they had to sneak in a sequence of ben affleck fighting in the battle of britain despite the fact only 10 american volunteers flew in that campaign out of 1,103 fighter pilots!even in the otherwise excellent Band of Brothers series the few brits shown were inept toffs in tanks in the market garden episode!and dont get get me started on computer games which are largely an all american effort
I appreciate that America played an undeniably big part in the final outcome of the war & a lot of sacrifices were made,but it makes a lot of british people angry that our own efforts are largely ignored or americanised & this snub to our head of state at the D.Day anniversary is just the latest incident of it!America isnt to blame for this one though,its the arrogant & ungrateful french this time! You only have to look at the war memorials in every town & village in the country to see how many of our men died in that war

[capncnut]

Well said, Trick. And yeah, while I think the Royals are a bunch of leeching, toffee-nosed prats, they had every right to attend. It's bang out of order, mate.

[Craig]

I think this could be classed as 'a bloody outrage'. I'm not blinded by patriotism and national pride, but when it comes to veterans and war memorials this just saddens me.

[Danny]

jeremy clarkson is now in a coma due to a sarcasm overload.



...or, could you call it a sarcgasm?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/khazrak/drevil.jpg

[kortick]

Is there some reason why the french have taken this
pretty insulting gesture towards england?
Is there some problems between the 2 countries?

And as for france if Bush was still president I think
he would be the one to not get the invite.
So this show of how much the french like obama
means nothing, they can turn and hate him in a second.

But dont be of the assumption that the efforts of the
english in the war are not known by the americans.
There is a cable channel that shows nothing but
WWII stories, and it shows how the english and
americans fought side by side. Hollywood movies
are garbage anyways, but the real stories of the
war are shown regularly.

It is kinda rude not to invite queen. U think that
liberating someones country from nazis would
make u a bit appreciative.

[Neil]

Maybe, they, just like the rest of us, have just realised the Royal Family are just a bunch of individuals born into a life of wealth and power, and don't actually merit this position at all in a modern society?

That said, the Queen lives through WW2 and even stayed on in London when it would have been far safer for her to have left!

[MoonSylver]

The problem w/ the portrayal of the British effort in popular entertainment is due to POV. Everyone usually adepts their own POV, telling their own portion of the story, at the exclusion of everyone elses.

I remember when Heartbreak Ridge was coming out, the Army was ticked because the movie made it look like a Marine effort, when it was mostly Army. But the movie was only focused on that one portion. There have been complaints that black cowboys are not more prominently featured in westerns or featured in WWII films, etc.

(Not to say you don't have a valid point Tricky, as you absolutely do, just pointing out the problem that arises when every one adapts their own POV when telling a much larger story. Exceptionalism creeps in.)


Is there some reason why the french have taken this
pretty insulting gesture towards england?
Is there some problems between the 2 countries?


You could say that...

The French Knight says...

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2007/04/frenchknight-225.jpg

I FAART IN YOUR JEN-ER-AL DI-RECT-SHON!!!

:D;)

[Tricky]

Maybe, they, just like the rest of us, have just realised the Royal Family are just a bunch of individuals born into a life of wealth and power, and don't actually merit this position at all in a modern society?


Regardless of that,she is still the head of the British armed forces by default so its only right that she should be there to commemorate the soldiers who died in the Normandy campaign,i'll be disgusted if they send someone like miliband to represent us there! I just hope Sarkozy & Obama dont treat the remaining British veterans who will definitely be there in person with the same level of ignorance & contempt

@ kortick, the french have always had a bit of a problem with the english & us with them,some of it goes back centuries, such as the battle of agincourt & the napoleonic wars,but the french were also bitter towards us during world war 2 because we abandoned france in 1940 after it was clear the germans had won, & our forces would have been destroyed at dunkirk if we hadnt evacuated back to england. The french expected us to fight to the last man for their country which we couldnt do, and they were ungrateful when we came back with the americans & canadians 4 years later to liberate them,i dont think they like the fact they had to be saved by their old enemy...

[Pógmothóin]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1188515/D-Day-snub-Queen-Palace-fury-Sarkozy-refuses-invite-royals-65th-Anniversary--Brown-wont-act.html

It seems that sarkozy wants to make the whole D.Day anniversary about sucking up to Barack Obama :mad: although im not much of a royalist myself i do think the queen should have been invited & allowed to lay wreaths in rememberance of the 17,556 british soldiers who died fighting in the Normandy campaign! Sorry to you americans who come on the board,im not aiming this at you personally,but it does make me really angry that in recent years hollywood and the media are constantly playing down the sacrifices Britain made in world war 2 to make it look like the americans won the whole war single handedly,in saving private ryan there wasnt a single Brit soldier seen in the entire film,despite the fact we took 3 of the 5 Normandy beaches with the canadians!In the film U-571 Hollywood made out that it was american forces who captured the enigma machine when it was in fact the Royal navy who captured it before america had even entered the war,and even in the pearl harbour film they had to sneak in a sequence of ben affleck fighting in the battle of britain despite the fact only 10 american volunteers flew in that campaign out of 1,103 fighter pilots!even in the otherwise excellent Band of Brothers series the few brits shown were inept toffs in tanks in the market garden episode!and dont get get me started on computer games which are largely an all american effort
I appreciate that America played an undeniably big part in the final outcome of the war & a lot of sacrifices were made,but it makes a lot of british people angry that our own efforts are largely ignored or americanised & this snub to our head of state at the D.Day anniversary is just the latest incident of it!America isnt to blame for this one though,its the arrogant & ungrateful french this time! You only have to look at the war memorials in every town & village in the country to see how many of our men died in that war

I don't blame anyone who snubs your queen. She is no different than Kim Jung Il or any other dictator, for that matter. At the end of the day, there really isn't any difference between royals and tyrants.

As for the overstatement of what was America's involvement in the European theatre, I happen to agree with you. Many sacrificed their lives on Omaha and Utah beach. Not just Americans.

The difference is, Britain and France kept giving concessions to Hitler when they should have been gearing up for war. In fact, Britain and France didn't even declare war until their neighbors were completely swallowed up by the huns. If Britain and France would have attacked when they should have, there wouldn't have been any need for a D-Day invasion, and those American lives could have been spared.

Most Americans, at the time (and perhaps now), would have been content to just sit and watch Europe burn. Germans, French, Brits.. it's all greek to us.

[Tricky]

I don't blame anyone who snubs your queen. She is no different than Kim Jung Il or any other dictator, for that matter. At the end of the day, there really isn't any difference between royals and tyrants.



How so?you do realise the queen of england has no power any more,or any kind of say in our foreign policy or internal politics?all decisions in this country are made by parliament,and if you were to say gordon brown is like kim jong il then i would agree with you. The queen just happens to have the title "head of armed forces" which is why its extremely rude of france not to invite her to represent the armed forces past & present on the D.Day anniversary.
The British army was too weak to fight off hitlers army in france with his new blitzkrieg tactics in 1940,or indeed launch a pre emptive attack on germany,and yes we did have weak leadership prior to churchill who appeased the Nazis.
Anyway at the end of the day its all hindsight & what happened happened,all that should concern us is that history is represented & remembered as it really happened,& representatives from all nations involved -including germany- should be invited to lay a wreath & say a few words for the men who died fighting there on this anniversary,rather than present day administrations trying to score political points off each other in a popularity contest

[Publius]

How so?you do realise the queen of england has no power any more,or any kind of say in our foreign policy or internal politics?

How dare you question the Queen's power! Watch out or she'll have you hauled off to the re-education camps, or simply shot. After all, she's just like Kim Jong-Il. :)


You only have to look at the war memorials in every town & village in the country to see how many of our men died in that war

Quite right! The UK's combat dead were only about 10% less than the US combat dead, despite the US population being nearly three times larger. And the UK suffered FAR more civilian deaths, since very little of the war was fought on or over US territory. But the USSR has all the other Allies beat by a long shot, of course. :)

[krakenslayer]

It's not terribly surprising to be honest, almost understandable in fact when you consider France's history with regards royalty in general. However, symbolically, it's a pretty bad show of indifference towards the "little people" of Britain who fought and died in the war.

[AcesandEights]

How dare you question the Queen's power! Watch out or she'll have you hauled off to the re-education camps, or simply shot. After all, she's just like Kim Jong-Il. :)

That got a chuckle out of me. Nice to see we can still count on you for a healthy sense of perspective, Pub :)

[childofgilead]

I don't blame anyone who snubs your queen. She is no different than Kim Jung Il or any other dictator, for that matter. At the end of the day, there really isn't any difference between royals and tyrants.

As for the overstatement of what was America's involvement in the European theatre, I happen to agree with you. Many sacrificed their lives on Omaha and Utah beach. Not just Americans.

The difference is, Britain and France kept giving concessions to Hitler when they should have been gearing up for war. In fact, Britain and France didn't even declare war until their neighbors were completely swallowed up by the huns. If Britain and France would have attacked when they should have, there wouldn't have been any need for a D-Day invasion, and those American lives could have been spared.

Most Americans, at the time (and perhaps now), would have been content to just sit and watch Europe burn. Germans, French, Brits.. it's all greek to us.

It's comments like this that make the rest of the world think American's are self righteous know it alls who "saved the world". Churchill was an outspoken opponent of giving Hitler ANY leeway. The US's invasion of Europe would have been alot more difficult if not impossible without the ability to use England as a staging area.

Also, have you ever heard of the desert war in Africa? God..in a way I want to apologize for the behavior of a fellow American, but really, what's the use?

[Neil]

It's comments like this that make the rest of the world think American's are self righteous know it alls who "saved the world". Churchill was an outspoken opponent of giving Hitler ANY leeway. The US's invasion of Europe would have been alot more difficult if not impossible without the ability to use England as a staging area.

Also, have you ever heard of the desert war in Africa? God..in a way I want to apologize for the behavior of a fellow American, but really, what's the use?

...and it makes me believe the rumuor that Michael Caine removed his children from their school in the US when they were taught WWII started in 1941... 'm sure it's only a myth though :)

[childofgilead]

Speaking of Mr. Caine, I think that the Battle of Britain should be required viewing in classrooms when discussing WW2. It just..should.

[Tricky]

Well,the good news is that france has now caved in (where have we seen that before) and the queen is invited!

*edit - although the french have now said the royals can attend,its been left far too late for anything to be done about it,so none will be attending!I just hope someone is there to speak up for & honor all our veterans who will be there

[mista_mo]

Personally, I'd much rather see movies that show cased the Canadian efforts in both World Wars- that is something you never see in hollywood movies. Maybe I'm just sensible, but we sacrificed a hell of a lot in both wars, especially for a nation with such a comparatively small population.

I have nothing but respect for those that fought -and died- in WW1, and WW2, but come on, we've seen enough about the American involvement, lets see some English and Canadian perspectives now!

Ahh well, I guess I'll have to get my fix by watching the history channel..

[AcesandEights]

i have nothing but respect for those that fought -and died- in ww1, and ww2, but come on, we've seen enough about the american involvement, lets see some english and canadian perspectives now!


anzac

[DjfunkmasterG]

Personally, I'd much rather see movies that show cased the Canadian efforts in both World Wars- that is something you never see in hollywood movies. Maybe I'm just sensible, but we sacrificed a hell of a lot in both wars, especially for a nation with such a comparatively small population.

I have nothing but respect for those that fought -and died- in WW1, and WW2, but come on, we've seen enough about the American involvement, lets see some English and Canadian perspectives now!

Ahh well, I guess I'll have to get my fix by watching the history channel..

You damn canucks want credit for everything. Can't you just be happy the remake of DAWN, LAND, DIARY and the new yet untitled DEAD films were shot in your country? :p

Canada is the new PITTSBURGH :p


Of course I am fucking with you, so don't have a cow. :lol:

[AcesandEights]

You damn canucks want credit for everything. Can't you just be happy the remake of DAWN, LAND, DIARY and the new yet untitled DEAD films were shot in your country? :p

Canada is the new PITTSBURGH :p

Though this brings up a good point that I was steering away from, but what the hell...

Why not put some pressure on the home front, Mo, and maybe "Hollywood North" can make some films that show Canada's contributions. Unless I'm mistaken, Canada's film industry has blossomed (relatively speaking) over the last thirty years and, coupled with modern & less expensive production techniques and equipment, there's no reason your country's film industry can't crack out some good films on the topic in question.

[Neil]

Speaking of Mr. Caine, I think that the Battle of Britain should be required viewing in classrooms when discussing WW2. It just..should.

Fantastic film!

[SRP76]

It's obvious that the French just don't care about the queen. Are you honestly surprised?

[Tricky]

It's obvious that the French just don't care about the queen. Are you honestly surprised?

But its not just snubbing our queen,its snubbing the British military veterans who fought there who wont see many more of these anniversaries,sure some of the vets will be there,but without our head of state to speak up for them,they will be largely ignored by the media

[MinionZombie]

But its not just snubbing our queen,its snubbing the British military veterans who fought there who wont see many more of these anniversaries,sure some of the vets will be there,but without our head of state to speak up for them,they will be largely ignored by the media
There was an interesting piece I saw a bit of on Newsnight last night, and it was going on about American war films and TV (e.g. Saving Private Ryan, and Band of Brothers), and how Britain is 'slowly being erased from WW2' ... and indeed, it seems that way.

Videogames are doing a far better job than movies or TV - the Call of Duty franchise always/often features numerous missions where you play a Brit - and heck, the vast majority of COD4 (while not WW2) you play as Soap MacTavish, a dude from the SAS ... but the likes of COD2 really highlight Britain's involvement.

COD5 only has Americans and Russians though.

There needs to be more films, tv and games that focus far more/entirely on the role the Brits played in and throughout the war.

[Tricky]

There was an interesting piece I saw a bit of on Newsnight last night, and it was going on about American war films and TV (e.g. Saving Private Ryan, and Band of Brothers), and how Britain is 'slowly being erased from WW2' ... and indeed, it seems that way.




Going off topic slightly but in a similar vain, its not just world war 2 either,how about this one? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7012698.stm
Rewriting history to make it inclusive of all the different cultures that now exist in Britain! :rant:


Mr Phillips's view appears to be based on the work of historian Jerry Brotton. He argues that the Armada had been weakened before it even set sail because the Spanish had been forced to keep some ships in the Mediterranean to deal with the troublesome Turkish navy.
But Dr Simon Adams, co-author of England, Spain and the Grand Armada, said the Ottomans were not threatening Spain in the Mediterranean.
He said: "The letter had been sent in 1584 or 1585 and although England might have hoped the Turks would cause the Spanish problems, nothing really happened.
"The Turks were not really doing anything (against Spain) in 1588. They were busy in the Near East."
Dr Adams said the Armada failed because it was poorly planned and the English had an effective Navy helped by favourable weather.
The Civitas think-tank, which has republished the authoritative history Our Island Story by Henrietta Elizabeth Marshall, said the claim is "fantasy".
Robert Whelan, of Civitas, said: "Before we start weaving in stories about the Turks and the Armada, dreamt up by people with their own agenda, we should first ensure we get the basics right."

[MinionZombie]

Going off topic slightly but in a similar vain, its not just world war 2 either,how about this one? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7012698.stm
Rewriting history to make it inclusive of all the different cultures that now exist in Britain! :rant:
Political correctness has long since out-lived its purpose methinks...

[SRP76]

But its not just snubbing our queen,its snubbing the British military veterans who fought there who wont see many more of these anniversaries,sure some of the vets will be there,but without our head of state to speak up for them,they will be largely ignored by the media

That's not true. They invited the PM, the actual head of the government. It's not like they put out a "British Ban" or something.

[Tricky]

That's not true. They invited the PM, the actual head of the government. It's not like they put out a "British Ban" or something.

Gordon Brown is not the head of british armed forces though,the Queen is,and on top of that she is the only surviving head of state who served in the war & the veterans of that time have far more respect for the royals than our generation has because thats just how things were,and besides i dont think a single person in britain has any respect for gordon brown or any of his cabinet,pretty much the entire nation wishes he would just quit & call an election!

[SRP76]

the veterans of that time have far more respect for the royals than our generation has because thats just how things were,and besides i dont think a single person in britain has any respect for gordon brown or any of his cabinet,pretty much the entire nation wishes he would just quit & call an election!

That's true, but not relevant. You're stuck with your current "leader" no matter how much you may not like it. Same with everyone. Many Americans sure as fuck don't like the idea that Obama is "representing" them in these things either, but he's the guy they're stuck with, like it or not.

And when you get down to it, if the monarchy still had the actual power, half the country would be constantly bashing on the queen right now. Why? Because half a country always wants one thing, and the other half always wants the opposite. If you're the "leader", half the people are going to hate you at all times. It's just a matter of which half.

[MinionZombie]

Gordo's the Prime Minister, not the Head of State - which is the Queen.

Plus, nobody elected Gordon Brown - I know the Queen isn't elected, but that's not a part of a monarchy, but it IS a part of becoming Prime Minister - and Gordon Brown isn't even elected. Shit, he's not even elected by his own party, for crying out loud.

In summary, I think Gordon Brown's a twat. :D

Now - off to Spoons for a few birthday drinks. :cool:

[Dtothe3]

The royals lived through WW2 right, thats amazing.

The queen, as the head of the armed forces, did she ensure the release of the men and women from the channel islands after the Germans were driven from the beaches of France?

Everyone looks out for their own, tells their own story.

My family story starts when my Great grandad watched his friends die in a hail of machinegun fire. It didn't end till long after ther army had re-claimed the beaches of France. Long after they could have taken back the channel islands.

The only truth about war, is that the young and stupid, die for the old and bitter.

[Publius]

That's not true. They invited the PM, the actual head of the government. It's not like they put out a "British Ban" or something.

I would think the head of state would be more relevant to a ceremonial event like this. We're not talking about an invitation to a smoke-filled conference room to iron out some policy details.

[MinionZombie]

I would think the head of state would be more relevant to a ceremonial event like this. We're not talking about an invitation to a smoke-filled conference room to iron out some policy details.
Indeed.

And annoyingly at the G20, Sarah Brown (PM's wife) kept being referred to as the "first lady" - first of all, this isn't America, second of all, our first lady is The Queen!

[Tricky]

lets also not forget that during the falklands war the french were supplying exocet missiles to argentina to fire at our forces! I guess theres still bad blood about that one too....

[MinionZombie]

lets also not forget that during the falklands war the french were supplying exocet missiles to argentina to fire at our forces! I guess theres still bad blood about that one too....
Didn't know that one. Cheeky feckers. :eek:

[Neil]

lets also not forget that during the falklands war the french were supplying exocet missiles to argentina to fire at our forces! I guess theres still bad blood about that one too....

Ummmm:-
- During?
- The French or arms dealers?

[shootemindehead]

Regardless of that,she is still the head of the British armed forces by default so its only right that she should be there to commemorate the soldiers who died in the Normandy campaign,i'll be disgusted if they send someone like miliband to represent us there! I just hope Sarkozy & Obama dont treat the remaining British veterans who will definitely be there in person with the same level of ignorance & contempt

@ kortick, the french have always had a bit of a problem with the english & us with them,some of it goes back centuries, such as the battle of agincourt & the napoleonic wars,but the french were also bitter towards us during world war 2 because we abandoned france in 1940 after it was clear the germans had won, & our forces would have been destroyed at dunkirk if we hadnt evacuated back to england. The french expected us to fight to the last man for their country which we couldnt do, and they were ungrateful when we came back with the americans & canadians 4 years later to liberate them,i dont think they like the fact they had to be saved by their old enemy...

Well, the "French" (some of them) still hold a lot of grudges about having to go to war with Germany in the first place and feel that they were virtually forced into by Chamberlain's reckless declaration of war on Sept 3rd 1939, thus diverting Hitler's attention away from Eastern Europe and onto French soil. Also, the British attack on the French fleet at Oran in 1940 certainly didn't help matters. Neither did bombing campaign over France, which killed thousands of civilians. In addition, the decision to pull the BEF out of France and leave the French "flapping in the wind" as one British General put it, will never be seen as anything other than a betrayal by the British.

There's still a lot of animosity floating about.

To be honest though, I'll be glad if/when the glorification of D-Day is put to rest. Your're correct, Tricky, that Hollywood has skewed the event (and the war itself) into even newer heights of absurdity than ever existed before and the whole "greatest generation" thing really gets up my nose. Sure, D-Day was an important event and the largest seaborne invasion since the Spanish Armada, but it DIDN'T win the war in Europe and in terms of scale, is absolutely dwarfed by the likes of Bagration, just a few weeks later. Besides, when D-Day was launched in 1944, the war in Europe had to all intents and purposes been won the year before...by the Soviets.

But I fear that as long as there is nonsense produced on the "history" Channel and by Hollywood, that D-Day will be the "beginning, middle and end" to some peoples view of the Second World War in Europe.

But, should the French be snubbing Britain in a D-Day ceremony? No.


lets also not forget that during the falklands war the french were supplying exocet missiles to argentina to fire at our forces! I guess theres still bad blood about that one too....

Well, they weren't "suppyling" the Argentines with the Exocet. They had sold them a number of missles in a deal that was made long before the Falkland's War broke out.

The French actually held off deliveries of Exocets to Peru lest they end up in the hands of the Argentine Navy.