Labour getting completely trashed in elections..

[Tricky]

Ive just had a look on the news sites & in 10 councils that have announced results, conservatives have won 105 councillors while labour have lost 80, labour have also lost 4 whole councils while conservatives have gained 6! the fringe parties are doing well out of this too. Geoff Hoon, Margaret beckett, Hazel Blears, Jaqui smith & James purnell have all quit the cabinet & all of them are big hitters for labour, politics is getting interesting & its good to finally see the labour governments downfall! Gordon Brown cant hold on much longer surely, i think that general election will be happening this year! Tories are soiled with this expenses thing too, but they have to be better than labour with regards to other policies! Witnessing history here UK folks!

[darth los]

Ive just had a look on the news sites & in 10 councils that have announced results, conservatives have won 105 councillors while labour have lost 80, labour have also lost 4 whole councils while conservatives have gained 6! the fringe parties are doing well out of this too. Geoff Hoon, Margaret beckett, Hazel Blears, Jaqui smith & James purnell have all quit the cabinet & all of them are big hitters for labour, politics is getting interesting & its good to finally see the labour governments downfall! Gordon Brown cant hold on much longer surely, i think that general election will be happening this year! Tories are soiled with this expenses thing too, but they have to be better than labour with regards to other policies! Witnessing history here UK folks!



Well, as a yank it's amazing to me that you even have that many legitimate parties that a citizen can vote for.


With that said things like this go in cycles. In 1994 the democats got completely crushed by the republicans and they really didn't regain power until 2006. Now, the it's the republicans that are "lost in the wilderness" or in "exile" if you will.


Unfortunately, I don't know enough about your country's political process in order to comment more profoundly. :(






:cool:

[MinionZombie]

Indeed, I'm a little surprised this many people have resigned/snubbed Brown over their position in politics and his leadership (or rather, lack thereof), as Labour have never booted out one of their leaders (apparently - they've been around for about 110 years I think).

The Conservatives have been tainted by the expenses thing, but Labour have taken a far heavier beating - because more of them have been involved, and their offences are generally worse than the Tory ones - the Tory ones are generally "funnier", or easier to mock, lampoon, and make quick reference of ... Labour on the other hand have a lot of very naughty things like phantom mortgages, which is pretty much Fraud, right?

Importantly though - Cameron & the Conservative's handling of their people's involvement has been far better than Brown & Labour's handling (across all parties it's only "some" involved, which is important to distinguish, I can't be doing with this mob-rule rabble of "they're all crooks", it's factually incorrect, and is just ghastly thinking).

The Conservatives have been consistent, tough and properly thought-out - they've proposed general changes that make a LOT of sense to the system in general, and they were first (I believe) to put out their own partie's 'pledge' on using expenses from now on, as well as being the first to publish all their expenses from now on, online (and have been doing so for a few weeks now so far).

The odd wankers who sully the Conservative Party in general are getting booted out/standing down (good!), meanwhile on Labour's side it's a bunch of quango-obsessed talk of "committees" (who do nothing), and inconsistent reaction to their people's slip-ups (many of the Labour Cabinet have been royally up to no good too).

As for policies, the Conservatives have far better ones than Labour. Labour just mutter and tub-thump about "doing the job" and "real help for real people" - as opposed to all that fake help, for fake people, yeah?

Well - fake help indeed - a much-trumpetted £285 MILLION mortgage relief scheme has helped - *drum roll* - TWO people in the UK.

And that's the tip of Labour's ice berg of inept bugger-upping.

The Tories have solid, properly thought-out policies - just go to their website, and it's all laid out there, or watch WebCameron, or watch Cameron's speeches on YouTube and you'll find out about a hell of a lot of their policies. Or, be an idiot, and believe Brown's useless war whimper of "they've got no policies" (which is factually incorrect - and ludicrous, because Labour have been pinching - and then maiming - a number of Tory policies for months and months now - the bloody cheek, too!!!)

The Tories want public spending waste cut out (damn straight), they want an EU Treaty Referendum for the British people (and the people have been wanting it for ages - Labour promised one, then denied us one, the c**ts). The Tories want shot of the useless and sickeningly expensive ID Cards scheme (damn straight), they want less top-down Labour-style government (damn straight), and to send power back to local regions (damn straight). They want to improve education properly (e.g. changing the way history is taught, so that it is taught in a more general "narrative" form, rather than being focussed on a handful of small periods - like I was taught ineffectively under - so I'm ALL for that)...

*gasps for breath*

etc-etc-etc - I could go on, but I can't, I'm tuckered out.

Labour are shot to shit, the political cycle has turned it's withering gaze upon them now, and it's their turn to crumble and die and let the country get on with fixing itself after 12 years of being thrashed in the bollocks.

...

Go Team Blue! :)

[capncnut]

It's nice to see Labour get their asses trashed but trust me, whoever gets in next time, youze all will be slagging the f**k out of 'em inside six months. :D

[darth los]

It's nice to see Labour get their asses trashed but trust me, whoever gets in next time, youze all will be slagging the f**k out of 'em inside six months. :D


I wish you were wrong but the reason for that is politicians, no matter what party they're from are basically all the same. They just throw a few wedge issues out there, red meat for their base if you will, and then proceed off of that.







:cool:

[Tricky]

It's nice to see Labour get their asses trashed but trust me, whoever gets in next time, youze all will be slagging the f**k out of 'em inside six months. :D

True to a certain extent,although i dont think any british government in history,including past labour governments & the tories under major, has ever had such a spectacular downfall as this one! They seem to be blaming the expenses row for their downfall, but it goes way deeper & further back than that & its just been the catalyst for it!a decade of failed social experiments,failing services despite them throwing limitless money at them,a huge increase in nanny state rules & regulations,unreasonable state snooping,two wars they didnt/dont know how to finish,creating a generation of state reliant slackers,completely ignoring public opinion to follow their own agendas on almost everything,constant backtracking & spin & a whole other list of things have finally woken even staunch labour supporters up to what this government really is. After this lot fall i think we'll be entering a new & hopefully better era of politics because the public simply wont stand for the next government treating us with such disdain & they certainly wont get away with the expenses thing again whichever party they belong to!

[shootemindehead]

This may be a severe blow for Labour, but it still doesn't compare to the absolute implosion that Major's Conservative government experienced. Also, to a large degree, outside circumstances have sullied the people's view of the party, such as the economic downturn. That has everyone disatisfied with their current governments.

I don't like the "new" Labour phenomenon and I disliked Tony Blair intensely. Many of Labour's MP's were abslute dicks, such as Jack Straw, Geoff Hoon, Mandy and Hazel Blears, to name but a few and the MP's expensives fiasco is an absolute disgrace...but is anyone really surprised at that? Really?

However, if the British think that the Conservatives are going to get them out of the current trench and lift them into a new age of prosperity, then they are deluding themselves terribly.

I'm Irish and live in Ireland (where we have our own current problems with our political parties), but I'm old enough to remember the absolute grim mess that Thatcher's Britain was and the sheer hatred with which many British people held for her and the Conservatives.

People have such short memories and if they think that this shiny new boy Cameron is the answer, then god help them.

[Tricky]

I dont see how majors fallout was worse than this?his government was elected out by a public who wanted change,and went with a whimper,nothing like the full on krakatoa implosion browns labour are now going through!the tory sleaze of the early 90's pales in comparison to the things that have happened under the current governments watch!
The conservatives are the only party capable of replacing labour at present if your realistic about it,the lib dems have no chance & all the single issue "other" parties although its important they have seats,arent big enough to be a government, so its either give cameron a chance or vote for a fourth term of walking corpse labour with the very frightening spectre of peter mandelson as PM seen as he's been made deputy today :dead:
I dont think the tories are perfect,far from it,but its time for change & unless some miracle new party emerges then they are the only viable alternative

[MinionZombie]

The Tories aren't 100% - not even I'm saying that - but nobody, absolutely nobody could do as badly as this past 12 years of Labour, a shower of shites who have/are going to - thanks to the economic bollocks-up they've helped cause - borrow more money than all governments put together for what, the past 300 years?! :eek:

That's beyond anyone's capability to imagine - but it's happened.

As for Mandy - that shitbag who was TWICE sacked from government, who was then brought back and given a bloody Lordship (like Alan-unelected-wanker-Sugar) is now called "First Secretary of State" - which is "Deputy Leader" in all-but-name, because they don't want to put Harman's nose out of joint.

The sheer abuse of Britain's civil liberties over the past 12 years have been astonishing, and previously unknown - Brown even promised to look the other way on expenses last year just as long as his people voted in favour of the Habeous Corpus-ignoring 42 Day Detention (which was then shafted by the Lords - at least they did something right, despite being unelected sorts).

With the amount of cash pummelled into public services - such as education, and the NHS - we should have second-to-none comprehensive ("public" to the Americans) education and public health care - but we don't.

The education is a complete joke - and I have personally witnessed the joke that is modern Britain's education first hand (I was also one of the "guinea pig year" who had the bugger up that was the A/S Levels forced upon us - the teachers themselves told us that they had sod-all idea what they were doing, oh gee, thanks - a myriad of students didn't get their first, or even second, or even third choice for their university because of the results tampering - I was one of the lucky ones to get my first choice thankfully).

My family has also witnessed first-hand the state of red tape and bureaucracy that's drowning the NHS - waiting months for another appointment, not hearing anything back from them until you randomly get a letter months later, not being able to get a hold of doctors over the weekend (and sometimes during the bloody week), consultants who don't bother to think "you know, an 89 year old woman probably needs glasses - so I'll assess her making tea to see if she can go home WITHOUT glasses" ... and because my Mum couldn't get my Gran out of hospital due to a month of red tape wrangling, and my Gran catching illnesses from just being in hospital - she died. :(

...

Back to less personal, and more general gripes against this disgusting barrage of bastards that is this Labour government, the last time they were in they sent us to the IMF, cap-in-hand. It's always the way - Labour spends all our money, gets us into a complete mess, then the Conservatives have to come along and fix all this shit - which means actually making the hard decisions and choices, which a bunch of odds-shouters take against them and label them "the nasty party". Don't blame the builder re-building your wall, blame the berk that drove a bus through it in the first place.

The Conservatives aren't 100%, but no party is, but the Tories are the best chance by far that Britain has - and they're willing to put their case forward and lay out their plans and be honest about it (they themselves have been routinely honest about the economic mess we're in, for instance).

It's quite a clear choice, either don't vote, vote for a shower of shites who have completely ruined Britain yet again (a shower of shites who, until this lot, had never gotten a 3rd consecutive term - says it all really), or vote for new, fresh blood to take over the major crises facing our country, fresh blood that has a vision, and a whole list of ways to fix the problems we've got in abundance. Simple as.


I dont see how majors fallout was worse than this?his government was elected out by a public who wanted change,and went with a whimper,nothing like the full on krakatoa implosion browns labour are now going through!the tory sleaze of the early 90's pales in comparison to the things that have happened under the current governments watch!

Damn straight - plus John Major was at least voted in by the public, and his party - unlike a certain bully-boy called Gordon Brown. No election within Labour, and no say for us citizens either. If Labour didn't have any opposition, nor the need to be dragged kicking & screaming to a general election every 5 years, they'd be perfectly happy to just dictate to us forever - I'm damn sure of that, especially Brown thinks that way - his blatant disgust at having to answer a question by The Spectator's Fraser Nelson the other day (as I saw on YouTube) says it all really. Brown's blinkered opinion that he knows best and we don't is sickening.

Under Labour we've had a culture change - the state no longer works for the citizens, and you are no longer innocent until proven guilty. Time and again it's a case of guilty until proven innocent, and even then we'll keep your DNA forever on yet another fucking freedom-raping database.

:mad:

Pissed off? You could say that, yeah...:dead:

[shootemindehead]

I dont see how majors fallout was worse than this?his government was elected out by a public who wanted change,and went with a whimper,nothing like the full on krakatoa implosion browns labour are now going through!the tory sleaze of the early 90's pales in comparison to the things that have happened under the current governments watch!
The conservatives are the only party capable of replacing labour at present if your realistic about it,the lib dems have no chance & all the single issue "other" parties although its important they have seats,arent big enough to be a government, so its either give cameron a chance or vote for a fourth term of walking corpse labour with the very frightening spectre of peter mandelson as PM seen as he's been made deputy today :dead:
I dont think the tories are perfect,far from it,but its time for change & unless some miracle new party emerges then they are the only viable alternative

No doubt about it Tricky, Britain IS in a tight spot. However, as I said, it's a delusion to believe that the Cons are the answer. Even if they are[I] the only serious alternative to the current Labour shower (com'on Lib Dems, hurry up!).

It only highlights the farce that is governmental systems at play in so called Western Democracies. As Southpark put it, a vote between a douche and a shit sandwitch, is still a just a vote between a douche and a shit sandwitch. Of course that's a critique on the ridiculous nature of the two party system in the States, but Britain ain't far behind in that respect.

Cameron may look like the gleaming new badge on the front of a car, the problem is, the bloody car is still the same and it goes in the same direction too. As for actual policy, they still haven't given a single credible answer as to why they should be voted in and Labour voted out.

Personally, I'm not sure what the answer is. Perhaps it's Labour revamping itself again into a "New, New" Labour and getting back to the ideals that the likes of Tony Benn believes in. Some say, that Labour should never have moved away from those ideals in the forst place.

Whatever the answer is, it certainly isn't the Conservatives.


The Tories aren't 100% - not even I'm saying that - but nobody, absolutely nobody could do as badly as this past 12 years of Labour, a shower of shites who have/are going to - thanks to the economic bollocks-up they've helped cause - borrow more money than [I]all governments put together for what, the past 300 years?! :eek:

Ummm, really? Do you really believe that Britain would be in a better state had the Conservatives won in 1997 and not Labour? Or even if they'd won in 2001?

No, I don't think that Britain would have been any better off to be honest. I don't think the Conservatives would have done anything that different. Can you imagine the Cons not going into an un-necessary war in 2003? Can you imagine them not clamping down on civil liberties after 7/7? Can you imagine them putting something by "for a rainy day", lest the world economy went belly up? Can you imagine them being less corrupt than the current Labour bunch. Knowing the Conservatives past attitude to public services, can you imagine that the likes of the NHS would be in better shape?

Really?

I can't.

The situation would still be relatively the same, possibly even worse.

The problem is not Conservative, or Labour, or any other partisan political persuasion. It's the system that sets up the political elite and that system eneviably puts a gulf between the political classes and the people of the Country they are supposed to be answerable to.

[Tricky]

Ummm, really? Do you really believe that Britain would be in a better state had the Conservatives won in 1997 and not Labour? Or even if they'd won in 2001?
.


No not at all because the party was consumed by in-fighting at the time,although i do think michael howard could have done a far better job than darth brown by the end of labours second term & i voted accordingly.But in 2010 the cons will be the only party capable of taking over.I would never vote lib dem, they're far too wet to tackle any of the issues head on,they would be even worse on crime than labour have been which takes some doing!the lib dems voted down most of the policies labour have brought in to try & curb crime (against anti-social behaviour orders,against dispersal orders on gangs of teenagers,against teenagers being sent to court etc),because they believed it was too harsh,when actually labours policies were nowhere near hard enough which is why adolescent murders have exploded under labour & criminals dont get punished anywhere near hard enough for serious crimes.If the dems think labour are too hard on crime then god help us if they ever got into power!
Also the lib dems follow labours views on the europe issue i.e. "bollocks to what the british public want,we're joining the federal european superstate because we know best and we dont want you to have a say on it" whereas the cons are going to give us a referendum on the issue,which will be a resounding "no" guaranteed!cameron cant back down on the referendum because he has torn strips off gordon brown in the commons for not letting the public decide on this huge decision that would change the country forever if it gets ratified (so far you irish have prevented that happening,but europe is going to keep at you till it gets the answer it wants).
Labour can reshuffle as much as they like,but they have completely destroyed public confidence in their ability to govern by a string of failures that started sometime in their second term & have snowballed since!no matter what they do they stand very little chance of making a comeback fourth term,this local election has proved that.
maybe the cons leave a bad taste in your mouth, but most people even when pinching their nose to say it would prefer them to the soft as shite lib dems

[MinionZombie]

Ummm, really? Do you really believe that Britain would be in a better state had the Conservatives won in 1997 and not Labour? Or even if they'd won in 2001?

When did I say that? I never said that.

The Tories were in a complete mess after a few years of Major, who was a Major bugger up - the political cycle had come to stare it's horrid gaze upon the Tories in the mid-90s, and it was their time to leave office and be replaced by Labour.

Fortunately though, the Tories had actually fixed the recession of the beginning of the 90s (which my family personally suffered greatly from - and we're still Conservative voters) and left the public purse in good order when Labour took over.

Then Gordon Brown (who himself said 'I'm not very good at maths') came along and destroyed the balance sheet (as well as conveniently removing a variety of items from the list which would usually be measured to assess our standing - plus changing how inflation was covered, not using constant spend items like Council Tax etc, but by using rare purchase items like televisions - RPI and CPI if memory serves).

A core principle of Conservative policy is financial responsibility, and spending within your means (something Labour doesn't share - they're all about spending, regardless of value for money - their track record over the last 12 years illustrates this point abundantly).

Under Labour, council tax has continuously risen year-on-year thoughout an economic "boom". In the boom years taxes should go down, not fucking UP! Plus - areas like Manchester (Labour) have consistently had lower tax rises than the Shires (Tory), which have had huge increases (my family can personally attest to the ludicrous rise in council tax, and the complete lack of any visible leap in our area that such a huge increase would buy - all it's buying is red tape and bureaucracy).

So yes, under a Tory government we would have been in a far better financial position, they simply don't believe in rinsing the tax payer for every penny they've got so they can "invest" it in quangos and other waste - the same waste which is what the Tories want to cut out when/if they get into office - aka the "spending cuts", that Labour are desperately trying to paint as damaging the services - which is a flat-out lie, the Tories have already laid out what they won't be touching, including front-line services. What they want shot of is the waste and red tape - which is actually making the services worse (again, my family and I can personally attest to this decrease in public service quality).

So yes, they would have saved money "for a rainy day", because you're actually braindead if you (not you specifically, "you" as in "they") think you can have year-on-year growth forever. Fact is, you have to have expansion, followed by contraction, followed by expansion and so-on in a cycle. The idea is to make the sea as calm as possible - not like Labour who have made the boom years so (apparently) good (we saw fuck all of it, thanks in part to our huge council tax rises), which sets us all up for an even worse recession than you would have had even with only slightly sensible policy in use - the worst recession for decades upon decades, and more money borrowed than all the governments put together for three centuries (300 years, if memory serves - at the least it's the ballpark figure) - and yes, that is correct (terrifyingly).


No, I don't think that Britain would have been any better off to be honest. I don't think the Conservatives would have done anything that different. Can you imagine the Cons not going into an un-necessary war in 2003? Can you imagine them not clamping down on civil liberties after 7/7? Can you imagine them putting something by "for a rainy day", lest the world economy went belly up? Can you imagine them being less corrupt than the current Labour bunch. Knowing the Conservatives past attitude to public services, can you imagine that the likes of the NHS would be in better shape?

I don't blame Labour-at-large or any of our governments-at-large for going into Iraq - if anyone's to blame for the misinformation, it's the ones right at the top - in our case, the Labour Cabinet of the time, who spread the misinformation ... although whether they thought it was misinformation at the time of going to war, who knows? I kinda think that perhaps Saddam himself thought he had WMDs, but no longer had them (they have a shelf life methinks), and nobody was willing to tell him for fear of being strung up or worse.

I do think however that going to war in Iraq, when you'd already kicked off in Afghanistan, was a poor choice for all governments involved. Plus, I also think that Saddam should have been ousted in the first Gulf War.

The Tories have been in existence, in one form or another, for hundreds of years - put simply, they are at the heart of Britain, and as such they have a far greater respect for important, historical, civil liberties.

The Tories had their corruption back in Major's years (which were bad years anyway), but Labour take the absolute cake.

The first Lords to be booted out (Labour Lords too) for centuries, the first speaker to be forced out for 300+ years, the McBride fuss, trying to make information leaks to the PUBLIC (we have a right to know) a criminal issue (when NO national security was at risk) - they even tried to do it again when "expenses gate" was about to happen, but didn't. Shit, £5 million was wasted on Labour attempting to find prosecution in the no criminal offence committed case of Damien Green (ironically Gordon Brown himself benefitted a lot from similar information leaks - so even worse, he's an epic hypocrite).

Speaking of hypocrisy, Labour have been riddled with it over the years like a timber ravaged by termites - the first which comes to mind is Two Jags Prescott (Mr "common man" who was on holiday when he shouldn't, playing croquet on a mansion's lawn :rockbrow:) bitching out Major for having an affair - and yet, unsurprisingly, Prescott is caught with his cock inside someone who looks shockingly unlike his wife - yep, an affair from he who condemned those who have had them. The tip of Labour hypocrisy ice berg.

The Conservatives don't oppose the NHS - and nor do I, it should be a public service, damn straight - they oppose the wasteful mismanagement of it - something which is literally costing lives (again - my family has personally and painfully seen this).

Plus, with Cameron - the Tory leader - having used the NHS a lot more than the average British punter out there, because of his now tragically dead son (who was, for the uninitiated Americans reading, severely disabled) - it would be retarded to think the Conservative Party of today would seek to damage the NHS - they want to fix it to make it a better public service.

Labour say "we've made this, that and the other better" - but saying is nothing, they've said plenty, but fuck all happens. They think if they say it, then it's done - they get the tabloid headline and they kick the idea into a bin. Throwing money wastefully at a problem solves nothing - less money with proper ideas and methods will actually bring about far better value for money, and a far better public service.

...

I'll finish by saying that the Conservative Party of today is not like that of before, just like the Labour Party of today is not like that of before. Each party has their core, enduring principles and style of government, but as the years pass by and the faces change, so does the party.

Labour a tired out and dying, the Conservatives are fresh-faced and eager.

"Government of the Living Dead"? No thanks.

[shootemindehead]

No not at all because the party was consumed by in-fighting at the time,although i do think michael howard could have done a far better job than darth brown by the end of labours second term & i voted accordingly.

Howard? Good god, no. The man didn't have a clue. Britain would have been in far, far worse state if the Cons had got in then. For god's sake, the Conservative party as an entity itself was in turmoil at that stage. How could they possibly have run the Country successfully, if they couldn't even manage their own affairs?


But in 2010 the cons will be the only party capable of taking over.

Again, just because they are waiting in the wings with a shiny new knob (Cameron) in their hands, doesn't mean they are fit for purpose. The Conservatives have offered NOTHING viable in the shape of policy to help Britain get out of its current perdicament. They are simply giving a rallying cry of "General Election!". That's no use to anybody. Of course, Conservative party members will be happy and people of a so-called "conservative" politcial persuasion will be happy, simply because the party "of their choice" will have won power. But what happens when they wake up the next morning and find that their new Emperor still has no clothes? As bad as Labour have been in the last number of months of this term, the Conservatives have still not offered a single constructive plan or policy that makes me believe that voting them in would good for Britain.


Also the lib dems follow labours views on the europe issue i.e. "bollocks to what the british public want,we're joining the federal european superstate because we know best and we dont want you to have a say on it" whereas the cons are going to give us a referendum on the issue

Perhaps, but there are many in the Conservative fold that think joining Europe is a great idea now, whereas before it was a no no. Cameron may be waving the "I'm going you a vote" flag now. But that is capitalise on the disastrous about-face that Brown did on the matter. Brown did some serious foot shooting with that no doubt.


Cameron cant back down on the referendum because he has torn strips off gordon brown...

If there's one thing I've learned about politicians, it's that a good political animal will always find a way to back down from a position/promise previously held.

NEVER believe what ANY politician is saying to you, especially when they are looking for power.

To paraphrase the immortal words of Mandy Rice Davies, "...He would say that, wouldn't he?"


maybe the cons leave a bad taste in your mouth, but most people even when pinching their nose to say it would prefer them to the soft as shite lib dems

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I have a number of years on both you and MZ and I remember the absolute misery that was Britain (and Ireland) in the 1980's / early 90's. That "bad taste" has lingered very strongly in the mouths of people old enough to have seen it and I don't think that "holding one's nose" and swallowing what the Cons have to offer (what is that BTW???) is necessarily the right answer, at the moment.

[MinionZombie]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I have a number of years on both you and MZ and I remember the absolute misery that was Britain (and Ireland) in the 1980's / early 90's. That "bad taste" has lingered very strongly in the mouths of people old enough to have seen it and I don't think that "holding one's nose" and swallowing what the Cons have to offer (what is that BTW???) is necessarily the right answer, at the moment.

What about the mess of the 1970s? :rockbrow:

And also - maybe that's part of the problem - your view (and those like you) of the past lot colouring your view of the current lot - the faces have changed, the views of the party have moved on, as have the opinions (yes, Ken Clarke is back on the front bench, but he's a talented politician - and he fixed the economy pre-97).

Plus, there's many people who voted Tory back then, who are still voting Tory, or who went away and voted Labour - ended up thoroughly disappointed - and have come back to the Tories.

Indeed, there's also a lot of Labour faithful who have been absolutely disgusted by the carry on of this past 12 years - for example, a guy I work with has been a long-standing paid-up member of the Labour party, but ever since the Iraq War he's become very, very disillusioned with them - he tore up his membership card, and has been nothing short of sickened by a myriad of actions by Labour since the Iraq war debacle kicked off.

There was someone saying recently, can't remember who (political commentator I think), who was saying that in British politics governments have pretty much 10 years in them before the wheels start to come off and it all goes wrong - after that (with varying speeds) it all comes apart ... and indeed those who take over the leadership after the first 10 years (e.g. Brown, or Major ... to a lesser extent by comparison) suffer the consequences of taking control of a tired out, wheezing old wreck.

Labour started fisting themselves in their second term, they were too lazy in their first term, and after suffering solid losses in 2005, they've been dive-bombing towards the hard concrete ever since at every turn, decision, vote, local election etc.

The cycle has come around once more - Labour's in its death throes, and it's now the turn of David Cameron's Conservative Party - come the 2020s the cycle will no doubt be turning against the Conservatives after (I hope) a decade or more of real change, development, rebuilding, restructuring, and generally fixing this current mess we're in. The polls have been predicting it strongly for over a year and a half now.

[Tricky]

What about the mess of the 1970s? :rockbrow:

.

Like my mum said today "you dont remember when the power used to go off all the time & the rubbish wasnt collected in the 70's"
Not to mention the dead going unburied,the drivers strikes & the three day week,labour?pffft

[Andy]

You know i honestly dont get why people slag thatcher off.. yeah she was hard faced but she pulled us right out of the mess labour made of the country in the 70's.. surely thats what we need again?

Quite frankly i would vote ANYONE before i would vote labour, they are the biggest joke of party going.. the monster raving loony party have more common sense than brown and his cronies. get this shower of shite out of office ASAP i say.

[capncnut]

You know i honestly dont get why people slag thatcher off.. yeah she was hard faced but she pulled us right out of the mess labour made of the country in the 70's.. surely thats what we need again?
Well the thing with Thatcher is that she pretty much put this country in the state it's in today, the state it's been in for the last twenty years. But I will say is that she was tough, took no riff-raff and was not a bullshitter, and that I liked.

[Pógmothóin]

Your politics over there are just about as bad as ours over here.

Everybody likes to ridicule Bush, and yeah, I agree, Bush was a joke. But have you ever heard Obama without his teleprompter? He's a stumbling fool too. He can't spit out a single, solitary sentence without going expressionless for ten seconds and saying, "uh."

If Bush and Obama is the best America has to offer, this country really is in the crapper. Same can be said with the idiots running the show over in your neck of the woods. That Gordon Brown guy is one greasy asshole. I catch prime minister's questions on C-Span from time to time, and everytime I see that asshole, I want to take a shower afterward. He's just a greasy lump that looks like he washes his hair in lard. I just don't like him or that nerdy looking twit, Jack Straw. If that's who's calling the shots over there, I pity you guys.

I'm proud to say i've voted in every election since '96, and the only republican or democrat I ever voted for was Bob Dole in '96. Buchanan in 2000. Badnarik in '04, and Ron Paul (A constitutionalist before he's a republican) in '08.

As long as we continue to vote for Democrats, Republicans, LibDems, Labor, Conservatives and their establishment ilk, we're going to keep getting crapped on. I, for one, am too old and tired, to get stepped on and shit on. Even state and local elections, i'll vote for the independent. I just refuse to support any of those establishment clowns. Not after what they've done to this country. I just won't do it.

[MinionZombie]

But I will say is that she was tough, took no riff-raff and was not a bullshitter, and that I liked.

Which is what you need in tough times for the country - Labour haven't got a single person like that, especially as their government over the last 12 years has been guided by seeking popular headlines in tabloids, or playing the "class war" game yet again - like the whole Fox Hunting Ban - such effort and fuss went into all that, but er, hello - there's a lot more stuff out there that needed doing.

I can't be doing with this class war, politics of envy bullshit - especially when it's being peddled by Labour politicians, many of whom are lawyers and the like, all of whom are earning very nice indeed, or very large sallaries ... a significant minority of them also rinsing the expenses business.

They claim to be "for the working man", but this Labour government are anything but, they couldn't give a stuff about the common man, the average man, or any man, woman or child's opinion on anything. They think they know better, and Gordon's the epitome of that thinking "I'm the one for the job/we're getting on with the job/real help for real people" - the same fudged statistics, the same catch phrases that bring no actual action, the same tired out bullshit we've had for years now.

Back to the main point at the start of this post, you need someone with consistency of vision (hell - vision, full stop), a strong will, a real determination to fix their country, and someone who can/has/is bringing change to their own party.

The only leader in the UK doing that is David Cameron.

Brown (or any possible follow-up for Labour) is a complete joke. Clegg is a twat leading a party who claim to be "of their own", but would just as soon leap gleefully into bed with Labour in the event of a hung parliament, than truly stand on their own merits (i.e. you can't trust folk like that, plus they're just odds-shouting numpties) ... then what else have you got? A bunch of one-note piddly-little parties who have no actual ideas or visions for the huge task of governing an entire country.

The Greens would give us more trees, but nothing else.
The BNP would lynch all non-whites, and nothing else ... well, except maybe start building a series of ethnic cleansing ovens or something...wankers.
UKIP would just remove us entirely from the EU (as I've said before, we need to pull right back from it, but leave our toes in the water - even I think we've had some benefit from the EU ... but £40 million a day benefit? pfft), but bugger all else.

I can't even be arsed to think about the other slew of minority parties, what an absolute joke.

Running a country is a massive deal, you need a large, strong party to take the job, not some pokey shower of shites (or a rabble of pokey shite showers scotch-taped together).

[capncnut]

Back to the main point at the start of this post, you need someone with consistency of vision (hell - vision, full stop), a strong will, a real determination to fix their country, and someone who can/has/is bringing change to their own party.

The only leader in the UK doing that is David Cameron.
I would've been happy to vote for Cameron this year until I saw his interview on GMTV. What a f**king wanker, mate. He's just another in a long line of sewage cleaners who will fail at making this country better, it is as simple as that. He's already talking bullshit, he's had his fair share of controversies (and he's not even PM yet), and most of all, he's just a smug, punchable, toffee-nosed little Eton c**t full stop. :dead:

[Tricky]

I would've been happy to vote for Cameron this year until I saw his interview on GMTV. What a f**king wanker, mate. He's just another in a long line of sewage cleaners who will fail at making this country better, it is as simple as that. He's already talking bullshit, he's had his fair share of controversies (and he's not even PM yet), and most of all, he's just a smug, punchable, toffee-nosed little Eton c**t full stop. :dead:

forget cameron & look at others in his party though,people like david davis,McLoughlin,osbourne & william hague are what we need right now,cameron is just the figurehead of the party & figureheads are usually wankers (a la brown & blair).Im not sold on cameron either but he's got a decent team behind him now after all the squabbling a few years back & thats what im supporting! better them than the champagne socialists & trotskyists that have ruined us over the last 12 years

[shootemindehead]

I would've been happy to vote for Cameron this year until I saw his interview on GMTV. What a f**king wanker, mate. He's just another in a long line of sewage cleaners who will fail at making this country better, it is as simple as that. He's already talking bullshit, he's had his fair share of controversies (and he's not even PM yet), and most of all, he's just a smug, punchable, toffee-nosed little Eton c**t full stop. :dead:

Agreed and that's why the Conservatives are not the answer to Britain's problems. By and large, they are and always have been a party of the privileged, for the privileged and that is where there core values lie.

Not that "New Labour" have been that far behind, I must say.


forget cameron & look at others in his party though,people like david davis,McLoughlin,osbourne & william hague are what we need right now,cameron is just the figurehead of the party & figureheads are usually wankers (a la brown & blair).Im not sold on cameron either but he's got a decent team behind him now after all the squabbling a few years back & thats what im supporting! better them than the champagne socialists & trotskyists that have ruined us over the last 12 years

Willy Hague? The failed leader of the Cons? David Davis? Holy jesus :eek: no way.

The figurehead of a party is what sells the party to the average punter. Most of which are blissfully unaware of any kind of actual policy. If your figurehead is a wanker, that kind of says a lot about the party.

Yes Cameron is most definitely a "wanker", but no less a wanker than Michael Howard, Ian Duncan Smith, William Hague or John Major.

Probably better than that cunt Margaret Thatcher, but only because at the moment he's promising the world on a plate.

Day 1 after a Conservative victory, all that will change.

[Tricky]

Agreed and that's why the Conservatives are not the answer to Britain's problems. By and large, they are and always have been a party of the privileged, for the privileged and that is where there core values lie.

Not that "New Labour" have been that far behind, I must say.



Willy Hague? The failed leader of the Cons? David Davis? Holy jesus :eek: no way.

The figurehead of a party is what sells the party to the average punter. Most of which are blissfully unaware of any kind of actual policy. If your figurehead is a wanker, that kind of says a lot about the party.

Yes Cameron is most definitely a "wanker", but no less a wanker than Michael Howard, Ian Duncan Smith, William Hague or John Major.

Probably better than that cunt Margaret Thatcher, but only because at the moment he's promising the world on a plate.

Day 1 after a Conservative victory, all that will change.


Whats wrong with hague?he's a decent enough bloke who took over the party at a time when they were still in a mess after losing power, he was also at the mercy of labours smear & spin machine when it was at its peak of its power & labour were still seen as popular so didnt stand much chance,and david davis is a former territorial SAS member,and to pass the training for that particular regiment reservist or not,you have to be pretty fucking tough. You seem very bitter about the conservatives despite the fact you dont live under british government,does it have something to do with thatchers policies in northern ireland when she came to power or were you living in england during the 80's?not trying to be a twat here,im just interested.You havent put anything on the table barring a hint at the pathetically limp & pro federal europe lib dems though, so who do YOU think should be running Britain this time next year when the general election has taken place in all seriousness?
You say the conservatives are the party of the priviledged,but what about labours cabinet?they were all born with silver spoons wedged firmly up their arses & have all lived extremely priviledged lives!hardly working class heroes

[shootemindehead]

Whats wrong with hague?he's a decent enough bloke

Hague is a wet. He's a do nothing, no answer public schoolboy. In no way do I consider him a man to get Britain out of it's quagmire.


...and david davis is a former territorial SAS member,and to pass the training for that particular regiment reservist or not,you have to be pretty fucking tough.

Davis was an insurance clerk who joined the TA to get money to resit exams. But so what? Paddy Ashdowne was in the Royal Marines and he's a Lib Dem. That's meaningless.


You seem very bitter about the conservatives despite the fact you dont live under british government...

I distrust politicians and politics in general Tricky. Not just the right wing of politics. I don't buy into partisan propaganda that the faithful spout from any particular side. I also don't believe in "great white hope" flag waving that goes on when either political persuasion is the ropes and the vultures begin to circle. But Thatcher's Britain in particular, was an utterly depressing place to live (yes I did live there for a period) and her policies were destructive for many in Society (of course Maggie said society didn't exist :D ). I disagreed with her policy of rampant privatisation, I remember how she handled the miners, I remember the Poll Tax and the subsequent riots. But most of all, I remember her for what she was, a privileged position politician who felt that she was beyond the reproach of the people and not answerable to that society she claimed didn't exist. An upper echelon, "breed apart" person who mistook her position for rule, rather than one of governing for the betterment of all.

But, as I've said before, the problem is not one of Conservative vs Labour, or Republican vs Democrat. It's the systems themselves that are at fault and need to be revamped. It's democracy lite and as long as there are limitations on choice, the merry-go-round will continue to turn and the only ones who'll really benefit are the political classes at the end of the day.

Certainly not you, or I.


not trying to be a twat here,im just interested.You havent put anything on the table barring a hint at the pathetically limp & pro federal europe lib dems though, so who do YOU think should be running Britain this time next year when the general election has taken place in all seriousness?

Again, as I said earlier, I don't have the answer to that, short of a revolution :D. I don't know what the answer is to who should be running Britain, nor Ireland for that matter. I know the current crowd aren't doing the job at present (in either Country), but I also know that one must be wary of the grass being greener on the other side of the fence. Once you hop over, you soon find out that that field is covered in shit too.

The problem is that rot has set in. It had set in centuries ago, but the wheel is turning slowly, but surly as the general population becomes more and more atune to the people who claim themselves to be "in power". The day will come when society will understand that politicians are answerable to us and means will be taken to make sure they understand that.

Personally, I would like to see the Liberal Democrats become stronger, because it would offer more alternatives to people and that really is good for the "Democracy" that politicians are so fond of dribbling on about. That being said, I wouldn't hold fast with some of their policies either.


You say the conservatives are the party of the priviledged,but what about labours cabinet?they were all born with silver spoons wedged firmly up their arses & have all lived extremely priviledged lives!hardly working class heroes

Ah...I also said that "..."New Labour" have been that far behind".