Romero Hypotheticals

[JDFP]

Hypotheticals, just for the hell of it...

NOTLD: If Tom hadn't been a complete dumb ass (I still shake my head at his stupidity) and they had managed to refuel and get back to the house -- then what?

DAWN: What if they had never come upon one of those "new indoor shopping centers" (that line always cracks me up) and kept going?

DAY: What if Major Cooper hadn't passed onward? Would he have been able to control Rhodes? What next?

Anyway, just some thoughts for discussion... feel free to add your own thoughts and hypotheticals.

-- j.

[DjfunkmasterG]

What if Big Daddy didn't exist?


ANSWER: LAND would have been a great freaking movie and wouldn't have sucked the sweat off a goats nut sack.

[SymphonicX]

have to agree re: big daddy

what would've happened if the kids in diary weren't "filmmakers"? no Diary!!!! :D

[EvilNed]

What would have happened if the dead didn't rise?

[krakenslayer]

What would have happened to Steven, Fran and Peter if the raiders hadn't come?

What would have happened if the posse hadn't arrived in Night? Would Ben have escaped, or would he have rotted down there?

What would have happened if the cops at the police dock had decided to steal the chopper, leaving the survivors with only the boat and possibly no Steven? Where would they have ended up?

[Trin]

What would have happened if Ben and the others had just stayed in the cellar as Mr. Cooper wanted?

What would have happened if Roger had not been bitten while barricading the mall doors?

What would have happened if Miguel had been watched more closely and not been able to leave the cave?

What would have happened if DJ tried to turn this into a Land bashing thread? Oh, wait... he did.

[AcesandEights]

what would've happened if the kids in diary weren't "filmmakers"?

Dear diary,

Today I saw dead people...

It begs the question, could Diary have been worse? I suppose so.


What would have happened if DJ tried to turn this into a Land bashing thread? Oh, wait... he did.

:lol:


What would have happened if the dead didn't rise?

There's elements of this idea that could be used to nice ends in a short story, I'd think. Not your run-of-the-mill zombie fan fic, either.

[Danny]

night: they drive about for a bit till the mob shows up and the night of the living deads over.
dawn: they fly till the run out of gas and try to make it on the ground for as long as they can, im guessing they survive a few months and something just goes wrong.
day: i still think they would have turned mutinous as stress built up, maybe they would have lasted a bit longer, but when they found out about frankenstein i think it was inevitable that they would have all had the mass breakdown they have at the end.
land: big daddy was the catalyst of the story, if he didnt exist then everything stayed the same as in the last few minutes, might have made for an okay series, but as a movie itd be pretty boring.

[Trin]

DAWN: What if they had never come upon one of those "new indoor shopping centers" (that line always cracks me up) and kept going?
They were low on fuel. They couldn't have made it far. Evidence suggests that no one else in the surrounding area had set up a base. They likely die within the week. It's possible they make it to what becomes a protected city and live on there.


DAY: What if Major Cooper hadn't passed onward? Would he have been able to control Rhodes? What next?
Major Cooper held the group together until his passing which was minimally 8+ months, perhaps a year or more. Given that amount of time it stands to reason he could've held them together indefinetly. Events disintegrated within a few days of his passing, indicating his presence (or lack thereof) was very important.

I don't believe the research would ever uncover real solutions, so in all likelihood the group is eventually faced with a decision. Continue fruitless research or eek out an existence. If they abandon the research the next question is whether to abandon the base. We know there is an island within flight distance. It's likely at least some of them move there and have whatever fate John, Bill, and Sara had.


What would have happened to Steven, Fran and Peter if the raiders hadn't come?
They leave the mall. We already know they were preparing to. They fly off and either encounter a protected city and become part of its populace or they realize why there wasn't anyone else left as they spend their dying breath cursing having left the mall.


What would have happened if the cops at the police dock had decided to steal the chopper, leaving the survivors with only the boat and possibly no Steven? Where would they have ended up?
Same as if they hadn't found the shopping mall. Likely die within a week (or less). Possibly become residents in a protected city, in this case one that literally springs up around them. Possibly use the boat and travel some distance and then die.

I'm surprised this thread didn't go anywhere. I love this kind of speculation. Yes, I know, these threads come along every six months.

[Slain]

If I found myself in a group of survivors in any zombie flick that comes to mind--especially the group in Dawn '04--I would get the hell away for them ASAP. Shit, I can screw things up on my own, and get killed without anybody's help.

YMMV

[ProfessorChaos]

I'm surprised this thread didn't go anywhere. I love this kind of speculation. Yes, I know, these threads come along every six months.

i, too, think this thread has some potential, but almost all hypotheticals have been covered within the first couple of posts...we've all analyzed the original trilogy numerous times and thought about what would've/could've gone differerently, so fresh ideas are hard to come up with....and no one really gives a shit about land or diary enough to bother, or so it seems...

[zombiekiller]

Hypotheticals, just for the hell of it...

NOTLD: If Tom hadn't been a complete dumb ass (I still shake my head at his stupidity) and they had managed to refuel and get back to the house -- then what?

DAWN: What if they had never come upon one of those "new indoor shopping centers" (that line always cracks me up) and kept going?

DAY: What if Major Cooper hadn't passed onward? Would he have been able to control Rhodes? What next?

Anyway, just some thoughts for discussion... feel free to add your own thoughts and hypotheticals.

-- j.

what if-night:barbra woke up and it was just a dream,dawn: fran -same, day:same. be intresting to see how they would act.:evil:

[JDFP]

what if-night:barbra woke up and it was just a dream,dawn: fran -same, day:same. be intresting to see how they would act.:evil:

Hi, My name is Larry, and this is my brother Darryl and my other brother Darryl...

j.p.

[krakenslayer]

Same as if they hadn't found the shopping mall. Likely die within a week (or less). Possibly become residents in a protected city, in this case one that literally springs up around them. Possibly use the boat and travel some distance and then die.

I think a lot of people underestimate just how much of a cool-headed badass Peter is. I think, provided his suicidal impulses don't take over, he would be able to live indefinitely in a zombified world, never underestimating or playing into the hands of his undead or living enemies. I just rewatched Dawn (Euro-version) and it really hit me how, in the whole course of the movie, he never really puts one foot wrong, he does nothing that isn't intentional and planned, all the mistakes were made by Stephen and Roger.

[sandrock74]

I think a lot of people underestimate just how much of a cool-headed badass Peter is. I think, provided his suicidal impulses don't take over, he would be able to live indefinitely in a zombified world, never underestimating or playing into the hands of his undead or living enemies. I just rewatched Dawn (Euro-version) and it really hit me how, in the whole course of the movie, he never really puts one foot wrong, he does nothing that isn't intentional and planned, all the mistakes were made by Stephen and Roger.

Peter is my hero of ALL the Dead films!

[krakenslayer]

Peter is my hero of ALL the Dead films!

I'm currently reading the Dawn of the Dead novelisation. It's rather poorly written (the POV jumps all over the place between characters and the descriptions are a bit lame and cliche), about on par with most quickie novelisations, but it is interesting because it gives some insight into the minds of the characters, what they think about each other, and their backgrounds. It really highlights four things to me:

1. At the beginning, everyone, even Roger, is scared of Peter. In the book, the main reason he starts telling him about his plan to escape is partly just to break Peter's stony silence in the basement. The other characters see him as mysterious, cold and aloof. The movie conveys some of this, I always though that was mostly just the characters' general nervousness at the situation, but the novel really plays on this aspect of his character for the first half of the book.

2. Peter is one cool-headed, tough, unshakable bastard. He never goes into a situation without planning exactly what his moves are going to be, and is only ever caught out when someone else on his side fucks up. He will occasionally take on a dangerous task (such as initially raiding the mall), but not without weighing up all the possible outcomes and strategic options.

3. Peter really, really dislikes Stephen initially, even before the rifle incident. Stephen has a cocky, arrogant streak that is more evident in the novel, and it clashes with Peter's level and cautious personality. Stephen also dislikes Peter because he sees himself in a position of responsibility and power, as the helicopter pilot and the only hope of escape for the group, and he feels that Peter's presence undermines his authority. However, by the second half of the novel, their differences have largely been overcome, and after Roger's death the pair become much closer and trusting.

4. An important point in the story is when Fran asks to learn fly the helicopter, and Peter backs her up, Stephen realises he's expendable just like everyone else and that really hurts his male ego and leads to a lot of the interpersonal problems between him and Fran later in the story.

[Trin]

Hey Kraken, I agree regarding Peter. He's large and in charge and rarely makes a misstep. If I look solely at Peter I want to believe he'd survive. That's also great info regarding the book. Now I'm itching to read it!!

What I have a hard time with in the "what-if" scenario is that there was NO ONE around the mall area for months. I'm a mathematician and thus I tend to think in terms of probabilities. It's difficult to accept that Peter could beat the odds that no one else did.

Peter had the potential to get bit a couple times in the opening few scenes (prior to arriving at the mall). He didn't, but he could have. Yes, mostly due to his companions. That was just a couple days at most. But take that across several months and the liklihood of his getting bit goes way up.

A reasonable blend of perspectives would indicate that Peter survived and ended up in a protected area somewhere, just not near the mall.

[krakenslayer]

What I have a hard time with in the "what-if" scenario is that there was NO ONE around the mall area for months. I'm a mathematician and thus I tend to think in terms of probabilities. It's difficult to accept that Peter could beat the odds that no one else did.

If you want to look at it from the point of view of probabilities, you should check out the zombie outbreak simulation software that can be found online. One of the rules of the simulation is that when an uninfected human first comes into contact with a zombie, there is a 60% chance they will be killed and turn into a zombie, but, if they survive, the human's chances of surviving any further encounters increases steadily, representing the survivors overcoming the initial panic and learning how to calmly and efficiently deal with the undead. I think that's a good representation of what would happen in real life.

Also, in real life (or at least in movie life, since zombies don't really exist), not everyone has the same chance of being killed. Some people will simply be unable to defend themselves; some will panic or have a breakdown and drop their guard; others will leave themselves open to attack through arrogance, greed, emotional instability, cowardice, superstition, aggression or other human flaws. People prone to the above (a huge majority of the population) have a higher probability of dying and also getting others killed, and are likely to do so within the first few months of the outbreak - thus making up the bulk of the horde. Thus, by a process of natural selection, the minority who are left alive three or four months in (around the end of Dawn) are going to be those who are better equipped to deal with the situation, or at least those who quickly learned how to do so. I think Peter, and to some extent Fran, fall into the latter category. Combine this with the learning experiences they have had, and their survival chances are further improved.

[Trin]

Good discussion. Good points.

There are really two perspectives.

From one vantage point you can argue things like whether a person is inclined to survive, has the skills, tools, environment, friends, etc. The zombie simulator is likely good at predicting given this vantage point. And Peter probably gets into the 99th percentile of who would survive.

From another vantage point you can look at the state of the world a few months into the outbreak and reverse engineer the liklihood of survival to an individual. If Peter was in the 99th percentile of people equipped for survival he still likely dies when only 1 out of 10,000 survive.

There is a real breakdown bringing the two vantage points together - this is where the movies ask us to suspend disbelief. There are likely enough survivors like Peter in the world to keep an outbreak from ever becoming significant. But where's the fun in that? To believe the movie we must accept that the Peter's of the world are getting killed even though individually it's hard to see how.

I like your argument about human flaws. But I would counter that your argument doesn't completely hold up in the face of the movies. First, the biker gang was full of human flaws and yet they outlived the masses. I think this makes some sense because their lack of ethics and complete self-serving nature allowed them to do some things others would not. Second, human virtues can get you killed too. Peter was (to an extent) self-sacrificing, as any good hero is. He wouldn't let a person die while he stood by. And that could contribute to his demise.

[krakenslayer]

Good discussion. Good points.

There are really two perspectives.

From one vantage point you can argue things like whether a person is inclined to survive, has the skills, tools, environment, friends, etc. The zombie simulator is likely good at predicting given this vantage point. And Peter probably gets into the 99th percentile of who would survive.

From another vantage point you can look at the state of the world a few months into the outbreak and reverse engineer the liklihood of survival to an individual. If Peter was in the 99th percentile of people equipped for survival he still likely dies when only 1 out of 10,000 survive.

There is a real breakdown bringing the two vantage points together - this is where the movies ask us to suspend disbelief. There are likely enough survivors like Peter in the world to keep an outbreak from ever becoming significant. But where's the fun in that? To believe the movie we must accept that the Peter's of the world are getting killed even though individually it's hard to see how.

I like your argument about human flaws. But I would counter that your argument doesn't completely hold up in the face of the movies. First, the biker gang was full of human flaws and yet they outlived the masses. I think this makes some sense because their lack of ethics and complete self-serving nature allowed them to do some things others would not. Second, human virtues can get you killed too. Peter was (to an extent) self-sacrificing, as any good hero is. He wouldn't let a person die while he stood by. And that could contribute to his demise.

Good points, good points. Here're my thoughts:

There are some additional factors that the zombie simulator does not allow for, primarily because it assumes that as the zombies' numbers grow, then chances of any one individual coming into contact with a zombie must also rise proportionately. This fails to take into account some major aspects of human behaviour, namely that long-term survivors will most likely do everything they can to limit their contact with the undead by a) migration, b) fortification and c) extermination.

Firstly, in relation to point A, those remaining have likely observed enough of zombie behaviour to know that they will congregate in areas of population. By this time government control has broken down, so there is nobody cramming people into rescue stations or forcibly evacuating people, the survivors can do what they want, and go wherever the zombies are not. So either by continually moving around (like the bikers) or moving to areas that are isolated and/or inaccessible by foot (e.g. northern Canada, the Rocky Mountains), they can evade contact with large hordes altogether. Not only will these survivors have become more competent zombie-killers, they will have reduced their chances of any encounters with the creatures to levels that are far, far below those of average survivors in cities during the initial outbreak, thus multiplying their chances of survival.

With regards to point B and C, as we have seen in the films, one of the first things survivors tend to do is barricade themselves in somewhere. A process of elimination must apply to any human safehouses, with the least effective ones (both in terms of physical structure and human management) being knocked out first. Therefore, those remaining a few months in, once stalemate has more or less set in and the mass killing have eased off, are already succeeding in protecting their inhabitants from the (more or less) maximum number of zombies they will ever have to. Provided they are able to scavenge enough food (if not, then they're not likely to make it this far), the survivors are likely to turn their minds to the problem of the hordes outside their walls, and figuring out the best ways to safely wipe them out, or at least distract them from gathering around their base.

As far as how the Peters of the world are dying. Well, first of all, we don't know that they are, really. Some of them might already be kicking back on islands on the Great Lakes, or hunting deer in the Rockies. On the other hand, Peter was lucky because not only did he have the correct mindset, but he also had a means to escape the city (helicopter). Plus, if you look at all the times his life was put in jeopardy, it was usually someone else's fault for either being dumb or trying to throw their weight around (i.e. Roger or Stephen), so maybe the Peter's of the world are being killed by the stupidity of others? Now it's just him and Fran, and provided the birth goes by without too many hitches, and they can get to a safe location, I can see them surviving.

You make a very good point regarding human flaws. Maybe that is an area where suspension of disbelief must come into it - in his fictional world, Romero is trying to make a statement about human nature, and those who get cocky or power-hungry usually get their comeuppance, while those who are self-sacrificing and exhibit the traits Romero would like to see survive, are more often rewarded with survival (or at least our sympathy). The bloody dice of reality do not have this moral bias, but I think the core message - stay cool, work together, don't be a dick - is an important one for survival even in our world.

[SRP76]

If you want to look at it from the point of view of probabilities, you should check out the zombie outbreak simulation software that can be found online. One of the rules of the simulation is that when an uninfected human first comes into contact with a zombie, there is a 60% chance they will be killed and turn into a zombie, but, if they survive, the human's chances of surviving any further encounters increases steadily, representing the survivors overcoming the initial panic and learning how to calmly and efficiently deal with the undead. I think that's a good representation of what would happen in real life.



Hold on.

The most important part of this outbreak simulator is this: how does it assume the thing starts? Is it based off one single zombie randomly placed somewhere, or is it based off the idea of all corpses, everywhere, worldwide, getting up all at the same time?

[Wyldwraith]

Love counter-factual debates of survival fiction,
-
Like many, I tend to focus on Dawn, largely because it's the most detailed example of individuals with a plan working together to implement that plan despite the obstacle posed by the undead.

I'm also in the camp that believes the Peters of the world are not in fact dying. They're the ones acting as nuclei for the successful enclaves of survivors that spring up.

Night:...it's really difficult to play "What if?" with NotLD, because of the abundance of lethal errors made by the survivors. The decision to try and hold the ground floor via barricading pretty much predetermined the course of events. The only major counter-factual opportunity here is if Barbara had succeeded in persuading Ben that an escape on foot was much less dangerous than staying in the house. Had that happened, there are a variety of possible outcomes. The next-most critical decision, assuming she failed to persuade Ben as she did in the movie, was whether to go into the basement or attic before or even during the beginning of the mass-breach by the zombies. Survival is the likely outcome had they withdrawn. Not much more one could say.

Day has limited What If options for the obvious reason. By the time of the opening credits the vast majority of outcomes good for the survivors no longer existed. Due to the interpersonal conflict in the research base there are a large variety of other ways for disaster to have found them. Chances were very low that those who did escape would chance upon a safe haven with their limited fuel. The same argument could be made for the end of Land, but at least Dead Reckoning does double duty as secure shelter, even when not in motion.

The more interesting hypothetical scenarios to me are the general fan-created ones for me. The movies are weighed down by built-in factors against the odds of human survival. Either civilization has already failed to contain the infection and 99.5% of humanity is dead, or the protagonists have been denied effective survival resources. That's one of the things that makes Dawn fascinating IMO. The fact that the survivors have unquestionably secure shelter for much of the movie is a novel departure from the usual.

I don't think it's fair to say that all the what-ifs and hypotheticals have been exhausted. It's just that we tend to focus on immediate reactions to discovery of the zombie crisis, or go the other way and take the extremely long view. Everything in between tends to get glossed over.

Just my opinion. Interested to see where this latest thread goes.

[SRP76]

The Day scenario in the original post wouldn't affect anything. If Cooper lived, the ever-pathethic Miguel would still be there. The ever-pathetic Miguel would therefore still fuck up at the zombie corral, leading to his getting his ever-pathetic self bitten. The ever-pathetic Miguel would then still end up dragging his ever-pathetic ass out of bed, and letting a zillion zombies into the complex. Game over, just like what happened.

As long as the ever-pathetic Miguel exists, humanity is doomed.

[Danny]

isnt that a bit harsh?, the whole movies about stress and how different people cope with it.

you got the protagonist who suppresses it, but her dreams are wracked with the same fear and turmoil muigel vocalised.
Muigel was afraid and acted irrationally in that way.
frankenstein coped by trying to recreate a warped and bizarre father son existence.
The names escape me but you got the radio guy who drinks to cope, the lead antagonist who gets angry that he finally has the power, but in actuality is as powerless as the rest, and in his stress induced rage he lashes out how he does.
The other two sort of become subhuman and just prowl around like jackals, again there trying to cope by falling back into this pack mentality.

This isnt just me right?, i thought this was pretty much the theme of the movie, there all in the same situation, exactly the same. Theres no way to control the dead, they all no it, the worlds gone, there status, education, experience, rank none of it means anything other than the leftovers of a now dead species trying to play at being human, whilst trying to deny that very fact and they each break down in there own way.

come to think of it this is the 3rd film in a row where the black guys the only rational voice of reason that keeps a level head, i know romeros said the race thing is just readin too much into it but now i think about it i reckon theres something to it, intentional or not.

[SRP76]

isnt that a bit harsh?, the whole movies about stress and how different people cope with it.



I don't think it's harsh. Miguel was a fuckup, and he pretty much signed everyone's death warrant when he let the zombies in. And we never had even one scene with Rhodes and Miguel together, so we can't blame any of Miguel's actions on Rhodes. He would have done the same things whether Cooper was still alive or not.

And once all those zombies are let in, there's no way to survive. Cooper wouldn't have made a difference.

[Slain]

What I wonder about is the lack sex drive the characters in Dawn and Land display. I don't recall Rodger or Peter once talking about exploring the area around the mall to look for women of their own. The soldiers at the underground base in Land seem relatively content harassing the lone chick at their base, and I don't recall them talking about deserting Rhodes' ass to go search for female companionship. If the zombie inducing agent also decreased people's sex drive, I think they should have mentioned it in the movie or something.

[krakenslayer]

Hold on.

The most important part of this outbreak simulator is this: how does it assume the thing starts? Is it based off one single zombie randomly placed somewhere, or is it based off the idea of all corpses, everywhere, worldwide, getting up all at the same time?

Well, the zombie simulator simulates single zombie starting off in a small area with many humans. This, in and of itself, is not totally inaccurate because even with every single unburied corpse in the country getting up, there is like likely to be, initially, only a very small number (maybe as few as one in some areas) in any given square mile of landscape. The simulator doesn't attempt to model an entire world, only a little self contained area.

You are right, however, that it does not truly represent behaviour in a Romerian zombie outbreak. These issues have already been discussed by Trin and myself but probably the main one in relation to your point is the problem that the simulated area IS self-contained - humans can not migrate elsewhere and zombies cannot wander in from elsewhere. Also, in the simulator humans do not die of natural causes or kill each other, so cannot turn into zombie by that route, and it does not model human behaviour in trying to avoid, escape or actively exterminate zombies. So yeah, taken as a whole there are all kinds of problems in using the simulator as a model for the outbreak in GAR's films, but that wasn't really what I was trying to do; I was using one aspect of the game to illustrate one single point - that humans will get better at surviving zombie encounters as time goes on.

[Trin]

Logan caused the demise in Day, not Miguel. The group might have coped with Miguel's bite had Logan's little secret not been exposed. They coped with other military deaths to that point without losing it.

Cooper was a force of stability in the group as evidenced by how quickly the situation deteriorated after his death. There's nothing to say the group couldn't have continued on indefinitely with Cooper as the leader.

As for Peter and the zombie simulator - I still am not convinced of people like Peter surviving. I agree they would last longer than most. They might set up small shelters here and there and weather the initial storm. Some of those would surely turn into Fiddler's Greens.

Looking at a couple weeks or a month or two, yes, I agree, they'd survive. But Dawn was an 8 month period. Merely beating off a hundred zombies and blocking the doors isn't going to cut it for that kind of survival time.

Lack of electricity, sanitation, clean water, food, gasoline, medicine, etc. would get you eventually. You cannot manage disease, vermin, parasites, stress with an M-16. The mall was great for a while. But even the Dawn crew realized the mall was not the answer.

[darth los]

It was the answer but not a cure all. They could have stayed at the mall indefinitely but what caused their malaise there was no cure for. They felt isolated and empty. The world was at an end. To quote Logan: Where will you go?



Were there any places better than the mall? Of course not, it just also happened to be a big shiny target for looters but they had the right idea.


Wherever they went they would have faced atleast the same problems only they would not have been as comfortable.









:cool:

[sandrock74]

The Day scenario in the original post wouldn't affect anything. If Cooper lived, the ever-pathethic Miguel would still be there. The ever-pathetic Miguel would therefore still fuck up at the zombie corral, leading to his getting his ever-pathetic self bitten. The ever-pathetic Miguel would then still end up dragging his ever-pathetic ass out of bed, and letting a zillion zombies into the complex. Game over, just like what happened.

As long as the ever-pathetic Miguel exists, humanity is doomed.

Word!


I don't think it's harsh. Miguel was a fuckup, and he pretty much signed everyone's death warrant when he let the zombies in. And we never had even one scene with Rhodes and Miguel together, so we can't blame any of Miguel's actions on Rhodes. He would have done the same things whether Cooper was still alive or not.

And once all those zombies are let in, there's no way to survive. Cooper wouldn't have made a difference.

Keep preaching, brother!


What I wonder about is the lack sex drive the characters in Dawn and Land display. I don't recall Rodger or Peter once talking about exploring the area around the mall to look for women of their own. The soldiers at the underground base in Land seem relatively content harassing the lone chick at their base, and I don't recall them talking about deserting Rhodes' ass to go search for female companionship. If the zombie inducing agent also decreased people's sex drive, I think they should have mentioned it in the movie or something.

I don't know...this seems foolish to me. I mean, if I was always having to worry about being made a snack to a mass of zombies, getting laid would be very low on my totem pole of important things to me! Besides, some of the characters, like Rickles, wore wedding rings, so they may have been clinging to the hope that they would see their spouses/familes again. So, chasing poon tang pie wouldn't be high on their list of priorities either.


Looking at a couple weeks or a month or two, yes, I agree, they'd survive. But Dawn was an 8 month period. Merely beating off a hundred zombies and blocking the doors isn't going to cut it for that kind of survival time.

Lack of electricity, sanitation, clean water, food, gasoline, medicine, etc. would get you eventually. You cannot manage disease, vermin, parasites, stress with an M-16. The mall was great for a while. But even the Dawn crew realized the mall was not the answer.

Very true. I was thinking of this the other day when I was at the drawing board. I always envisioned Dawn as taking place (roughly) from Halloween to early March. Two bits of evidence in the movie would support this theory: 1. the lack of leaves on trees and 2. Frans belly.

Basically, the "fantastic four" made their break from Philly, found the mall and barricaded it in late October - early November. They holed up there for the winter (which we didn't see on screen, because we were being shown their reactions to being cooped up and isolated...already a natural reaction to winter). Then, around early March, Fran was noticably bigger and there were still no leaves on the trees AND Fran put a heavier coat on prior to leaving, implying it was still chilly outside....so not yet spring.

The gang was lucky to find a comfortable place to shack up for the winter. Hell, with heat, food, indoor plumbing and fresh clothes all at their disposal, they were in a MUCH better position than pretty much any other survivors out there! Still, I think that they would have been hard pressed to stay there thru the summer. Eventually, something beyond their control would have happened to make them loose power or something.

In short, the mall was a great short term solution, it should not have been meant to be a permanent one.

[JDFP]

I don't think it's harsh. Miguel was a fuckup, and he pretty much signed everyone's death warrant when he let the zombies in. And we never had even one scene with Rhodes and Miguel together, so we can't blame any of Miguel's actions on Rhodes. He would have done the same things whether Cooper was still alive or not.

And once all those zombies are let in, there's no way to survive. Cooper wouldn't have made a difference.

I disagree with your last sentence that Major Cooper being around wouldn't have made a difference one way or another -- and this is why. Rhodes was a prick masochist, but he respected Major Cooper. He respected the chain of command. The way that he re-acted with Logan when he found out what Logan was doing with Cooper proves this. You could say that Rhodes just snapped regardless, but as much of a masochist that Rhodes was he must have respected Cooper a great deal in not trying to mutiny against Cooper to take charge of things (of course we don't know how Cooper really died, maybe Rhodes had a hand in it?)

If Cooper was an officer of any caliber he would have never let Miguel be in a position where he could have been bitten in the cave by handling the dead. And he must have been an officer of some high degree of caliber because he kept the facility going under all the stress and chaos that later ensued without him in command. The break down of the facility as quickly as it did without Cooper running the place proved his worth in keeping things together. If Miguel had never had an opportunity to be bitten by being the fuckup that he was, then perhaps Cooper would have also been wise enough to keep his eyes on Miguel.

What we do know about Cooper is that he kept things going, he kept Rhodes in check, and he did the best he could under the daunting circumstances -- even the scientists respected him to a certain degree by stating that: "Cooper was an ass, but compared to Rhodes he was a sweet-heart."

Is it possible that the soldiers would have eventualy broke down and mutineed against him anyway? Possibly. But I don't think the outcome of the film would have been anything like what was presented to us had Cooper not died.

j.p.

[Trin]

Yeah!!!! Great post JDFP!!! Tons of great observations in there!!

I have long held the opinion that Cooper's death marked the beginning of the end. And had Cooper lived the fate would've been vastly different.

Glad to see someone else take that stance.

[sandrock74]

I don't think the troops would have turned on Cooper. Think about it, if they failed, then what? Surely they would have been tossed out...if not outright killed. I think that, while everyone hated the situation they were in, they were not about to do much (like mutiny) if it would do something to endanger the relative security the roof over their head provided.

Major Coopers death was the begining of the end, certainly. The place was overrun with zombies like 24-48 hours later!

[SRP76]

If Cooper was an officer of any caliber he would have never let Miguel be in a position where he could have been bitten in the cave by handling the dead. And he must have been an officer of some high degree of caliber because he kept the facility going under all the stress and chaos that later ensued without him in command. The break down of the facility as quickly as it did without Cooper running the place proved his worth in keeping things together. If Miguel had never had an opportunity to be bitten by being the fuckup that he was, then perhaps Cooper would have also been wise enough to keep his eyes on Miguel.



He would have been bitten anyway. The whole reason Miguel was there was because everybody was there - there weren't enough people. If Cooper were alive, there would still only be a handful of grunts, and Miguel would still have been at the zombie corral, and everything would still have gone the way it did.

The only difference is, if Cooper were alive, Sarah and the others would never have escaped. They only got away because Rhodes had them tossed into the corral before Miguel let the zombies in. If Cooper were around, they wouldn't have been in there; they'd have been hanging around in John and Billy's trailer, and been assaulted by a horde of ghouls that they didn't know was coming, with no way out.

[JDFP]

He would have been bitten anyway. The whole reason Miguel was there was because everybody was there - there weren't enough people. If Cooper were alive, there would still only be a handful of grunts, and Miguel would still have been at the zombie corral, and everything would still have gone the way it did.

The only difference is, if Cooper were alive, Sarah and the others would never have escaped. They only got away because Rhodes had them tossed into the corral before Miguel let the zombies in. If Cooper were around, they wouldn't have been in there; they'd have been hanging around in John and Billy's trailer, and been assaulted by a horde of ghouls that they didn't know was coming, with no way out.

You are making quite a few assumptions that things would have happened exactly like they did with Cooper still in command -- in assuming that everything went down like it did. One, that Cooper wouldn't have had Miguel shot outright the moment he was bit. Two, that even if Miguel had not been shot outright that they would have allowed him to stay in the trailer and not lock him up somewhere for observation. Rhodes mistake in his anger/fear of not allowing Miguel into the main facility may not have been anywhere near the same approach that Cooper may have taken. And, finally, I don't think that Cooper would have been as foolish as Rhodes in allowing Miguel to not be closely observed around the clock to see if he "changed" -- allowing Miguel virtually free-reign without being locked away/observed would have been too dangerous and a seasoned officer would have been more wary of the danger posed by someone bit and potentially/probably infected. Miguel's ability to use the elevator to unleash the dead was more about piss-poor command leadership on Rhodes behalf as opposed to Miguel's going bat-ass crazy.

I certainly appreciate your thoughts, and I can see where you are coming from, but I just don't see a wiser more experienced officer like Cooper was allowing things to go down the way that Rhodes did. Miguel should have been completely supervised if not outright shot from the moment he became bit and his arm became fodder.

A more poignant question perhaps would be how Cooper would have possibly reacted to finding out that Logan was almost certainly feeding remains of any of the five soldiers or one scientist that were lost previously as "tar tar" for Bub and his buddies.

God, I have watched that movie WAY too many damn times... it's sad when I can turn it on and hit the mute button and still recite almost all the lines...

j.p.

[Trin]

Rhodes sent Miguel to the corral with full knowledge that the man was on the edge. Instead of making a command decision to delay bringing back a zombie he decided to thrust his man into a dangerous situation for which he KNEW the man was not prepared. He did it to prove that Miguel was breaking down and to call the man out. What kind of leader does that?

Not the Cooper kind of leader. That's what kind. Cooper held them together. I imagine Cooper would've assessed the situation and forced the scientists to wait while his men regrouped.

How would Cooper have reacted to finding out what Logan was doing? That's a good question and one I've asked myself many times. It's a tough one. I imagine he would've executed Logan. He almost would've had to in order to keep the troops from mutiny.

[Slain]

Word!

I don't know...this seems foolish to me. I mean, if I was always having to worry about being made a snack to a mass of zombies, getting laid would be very low on my totem pole of important things to me! Besides, some of the characters, like Rickles, wore wedding rings, so they may have been clinging to the hope that they would see their spouses/familes again. So, chasing poon tang pie wouldn't be high on their list of priorities either.



If the characters in Dawn and Day lived constantly on the run fighting zombies I could believe their lack of desire to find women, but they weren't. If men turned off from women every time our species hit rough spot the human race would have died out a long time ago. I still consider the behavior of men in Dawn and Day to be atypical and something to wonder about. On the other hand, the characters might have been acting as George Romero supposed men would behave in an apocalyptic situation by deciding women were just excess baggage, and not worth the risk of finding or keeping around.

ETA Oops, I typed in "Land" by mistaken when I was thinking of Day of the Day. I haven't even seen Land (everybody says it sucks anyway) so I have no idea how the characters in this flick acted.

[sandrock74]

If the characters in Dawn and Land lived constantly on the run fighting zombies I could believe their lack of desire to find women, but they weren't. If men turned off from women every time our species hit rough spot the human race would have died out a long time ago. I still consider the behavior of men in Dawn and Land to be atypical and something to wonder about. On the other hand, the characters might have been acting as George Romero supposed men would behave in an apocalyptic situation by deciding women were just excess baggage, and not worth the risk of finding or keeping around.

What was atypical of Peter in Dawn? The only woman around was Fran and she was with Flyboy and pregnant with his kid. With no other female possibilities around, it was a non-issue. In Land, I'm assuming people in the Green had paired up (we know the lesbians did), so what was atypical of that? That Riley showed no interest in Slack? It may have been simply she was not his type. I am not attracted to Slack now. I wouldn't be then, either. Again, it's a non issue.

By the way, does anyone know exactly how Cooper died? I just realized that I don't know. Sarah seemed mildly surprised at his death. I was just wondering...

[SRP76]

Let me do this one next:




NOTLD: If Tom hadn't been a complete dumb ass (I still shake my head at his stupidity) and they had managed to refuel and get back to the house -- then what?



Would have been pretty shitty for the "survivors". Only a couple (three at most) will fit in the cab, and the dying/dead girl would have to be loaded into the back. The Coopers probably both back there with her.

Since the headlights were smashed out, they would have to drive very slowly through the darkness, which would allow the dead to constantly be groping over the sides of the truck, into the bed. The people riding in the back would have to constantly be battling these ghouls. And then when Karen revives, we've got a big problem back there.

But assuming the people in the cab itself remain protected from dead hands, they at least will make it to Willard, meeting up with the posse. Then they live happily ever after.

[Wyldwraith]

One of my favorites:
What if during the siege of the mall by the bikers in Dawn, ALL of the survivors had stuck to the plan and remained concealed instead of Stephen beginning a hopeless shoot-out? Coupled with this What If: What if the mall survivors had built an ACTUAL wall instead of a weak-as-rice paper facade of one to conceal their hideout?

The logical outcome of the first part is that everything happens as depicted until Stephen chooses to remain hidden. The bikers go about their slapstick antics with the zombies and senseless looting, during which several of them are infected or killed outright. The remaining bikers withdraw, Stephen doesn't die, and there's nothing to trigger the hasty escape attempt or Peter flirting with suicide. The survivors then begin the arduous but not terribly difficult per se process of re-securing the mall, which they eventually do.

Yes, the remaining bikers might well choose to return, but then again they might not. Several of their number died for little more gain than a few watches and necklaces to the rest of the gang. Should they return in their lessened strength they could in all likelihood be repelled by rooftop gunfire before they managed to reach the re-secured doors.

The second part is just as simple. Even if Stephen had still died/reanimated, and then led the zombies towards the hideout, the zombies would've been unable to break through a well-constructed wall. Fran and Peter would probably still have chosen to flee, but it would've been a considered deliberate action, rather than a desperate lunge to survive.

To me, Dawn '78 is one of the scenarios that Romero had to inject maximum human error into his characters in order to reduce them to the desperate straits seen at the end of the movie, and thus beat us over the head with his brute-force delivery of the anti-materialism/anti-superconsumer message.

It took a combination of minimal foresight, suicidal recklessness by two of the four characters, and serious tactical/strategic errors related to the biker invasion to doom the mall inhabitants. That many poor decisions/suicidal behavior traits & decisions leaves Dawn '78 the most open to What If-ing. All you have to do is imagine the survivors had acted intelligently and you get a dozen possible positive scenarios. Imagine that either Roger or Stephen don't get themselves killed and there's another double handful of diverging results. Only in Dawn does each character individually have such a profound effect on the overall outcome.

Thoughts?

[Yojimbo]

I haven't even seen Land (everybody says it sucks anyway) so I have no idea how the characters in this flick acted.
Don't take everyone's word on this, go check it out asap. You might actually like Land, like me!


Rhodes sent Miguel to the corral with full knowledge that the man was on the edge. Instead of making a command decision to delay bringing back a zombie he decided to thrust his man into a dangerous situation for which he KNEW the man was not prepared. He did it to prove that Miguel was breaking down and to call the man out. What kind of leader does that?


Actually, wasn't this a decision made by Steele and not necessarily by Rhodes?


I am not attracted to Slack now. I wouldn't be then, either. Again, it's a non issue.


I don't know, (if I wasn't married) I wouldn't dismiss Slack as a potential date. She wasn't all that bad.



Would have been pretty shitty for the "survivors". Only a couple (three at most) will fit in the cab

Back when I was in High School I had a Datsun B210, a small ass 2-door economy car with very little room inside, and we once fit 11 people in it. Granted it was crowded, and there weren't ghouls trying to grab for us, though! But still, I think they might have been able to squeeze 5, including the driver, onto the bench seat inside the cab of that truck.


If the characters in Dawn and Day lived constantly on the run fighting zombies I could believe their lack of desire to find women, but they weren't. If men turned off from women every time our species hit rough spot the human race would have died out a long time ago. I still consider the behavior of men in Dawn and Day to be atypical and something to wonder about. On the other hand, the characters might have been acting as George Romero supposed men would behave in an apocalyptic situation by deciding women were just excess baggage, and not worth the risk of finding or keeping around.


Or maybe, like "hetrosexual" prisoners in lockup, maybe it was so lonely down there in the bunker that they men paired up together in secret? :)

You gotta love these hypothetical trains of thought since they can go anywhere! What if we threw all the characters from NOLD/DAY/DAWN/DIARY into the mix over at Fiddlers Green? Who would have kicked ass, who would have dated who, etc? Personally, I think the Blade character in Land would have been a bit more standoffish and uncommunicative, and Bub would have gotten so annoyed at Big Daddy that he likely would have shot him in the head and made off with his girlfriend, but that's just me.

[Trin]

@Wyldwraith - I agree with all your what-ifs on Dawn. And the idea that Romero injected maximum human flaw. But I also think he had to inject maximum human flaw just to create the scenario in the first place.

I don't agree that Dawn had the most what-if scenarios. Day had plenty as well. In addition to the ones we've already explored - What if Logan wasn't using soldiers - or hid it better? What if John had stayed with Miguel? What if Miguel had gone homicidal instead of suicidal - would he have killed Rhodes? What then? Lots of possibilities.

Night was limited by their scenario and the timeframe. Land has too many setup/systemic problems to breed what-ifs. The what-ifs tend to center around things in the setup, not the actions. Diary was too linear for what-ifs. It should've been called Zombie Vignettes.

@Yojimbo - You're right about Steele forcing Miguel to the corral. But I still think it is Rhodes pushing them to the point Miguel cannot say no. I get that sense later when Sarah is confronted by Rhodes about drugging his man. Rhodes didn't care about the man's mental or physical state. He was more concerned that Miguel was getting some.

[JDFP]

Another thing about NOTLD, that was clearly expressed in NOTLD '90, the thought that maybe they could have just sent a few of the people (say, Ben and Tom) out with flashlights to simply "walk" past the ghouls and be damned careful in doing so to go get help. These were dead ghouls that could barely walk much less keep up with people speed-walking (unlike ghouls from other films that magically have super-human strength and the ability to sprint) -- if they had simply walked past the ghouls they probably could have made it to some other survivors and said: "Hey, we have some folks and a girl locked in the cellar of a house a few miles back. Can you help?"

I find it hard to believe no one thought to look for a flashlight or two and just simply walk away from being barricaded together. Fear paralyzes, and I'd say no one wanted to leave from the house, but they would have probably fared much better had they done this simple thing.

j.p.

[Yojimbo]

Another thing about NOTLD, that was clearly expressed in NOTLD '90, the thought that maybe they could have just sent a few of the people (say, Ben and Tom) out with flashlights to simply "walk" past the ghouls and be damned careful in doing so to go get help. These were dead ghouls that could barely walk much less keep up with people speed-walking (unlike ghouls from other films that magically have super-human strength and the ability to sprint) -- if they had simply walked past the ghouls they probably could have made it to some other survivors and said: "Hey, we have some folks and a girl locked in the cellar of a house a few miles back. Can you help?"

I find it hard to believe no one thought to look for a flashlight or two and just simply walk away from being barricaded together. Fear paralyzes, and I'd say no one wanted to leave from the house, but they would have probably fared much better had they done this simple thing.

j.p.


This, of course, assumes that there were actually flashlights in the farmhouse, and that those flashlights had batteries that were working.

My family always kept flashlights around the house for emergencies when I was growing up. One night during a power outage we realized that flashlights are no good if the batteries are dead and you have no spares. Not the best time to find out your flashlight doesn't work, but I have heard that what my family had experienced was not an unusual event.


In NOLD, both versions, I think that they were looking all over that house for junk to survive with, and if there were working flashlights discovered it would have been scrounged and added to the scavanged supplies.

[Monrozombi]

Plus in both films it was night time and they were all in a semi-unfamiliar location with the exception of Tom. So staying put until daylight would make sense, at least you can see the zombies in the day light and stand a better chance of survival

[Wyldwraith]

Who needs flashlights?
If, as evidenced by Barbara in NotLD '90 one can walk up to zombies while in a wide open area, have a good cry while staring at one inches away, and completely control its movements with gentle prodding from a revolver barrel you're going to tell me Ben, Cooper or even that idiot Tommy couldn'tve done the same thing?

Night '90 is sort of a bad example, because the zombies were SO slow/non-reactive that a five year old with the sense to avoid the undead could've toddled away from them for some time.

That said, I completely understand the IMPULSE to want to stay inside the farmhouse. It's night, a time that people feel less confident/easy in their movements at ANY time, and everyone inside has been traumatized/had their world upended by the inarguable evidence that cannibal corpses were right that moment doing their best to get to and eat all of them alive. Combine those two factors and the decision to stay inside is understandable. Foolish, especially to remain on the ground floor when sabotaging that type of stairs could've been done in a 1/5th the time they put into barricading and re-barricading every entrance. Let the damned things get in! Who cares if two hundred of them mill around down on the ground floor and moan at you? You're safe as gold in Fort Knox in the unreachable upstairs, with the option to shimmy down the side of the house whenever you like the current dispersion of zombies at ground-level.

Look at the outside of the house as Barbara approaches it. There's a very solid-looking trellis along the side of the house nearly up to a 2nd story window, and a drainpipe that's somehow attached to a length of wood that's attached/raised up from the flat side of the house. Both provide relatively easy access to the ground, or you could even gather up all the sheets and tie one end around one leg of that huge hardwood 4-poster bed if you're looking for a 0% chance of sprain/miscellaneous ankle/knee/leg injury as you make your descent.

That, and as it turned out they could've just hung a sign from the 2nd story ala Dawn '04 and waited for the redneck cavalry to come save them. If they were smart they filled some containers with water before cutting themselves off from ground level and food isn't a concern for a 12-hour wait.

I also agree that you could pack at least 5 people into the cab of Ben's truck had they managed to refuel. Just have Barbara sit behind the seats, she's small enough. Then pile Judy on her boyfriend's lap in the passenger side seat and Mrs. Cooper on Cooper's lap squeezed in next to Bed who's driving. It would be cumbersome and awkwardly embarrassing to be reaching for the gearshift between Cooper's legs, but you can survive embarrassment when the alternative is getting eaten, blown up or shot to death. The dying/dead girl is the only one I couldn't find room inside for, but if the Coopers won't abandon her, or allow her to be placed in the bed of the truck, and even ride back there with her if they want, then to hell with them. Let them go hide in the basement and lock themselves in with their zombie daughter. Justice by any name...

I often wondered based on Barbara's ease of walking away, and Ben's successful movements after being tossed out of the truck, on the porch, and in general dodging and evading while Cooper made a power play to keep the door shut that if they'd have just taken the truck on fumes and used it to clear the immediate area early on especially, that it would've been even easier for all of them to walk to safety than it was for Barbara. I mean, it was obvious from the bodies and locations the rednecks were clearing that by no means were all the zombies for several miles in any direction focused on the farmhouse. Yes, they would've encountered one or a few from time to time, but the landscape was open enough to make escape via speed-walking laughably easy. Especially if they had all the guns at their disposal.

Finally, I agree that the setup of Fiddler Green security and its portrayal would turn any What-Ifs about Land into a multi-faceted security critique.