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View Full Version : FACT CHECK: No 'death panel' in health care bill



darth los
14-Aug-2009, 03:02 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090811/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_end_of_life_q_a




I know you guys are really smart people but there's alot of misinformation out there when it comes to proposed healthcare legislation. Many are confused, perhaps you know some of them.

This is an important issue to me so I'm just trying to do my civic duty. If it doesn't pass atleast my conscience will be clear knowing I did everything I could as a citizen. Now, knowing all the facts and if you still choose to disagree this is the U.S. after all and that's totally fine but atleast it will be an informed decison. Thnx.






WASHINGTON – Former Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin says the health care overhaul bill would set up a "death panel." Federal bureaucrats would play God, ruling on whether ailing seniors are worth enough to society to deserve life-sustaining medical care. Palin and other critics are wrong.

Nothing in the legislation would carry out such a bleak vision. The provision that has caused the uproar would instead authorize Medicare to pay doctors for counseling patients about end-of-life care, if the patient wishes. Here are some questions and answers on the controversy:

Q: Does the health care legislation bill promote "mercy killing," or euthanasia?

A: No.

Q: Then what's all the fuss about?

A: A provision in the House bill written by Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore., would allow Medicare to pay doctors for voluntary counseling sessions that address end-of-life issues. The conversations between doctor and patient would include living wills, making a close relative or a trusted friend your health care proxy, learning about hospice as an option for the terminally ill, and information about pain medications for people suffering chronic discomfort.

The sessions would be covered every five years, more frequently if someone is gravely ill.

Q: Is anything required?

Monsignor Charles Fahey, 76, a Catholic priest who is chairman of the board of the National Council on Aging, a nonprofit service and advocacy group, says no.

"We have to make decisions that are deliberative about our health care at every moment," Fahey said. "What I have said is that if I cannot say another prayer, if I cannot give or get another hug, and if I cannot have another martini — then let me go."

Q: Does the bill advocate assisted suicide?

A: No. It would block funds for counseling that presents suicide or assisted suicide as an option.

Q: Who supports the provision?

A: The American Medical Association, the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization and Consumers Union are among the groups supporting the provision. AARP, the seniors' lobby, is taking out print advertisements this week that label as false the claim that the legislation will empower the government to take over life-and-death decisions from individuals.

Q: Should the federal government be getting involved with living wills and end-of-life questions — decisions that are highly personal and really difficult?

A: It already is.

The government requires hospitals to ask adult patients if they have a living will, or "advance directive." If the patient doesn't have one, and wants one, the hospital has to provide assistance. The mandate on hospitals was instituted during a Republican administration, in 1992, under President George H.W. Bush.

Q: How does a living will work, and how is it different from a health care proxy?

A: A living will — also called an advance directive — spells out a patient's wishes if he or she becomes incapacitated. Often people say they don't want to be kept alive on breathing machines if their condition is terminal and irreversible.

A health care proxy empowers another person to make medical decisions should the patient become incapacitated.

There's also a power-of-attorney, which authorizes another person to make financial decisions for someone who is incapacitated.

Such legal documents have become standard estate-planning tools in the last twenty years.

Q: Would the health overhaul legislation change the way people now deal with making end-of-life decisions?

A: It very well could.

Supporters of the provision say the main consequence would be to formally bring doctors into a discussion that now takes place mainly among family members and lawyers.

"When you execute a legal document with your lawyer, it ends up in your files and in the lawyer's files," said John Rother, a senior policy and strategy adviser for AARP. "Unless the doctor is part of this discussion, it's unlikely that your wishes will be respected. The doctor will be the one involved in any decisions."

The American Medical Association says involving doctors is simple common sense.

"There has been a lot of misinformation about the advance care planning provisions in the bill," AMA President Dr. James Rohack said in a statement. "It's plain, old-fashioned medical care."

Q: So why are some people upset?

Some social conservatives say stronger language is needed to protect seniors from being pressured into signing away their rights to medical treatment in a moment of depression or despair.

The National Right to Life Committee opposes the provision as written.

"I'm not aware of 'death panels' in the bill," said David O'Steen, executive director of the group. "I'm not aware of anything that says you will be hauled before a government bureaucrat. But we are concerned ... it doesn't take a lot to push a vulnerable person — perhaps unwittingly — to give up their right to life-sustaining treatment."

The White House says it is countering false claims with a "reality check" page on its Web site, http://www.whitehouse.gov.

___

On the Net:

White House site on health care claims: http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/







http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090811/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_end_of_life_q_a









:cool:

3pidemiC
14-Aug-2009, 03:16 PM
But but but but but...

He gonna turn this country into socialism with his muslim ways.

DjfunkmasterG
14-Aug-2009, 03:54 PM
And the republicans wonder why they are still stuck in the stone age, and their poll numbers have decreased more even when Obama's have dropped as well. it is because of the constant barrage of misinformation coupled with scare tactics.


Is the RNC sure they want PALIN to run in 2012? If She is first choice youc an guarantee with the most certainty that Obama will be in office until 2017, which doesn't bother me as I did support him and would vote for him again.

However, i am sick how they come out of the gates guns a blazing, even about the Economy... lets get fucking real here folks, its going to take a lot more than 7 month for Obama to fix 8 years worth of Damage.

People had no problem giving dumbass Bush 8 years to fuck the country up, but when a black man is elected president, because he can't clean it up in 2 weeks they're ready to lynch him.

WTF?:rolleyes:

thxleo
14-Aug-2009, 04:13 PM
I don't understand why anyone would trust the government to run our healthcare. Just going to the post office is a pain in the ass and the office here in Monroeville is ALWAYS backed up to the door with lines, no matter what time you go. The government screws up just about everything they touch, look at what is going on with social security for example.
Congressman John Conyers admitted that the bill is unreadable without a team of lawyers and that he has not even read it. http://blog.heritage.org/2009/07/27/video-rep-conyers-d-mi-admits-health-care-bill-is-indecipherable/
There is no doubt that our system has issues and concerns, of course, but I want the government to stay out of my life as much as possible.

darth los
14-Aug-2009, 04:35 PM
There is no doubt that our system has issues and concerns, of course, but I want the government to stay out of my life as much as possible.

Agreed. We all know there's a problem it's just how do we fix it to everyone's satisfaction. Bills go through numerous changes before passage. But let's atleast talk about it, ya know?


Because anyway you slice it the the way the insurance companies are running it is a big clusterfuck anyway. I've heard some politicians say that they don't want the gov't "rationing care". Excuse me? Isn't that exactly what the insurance companies do now, picking and choosing what type of care they will cover?


This is really twighlight zone logic: if your a sick person we won't cover you. Well, aren't those exactly the people who need it the most?


Gov't should stay out of our personal business,yes. However, (now we'll probably differ on this or maybe not) I believe they should make sure all of it's citizens are being reated fairly.




I'm not in favor of any plan in particular. I only want all Americans to be taken care of despite color, economic straits or pre-existing conditions.








:cool:

BillyRay
14-Aug-2009, 05:20 PM
Up until now the big arguments against a Govt-run system have been "You could wait months for a procedure" or "I wouldn't be able to choose my own doctor" or "The paperwork and bureaucratic red tape would be too confusing".

Of course, if you don't have health insurance (or have poor coverage), like so many millions in this country,
You're gonna wait a LOT longer for tests and treatment, anyway.(If you can get access to it at all.)
And who has their "own doctor" these days? The best you get through most employer insurance or HMO is a stranger in a tie and labcoat who'll meet with you for 15 minutes to review the test results that low-paid technicians took for them. And then arrange for further tests.
Red tape? I've got pretty comprehensive health insurance where I work, and I still can't make heads or tails out of my coverage paperwork.

The notion that the private sector can run anything better than the government is simply propaganda. But that argument is better covered by other folks in the Capitalist thread.

We're 30 years behind the rest of the developed world in providing access to health care for all of our citizens. Nobody should have to become destitute because they got sick.

thxleo
14-Aug-2009, 05:23 PM
Gov't should stay out of our personal business,yes. However, (now we'll probably differ on this or maybe not) I believe they should make sure all of it's citizens are being reated fairly.




I'm not in favor of any plan in particular. I only want all Americans to be taken care of despite color, economic straits or pre-existing conditions.



:cool:

I totally agree that the government should make sure it's taxpayers are treated failry, of course so. I find myself becoming more and more paranoid as I get older. I mean, who is telling us the truth? Does either side really even know what the hell is going on? I long for the days when I was a teenager and I didn't give a damn about republicans, democrats, conservatives, or liberals.

SRP76
14-Aug-2009, 05:26 PM
I'm less concerned with "death panels" than just how all this is supposedly going to be paid for.

darth los
14-Aug-2009, 05:57 PM
I totally agree that the government should make sure it's taxpayers are treated failry, of course so. I find myself becoming more and more paranoid as I get older. I mean, who is telling us the truth? Does either side really even know what the hell is going on? I long for the days when I was a teenager and I didn't give a damn about republicans, democrats, conservatives, or liberals.


No, they're both full of it. We need atleast one more party to: "give them competition and keep them honest". That's the whole rationale behind a public option isn't it? To give the health insurance companies compitition? So what's good for the goose...


But then again that's actually asking politicians to practice what they preach. :rolleyes:


I'm less concerned with "death panels" than just how all this is supposedly going to be paid for.

Exactly, but then that would be a constructive argument which doesn't ever work in this country. Fear tactics work so much better. And as I stated to Thxleo, both sides are full of shit which illustrates the need for political reform as well. The dems say if you vote republican they're going to take your freedoms away and the reps say if you vote democratic you will die. WTF is that!?!


The real losers are the American people who end up voting against their own best interests based on visceral reactions to things like social issues instead of informed decision making.




Up until now the big arguments against a Govt-run system have been "You could wait months for a procedure" or "I wouldn't be able to choose my own doctor" or "The paperwork and bureaucratic red tape would be too confusing".

Of course, if you don't have health insurance (or have poor coverage), like so many millions in this country,
You're gonna wait a LOT longer for tests and treatment, anyway.(If you can get access to it at all.)
And who has their "own doctor" these days? The best you get through most employer insurance or HMO is a stranger in a tie and labcoat who'll meet with you for 15 minutes to review the test results that low-paid technicians took for them. And then arrange for further tests.
Red tape? I've got pretty comprehensive health insurance where I work, and I still can't make heads or tails out of my coverage paperwork.

The notion that the private sector can run anything better than the government is simply propaganda. But that argument is better covered by other folks in the Capitalist thread.

We're 30 years behind the rest of the developed world in providing access to health care for all of our citizens. Nobody should have to become destitute because they got sick.



I totally agree. This systemd doesn't work for anybody but the people who profit off off it. Which is the reason why it's so hard to displace them. Their consolodated wealth is almost too much to overcome.








:cool:

DjfunkmasterG
14-Aug-2009, 06:03 PM
I don't understand why anyone would trust the government to run our healthcare. Just going to the post office is a pain in the ass and the office here in Monroeville is ALWAYS backed up to the door with lines, no matter what time you go. The government screws up just about everything they touch, look at what is going on with social security for example.
Congressman John Conyers admitted that the bill is unreadable without a team of lawyers and that he has not even read it. http://blog.heritage.org/2009/07/27/video-rep-conyers-d-mi-admits-health-care-bill-is-indecipherable/
There is no doubt that our system has issues and concerns, of course, but I want the government to stay out of my life as much as possible.


Scoail Security was stable until Bush Jr. robbed it blind to fund the IRAQ war. Clinton had it stabliized until 2020, not anymore thanks to the communist regime that has dominated washington from 2001 -2009 (Bush)

thxleo
14-Aug-2009, 06:11 PM
Scoail Security was stable until Bush Jr. robbed it blind to fund the IRAQ war. Clinton had it stabliized until 2020, not anymore thanks to the communist regime that has dominated washington from 2001 -2009 (Bush)

Could you please explain in detail how Bush ran a communist regime?

darth los
14-Aug-2009, 06:13 PM
Scoail Security was stable until Bush Jr. robbed it blind to fund the IRAQ war. Clinton had it stabliized until 2020, not anymore thanks to the communist regime that has dominated washington from 2001 -2009 (Bush)


(cheney?)




Now, now let's keep it civil. That doesn't help any. It's just like the other side calling Obama a Socialist. It's a non stater to a civil debate. Unless your not interested in that sort of thing. (insurance co.'s)



But yeah, the Bush administration did rob peter to pay paul and that's not being uncivil it's just a fact.








:cool:

DjfunkmasterG
14-Aug-2009, 09:29 PM
Could you please explain in detail how Bush ran a communist regime?

Illegal Wiretapping, torture of detainees...

Same thing goes in many communist countries, such as Cuba and China.

BillyRay
14-Aug-2009, 09:47 PM
Illegal Wiretapping, torture of detainees...

Same thing goes in many communist countries, such as Cuba and China.

Granted, the regimes are (technically) Communist, but the behavior is Fascist. Or Totalitarian. Take your pick.

Methinks this confusion illustrates how Right-wing wags can get so much knee-jerk fear mongering from the word 'Socialist'.

major jay
14-Aug-2009, 10:33 PM
I'm just trying to do my civic duty. If it doesn't pass atleast my conscience will be clear knowing I did everything I could as a citizen

Your're one of the good ones!

Tricky
14-Aug-2009, 11:18 PM
Living in the UK as I do, we have a big head start on this nationalised health care thingy & you should look at how our system turned out as to whether you want the same or not. The whole thing for us started with good intentions & the NHS was a masterstroke for a long time,but within the last couple of decades it has gone rapidly downhill. Migrants with various illnesses/conditions from all over the world flock here seeking free treatment & of course the government wont turn anyone away, so us taxpayers are shelling out on expensive treatments for cancer,aids,typhoid,plague etc or on looking after pregnant illegal immigrants who have come here because they know they have a better chance of surviving childbirth & being looked after for free in good ol' blighty. The NHS may have honorable intentions by treating these people,but its us British working taxpayers who are shelling out on this, then receiving sub-standard care ourselves when we need it because the system is overloaded!

Its unfair to blame all the NHS's problems on immigrants though, another problem is that its become swamped with managers & bureaucrats who waste hundreds of thousands of pounds on crappy modern artwork for the hospitals or their own salaries & a whole other long list of needless costs! And in recent years the NHS has started funding cosmetic surgery for gender swaps & IVF treatment for childless couples which i disagree with, as swapping sex or even having kids is a lifestyle choice & should not be taxpayer funded!if somebody is that desperate for children (and I would hardly call being unable to have kids a life threatening condition that the state needs to pay for treatment of), or feels that they need to have their bits lopped off to become a woman/man ,then they should fund that themselves & not expect the taxpayer to stump up the bill! Then theres the whole postcode lottery thing where if you happen to live in a certain postcode you could be denied treatment for a life threatening illness, whereas someone with the same illness a few miles down the road in a different postcode would be granted the treatment with no questions asked!its a class war thing more than anything else.
A nationalised healthcare system is great in theory & they do have good intentions, and at ground level the staff are generally great & when you do get treatment you are normally well looked after despite the horror stories you sometimes read about (hey, i survived my hernia operation right?im still here & fully healed!) The trouble is that the system is wide open to abuse by the public themselves,illegal immigrants,druggies & by meddling government ministers & NHS managers, so that is something that Obama would need to prevent & regulate if he were to bring is a US NHS service.

thxleo
15-Aug-2009, 05:53 AM
Illegal Wiretapping, torture of detainees...

Same thing goes in many communist countries, such as Cuba and China.

The Bush administration could have not been further away from a communist regime - your accusation is totally absurd. If they were what you claim, then they would have completely controlled the media in all forms(newspapers, t.v., radio). They never defended themselves once against the things said about them and they never stopped anyone from ripping them. Oliver Stone made a movie about Bush while he was still in office!
Educate yourself on communism...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
Bush is literally "the end all, be all" to people like you Gary. One minute he is a dope. The next he is orchestrating the 9/11 attacks. The next he is an evil capitalist. Then he becomes a communist. Sounds like he is a chameleon.

Eyebiter
16-Aug-2009, 04:06 AM
http://www.robsright.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/2009-0717-soylentgreen-chri.jpg

thxleo
16-Aug-2009, 05:20 AM
http://www.robsright.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/2009-0717-soylentgreen-chri.jpg

:lol:

darth los
18-Aug-2009, 05:56 PM
The Bush administration could have not been further away from a communist regime - your accusation is totally absurd. If they were what you claim, then they would have completely controlled the media in all forms(newspapers, t.v., radio). They never defended themselves once against the things said about them and they never stopped anyone from ripping them. Oliver Stone made a movie about Bush while he was still in office!
Educate yourself on communism...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
Bush is literally "the end all, be all" to people like you Gary. One minute he is a dope. The next he is orchestrating the 9/11 attacks. The next he is an evil capitalist. Then he becomes a communist. Sounds like he is a chameleon.

This is exactly the reason why I told DJ to chill with the name calling. No, I'm not his mother and he can say what he wants. But it tends to degrade the conversation so instead of talking substance like we were in earlier posts, people get offended and it turns into name calling .


You just wrote a pretty healthy post and it didn't move the dialougue forward one iota.


Just pointing out why name calling is a non stater to productive conversation.

I'll keep my nose out of it now. thnx.








:cool:

thxleo
18-Aug-2009, 10:12 PM
This is exactly the reason why I told DJ to chill with the name calling. No, I'm not his mother and he can say what he wants. But it tends to degrade the conversation so instead of talking substance like we were in earlier posts, people get offended and it turns into name calling .


You just wrote a pretty healthy post and it didn't move the dialougue forward one iota.


Just pointing out why name calling is a non stater to productive conversation.

I'll keep my nose out of it now. thnx.




:cool:

I appreciate the comments, but I didn't call him any names. Gary however, ALWAYS reverts to his true nature and throws out insults.

DjfunkmasterG
18-Aug-2009, 10:51 PM
I appreciate the comments, but I didn't call him any names. Gary however, ALWAYS reverts to his true nature and throws out insults.

Yep, because of how close minded you are, and how you like to spin everything in favor of the right wing to fit your agenda.

thxleo
19-Aug-2009, 12:14 AM
Yep, because of how close minded you are, and how you like to spin everything in favor of the right wing to fit your agenda.

I think your post pretty much speaks for itself Gary. I'll say this, at least your honest about your ignorance.