Doctors Had to Let Woman Die

[darth los]

http://news.aol.com/article/coroner-says-doctors-had-to-let-kerrie/697884?icid=main|hp-laptop|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fnews.aol.com%2Fartic le%2Fcoroner-says-doctors-had-to-let-kerrie%2F697884



:cool:

[Mike70]

legality aside, the morality being displayed here is shocking and disturbing. if i read this article correctly this woman wasn't terminally ill, she simply wanted to take her own life through suicide. mmm, sorry that probably means she was seriously depressed or had some other mental issue and aside from her protestations, she should've been treated.

that is a really horrid precedent to be setting. i am all for assisted suicide or suicide itself when end of life issues are involved; a person doesn't want to die in agonzing pain or shrivel up to nothing. in those cases, let the person go and die with some dignity. but to allow an otherwise healthy person, who just might be going through a rough patch in their lives, to commit suicide while doctors stand there and watch is fucking ghastly.

[strayrider]

I thought health care professionals were supposed to restrain suicidal patients regardless of any "notes" that might have been written. Something doesn't seem right about this.

:stunned:

-stray-

[SymphonicX]

They were obviously worried about being sued...

This is a total grey area. I say people are in control of their lives - let them do what they want. My only objection to this situation is that the woman in question chose not to jump off a bridge but to swallow anti-freeze and then call an ambulance. That took away vital resources to those who want to live, and as with most suicides, it was a selfish act.

I think the doctors were right not to treat her though - the bottom line is she doesn't want to live - and no one here, on this board, or in the world actually, have any right to scrutinise her quality of life. She made a concious, adult decision, whilst still quite selfish, was hers to make and ultimately, you can't force someone into psychotherapy or counselling to make them better.


I thought health care professionals were supposed to restrain suicidal patients regardless of any "notes" that might have been written. Something doesn't seem right about this.

:stunned:

-stray-

If a person refuses care then the doctors cannot treat them. They can only usually initiate resusitation techniques when the person involved has passed out. My girlfriend works at a respite for depressed or troubled people and part of the rules there is that if someone takes an overdose and refuses an ambulance, she can only call one when that person is passed out unconcious, as it then becomes the liability of the place she's working for.

In terms of this case, the person in question had already planned for this situation and wrote her note accordingly.

[Mike70]

no one here, on this board, or in the world actually, have any right to scrutinise her quality of life. She made a concious, adult decision, whilst still quite selfish, was hers to make and ultimately, you can't force someone into psychotherapy or counselling to make them better.


you have absolutely no basis for saying any of these things. rational, sane people do not just suddenly decide to kill themselves. suicidal thoughts and actions are, by their very nature, irrational and symptoms of a deep, deep mental disturbance. period. please learn something about human psychology before throwing out these illogical ramblings.

so i guess in your book, it would be perfectly fine for some 18 year old kid whose boyfriend has just left her, to drink anti-freeze then refuse treatment all under the fallacy that it's "her decision."

the act of suicide is irrational. there is no way that a person can decide to kill themselves and then call it a sane, measured and reasoned decision.

[Andy]

Well now i can understand what symphonicX is saying, im first aider at work and we're told in training that if someone says "no i do not want a ambulance", you cannot call one no matter how bad the injury unless they pass out.

Its sad mike i know but if someone dosnt want treating, you cant force them to have treatment.

[SymphonicX]

you have absolutely no basis for saying any of these things. rational, sane people do not just suddenly decide to kill themselves. suicidal thoughts and actions are, by their very nature, irrational and symptoms of a deep, deep mental disturbance. period. please learn something about human psychology before throwing out these illogical ramblings.

so i guess in your book, it would be perfectly fine for some 18 year old kid whose boyfriend has just left her, to drink anti-freeze then refuse treatment all under the fallacy that it's "her decision."

the act of suicide is irrational. there is no way that a person can decide to kill themselves and then call it a sane, measured and reasoned decision.

What I'm saying is that regardless of your personal view of suicide - you can't scrutinise her quality of life. You also can't scrutinise the life of someone you've just made up.

Please don't patronise me Mike70, there's no "book" as you call it. I've already said this is a hugely grey area. Suicide just doesn't come under the veil of "deep mental disturbance" and that's it. It goes MUCH deeper than that. It takes a lot of contributing factors for this sort of situation to happen - from early childhood all the way to their death, it's never going to be a case of "she only killed herself because her bf dumped her". Besides most suicide attempts in that vein are simply cries for help.

My point still stands, there are so many contributing factors to a suicide that you're barely even skimming the surface, and you obviously see this in a very basic black and white fashion.

So what's your solution? Save this person, then keep them on "suicide watch" in hospital, force feed them counselling and CBT?! Let's just lock 'em up instead...save us from discussing the issue, we can just lock 'em away and forget about it. I fail to see what you're trying to get at? What should we do, with someone who is obviously at such a bad point in their life that they see no reason to live - you can't make someone value their life can you? Super powers you're not letting on about? (/sarcasm)

Back to a strand of reality though - bottom line is, you may not agree with suicide as being the right choice - and I'd agree with you 100% - but unfortunately, you, me and many other people are completely damn different and you cannot account for all the things that people go through, and you certainly cannot force people to live if they don't want to.

No one suggested this is a rational thing - but I fail to see how that's relevant. This woman walked into a hospital with a note detailing her realisation of what was going to happen, quoting death statistics for drinking anti-freeze, and her reasons for going to hospital in the first place. Whatever you say about that, it takes a strong presence of mind to do something like that.

As I said earlier, my beef is really the use of services for this, putting the docs in a very strange and uncomfortable position in the first place.

Jeese.

[Mike70]

Its sad mike i know but if someone dosnt want treating, you cant force them to have treatment.

in the UK maybe but over here not so much. this person would've been treated, her wishes aside, because a person attempting suicide is not considered to be in their right mind and not able to make those sorts of decisions.




this is how it works over here:


A patient's right to refuse treatment, whether exercised directly or by proxy, is not an absolute right. Many state courts have identified four social interests that must be balanced against a person's right to be free of unwanted medical intervention. These are the preservation of life, the prevention of suicide, the protection of third parties, and the preservation of the ethical integrity of the medical profession. In most treatment refusal cases, these state interests are not found to outweigh a competent adult's right to refuse unwanted medical intervention. However, in some cases, the right to refuse treatment is overridden. An example of this is a court-ordered blood transfusion to save the life of a single-parent Jehovah's Witness who would leave minor children as wards of the state if life-saving transfusion is withheld. In cases such as this, many courts have held that the state's interest in protecting the children outweighs the parent's right to refuse unwanted transfusion, even though the reason for refusing is based on a deeply held religious belief.

i pointed out the word "competent" in bold because under US law a person trying to kill themselves is presumed to be incapable of making decisions in their own best interest.

as i pointed out above, this silly idea means that anyone whose boyfriend breaks up with them would be free to kill themselves - hey, it's your wish. that isn't any sort of society that any decent person should want to be a part of.

[SymphonicX]

Still waiting for this shining example of what you would do with a person all set to kill themselves?

Watch them day and night, keep them out of reach of knives, hankies, blankets, rope, metal of any kind, springs, razors, pills, mirrors, glass, heights, heat, gas, electricity, antifreeze?

I mean really. Ironic how irrationality has been called into question.

[Zombo]

If somebody wants to go, let 'em go, I say. Life can be pretty rotten sometimes, everybody oughta be able to check out when they're tired of it.

[Danny]

If somebody wants to go, let 'em go, I say. Life can be pretty rotten sometimes, everybody oughta be able to check out when they're tired of it.

my mother tried to commit suicide due to sever depression 2 months ago when she got very drunk alone and im inclined to disagree with you there. Unless someone is a prisoner in there own body so to speak then i can understand, "being tired" is never a reason to kill yourself.

[Mike70]

Still waiting for this shining example of what you would do with a person all set to kill themselves?
Watch them day and night, keep them out of reach of knives, hankies, blankets, rope, metal of any kind, springs, razors, pills, mirrors, glass, heights, heat, gas, electricity, antifreeze?

I mean really. Ironic how irrationality has been called into question.


the snide ass nature of this fucking post is uncalled for and has climbed under my fucking skin.

and you've never answered about my example of a teenager whose boyfriend has broken up her. she should simply be allowed to kill herself because it's her choice?


but i'll answer:

many, many people attempt suicide, are treated for the underlying cause of whatever it was that drove them to that act of desperation. they recover and they move on, glad that somebody just didn't stand idly fucking by with the excuse that it was their "personal choice" to kill themselves because they were suffering from depression. i know of a couple of people i deeply care about who would be fucking dead if the decision were left up to people like you.

there's your answer, smart ass.

on another note: do us both a favor. don't fucking respond to anymore of my fucking posts ever fucking again. i have no wish to have any fucking thing to do with you. you're dead to me.

i try to engage in a reasoned goddamn discussion of this and you come back with that snide ass, sarcastic bullshit.

fuck you.

sorry to everyone one else but i have not been this irritated on here in a long, long time. i take this subject very seriously and have zero tolerance for this kind of crap in what ought to be a serious discussion. you have zero idea about what kind of nerve you have struck.

[strayrider]

Watch them day and night, keep them out of reach of knives, hankies, blankets, rope, metal of any kind, springs, razors, pills, mirrors, glass, heights, heat, gas, electricity, antifreeze?

This would be a good start. Followed by Psychiatric treatment.

-stray-

[SymphonicX]

the snide ass nature of this fucking post is uncalled for and has climbed under my fucking skin.

and you've never answered about my example of a teenager whose boyfriend has broken up her. she should simply be allowed to kill herself because it's her choice?


but i'll answer:

many, many people attempt suicide, are treated for the underlying cause of whatever it was that drove them to that act of desperation. they recover and they move on, glad that somebody just didn't stand idly fucking by with the excuse that it was their "personal choice" to kill themselves because they were suffering from depression. i know of a couple of people i deeply care about who would be fucking dead if the decision were left up to people like you.

there's your answer, smart ass.

on another note: do us both a favor. don't fucking respond to anymore of my fucking posts ever fucking again. i have no wish to have any fucking thing to do with you. you're dead to me.

i try to engage in a reasoned goddamn discussion of this and you come back with that snide ass, sarcastic bullshit.

fuck you.

sorry to everyone one else but i have not been this irritated on here in a long, long time. i take this subject very seriously and have zero tolerance for this kind of crap in what ought to be a serious discussion. you have zero idea about what kind of nerve you have struck.

Right, this blatant attack is uncalled for. If you wanna keep throwing profanities at me and get into a pissing contest we can do it in PM.

I answered all your points and let me remind you I wasn't the first person to be "snide".


please learn something about human psychology before throwing out these illogical ramblings.

Grow up dude, its just a webboard. I mean I thought I was highly strung...

Anyway I PM'd you to sort this out Mike....we don't need to go down this road so just so everyone's aware I'm willing to do whatever it takes to smooth over the cracks.




This would be a good start. Followed by Psychiatric treatment.

-stray-


You can't fix some people my friend, you certainly can't force them to be happy.

[Yojimbo]

Obviously this is a highly charged issue and people have very strong feelings on this matter that are likely preset in stone and are unlikely to be changed regardless of what others might think or say. Abortion, capital punishment, Dodgers vs. Angels, these arguments often get very heated.

Interesting case, btw.

[SymphonicX]

Obviously this is a highly charged issue and people have very strong feelings on this matter that are likely preset in stone and are unlikely to be changed regardless of what others might think or say. Abortion, capital punishment, Dodgers vs. Angels, these arguments often get very heated.

Interesting case, btw.

You forgot to add Marmite....

Wait do you lot even get Marmite over there? Think this issue is divisive? Marmite can split a room of friends right down the middle!

[EvilNed]

If we're discussing capital punishment, abortion or any of that other stuff, you'll be sure I'll throw myself into the fray. But this? This topic has bad news written all over it...

I can say this: If I were one of the doctors, I'd probably keep reminding me of my Hippocratic oath.

[SymphonicX]

That's an interesting view that I didn't consider - how does Hippocrates see this?! surely that very notion is something the docs should refer to in this situation? I don't know it inside out....but they should!

[EvilNed]

All I know is that Dr. McCoy would have done his best.

[Danny]

All I know is that Dr. McCoy would have done his best.

word mu'a-fucker.

[Yojimbo]

You forgot to add Marmite....

Wait do you lot even get Marmite over there? Think this issue is divisive? Marmite can split a room of friends right down the middle!
Funny that you mention: Been trying to find Marmite or Vegemite here in Los Angeles for quite a while now - curious about what all the noise is about - but the usual venues have been out. Might be the best, or the grossest thing ever, but I just have to try this. :lol:

[EvilNed]

Funny that you mention: Been trying to find Marmite or Vegemite here in Los Angeles for quite a while now - curious about what all the noise is about - but the usual venues have been out. Might be the best, or the grossest thing ever, but I just have to try this. :lol:

If I had to choose between marmite and cyanide, I'd pick cyanide.

[capncnut]

If I had to choose between marmite and cyanide, I'd pick cyanide.
You're having a laugh, aincha? Marmite/Vegemite is fucking lush. I spread it on two slices of Holy Ghost every morning.

[AcesandEights]

Jesus, am I glad I didn't start off my Monday morning reading this thread. As far as the particulars of the issue, I usually tend to bend towards a person's right to self-determination, but really...there's better ways to commit suicide I would imagine, and certainly ways that are less likely of putting other's in the vise of such a shitty decision.


I spread it on two slices of Holy Ghost every morning.

I take it by way of your rhyming slang, sir, that you in fact mean toast.

I'm on to you, all! :shifty:

[MoonSylver]

I take it by way of your rhyming slang, sir, that you in fact mean toast.

I'm on to you, all! :shifty:

Way to show that you're "down with the kids" MC McFunky Fresh!:p

[strayrider]

As far as the particulars of the issue, I usually tend to bend towards a person's right to self-determination, but really...there's better ways to commit suicide I would imagine, and certainly ways that are less likely of putting other's in the vise of such a shitty decision.

I have a gut feeling that this woman's calling for an ambulance was a sub-conscious call for help. It doesn't matter what she wrote. She did not really want to die. After all, you go to a hospital because you want to live.

Right?

Ultimately there should be some sort of regulation about this. If you attempt suicide, then call for help (regardless of the reason) you give up your right to self-determination simply because you have now gotten someone else involved. You don't call people whose profession involves saving lives and then instruct them to do nothing so that you can die comfortable. That is insane (and insane people cannot make wise self-determination choices).

-stray-

[AcesandEights]

Ultimately there should be some sort of regulation about this. If you attempt suicide, then call for help (regardless of the reason) you give up your right to self-determination simply because you have now gotten someone else involved. You don't call people whose profession involves saving lives and then instruct them to do nothing so that you can die comfortable. That is insane (and insane people cannot make wise self-determination choices).



Really good points, Stray. I think this is probably the best way to approach such a situation. I wonder how that jives with the law both here and in the UK, it certainly is a convincing argument.

[darth los]

I have a gut feeling that this woman's calling for an ambulance was a sub-conscious call for help. It doesn't matter what she wrote. She did not really want to die. After all, you go to a hospital because you want to live.

Right?

Ultimately there should be some sort of regulation about this. If you attempt suicide, then call for help (regardless of the reason) you give up your right to self-determination simply because you have now gotten someone else involved. You don't call people whose profession involves saving lives and then instruct them to do nothing so that you can die comfortable. That is insane (and insane people cannot make wise self-determination choices).

-stray-



Well, that's apparently a loophole in the law which i have a feeling Parlament will be addressing very soon, because where there's one...


:cool:

[Yojimbo]

You're having a laugh, aincha? Marmite/Vegemite is fucking lush. I spread it on two slices of Holy Ghost every morning.
See this is what I am seeking. Here in the US a lot of breakfast foods are sweet, almost sickenly so. Pancakes, waffles, sweet rolls, a lot of the boxed cereals, all much to sweet for me in the morning. Havin heard of the savory, salty and mineral goodness of Vegimite/Marmite, I think that I would prefer this with my morning coffee to the sweet crap.

[AcesandEights]

See this is what I am seeking. Here in the US a lot of breakfast foods are sweet, almost sickenly so. Pancakes, waffles, sweet rolls, a lot of the boxed cereals, all much to sweet for me in the morning. Havin heard of the savory, salty and mineral goodness of Vegimite/Marmite, I think that I would prefer this with my morning coffee to the sweet crap.

Philistine!

If you don't want to taste the sweet with your breakfast so much, just eat some sausage like any other red blooded, artery clotted American :)

[capncnut]

See this is what I am seeking. Here in the US a lot of breakfast foods are sweet, almost sickenly so. Pancakes, waffles, sweet rolls, a lot of the boxed cereals, all much to sweet for me in the morning. Havin heard of the savory, salty and mineral goodness of Vegimite/Marmite, I think that I would prefer this with my morning coffee to the sweet crap.
Bang on, Jimbo. Marmite on toast goes hand in hand with coffee. Twins. Like horse and cart. ;)

[Danny]

in 3 pages weve gone from "assisted suicide" to "marmite love it or hate it?"



This is why this is my homepage :lol:

[SymphonicX]

I have a gut feeling that this woman's calling for an ambulance was a sub-conscious call for help. It doesn't matter what she wrote. She did not really want to die. After all, you go to a hospital because you want to live.

Right?

Ultimately there should be some sort of regulation about this. If you attempt suicide, then call for help (regardless of the reason) you give up your right to self-determination simply because you have now gotten someone else involved. You don't call people whose profession involves saving lives and then instruct them to do nothing so that you can die comfortable. That is insane (and insane people cannot make wise self-determination choices).

-stray-

Agree with pretty much everything you said :)

---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:53 PM ----------

I think we should have an aid-relief for our American buddies who can't get Marmite...we can send packages with the red cross on it etc...

Seriously I couldn't imagine eating sweet syrup laced pancakes for breakfast....gotta be savoury!!

[Exatreides]

As both a Medic in the Army and an EMT in the streets I can tell you...

You respect a DNR, if they have a copy of a DNR on them, or in the system that is current. You do not under any circumstance short of Moses coming down and parting the document with a stream of firey piss attempt to resusiate.

It's not an easy thing to, but you just have to do it. Breaking a DNR you can loose not only your cert, but also be sued to hell for it as well. Don't forget that the majority of them are for wittle old ladies from weningrad who have 3 different types of cancer and have already had 3 broken ribs from chest compressions in the past.