Was Harry Cooper a racist and/or terrible person? [Archive]

JDFP

15-Oct-2009, 04:54 PM

My own opinion of Harry Cooper (speaking only of NOTLD '68) is that he was a frightened and scared man who was concerned about his wife and daughter. I'm not saying Harry Cooper should win the "Husband/Father of the Year Award" by a longshot, but I don't see him as a terrible person or someone we should be overly ashamed of for his actions. He should have allowed Ben back into the house, but the man was terrified by fear. He should have been more co-operative with Ben, but he was scared and wanted the best for his family. Likewise, his outburst of: "Well you all can just stay up here!" was not really out of anger but more out of fear. If anything, I feel sympathetic to Harry. He may have been an ass in many ways, but I think he was far from a bad person.

However, what I've wondered for some time: Do you think that Cooper was an underlying racist? I use the term underlying because I don't really see any overlying statements on Harry's part that would point to him as being racist in the film.

If Ben had been white, do you think that Harry would have been more co-operative with him and that things may have come to a different outcome?

I do find it fascinating that in the era the film was made within we saw a black man and a white man struggling for control within a divided house -- one seeking leadership in one sphere and the other seeking leadership within another, and when the two spheres converge it was like potassium mixed with water.

This could be a very interesting conversation. :)

j.p.

octo7

15-Oct-2009, 05:05 PM

Cooper was right and Ben was the asshole, it took a lot of viewings over the the years for me to come to that realisation. I don't think he was racist, he was worried about his daughter and the lack of control he had over the situation.

However in night 90 he was definitely a racist.

EvilNed

15-Oct-2009, 05:06 PM

Now first off, Ben was written as a white character first, but Duane Jones got the role. However, despite that, I'm sure some changes were made and it doesn't really matter because we're not picking apart the script. We're picking apart the movie, and in the movie Ben is black.

As for the question? Yes, I do think he was. And I think Ben knew this. This probably wasn't the first time Ben was exposed to racism, and which is again probably why he, in turn, got so hostile towards Cooper. Cooper didn't like Ben and Ben realized why and in turn didn't like Cooper.

I feel kinda like you. Cooper isn't the only crook here, because a lot of situations could've been easily handled by Ben if he'd just ignored Cooper. But the two had a way of provoking each other.

bassman

15-Oct-2009, 05:29 PM

No racism, imo. Just two guys that both want to be in charge. It just so happens that one of them is black.

krakenslayer

15-Oct-2009, 05:29 PM

Was he A racist? No. He seems to almost go out of his way to avoid mentioning race at all.

Was there some level of racism in his attitude to Ben? Possibly. A lot of people have a little bit hidden under the surface. It doesn't necessarily make them an evil white supremacist, maybe they just exhibit some outdated stereotypical views, are uneasy around Black guys just because they don't know any, or whatever. It was worse like that in the 60s too.

But I don't this he was hateful or anything.

I don't really hold with the "Cooper was right" thing, though. Sure, it was ironic that the last hiding place for Ben was the cellar, but if everyone but Ben hadn't lost their balls and messed everything up, then upstairs would have worked out a LOT better - primarily because they would have been able to signal for help long before the posse got close enough to gun everyone down.

darth los

15-Oct-2009, 05:30 PM

If Ben had been white, do you think that Harry would have been more co-operative with him and that things may have come to a different outcome?

j.p.

No one can really say, we can only take what we know and apply it.

That being said there was only one other man in the house, Tom, and there wasn't nearly the amount of static in the relationship between he and Cooper.

Furthermore, the dynamic between Ben and Tom (a white and a black man) was just fine, imo.

So he could be a racist or he could also just be an asshole, or both.

It isn't that clear cut for me in the original but there are certainly some moments in the film where race plays a part, or at the very least hs racial overtones.

Anyone think Cooper might have been just a tad distrustful of Ben, a Big Black Man with a gun, the ONLY gun for that matter?

I think there's a much better case for Cooper being racist and just an overall asshole in the remake, imo.

:cool:

DubiousComforts

15-Oct-2009, 05:34 PM

Cooper was right and Ben was the asshole, it took a lot of viewings over the the years for me to come to that realisation.
In all those years of viewing, you must have missed the part where Cooper holds a loaded shotgun on Ben, leaving him to fend for himself. That had nothing to do with his family's safety or being scared and everything to do with being a vindictive prick.

Cooper wasn't nowhere even close to being "right" simply because a single door held against an onslaught of ghouls.

octo7

15-Oct-2009, 05:36 PM

I thought cooper was right because boarding up the house was a retarded idea, why so many entry holes when you can have just one and reinforce that? I also remember ben started the hostility too, he kept on about "why didnt you come help" over and over beyond the point of necessity and added ot the overall panic of the situation.

ben was responsible for the deaths of everyone in that house, including coopers little girl.

---------- Post added at 06:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:35 PM ----------

In all those years of viewing, you must have missed the part where Cooper holds a loaded shotgun on Ben, leaving him to fend for himself. That had nothing to do with his family's safety or being scared and everything to do with being a vindictive prick.

Cooper wasn't nowhere even close to being "right" simply because a single door held against an onslaught of ghouls.

you mean right after those two kids get blown to smithereens under Ben's leadership? i would have shot him and went to the basement. and no i am not a racist lol

darth los

15-Oct-2009, 05:37 PM

In all those years of viewing, you must have missed the part where Cooper holds a loaded shotgun on Ben, leaving him to fend for himself. That had nothing to do with his family's safety or being scared and everything to do with being a vindictive prick.

Cooper wasn't nowhere even close to being "right" simply because a single door held against an onslaught of ghouls.

Helen said it best:

" That's what's important isn't it? For you to be right and everyone else to be wrong."

And that's coming from his wife. Who else would know the character of the man any better?

:cool:

octo7

15-Oct-2009, 05:38 PM

the same helen who would have still been alive if she just listened to him and not brought current marital tensions to the situation? :D

JDFP

15-Oct-2009, 05:44 PM

No one can really say, we can only take what we know and apply it.

That being said there was only one other man in the house, Tom, and there wasn't nearly the amount of static in the relationship between he and Cooper.

Furthermore, the dynamic between Ben and Tom (a white and a black man) was just fine, imo.

So he could be a racist or he could also just be an asshole, or both.

:cool:

I don't know that it's really fair to compare the relationship between Cooper and Tom and Cooper and Ben considering Tom and Ben are so different as people. Tom was a kid -- maybe in his early 20s, and when Cooper came along and started "telling" him what he needed to do I'm sure Tom was thrilled to have someone take a leadership position. Tom was not a natural leader.

Ben, whether right or wrong, was a natural leader. A better comparison would have been if Tom had been a strong character like Ben and Cooper instead of: "Oh, well Mr. Cooper seemed to think it was a good idea, and I didn't have any better ideas...".

j.p.

darth los

15-Oct-2009, 05:44 PM

the same helen who would have still been alive if she just listened to him and not brought current marital tensions to the situation? :D

And you're saying that harry didn't bring any tensions to the situation, marital or otherwise? Should she have just taken him slapping her around and not have said anything?

They way the night played out we can not assume anyone would have lived.

it's just like in Baseball when they say you can't assume a double play.

:cool:

octo7

15-Oct-2009, 05:52 PM

In a life or death situation i would rather someone be an asshole as long as they had conviction and a plan, a zombie holocaust isnt exactly the kind of time to make friends and exchange pleasentries with someone, especially if you rightly suspect they have poor leadership qualities such as ben dfid.

what it all boils dsown to is that the zombies did not go near the basement door or even notice its existence, cooper was right in his asumption and ben's wrecklessnes killed a child, 3 women and 2 men.

also when ben punches barbara, what good did that do?

ProfessorChaos

15-Oct-2009, 05:56 PM

ben was responsible for the deaths of everyone in that house, including coopers little girl.

the kid was as good as dead from jump street.:skull:
can't blame ben for that one.

octo7

15-Oct-2009, 05:57 PM

the kid was as good as dead from jump street.:skull:
can't blame ben for that one.
i guess thats true

this thread is fucking awesome!

ProfessorChaos

15-Oct-2009, 05:58 PM

also when ben punches barbara, what good did that do?

and he chilled barb's ass out with that punch, that way he could take care of business.

i don't think cooper was racist, but ben certainly wasn't a villain, either.

octo7

15-Oct-2009, 06:01 PM

by chilling her out you mean pushed her over the edge, he knocked her clean out and she never recovered , i thought it was a combination of that and her experience in the graveyard that left her with permanent psychosis. ben did it out of anger too rather than a calculated decision. if they had taken all that wood stacked it between the cellar door and the wall at the top of the stairs it would have been physically impossible for anyone or anything to get inside.

MaximusIncredulous

15-Oct-2009, 06:21 PM

I doubt Cooper was racist. Until Ben came along, Cooper was pretty much in charge. Ben dislodged him from that spot and Cooper held it against him.

darth los

15-Oct-2009, 07:10 PM

I don't really hold with the "Cooper was right" thing, though. Sure, it was ironic that the last hiding place for Ben was the cellar, but if everyone but Ben hadn't lost their balls and messed everything up, then upstairs would have worked out a LOT better - primarily because they would have been able to signal for help long before the posse got close enough to gun everyone down.

Cooper definitely had a better hiding place for the purposes that he wanted to use it for: Protecting his family by hunkering down and waiting for help to come.

Ben didn't have those considerations. His thing was more like: This is what I'm doing, you guys can come along if you want to but don't get in my way.

As a matter of fact for all the talk about Cooper I can't think of a single thing Ben compromised on. It was his way or the highway, atleast inpart of the house. He said it himself, "You can be boss down there, I'm boss up here."

Now that's not in keeping with the spirit of Bipartisanship now is it? :D :p

He even ignored those that were on his "side." Barbara made a good suggestion as well. "Let's walk pass these puss brained bags of shit and those who want to hunker down in the cellar, let them and we'll send back help. That turned out to be a better plan than what ben had in mind as well.

:cool:

---------- Post added at 03:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

In a life or death situation i would rather someone be an asshole as long as they had conviction and a plan, a zombie holocaust isnt exactly the kind of time to make friends and exchange pleasentries with someone, especially if you rightly suspect they have poor leadership qualities such as ben dfid.

what it all boils dsown to is that the zombies did not go near the basement door or even notice its existence, cooper was right in his asumption and ben's wrecklessnes killed a child, 3 women and 2 men.

also when ben punches barbara, what good did that do?

Yeah, that asshole angle worked out real well for Cooper, Rhodes and the parties they were with. :rolleyes:

And no one is talking about exchanging pleasantries with someone. I'm the most straight up person i know, I like to get to the point and that's it. However, i do also realize that "pleasantries" are nescessary in some instances in order to "lubricate" a situation so that things can actually get done.

If you don't agrre with someone's plan, fine, do your own thing and let them do their's. but that's not what happened. Their stubborness was a detriment to both of their plans and ultimately got them all killed. Isn't testosterone great!?!

:cool:

Mike70

15-Oct-2009, 07:20 PM

My own opinion of Harry Cooper (speaking only of NOTLD '68) is that he was a frightened and scared man who was concerned about his wife and daughter.

If Ben had been white, do you think that Harry would have been more co-operative with him and that things may have come to a different outcome?

that's pretty much always been my opinion of harry. just a very frightened person who is completely unsure of what to really do or how to react to what is happening.

as for ben being white, i don't think it would've made any difference. harry was in such a frightened state of mind (which is a pretty inherently irrational) that i don't think it would've mattered if ben was one of yoda's people. harry already had his mind made up about what he wanted to do and in his state of mind, i don't really think that he would've been cooperative with anyone.

darth los

15-Oct-2009, 08:01 PM

that's pretty much always been my opinion of harry. just a very frightened person who is completely unsure of what to really do or how to react to what is happening.

as for ben being white, i don't think it would've made any difference. harry was in such a frightened state of mind (which is a pretty inherently irrational) that i don't think it would've mattered if ben was one of yoda's people. harry already had his mind made up about what he wanted to do and in his state of mind, i don't really think that he would've been cooperative with anyone.

Yeah, but did ya see his face when tom decided that he and judy were gonna team up with Ben? If he was his wife he would have bitch slapped him. :lol:

:cool:

sandrock74

15-Oct-2009, 10:01 PM

I don't think Harry was racist. It simply came down to Harry and Ben not getting along, which led to them not liking one another. Period.

Harry was in a panicked state, which is never a good time to try dealing with someone during the best of times. Ben had a strong personality and could be stubborn. Each man had his plan going until they met and each saw the other as a possible threat to their individual plan.

Ben and Tom got along well, but, as its been pointed out, Tom was of a more "laid back" personality type...someone willing to follow the leader. Tom (and therefore Judy) switching sides was seen by Harry as a form of betrayal, and a further challenge to his "epic plan". He saw Ben as a rival (threat) to his "plan" and his "leadership". He had lost two of his "followers" to this other man, and even his own wife was questioning if Ben had a better plan. Helens comments hint to Harry having some issues in regards to always needing to be right and such, so it can be reasonably assumed that Harry has a history of disliking being questioned and/or having his "authority" in a given situation challenged.

Ben was the more dominant personality between himself and Harry Cooper. I believe that alone was enough to rattle Coopers cage in most situations...what was going on outside just compunded everything to the Nth degree. It was The Breaking Point.

If Harry were racist, he would have shown it. Certainly, he would have shown it in the privacy of the basement, to his wife. But never once did Harry use a racial slur, a derogatory remark, or even a curse towards Ben. They just plain didn't get along.

To quote Hank Hill (from "King Of The Hill"): "What the hell kind of country is this where I can only hate a man if he's white?"

jded

15-Oct-2009, 10:16 PM

Ben and Cooper were complete opposites within the realm of decision making. Both took action but neither were willing to give up there stance and opinions and come to a mutual agreement. They were oblivious to the fact that they were in the same boat.
Helen said it best:

" That's what's important isn't it? For you to be right and everyone else to be wrong."

And that's coming from his wife. Who else would know the character of the man any better?

:cool:I don't see Cooper as a racist. I saw a man who was selfish. A man who would not help because if he had it would have damaged his ego. In his mind he was right for holing up in the cellar, therefore if he weakened to the idea of Ben's plan and given a hand it would have lessened his accomplishment and confidence.

You would hope after all information was gathered that a more proper plan would not be disregarded due to ignorance. Only in a perfect world would we find this lack of indecisiveness.

darth los

15-Oct-2009, 11:19 PM

Ben and Cooper were complete opposites within the realm of decision making. Both took action but neither were willing to give up there stance and opinions and come to a mutual agreement. They were oblivious to the fact that they were in the same boat.I don't see Cooper as a racist. I saw a man who was selfish. A man who would not help because if he had it would have damaged his ego. In his mind he was right for holing up in the cellar, therefore if he weakened to the idea of Ben's plan and given a hand it would have lessened his accomplishment and confidence.

You would hope after all information was gathered that a more proper plan would not be disregarded due to ignorance. Only in a perfect world would we find this lack of indecisiveness.

that was the point of that post. To shed some light on other flaws in his character that would explain his assholeness throughout the film. Because attribute it to whatever you want to, bottom line is the man was a dick. Perhaps he was a dick because of the straits he found himself and his family were in but that quote by helen indicates that it was business as usual for him.

:cool:

SRP76

15-Oct-2009, 11:31 PM

No racism, imo. Just two guys that both want to be in charge. It just so happens that one of them is black.

Exactly. Cooper was just a know-it-all, not a racist. Tom and Helen sure as hell weren't black, and he treated them the exact same way he did Ben. Didn't matter what color anyone was; Cooper would have sworn he was right regardless.

darth los

16-Oct-2009, 02:29 AM

Exactly. Cooper was just a know-it-all, not a racist. Tom and Helen sure as hell weren't black, and he treated them the exact same way he did Ben. Didn't matter what color anyone was; Cooper would have sworn he was right regardless.

That's probably a better assesment. Although jut like the racism angle, it can't be quantified.

Who knows what lurks in the hearts of men.

:cool:

sandrock74

16-Oct-2009, 06:23 AM

Who knows what lurks in the hearts of men.

The Shadow knows!

SymphonicX

16-Oct-2009, 08:20 AM

Race was never called into question in the movie...

I think all you need to do is analyse the incentives of the two characters....One's incentive is to protect his family at all costs, to the point of blinkering off the world. The other, with no loyalties to anyone in the house, has a survival incentive - one to fight and get out of the situation.

Ben had nothing tying him down, Cooper had a family to fight for. The incentives here are skewed and conflicting.

Neither one was right but I always got the feeling that Ben came off worse than Harry at some points - but let's not forget that Cooper wasn't perfect and put himself and everyone in mortal danger...

It was just purely coincidental that Harry was right about the door not breaking. No one knew if that thing would hold with 100 zombies trying to punch through - and Ben was RIGHT, it was certain death for them if they had broken through.

I think Harry was the antagonist in this movie - let's not forget that...but the reasons why Cooper was the antagonist - simply a skewed, conflicting incentive to survive.

Ghost Of War

16-Oct-2009, 08:40 AM

Interesting thread...here's my tuppence...The only person who thought Cooper was racist was Ben. I think he'd had to deal with racists before, and he thought "here we go again, another white man trying to tell me what to do" when Cooper appeared, and this is also why I think he hesitated at the end of the film (see "Night Thought" thread). Harry was a bit of a prick and a know-all, his wife's comments towards him convinced me of that, but he was scared, and when people are scared, they get defensive, especially when they've got a family to protect. Harry had a sick daughter to worry about too, but all Ben wanted to do was get out of there.

BillyRay

16-Oct-2009, 02:58 PM

and he chilled barb's ass out with that punch, that way he could take care of business.

The only alternative, classicly, for dealing with a hysterical woman would be to kiss her. And that just wasn't gonna happen on film in 1968...

As far as Harry, yeah he's the classic button-down, asshole middle-manager type. While not inherrently racist, he's simply an all-around unpleasant person to deal with. I know the type. I've been the type, it's not fun being him, either.

His marrage is going down the tubes. The only good thing that's come from him is his little girl. (Look how tender he gets when he gets for a minute there down in the cellar) He's gonna fight for her the only way he knows how - by barking orders. It worked so far with Tommy & Judy. But they're "good" kids. The type that respect their elders.

The arrival of Ben - who's cool head immediately makes things a bit more hopeful - is a threat. Harry's no longer managing, no longer the 'Alpha'.

If Harry had only been cool, more people would have made it. NOTLD wouldn't have been nearly as horrifying or fun, but more of them would have made it.

More importantly: What if Tommy had learned to pump gas correctly?

iluvc2h5oh

17-Oct-2009, 03:16 PM

The only alternative, classicly, for dealing with a hysterical woman would be to kiss her. And that just wasn't gonna happen on film in 1968...

100 Rifles?

But on the the other point...

Was Harry racist...

I think so...

Does the film come out and say it? No, but we hate when film makers come out and say "XYZ" a great film maker can imply without beating you over the head with it (uhmmm...LOTD?).

So why do I think so?

How many 40+ men in rural PA were NOT racist in the 60's? No, they were not all in the Klan or out for blood, but I bet many were the.."my daughter better not bring a black guy home"..."Blacks are always looking for government hand-outs" type racists.

This is what kinda racist I think Harry is. I think Harry has the idea of the "uppity" black person who is out of his place and Harry thought he sure as hell isnt going to tell me what to do.

Harry was the classic, defensive, "I have black friends!" racist.

Trin

17-Oct-2009, 06:40 PM

MoonSylver

18-Oct-2009, 04:56 AM

Was Harry a racist? No, I don't think so. It is interesting that you CAN read that into the subtext (as you can MANY OTHER issues of the day) & it WORKS.

As others have pointed out, Helen makes a very telling comment on Harry's personality. This+fear for his child+being challenged for control = what happens IMO.

One thing I think is interesting is the question, who is right, Ben or Harry? Although you can pick sides & there are compelling arguments either way, one of the things I love is that THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF EITHER WAY. You're left with the uneasy feeling (IMO) that either one of them could have been right.

Another thing I love to do is compare the original characters vs the remake. The changes in character are varying degrees of subtle, but also more "fixed", with a little less room for interpretation IMO (though they ARE great performances/portrayals nonetheless)

In the remake, Cooper is ALMOST exclusively the "cock of the walk". The strutting, arrogant asshole. Ben's failing is clearly shown to be his fixation on his plan, his idea, that he will not listen. Interesting to note that in the remake, they are both wrong, Barb has it right all along.

One of the things I love about the original is the characters & their motivations & actions are 100% believable & understandable. Not cliched or fantastical, they come across as real people & how they would react in that kind of crisis. Even if you don't agree with them, you can understand them & why they react the way they do.

JDFP

18-Oct-2009, 05:28 AM

Ben and Harry disagreed on what was best for obvious reasons given their different siatuations. Ben was unencumbered and mobile. Survival in the outside was more likely for him. Harry had a wife and injured daughter and did not appear to be in the best of conditioning. Mobility was not his strong suit.

Quick note, I don't disagree with your statement that Ben was probably in much better physical condition than Harry (we don't know except from their physical appearances since we don't have a medical chart on them), but I would like to point out one thing:

If a man (or woman, I thinks, though I can't speak for women being that I'm a guy) has a reason to live such as a wife and children and is concerned about them they can turn out to be tougher fighters and much more determined than any man or woman in the best of physical shape.

Does physical shape have an influence on it? Of course. But as a guy I'll be the first to admit that purpose (such as protecting family) is a much stronger driving force than anything else.

When Harry and Helen are telling their story about escaping from ghouls that attacked their car, use your imagination some. Do you think Karen ran alongside them even scared shitless and bitten? I doubt it. And think of the bump on Harry's head -- I wouldn't say it's jumping to conclusions in saying that he gained that from protecting his family.

My personal thoughts... I picture Harry Cooper lifting his daughter up on his back and hauling ass for safety. A few pounds over-weight or not, his purpose was in saving his daughter's life and his wife's life. You do what you have to do in those situations. And regardless of whether Harry is an absolute ass or not, I have a tremendous amount of respect for him as a father in picturing him running like hell with his daughter on his back and looking out for his wife trying to get them to safety. Just think of how far they had to run.

Harry Cooper was many things, but he DID love his daughter probably above everything else (the scene where he tries to reach her before he dies is actually really touching to me), of that I have no doubt, and I respect that he did try to protect his family and didn't leave them behind.

Ass-hole, potential racist, and control-freak -- I won't disagree with these. He was a flawed man for sure. But the man does deserve some degree of respect for trying to do what he thought was best in protecting his family and being there for his daughter -- that's a hell of alot more than what can be said for entirely too many men.

Granted, this is opinionated conjecture on events only mentioned (not actually shown) in NOTLD, but that's just my own imagining in picturing it happen...

j.p.

Philly_SWAT

18-Oct-2009, 05:31 AM

Quick note, I don't disagree with your statement that Ben was probably in much better physical condition than Harry (we don't know except from their physical appearances since we don't have a medical chart on them), but I would like to point out one thing:

If a man (or woman, I thinks, though I can't speak for women being that I'm a guy) has a reason to live such as a wife and children and is concerned about them they can turn out to be tougher fighters and much more determined than any man or woman in the best of physical shape.

Does physical shape have an influence on it? Of course. But as a guy I'll be the first to admit that purpose (such as protecting family) is a much stronger driving force than anything else.

When Harry and Helen are telling their story about escaping from ghouls that attacked their car, use your imagination some. Do you think Karen ran alongside them even scared shitless and bitten? I doubt it. And think of the bump on Harry's head -- I wouldn't say it's jumping to conclusions in saying that he gained that from protecting his family.

My personal thoughts... I picture Harry Cooper lifting his daughter up on his back and hauling ass for safety. A few pounds over-weight or not, his purpose was in saving his daughter's life and his wife's life. You do what you have to do in those situations. And regardless of whether Harry is an absolute ass or not, I have a tremendous amount of respect for him as a father in picturing him running like hell with his daughter on his back and looking out for his wife trying to get them to safety. Just think of how far they had to run.

Harry Cooper was many things, but he DID love his daughter probably above everything else (the scene where he tries to reach her before he dies is actually really touching to me), of that I have no doubt, and I respect that he did try to protect his family and didn't leave them behind.

Ass-hole, potential racist, and control-freak -- I won't disagree with these. He was a flawed man for sure. But the man does deserve some degree of respect for trying to do what he thought was best in protecting his family and being there for his daughter -- that's a hell of alot more than what can be said for entirely too many men.

Granted, this is opinionated conjecture on events only mentioned (not actually shown) in NOTLD, but that's just my own imagining in picturing it happen...

j.p.
Wow, nice post.

MoonSylver

18-Oct-2009, 05:36 AM

Wow, nice post.

Second. Cooper gets a lot of heat, but he's a very HUMAN character, one I can entirely understand even if I don't 100% agree with. I can respect him, sympathize for him & pity him, with out hating him.

DubiousComforts

18-Oct-2009, 05:56 AM

My work in this thread is not yet done (*pops a pompous pill*) :p

I thought cooper was right because boarding up the house was a retarded idea, why so many entry holes when you can have just one and reinforce that?
If you accept the film's conceit that the cellar door held even though it was visibly split in half due to all the banging, then you must also accept that a majority of Ben's barricades held since we are only ever shown a single door and window being breached. This demonstrates that had everyone simply worked together, they most likely would have repelled any combined effort by the ghouls to gain entry, at least until morning.

I also remember ben started the hostility too, he kept on about "why didnt you come help" over and over beyond the point of necessity and added ot the overall panic of the situation.
If that was the case, then Tom would have had the same problem as Cooper since Ben accused both of them of not being "decent" people. Yet Tom seemed to take no offense and quickly realized that their best chance of survival was joining forces. In this regard, he even forgoes the "safety" of the cellar to remain upstairs with Ben.

But before the conversation even veered in this direction, Cooper forced the position that the "cellar is the safest place" as though anyone that wouldn't immediately hole up in the cellar must be a complete idiot.

ben was responsible for the deaths of everyone in that house, including coopers little girl.
How do you figure? Ben didn't bite her. Of course, Cooper claims that "those things turned over our car," but can you imagine this maniac behind the wheel of a fast moving vehicle during a crisis situation with his family's life at stake? It's far more probable that Cooper panicked and flipped the car on his own, which led to his daughter being bitten in the first place.

Twice during the night, Ben also warns Helen to watch over her child and she ignores his advice. This not only leads to her own horrific death but puts the lives of everyone inside the house in jeopardy. Karen undoubtedly would have died and returned had they followed Cooper's plan to hide in the cellar. Just imagine the chaos in the cramped confines of the cellar with the risen Karen attacking the frightened survivors while Harry and Helen try to keep Ben from blasting their "daughter."

you mean right after those two kids get blown to smithereens under Ben's leadership? i would have shot him and went to the basement. and no i am not a racist lol
Ben didn't put a gun to anyone's head and force them to formulate an escape plan. Tom was entirely convinced to make a break for a rescue station because "the television said that's the right thing to do." Ben also didn't tell Judy to deviate from the plan and follow Tom out of the house unexpectedly, nor did he expect Tom to slosh gasoline all over the truck despite Tom's assurances that "I know how to handle that truck, and I can handle the pump."

It should also be noted that unlike the '90 remake, Ben never points the shotgun at Cooper or anyone else living while it's in his possession. There is no reason to believe that Ben wouldn't risk his own life to save any of the people in the house including Cooper, while Harry proves himself to be a complete ass by putting Ben in mortal danger not just once but twice.

It is interesting that you CAN read that into the subtext (as you can MANY OTHER issues of the day) & it WORKS.

One thing I think is interesting is the question, who is right, Ben or Harry?
...one of the things I love is that THERE IS NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF EITHER WAY. You're left with the uneasy feeling that either one of them could have been right.

One of the things I love about the original is the characters & their motivations & actions are 100% believable & understandable. Not cliched or fantastical, they come across as real people & how they would react in that kind of crisis.
I agree with all of your well-stated points, and in regards to the last one, it's interesting to note that Chuck Craig once mentioning a chance dinner engagement with people from either the FBI or CIA (I don't recall which exactly). When these folks learned he was in Night of the Living Dead, they mentioned there was a U.S. government program to study the film since it was deemed to realistically depict how ordinary people would react in a crisis situation.

And when George Romero was told about this, he simply asked, "why?" :D

Trin

19-Oct-2009, 06:44 PM

@jdfp - I agree with your post regarding Harry Cooper as a father and a man who would fight for his family. After reading your post a couple of times I think all of the things you've said support why Cooper would choose the cellar over trying to be mobile. He'd done mobile already. He knew how difficult it would be for them. Staying put was a better option for him.

If I were in the zombie situation of Night and I were on my own I'd likely go mobile. Seek the best place to make a stand and wait it out. If I were at home with my wife and 3 kids I'd likely stay put. And that's me in the same physical condition in either case. I see Cooper as being in the stay put mode because of his encumbrances and because he knew what being mobile was like.

As to whether he was a good or bad person. We don't know what things happened prior to the cellar. We know he got his family there. But at what cost? Did they leave others stranded? Was he responsible for the bite his daughter endured? Anything we think about his actions prior to the cellar is assumption.

What we saw of Cooper was belligerent and argumentative and in the end he was willing to sacrifice Ben for no good reason.

darth los

19-Oct-2009, 07:50 PM

204079As to whether he was a good or bad person. We don't know what things happened prior to the cellar. We know he got his family there. But at what cost? Did they leave others stranded? Was he responsible for the bite his daughter endured? Anything we think about his actions prior to the cellar is assumption.

What we saw of Cooper was belligerent and argumentative and in the end he was willing to sacrifice Ben for no good reason.

That's what i was about to say. How do we know what was in his heart. What do we know for sure? We know they had been through an ordeal in getting to the house and that they are indeed family.

Now, what his motivation for being a total dick was throughout the movie who knows. Was it to protect his family? Maybe. But it can't be said for certain that's what it was.

There's way more evidence to show that he was being a dick for other reasons than his family. It starts with his wife and how what's important to him is just him being right, not to protect his family. She would know best right. Did we ever see cooper consoling them or giving them words of comfort? NO.

But we did see alot whole lot of that other stuff.

:cool:

MoonSylver

20-Oct-2009, 12:43 AM

@jdfp - I agree with your post regarding Harry Cooper as a father and a man who would fight for his family. After reading your post a couple of times I think all of the things you've said support why Cooper would choose the cellar over trying to be mobile. He'd done mobile already. He knew how difficult it would be for them. Staying put was a better option for him.

This is a very good point.

What we saw of Cooper was belligerent and argumentative and in the end he was willing to sacrifice Ben for no good reason.

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, without condoning or condemning, he DOES hold Ben responsible for the deaths of Tom & Judy. Anybody who legitimately felt that way & felt that this person was going to cause further deaths (especially their own families) could see this as justified. (Now personally, I think he's just using this as a justification for what he wanted to do ANYWAY, but just sayin'...)

Trin

20-Oct-2009, 02:24 PM

Just to play devil's advocate for a second, without condoning or condemning, he DOES hold Ben responsible for the deaths of Tom & Judy. Anybody who legitimately felt that way & felt that this person was going to cause further deaths (especially their own families) could see this as justified. (Now personally, I think he's just using this as a justification for what he wanted to do ANYWAY, but just sayin'...)
That's true. And how many times around here do people condone killing a person who is in your survival group if that person represents an ongoing threat? By that point in the movie both Ben and Cooper were angry and/or scared enough to kill the other. And they both had concrete reasons why the other was a threat. Was either of them right or wrong?

Here's an interesting question - how would things have been different if Ben had let Cooper live and they both retreated to the cellar? Assuming they both lived through the family reunion downstairs that would've meant a pair of them alive in the morning when the posse arrived.

darth los

20-Oct-2009, 04:23 PM

Here's an interesting question - how would things have been different if Ben had let Cooper live and they both retreated to the cellar? Assuming they both lived through the family reunion downstairs that would've meant a pair of them alive in the morning when the posse arrived.

Or?... Being that cooper was first to the house, What if he had the only gun instead of Ben? Let's not forget that Ben got away with alot probably because he had that big ass rifle while he was talking the smack he was.

:cool:

rightwing401

22-Oct-2009, 04:27 AM

darth los

22-Oct-2009, 04:18 PM

1969 version- most likely a subtle racist.

1990 version- ego inflated asshole.

But then again, Ben wasn't exactly Mr. Nice guy either, nor was he always thinking straight or right.

ahem

"I wasn't taking it downstairs. You can't get any reception from the basement you dickhead!" Harry-90' version.

I agree. As pointed out earlier Ben was on some "my way or the highway" shit himself. There were several opportunities for him to compromise as well. But He stubbornly stayed the course.

:cool:

sandrock74

22-Oct-2009, 07:00 PM

"I wasn't taking it downstairs. You can't get any reception from the basement you dickhead!" Harry-90' version.

You know, my friends and I have debated that scene several times over the years. No one seems to believe him that he wasn't going to sneak it into the basement, but we all agree that he was correct in saying there is no reception down there. I mean, he sure looked like he was headed for the basement!

I guess we'll never know.

darth los

22-Oct-2009, 07:25 PM

You know, my friends and I have debated that scene several times over the years. No one seems to believe him that he wasn't going to sneak it into the basement, but we all agree that he was correct in saying there is no reception down there. I mean, he sure looked like he was headed for the basement!

I guess we'll never know.

The assertion that they would not get any reception in the basement was iffy but probably correct. I say that because the radio seemed to work just fine when Ben was down there, so who knows.

That that said, after analyzing the scene, just look at cooper's Body Language. The whole way down he was looking over his shoulder and sneaking around with the T.V. There's no debating that.

What we could debate is why was he behaving that way. A couple of theories:

1) He was going to sneak it in the Basement because either: A) He wanted to see if it worked down there and keep it for himself in order to make his Basement plan seem more appealing so people would want to stay down there with him.

2) He wanted to sneak up on everybody and show them he had a nice big shiny T.V. so they could congradulate him and stroke his ego, therefoe one upping Ben. Don't discount this one so quickly as his own wife testified to the importance of him being dominant and "right" in thesesorts of situations.

I've always wondered why Ben didn't bring it down himself as in the original.

Side note: Ben was very confrontational as well. He is the one who drew the line in the sand when he said" you can be boss down there, I'm Boss up here." Now whatever his motivation was for uttering that phrase the message was clear. "I've got the only gun, I've gotta plan and we're gonna do it my way."

:cool:

MoonSylver

23-Oct-2009, 12:33 AM

In 90 I always got the vibe that, regardless of the astute observation that it wouldn't get reception in the basement, that Cooper was snagging the TV just to be a dick, or to continue the game of one up's-man-ship that was already going on.

bd2999

24-Oct-2009, 12:21 AM

Did not read through all the pages but every opinion has probably already been said twice.

I do not think he was racist, at least in never really comes accross that way. He might well be but he does not seem to dislike Ben because he is a black man, their personalities just clash hard. Both are guys that are used to being the one that is listened to so they just are not going to really be friends, add into that the high pressure scenerio and having to deal with the other and things are bound to go downhill.

That being said, I do think Cooper is a bad person. At the start he is just scared like everyone so the arguments are perfectly fine. I think, at least for me, the fact that he sort of leaves Ben high and dry when he is trying to get back to the house is the big moment. Everything really before that he is just sort of being an ass (well that and not coming up to check the noise but I think that is fine given the scenerio going on and the fear). So I do not think he is the best guy in the world really.

The movie does well in how it sets everyone up. The audience is really driven to like Ben. He is calm, logical and just has something about him that makes you trust him. Cooper is just the opposite really. I know a big to do is made anymore about Harry being right and he sort of is with the cellar ending up being the place where Ben ends up, but IMO Ben was right. Getting out was the best bet but that torch being that close to the truck was just really stupid. That was the big moment right there. After that the basement was the best thing in terms of saftey I guess but really if the two got along from the start that should have always just been a fall back in worse case scenerio. It was divided so much into this is my house that is your ("You be the boss down there, I'm the boss up here"). Just humanity at its finest in the film.