i smell lawsuit.....

[acealive1]

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Time-In-Prison--70426052.html?yhp=1


dont you?

theres gonna possibly be historic changes made as to the way tips are handled and they may not exist soon if this keeps up.

tipping is a gift, not an expectation

[Arcades057]

Pope and John Wagner were hauled away by police and charged with theft for not paying the mandatory 18 percent gratuity totaling $16 after eating at the Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem, Pa. with six friends.

Sort of like taxes. No criminal charges against the restaurant, but I assume they'll lose business over this.

Bottom line: Refusing to pay any part of a bill is theft, even if it's pennies. If the company wants to go that distance with you, they will.

God damn, though, I can't believe the owner let it get that far... speaks of shoddy management.

[AcesandEights]

God damn, though, I can't believe the owner let it get that far... speaks of shoddy management.

I thought the same exact thing. A true lose/lose situation.

[bassman]

This will get thrown out. There's no way these charges are going to stick....

[darth los]

Sort of like taxes. No criminal charges against the restaurant, but I assume they'll lose business over this.

Bottom line: Refusing to pay any part of a bill is theft, even if it's pennies. If the company wants to go that distance with you, they will.

God damn, though, I can't believe the owner let it get that far... speaks of shoddy management.

I don't even think the issue is refusing to pay part of the bill, because if it was then you're %100 right.

Imo, the real question here is why should patrons be FORCED to pay a tip? Well, if you want to go for the simple answer it's because people are cheap bastards and won't unless they are forced to but that doesn't make it right.

However, This is America, I shouldn't be forced to pay for anything i don't want to and that includes bullshit service.

Also, I see this from the other angle. Why aren't we calling the owners of these establishments out for being cheap bastards themselves? Because we all know they pay these people slave wages. So in essence they are forcing the customer to make up the difference in salary. How is that right?


Yeah, I smell a lawsuit allright, but it should be against this dumb ass gratuity crap. I don't know whether to call it unconstitutional or what but it ceratinly doesn't pass the smell test.

:cool:

[AcesandEights]

Imo, the real question here is why should patrons be FORCED to pay a tip?

I honestly feel that the management should have the right to add on a gratuity, and I think that is reasonable. This should, however be clearly communicated to the clientele (and usually is on the menus or by signage at the establishment). I also think it is reasonable in such a case to refuse to pay that gratuity and demand an adjustment of your bill from management, which is pro forma in the case of truly bad service.

The important thing to note here is that this situation should not have escalated to such an extent, and, I honestly believe, for it to have happened speaks volumes about the parties involved on both sides of this situation.

You're going to refuse to pay a part of your bill? Better make damn sure you're not only clear about that fact, but why you're doing so, and you had best speak with someone with some level of managerial power about it. Maybe one side screwed up royally here, but it really reads as though both parties approached this situation in a completely asinine fashion.

[darth los]

I honestly feel that the management should have the right to add on a gratuity, and I think that is reasonable.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one but you still have not indicated WHY you feel it's reasonable?

:cool:

[acealive1]

However, This is America, I shouldn't be forced to pay for anything i don't want to and that includes bullshit service.






very true. someone slept through their customers this occasion and expected a tip INCLUDED in the bill. not cool. "too busy" my ass. let obama, bush, clinton or whoever else walk in and a table will be set up on the spot and he'll get top notch service. these high priced eateries better watch out, because people can and will go to a normal restaurant.

[deadpunk]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z-qV9wVGb38&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z-qV9wVGb38&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[darth los]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z-qV9wVGb38&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z-qV9wVGb38&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


CLASSIC ! :thumbsup:

:cool:

[MissJacksonCA]

Wow... how petty ... I agree a tip is optional but there's a lot of establishments that have a standard tip they charge for. I would consider those to be a charge and its usually higher end bars and lounges where you're paying for bouncers, and the hostess, etc etc in lieu of a cover charge they kind of roll it all into one. It may be a charge refferred to as a tip but its a charge for services rendered. Like it or not those people got their drinks, and their food. If they didn't like the length of time or had to find utencils then they dont have to return. A service was provided though and to not pay for even bad service to me seems dirty pool.

[blind2d]

I smell nitre.

[deadpunk]

Wow... how petty ... I agree a tip is optional but there's a lot of establishments that have a standard tip they charge for. I would consider those to be a charge and its usually higher end bars and lounges where you're paying for bouncers, and the hostess, etc etc in lieu of a cover charge they kind of roll it all into one. It may be a charge refferred to as a tip but its a charge for services rendered. Like it or not those people got their drinks, and their food. If they didn't like the length of time or had to find utencils then they dont have to return. A service was provided though and to not pay for even bad service to me seems dirty pool.

You can guarantee any establishment that adds a manditory gratuity is forcing their staff to 'tip-pool'. This is a quick, little loop hole that allows the FSI to pay bus boys, dishwashers, hostesses and bartenders the same wages as servers. All the money goes in the pot, and everyone gets an equal split. Not much incentive for your server to work hard though.

I managed shitholes like these for years. Here is the really nasty part... If those people had left w/out paying their gratuity, the waitress would have been expected to cough it up on her own. :mad:

[clanglee]

http://www.s-cnet.ne.jp/~scn01448/buscemiwk/images/mr.pink.jpg

You know what this is right?




Seriously tho'. I see no problem with adding a gratuity to a large table. The wait staff has to bust their butts for those larger tables. And there are a lot of real real cheap people out there that will stiff you in a heartbeat.

[deadpunk]

This is a catch-22. There are people that will stiff. And, there are servers that will take advantage of the fact that they are guaranteed a tip.

However, if they took this issue to the head bartender, as the article states, you can guess why their complaint wasn't heard.:rolleyes:

[jded]

This situation sounds like it'd make a good story for a movie.
It would have to be written and directed by Paul Verhoeven, and have a title such as RoboWaitress or RoboWaitstaff. "You have 15 seconds to comply."
"Gratuity or not, your coming with me."

[acealive1]

This is a catch-22. There are people that will stiff. And, there are servers that will take advantage of the fact that they are guaranteed a tip.

However, if they took this issue to the head bartender, as the article states, you can guess why their complaint wasn't heard.:rolleyes:



i got this treatment by a bartender once. he gave himself a dollar tip....without telling me. and the tip didnt show up on the receipt. i had to check my statement a month later. people should never do that, because you dont know who you're fucking over. in this case, i was a bouncer in the city for a number of years.............bad idea. so the guy was fired

[DeadJonas190]

I have walked out of places that add a mandatory tip to the service. Tips are not required, but they are appreciated. If I get good service at a restaurant then I give a good tip (20-30% or more depending on how good service was), even better int he past when I had a better job and made more money (I once gave a $10 tip on a $15 meal because the service was outstanding). However, if the service is crappy I do not leave a good tip, I will leave maybe a 10% tip at best just because I understand that sometimes people have a bad day, but I will not knowingly go to a restaurant that requires a tip. This is coming from a guy who used to work in the industry.

Oh, by the way, the charges were dropped for the couple in the report.

[acealive1]

I have walked out of places that add a mandatory tip to the service. Tips are not required, but they are appreciated. If I get good service at a restaurant then I give a good tip (20-30% or more depending on how good service was), even better int he past when I had a better job and made more money (I once gave a $10 tip on a $15 meal because the service was outstanding). However, if the service is crappy I do not leave a good tip, I will leave maybe a 10% tip at best just because I understand that sometimes people have a bad day, but I will not knowingly go to a restaurant that requires a tip. This is coming from a guy who used to work in the industry.

Oh, by the way, the charges were dropped for the couple in the report.



i understand, as i was once a waiter at a country club...u can imagine i got no tips

[SymphonicX]

gratuity [grəˈtjuːɪtɪ]
n pl -ties
1. (Business / Commerce) a gift or reward, usually of money, for services rendered; tip
2. something given without claim or obligation
3. (Military) Military a financial award granted for long or meritorious service


I think the definition there sort of wraps this issue up. If this "charge" is mandatory then it should be clearly stated on the menu, to be perfectly honest they should just add that percentage onto the actual cost of the items.

In the UK trading standards rules stipulate you must clearly state all charges before you can request payment for them. For instance if I book a holiday I expect the advertised price to be the final one - if it isn't, it's a rights violation.

Aside from that, the very notion of a tip is that it's a reward. You can't make that mandatory - otherwise the incentive to offer good service is completely f**king irrelevant...it's not a "reward" at this juncture, it's a FEE.

And unless they were specifically aware of that fee then the restuarant has no case...(at least, I'd hope so!)

[krakenslayer]

This is bullshit. If the "tip" is mandatory why not add it to the cost of the food? Why play games? I've worked in shops and banks - did I get tips for spending my time helping customers buy the right games console or helping them sort out their finances? Did I fuck! And I didn't fucking expect any, in fact I'd have been fired for gross misconduct if I'd accepted one. What makes restaurant staff so different?

IMO tips are a crock of shit anyway, employers should just pay their staff a decent wage.

And 18%!? Maybe it's a UK thing, but I've never seen anyone give a tip of more than about 10% unless they're some flashy jerkwad who's trying to impress.

[kortick]

standard tips used to be 15%, now they are 20%.

Most restaurants dont have mandatory tips unless
its a group of people over a certian number, like 10
people or so and its added into the bill.
This is usually stated in advance.

Most bartenders and waiters live off thier tips, and
they didnt have to declare them as income until Reagan
made it a law. He didnt do that to be mean, he did it because
that was how they made money, not thru their paychecks.

I have seen some staff get pretty angry with no tippers or poor
tippers, but arresting them is the worst publicity u can get for
ur restaurant.

The benefits of tipping are pretty simple, if u tip very well
and u frequent a certian restaurant often, u get known.
When u arrive, u are known as a good tipper and u get pushed
ahead of other people or get a better table.
They know whose ass to kiss. And if ur a lousy tipper and they
know it, prepare for a long wait until a table becomes available.

But its the same with anywhere, if u are a good tipper u get
better attention,
i have seen people if the bill is $12.36 they leave
the change from $13 as the tip.
Ppl like that should eat at home.

[deadpunk]

I managed within the Food Service Industry for almost 16 years before I was able to get out from under that particular monkey. So, I'd like to throw this thought out there:

In this day and age, you aren't going to get good customer service very often without the leverage of a gratuity. This is why it should always be optional. It is the ONLY incentive a server has to do their job to the best of their ability.

[Mike70]

The important thing to note here is that this situation should not have escalated to such an extent, and, I honestly believe, for it to have happened speaks volumes about the parties involved on both sides of this situation.



no it shouldn't have. if this couple was so put out by bad service and they clearly communicated that to the management, then the manager should've comp'd the entire bill, apologized and asked them to come back. having customers arrested in front of other customers because they felt the service was poor is entirely the wrong thing to do. i doubt anyone who witnessed this will return to that restaurant and word of mouth in the dining business is everything.

i think the whole thing falls more upon the staff and management. they are there to make you happy. period. end of that discussion. if customers are not happy and you are serious about taking care of your patrons, you bend over backwards to make them happy and get them to give you another try.


having a fracas occur in your place of business, over $16 no less, that involves the police, media attention, etc. just isn't worth it.

[krakenslayer]

But its the same with anywhere, if u are a good tipper u get
better attention,
i have seen people if the bill is $12.36 they leave
the change from $13 as the tip.
Ppl like that should eat at home.

This must be an area of huge difference between the UK and US - I think that's a perfectly reasonable amount for a tip. I guess the thing is that over there I heard that waiting staff can legally be paid under minimum wage because of tips? Over here waiting staff are usually paid better than minimum wage, so tips are a bonus, not compulsory. I certainly wouldn't think it stingy for someone to leave only a 50p or £1 "keep the change" tip for a sub-£10 meal.

Like I said, I fucking hate the whole thing - not out of stinginess so much as the whole protocol/social-interacting side of it.

I want to go in, sit down, eat some food and go home. I don't want to get embroiled in the bullshit pseudo-hierarchical protocol that goes on in restaurants. I don't want my meal ruined by staff fawning over me asking how my food was, fishing for tips, while I sit there trying to work out how much I can leave as a gratuity while still having retaining enough money for my taxi home, and my god-damn taxi driver's tip too.

[SymphonicX]

I'm with you 100% kraken

[krakenslayer]

I'm with you 100% kraken

We should start a pressure group. We could have our own newsletter and everything. It would be like NAMBLA for stingey people. :D

[kortick]

sorry i didnt see ur question.

waitstaff live off thier tips

min wage is a little over $7 per hour but restaurant help
on average gets about $2 per hour.

This is a known fact.

So the basic tip rate is $1.50-2.00 for every $10 u order.

a so to take my example before a bill of $12.36 should be left
a tip of about $2.40 not 64 cents.

would u want to work serving a table for 64 cents?
could u or anyone live on that?

poor tipping hurts the people who work in food service
and not in some minor way.

Oh and don't mistake, i think poor service deserves no tip
at all, and i want my meal comped and the waiter fired and
everyone he loves killed.

But I regularly tip very well.

[deadpunk]

The current minimum wage for anyone that can claim tips is $3.15/hr.