American Politics: What's the Answer?

[darth los]

I've been doing alot of thinking lately, yet I still have alot of unresolved questions. Why is it that the people's business never gets done anymore?( if ever). With every passing day I come closer to the bitter realization that we elected the wrong guy as president. This is not what Democrats and independents voted for. It's business as usual.

Why does wall street get an overnight bailout yet we can't pass a healthcare bill that will actually help the citizens of this country? It seems that no matter what, the interests of corporations are never compromised. it's only the people that have to make concessions.

How is it that N.Y.C had 2 referendums on mayoral term limits(twice voting for them) yet the sitting mayor (Bloomberg) goes and cuts a backroom deal with the legislature reversing the will of the people and abolishing term limits? WTF man !?! No wonder most people don't care to vote. it's like it doesn't even matter.


Democrats, Republicans. It's all the same shit and I've come up with a theory. It's all a set up. They're both working for the same team yet the American people can't see it because they are blinded by visceral issues.

They all have basically the same corporate serving agendas. The reps/consevatives tell their people what they need to to keep them in line. The dems do the same with their base and the end result is they tell their respective constituents what they want to hear and have them go along with things that are not in their interests but in the interests of the pols. and corps.

You ever have a domestic problem? Say it's you, your wife and mother-in law. Your wife wants to have a function at the house yet she knows that both her husband and mom will never go for it. So she promises mom what she has to, sweet talks hubby and vuala!! Her agenda gets realized and the people who authorized it get sucked into something they either didn't understand or never would have went along with if they did in the first place?

Doesn't that sound like what Pols do? And they do it with all types of things. Take our 2 wars for example. Do you think the American people would have ever signed off on a 15,20,25 year committment if they knew that off the top? Of course not. So they masterfully move the goal posts every so often and now it has morphed into an expense that we can't do with out no matter how much it's breaking the bank. Congradulations America!! You are now perpetually at war!! And anyone who think that the tough economic times we're having in this country ins't tied atleast in part to the ungodly expense of these wars is fooling themselves. War's is supposed to be a state of emergency, yet it has become a state of normalcy and that my friends is a tragedy.


Another problem is the two party system we have. It just doesn't seem like enough. Take the dems for example. Their tent is just too big. They have Minorities, Women, Gays, poor people, liberals, moderates, and conservadems.

The reps have conservaties, libertarians, evangelicals, and lately the tea baggres. Most times these constituencies find themselves being courted in order to get elected and then left out in the cold when it comes to advancing their agenda. Just ask the evangelicals and conservatives under Dubya or the progressives under the Current Administration. Imo, we need more parties in order to give the American people choice because right now we don't have that. These suits are all bought and paid for and all they do is spew nonsense. There is no way to serve all those constituencies.

Obama said, and I quote "In my opinion the ideal reform would be to scrap the current system and start fresh with single payer."

So why don't they just do that then? They don't dare go against their corproate masters that's why.

Why don't they vote to strip the health insurance companies of their anti trust exemption? They don't need it. The make money hand over fist. They no longer require that protection. It's bullshit already.


I know it's a lengthy post but we have a problem in this country and i don't hear anyone brain storming for a solution. Here's as good a place to start as any. We need a change because the current system isn't working for the people and it's as obvious as acold sore on someone's lip. And just like that cold sore people notice but no one talks about it.

Thoughts?

O.K. Rant OVA. :rant:

(EXcuse any typos I'm at work :o)

:cool:

[SRP76]

Why is it that the people's business never gets done anymore?( if ever).

Simple enough to answer if you see it. It's because neither Republicans nor Democrats give one squirt of piss about "right" or "wrong" for the people. They care about one thing, only: "we've got to beat those other guys". Simple as that. Whether a new bill will kill us all or not is irrelevant. Passing it is a "win" for whichever party came up with it, non-passage is a "loss". And all they care about is getting more "wins" than "losses".

[Eyebiter]

The first goal of any politician is to reelected.

Self interest has become such a force in American politics that our leaders look out for their own interests first. In practice that means that graft and corruption becomes more common as influence is exchanged for campaign donations.

If you really want to make a difference get involved in government on your local level. Start attending city council, school board, or other meetings. Spend a day sitting in the gallery at the state legislature watching how things are done. CSPAN is a good way to watch floor debates on the US House and Senate to see how things are done.

Just understand that most of what you see in public is grandstanding. Lower level staffers for each politician do much of the leg work behind the scenes. Though leaders on occasion meet at charity events, the golf course, go out to dinner, or drink at bars after work.

You would be surprised how thin the differences are between Republicans and Democrats when all are said and done. While some are true believers from what I was able to see, most of the vitriol is political theater for the masses benefit.

[ProfessorChaos]

With every passing day I come closer to the bitter realization that we elected the wrong guy as president.

careful dude. that "best of 2009" thread is still open and strayrider might be looking at nominating you for best quote.:lol:

i agree that our political system is fucked beyond belief. about to go and do the mandatory "suck corporate dick and spend all kinds of money in december"...or as some call it, christmas shopping, so i don't have time to get into it finer details....

however, in a nutshell, i've come to realize lately that i despise both political parties equally. the relentless back-and-forth, tit-for-tat, childish bickering is beyond belief. as you mentioned, both parties have too many hats they try to wear and end up not doing shit for anyone who is dumb enough to fall in line for their song and dance and cast their votes for "their guy".

this latest little squabble, the great health care debate, is becoming such a pain in the ear...everyday i see the same handful of fat faces going on about how their side has it right and how wrong the other is. in actuality, neither of them has a fucking clue and all they are doing is causing more divisions and problems than they will ever be able to fix.

the wars are a bit of a touchy subject given my background, but it is pretty funny how the repukes are always ranting about government spending and how out-of-control it is, while at the same time dumping billions of dollars into the defense fund. while i am a big supporter of the concept of a powerful military and a strong national defense, i totally agree with you about the sad state of affairs when war becomes a regular part of our nation's affairs. we're coming up on nearly a decade in afghanistan...and what exactly is better about the place?

my head is now racing with all kinds of stuff i'd like to go on about, but like i said, i've gotta rush off to support the capitalist pigs by getting gifts for my loved ones (something i don't mind doing normally, but i just hate the fact that it's almost mandatory during that one time of the year and so out of touch with the message of the holidays). perhaps i'll drop back in here later when i've got more time and a more coherent train of thoughts.

[strayrider]

careful dude. that "best of 2009" thread is still open and strayrider might be looking at nominating you for best quote.:lol

Why would I do something like that? I respect and adore President Obama, regardless of Darth's horrible opinion of the man.

:D

-stray-

[deadpunk]

This requires my...

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc284/thebeergoblin/tenfootpole.png

;)

[DubiousComforts]

Why would I do something like that?
Right. If anyone deserves the Rhodes award in the absence of Khardis...

I must add that strayrider is a kinder, gentler Rhodes with a much more comical sense of irony. I'd bet that he wears the same nifty crisscrossed bandolier when posting, though. ;)

[kortick]

ugh just seeing Kardis name makes me
feel like there are bugs in my eyes and
my hair is on fire.

And what to do about american politics?

That answer is simple.

Its the same thing u do with any other country.

Get Rich.

[rongravy]

It's starting to remind me of WWF back in the 80's...
Forget debates, I want CAGE MATCHES!!!
Or at least someone could throw a chair or two into the ring. Dang!

[Arcades057]

Very well-thought arguments, darth_los. I can see you are finally beginning to see what politics is all about. You asked for a solution, so here you go. It's not as fun as scrap it all and start it over, nor would it be as popular to the 46% of people who want universal health care or are ambivalent about it. The solution?

Follow the Constitution. You know, that "flawed" "antiquated" document written by a bunch of white slave owners a few hundred years ago? That document which spells out not what America can do to you or on your behalf, but what it cannot do to you, or what it cannot force upon you to aid others.

See, part of the problem in politics today is that too many politicians on both sides of the aisle want to change the Constitution to fit their schemes or to simply disregard it entirely as they are doing now. When asked where in the Constitution the congress derives its authority to force an individual to purchase something from a private company or risk jail time, the politicians laugh about it or ask incredulously "Are you serious?"

That's like killing a guy and then when the cops arrest you looking at them and saying "Laws? Are you serious?" but then being allowed to just walk away from being charged with a crime. When ever a member of Congress is elected, they have to swear an oath of office. Here's that oath:


I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

How many politicians these days actually follow that oath as it is stated? How many of our elected officials attempt to get elected to change the Constitution or avoid it altogether? How many politicians will actually confront a declared enemy, or an enemy who has declared war against the United States? How mny of our elected officials bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution or the United States? How many of them faithfully discharge the duties of office?

So the solution is to follow the founding document of our nation, the Constitution. Why follow a "divinely inspired" document written by a bunch of wig-wearing white slave owners in the 1700's?

America was running pretty well up until the 60's. Sure, we'd had slavery--abolished by Lincoln--and had a pesky problem with later allowing women and blacks to vote, but we were overcoming. The best shove in the right path we got on that score was defeating the Nazis. Never again did we want people to see us exhibiting racism, even in a small degree because it would be too easy for people to say "that's just like the Nazis would've done." We were so frightened about that comparison that we went as far opposite from that as possible... barring a few instances.

When we, as a nation, truly began our decline into where we now find ourselves it was with the introduction of foreign ideologies onto our soil. When we began including even the loudest, most strident and ridiculous voices into the debate and giving them the same consideration as the most intelligent, we began to circle the drain. Who would have believed that the greatest military force in the history of the world could be beaten by a bunch of jami-wearing Vietnamese? Only the media and the Left--who comprised the majority of media. When we lost in Vietnam--for lose we did; we evacuated under fire--the Left took it as "see, we were right from the beginning!" and the majority of Americans figured the same.

The leftist idea of pacifism, peace at any cost, and "what if we had a war and no one showed up?" paved the way for ideas of "what if everyone was entitled to a pay check?" and "what if everyone was entitled to a house?"

Enter the housing crisis. Enter the Social Security crisis. Now we're shooting for "what if everyone was entitled to free health care?" Almost forgot to list the right-wing idea of "what if we had a war on drugs?" Yeah. Very successful war, that. Decreased the cost of drugs; raised demand; increased supply; made drugs fashionable; lied to kids about the destructiveness of marijuana, which led kids to check out actually destructive drugs like cocaine, heroin, or meth. Good job, right wingers!

Anyway, neither side is out for the good of the whole. Not only are they out to pad their pockets, take care of their cronies and get reelected, but they're out to get a better job once they leave office. Note the politicians who mess things up royally, then go on to have lucrative careers as lobbyists or officers of companies which they managed to help while in office.

No, the solution is not a person, an ideology or even a collection of people. The solution is to follow the only one thing that actually IS looking out for Americans and the nation: The Constitution.

(cue patriotic music)
Whether you believe, as I do, that the Constitution was divinely inspired or simply written by a bunch of white-haired slave-owning crackers who smelled of sweat and booze, those 14 pages have kept us together as a nation through more tough times than any other document in the history of the world. We had a revolution, called the Civil War; the French Revolution tore apart that country and gave them an entirely new constitution. Somehow that document has survived to this day. Sure it's been changed; sure it has suffered the designs of small people who seek to change what the words within it mean--somehow "the People" takes on a whole different meaning in the 2nd Amendment than it does anywhere else, and the 1st Amendment, which tells government to stay away from religion means that school kids can't bring the Bible to school--but it is still there, acting like a thorn in the side of politicians from every side.

America, stop electing people who want to change the rules of the game to make things "more fair" on people. Stop electing those who believe America is flawed, or that things must be changed. Stop electing those who pander to a segment of the country or believe that the color of your skin or your economic status dictates who you are as a person.

Start electing those who agree America is a nation which overall does things that are good for humanity. That believe the Constitution is fine how it is and should be followed.

Then we'll get back some of that clout. Then we'll be on the path to success again.

[strayrider]

With every passing day I come closer to the bitter realization that we elected the wrong guy as president.

Hey, some of us right-wing nut jobs tried to warn you well over a year ago. To quote Clint Eastwood from Gran Torino, "You don't listen, do you?"

adc3MSS5Ydc


Right. If anyone deserves the Rhodes award in the absence of Khardis...

I must add that strayrider is a kinder, gentler Rhodes with a much more comical sense of irony. I'd bet that he wears the same nifty crisscrossed bandolier when posting, though. ;)

Dear Doobie,

This is by far the nicest thing that you have ever written about me. Imagine my delight at being compared to a psychotic, egotistical authoritarian -- and the greatest troll to ever post on these hallowed discussion boards (all in 25 words or less). It’s like a dream!

When it comes to Khardis … THE Khardis, I must humbly bow out of the contest. Comparing me to The Great One (even by innuendo) is like comparing a community organizer to the President of the United States. It lacks substance and therefore falls flat on its ass in the middle of a "plop!".

Khardis was – to paraphrase another HPotD board member’s very astute evaluation of the individual in question – “The. BEST. Web. Troll. EVER!”.

I am inadequate to stand in the shoes of such a Master. I have, however, come to a tentative conclusion that certain members of these forums actually miss Khardis and are seeking a surrogate – someone to give purpose to their “secret” observations, to give substance to their burning desire to force conformity on others under an implied threat to cry “foul!” to whomever will listen.

I am not the one they have been seeking, but I will offer a possible solution to their dilemma. Form a coalition – call it “The Coalition to Reinstate Khardis”. Start a petition (heck, I’ll be the first to sign on) and gather signatures. They can plead their case to Neil and moderation crew and DEMAND that the speaker of ultimate truth be returned to their midst. Once HE has returned (if he is allowed to return) light will once again fill the glazed and forlorn eyes of the SSS (Secret Society of Snivelers), their sphincters will clench, and a new adventure will begin.

As for the bandoleers … well, a fellow has to accessorize, don’t he? A black leather thong and fuzzy pink bunny slippers are just so boooring without something to set them off.

http://www.cobankopegi.com/b/bunnyslippers.jpg

So? what's wrong with that?

:D

-stray-

[C5NOTLD]

Follow the Constitution. You know, that "flawed" "antiquated" document written by a bunch of white slave owners a few hundred years ago? That document which spells out not what America can do to you or on your behalf, but what it cannot do to you, or what it cannot force upon you to aid others.

See, part of the problem in politics today is that too many politicians on both sides of the aisle want to change the Constitution to fit their schemes or to simply disregard it entirely as they are doing now. When asked where in the Constitution the congress derives its authority to force an individual to purchase something from a private company or risk jail time, the politicians laugh about it or ask incredulously "Are you serious?"




Well said.





.

[JDFP]

See, part of the problem in politics today is that too many politicians on both sides of the aisle want to change the Constitution to fit their schemes or to simply disregard it entirely as they are doing now. When asked where in the Constitution the congress derives its authority to force an individual to purchase something from a private company or risk jail time, the politicians laugh about it or ask incredulously "Are you serious?"

That's like killing a guy and then when the cops arrest you looking at them and saying "Laws? Are you serious?" but then being allowed to just walk away from being charged with a crime.

You know, it's not so much a matter of faith in politicians for me as it is in having faith within people. I think the biggest problem with elections is not necessarily the politicians themselves, but the idiots/masses that elect the corrupted politicians to office. Take for example the "right honorable" Sen. Edward "Teddy" Kennedy. Kennedy outright murdered a woman after having too much to drink one night and walked away from it clean back to the Kennedy compound to make sure he got in touch with the family attorneys for advice before admitting to the police what had happened. Of course, being a Kennedy, he was able to get off scott-free from the murder. If this wasn't bad enough, the masses of people from Massachusetts continued to re-elect him time and time and time again.... wow, says alot about the character of the people who voted in his home state, continually electing a murderer to office. But hey, he did a great deal of "good" for the "people" -- so they conveniently over-look something like murder, why bother with that little pesky detail? Of course, people get upset at this 'detail' and try to honor the man at his funeral for the good he did. The way I look at it, it's a bit like honoring Hitler for building the autobahn and for bringing economic prosperity back to Germany while over-looking some other minor details of his reign. Not me, I'll call the murdering Kennedy out for what he did, and I believe he'll have an eternity to dwell on the matter now that the murderer is rightfully dead.

Back on subject, of course the majority of politicians are corrupt and purchased by special interest groups / PAC's / etc. If you want to be elected, you have to play the ball-game with the special interest groups / PAC's. The "every man" "Mr Smith Goes to Washington" is history. You have to have a great deal of money to even consider running for office, and you better play the game or you won't get into the door. It's politics, baby, it's a messy game. But, the masses, they keep eating it up and putting these ardent liberals and war-hungry conservatives back into office over and over again. Do some politicians accomplish some good? Sure. Maybe Kennedy did do some good as a senator, just as I believe Bush Jr. did some good while in office for the people, but at what cost? Is selling our soul for an extra $1 an hour for a wage worth it? Is economic prosperity worth the price of having corrupt politicians rule the nation?

My hero when it comes to history/philosophy, Dr. Arnold J. Toynbee (I wrote my thesis on him in college), stated that every society grows and develops and eventually goes into decadence/devouring from internal causes. Just as Rome turned into chaos, so shall the United States also internally collapse from our own greed / internal strife. External factors (such as the barbarians, terrorists in our case) play a large role, but ultimately we bring the degredation / devouring of our society from internal causes. As Rome fell, so shall the U.S. fall if we carry on in this continuing corruption within society.

I don't think it's too late for us, but my hopes of really growing into a "Shining City on a Hill" are growing thinner every day as corruption grows more and more public and rampant.

j.p.

[Purge]

Here's the answer:

7_SobkISNrY

I'm a proud member.

[TheSeasonOfFire]

How about some Campaign finance reform, so special interests can stop buying politicians?

[Publius]

Follow the Constitution. You know, that "flawed" "antiquated" document written by a bunch of white slave owners a few hundred years ago? That document which spells out not what America can do to you or on your behalf, but what it cannot do to you, or what it cannot force upon you to aid others.

Hear, hear!

Darth los points out that the parties are big tents. They each consist of a bunch of different constituencies, each with different interests and goals. So why try to impose one-size-fits-all policies that you can never get everyone to agree on? It's that attempt that creates gridlock. The attempt to bite off more than a government of such extent can or should chew. More people will be more happy with the rules they have to live under if New Yorkers can have the kind of health system they prefer, Idahoans can have the kind of health system they prefer, and so on.

[mista_mo]

Just move to another country.

[Arcades057]

Hear, hear!

Darth los points out that the parties are big tents. They each consist of a bunch of different constituencies, each with different interests and goals. So why try to impose one-size-fits-all policies that you can never get everyone to agree on? It's that attempt that creates gridlock. The attempt to bite off more than a government of such extent can or should chew. More people will be more happy with the rules they have to live under if New Yorkers can have the kind of health system they prefer, Idahoans can have the kind of health system they prefer, and so on.

The problem is, people want their paradise wherever they may be, so they change things. City people move to rural areas because zoning laws are shite, cost of living has skyrocketed, and finding work is nearly impossible, since they managed to raise the minimum wage to umpteen-bajillion-an-hour. As soon as they get around "the bumpkins" they feel it's their duty, nay, their God-given right to change those "poor country folk" into the same kind of retards and cockmonglers that destroyed life in the city. (no offense to retards or cockmonglers)

They'll just keep moving like a bunch of limp-wristed locusts, ruining parts of the country, until there's nothing left but model cities like Detroit, DC, and E. St. Louis.

[strayrider]

They'll just keep moving like a bunch of limp-wristed locusts, ruining parts of the country, until there's nothing left but model cities like Detroit, DC, and E. St. Louis.

You really can't blame limp-wristed locusts for behaving like limp-wristed locusts ... can you? What can a limp-wristed locust be, other than a limp-wristed locust?

;)

-stray-

[darth los]

Hear, hear!

Darth los points out that the parties are big tents. They each consist of a bunch of different constituencies, each with different interests and goals. So why try to impose one-size-fits-all policies that you can never get everyone to agree on? It's that attempt that creates gridlock. The attempt to bite off more than a government of such extent can or should chew. More people will be more happy with the rules they have to live under if New Yorkers can have the kind of health system they prefer, Idahoans can have the kind of health system they prefer, and so on.


I like that idea very much, Actually, federalism might make the most sense and is pretty much how the founding fathers envisioned it.

When did the federal gov't start overstepping their bounds? Who knows. Perhaps around the time of the implementation of the federal reserve or income tax but one thing is for sure: The way this country is run is a clusterfuck and as exhibit A I give you the U.S. Senate which as evidenced in the health care "debate" is probably the most important, disfunctional body in the country. How is it a democracy when one man can hold up legislation that will benefit hundreds of millions of people? There's something seriosly wrong there.

It's just common sense that a gun law that works grat in montana gets thousands killed on the streets of NYC, so it doesn't make sense for sweeping federal legislation that binds both states, both with different challenges and demographcs, to the same set of laws. Most things, with the exception of slavery, segregation, invasion of privacy, etc. shoud should be left up to the states to make laws that make sense for them.

:cool:

[strayrider]

When did the federal gov't start overstepping their bounds?

Whiskey Rebellion 1791-1794 IMHO. Honest Abe Lincoln then took it to new heights.


Who knows. Perhaps around the time of the implementation of the federal reserve or income tax but one thing is for sure: The way this country is run is a clusterfuck and as exhibit A I give you the U.S. Senate which as evidenced in the health care "debate" is probably the most important, disfunctional body in the country. How is it a democracy when one man can hold up legislation that will benefit hundreds of millions of people? There's something seriosly wrong there.

I believe that most Americans oppose President Obama's health care plan. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/september_2009/health_care_reform If one man (Obama) rams it down our throats, how is it Democracy?


It's just common sense that a gun law that works grat in montana gets thousands killed on the streets of NYC, so it doesn't make sense for sweeping federal legislation that binds both states, both with different challenges and demographcs, to the same set of laws. Most things, with the exception of slavery, segregation, invasion of privacy, etc. shoud should be left up to the states to make laws that make sense for them.

:cool:

Agreed.

:D

-stray-

[darth los]

If one man (Obama) rams it down our throats, how is it Democracy?

Actually, this healthcare bill is far from what he originally spoke out in favor of. In fact he has outsourced the writing of this bill to the congress (part of the reason why it's taken so long). Imo, Obama has been so hands off it's not even funny, which is part of the reason why this bill is so screwed up.

At this point his administration will take anything and call it health care reform just for the political victory. To not do so would be disasterous for him and his party and the reps know it. And don't think for one minute that the reps aren't trying to get a political victory of their own by killing this bill (at this point that's nearly impossible) and therefore his presidency.

It's sad when the motivating factor in most legislation is political survival and gaining seats in the next election instead of where the focus should be: The needs and will of the American people.

:cool:

[strayrider]

It's sad when the motivating factor in most legislation is political survival and gaining seats in the next election instead of where the focus should be: The needs and will of the American people.

:cool:

This being the case, both the Democrats and the Republicans should be compelled to scrap this bill in order to fulfill the wishes of the majority of the American people. The Democrats are not willing to do this. The Republicans are at least making it harder for them to subvert the will of the people and as an Independent, in this case specifically (but not in all cases), I favor the Republicans.

:D

-stray-

[darth los]

This being the case, both the Democrats and the Republicans should be compelled to scrap this bill in order to fulfill the wishes of the majority of the American people. The Democrats are not willing to do this. The Republicans are at least making it harder for them to subvert the will of the people and as an Independent, in this case specifically (but not in all cases), I favor the Republicans.

:D

-stray-

The problem with that is that as one political party, normally the governing one (democrats in this case), enacts their agenda, which the majority of the American people elected them to do by the way, the party that's out of power likes to codemn the legislation but rarely puts forth a coherent plan of their own. (Republicans in this case)

And it's not to take sides because virtually the opposite was true as the reps ran the war on terror from 01'-08'.

It's really simple actually. If the American people liked the way the reps ran things they'd be in power as we speak. However, only the republicans could screw things up so badly that either a black man or a woman was going to be elected President of the United states. It didn't matter if Abe Lincoln himself came back from the grave and ran on the GOP ticket, the republican candidate was going to get crushed. The only purpose the GOP candidate served in this past election was playing the Washington generals to the Democrats HArlem Globetrotters.

So now they have a taste of the democratic agenda and if the people feel it's not what this country needs they'll be voted out as well. Imo, the problem is (one of them anyway) like in many other areas of American life (health insurance for example) there's not enough choice. So waht's the plan next time? To vote the Dems out and put back in power the reps who literally ran this country into the ground for the better part of this decade?

Can i have what's behind door # 3 instead please? :rolleyes:

:cool:

---------- Post added at 11:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------


Just move to another country.

Like canada? :p

[Mike70]

However, only the republicans could screw things up so badly that either a black man or a woman was going to be elected President of the United states.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:
though i have not participated in this thread (nor do i really intend to), this cracked me the hell up.

i'm done with the political discussions here but this gem demands a tip of the hat.

nice one, darth

[darth los]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:
though i have not participated in this thread (nor do i really intend to), this cracked me the hell up.

i'm done with the political discussions here but this gem demands a tip of the hat.

nice one, darth

Thnx, mike.

But it seems that in life it's the things that ring true that make the best comedy.

Also, it's a shame that you won't participate. I understand why though. The debate often degenerates into romper-room type dialouge. But it's lamentable that would stop you, someone who obviously has alot to add to the issue, from adding your two cents. :(

Anyway, thanks for stopping by in my humble thread.

Oh, BTW, i see it's almost ZFE time for you so propper protocol is to go see MZ for you initiation assignment. :lol:

:cool:

[kortick]

"Politicians are bred to run for office, not to run the office once they get it. That, they don’t have a clue about."- Andrew Vachss


too many decisions are being made
by corporations who pay off an official
be it democrat or republican, to vote
the way that benefits them and not the
people.

there is too much special interest money, lobbyists,
and whoremasters are running loose in the
marble halls.

It would be difficult to find a more whorish and
tawdry profession than politics.
(actual whores excluded, pls.)

these shitheads would argue how to seal an
envelope, the level of importance on what
they are fighting over dont matter as long as
someone is paying them.

and everybody pays.

"All sociopaths are encapsulated. Nobody else counts. Take politicians—the way they breed is to fuck the rest of us." -A.V.

[darth los]

too many decisions are being made
by corporations who pay off an official
be it democrat or republican, to vote
the way that benefits them and not the
people.

there is too much special interest money, lobbyists,
and whoremasters are running loose in the
marble halls.

And that statement right there trancends party lines. Campaign finace reform is perhaps the subjevt that is most boring to the American people and at the same time until we get it done, you'e right. Nothing is going to change.

I hate talking and not having specifics, but i was watching msnbc the other day and the said that Max Baucus (D) has recieved 2.5-3 millions dollars in the past 4 years from the health insurance companies.

And this is the guy the President first tasked with coming up with a healthcare bill. When stuff like that is going on is there any wonder why things never changed.

And I'm sorry but there's no nice way to say this but the American people need to get off their fat lazy asses, turn of the facebok, put down the i phones and actually PARTICIPATE in the process. Being a U.S. citizen is not a spectator sport. People need to get educated and involved and stop armchair quarterbacking.

Because it doesn't matter how much money these bastards raise, if we hold them accountable for their votes come election time all the money in God's bank account isn't going to save their jobs. And in the end that's what they are really concerned about, the prestige. None of these people in congress NEED these jobs. They could make exponetially more money in the private sector but it's that ego that keeps them there.

There has to be a better way man.

:cool:

[Mike70]

The debate often degenerates into romper-room type dialouge. But it's lamentable that would stop you, someone who obviously has alot to add to the issue, from adding your two cents. :(



there's simply no use in wasting keyboard energy on some of the folks around here. i have followed this thread and am amazed some people here have the brain power to breathe.

my biggest problem with some of the positions in this thread is oversimplification. oversimplification of complex events is THE major hallmark of a weak mind. reducing everything in a way that allows you to blame liberals (or conservatives) for every single thing that has happened in american history is indicative, to me at least, of someone who is incapable of understanding complex historical events and seeing them in context. it is also indicative of paranoia, which is a symptom of several psychiatric conditions, none of them good.

there is simply no talking to anyone who practices this sort of mental reductionism.

i will throw off one parting shot: the constitution. yes, it has served us well (more or less) but it isn't sacred nor divinely inspired. it was written by men, long, long ago. it is not perfect and the fact that the founding fathers included provisions for amending it or changing it, proves that they were a hell of lot more farsighted and wise than some folks alive today. 1788 was a fuck of a long time ago. if you don't think that human society, values, ideas, etc. have changed and changed radically since the late 18th century, i would submit that you are living in a reality based on your own large intestine. things change. that is one of the fundamental truths of the universe.

[strayrider]

The problem with that is that as one political party, normally the governing one (democrats in this case), enacts their agenda, which the majority of the American people elected them to do by the way, the party that's out of power likes to codemn the legislation but rarely puts forth a coherent plan of their own. (Republicans in this case)

Agreed (for the most part, at any rate). Republicans have become quite incoherent in many ways over the past decade or so. That is one of the biggest reasons that I slammed the door in their faces years ago (which, incidentally, chopped off the pecker of the RINO before it could sodomize me any further).

As for your "majority" of the American people comment-- should read "majority of people who actually voted". Unfortunately, a great number of people who are eligible to vote, do not. I believe the percentile is anywhere from 50% to 65% in any given election.


However, only the republicans could screw things up so badly that either a black man or a woman was going to be elected President of the United states.

Yes. When we look at the losers that Democrats put up for election and WIN we can clearly see how far the Grand Ol' Party has fallen. Losers on the left, losers on the not so far left. My solution is to hold a big Rep/Dem pow wow in DC in which all current politicians are required to attend. Then have NORAD drop a nuke on their bloated, self-important heads.


So now they have a taste of the democratic agenda and if the people feel it's not what this country needs they'll be voted out as well. Imo, the problem is (one of them anyway) like in many other areas of American life (health insurance for example) there's not enough choice. So waht's the plan next time? To vote the Dems out and put back in power the reps who literally ran this country into the ground for the better part of this decade?

Your last point first. Republicans did not run this country into the ground by themselves. They had help from Democrats.

The health care "debate" is not about health care. It is about power and leverage. I personally do not believe that either party gives a shit about your health, my health, or anyone's health.

If any sort of health care bill passes before Obama crashes and burns, it will become a shrieking point for Democrats in all elections for the foreseeable future-- right up there with Social Security. "Don't vote Republican, "they" will take away your Social Security AND your health care benefits! Vote Democrat, "we" care!"

All the while giggling fat and happy with their very own health and retirement plan that we, the unwashed masses and useful idiots, are not privy to.

The good thing about this is that it will result in the eventual melt down of both parties.


my biggest problem with some of the positions in this thread is oversimplification. oversimplification of complex events is THE major hallmark of a weak mind. reducing everything in a way that allows you to blame liberals (or conservatives) for every single thing that has happened in american history is indicative, to me at least, of someone who is incapable of understanding complex historical events and seeing them in context. it is also indicative of paranoia, which is a symptom of several psychiatric conditions, none of them good.

Mike, it would would help if you could provide an example or two for discussion purposes.


there is simply no talking to anyone who practices this sort of mental reductionism.

Sure there is. You talk to me all of the time. :p :D


i will throw off one parting shot: the constitution. yes, it has served us well (more or less) but it isn't sacred nor divinely inspired. it was written by men, long, long ago. it is not perfect and the fact that the founding fathers included provisions for amending it or changing it, proves that they were a hell of lot more farsighted and wise than some folks alive today. 1788 was a fuck of a long time ago. if you don't think that human society, values, ideas, etc. have changed and changed radically since the late 18th century, i would submit that you are living in a reality based on your own large intestine. things change. that is one of the fundamental truths of the universe.

Ah, but the big question is, is change always for the better? I say no! Some change must be resisted by every means available, up to and including violence. We have a very rich world history to look back on and learn from. Mistakes that were made centuries ago still apply today, if the people would educate themselves (the gov ain't gonna do it for you, they know history and count on you to NOT know it).

As a side note: I was recently flipping through one of my children's high school American history books published just a couple of years ago-- talk about a train wreck! There were lots and lots of descriptions of America as a "democracy" (which is the WORST form of government, BTW) yet little or no mention of the Republic. What the heck? It is no wonder that we are in the dire straits that we are in in this country-- this festering carcass of what could have been a shining beacon on a hill. It seems to me that every progressive generation of Americans becomes more educated and enlightened ... and as a result, more stupid. It is no wonder that my son takes his marching orders from Trent Reznor, rather than Thomas Jefferson, or Ben Franklin. (of course, at his age I took my "orders" from Ronnie James Dio, so what can I say?). :lol:

At any rate, this is a good thread and I tip my hat to Darth for starting it.

And Mike, don't jump ship just yet. You are obviously a very educated individual and I often use you as a "barometer" in many discussions. Some of your posts have changed my point of view and knowledge base in certain areas--for you to simply "opt out" of some discussions might very well leave a void ...

:D

-stray-

[rongravy]

My personal opinion is that they are all corrupt, but Dem's are the worst. At least Rep's don't intrude upon your life to teach you the right from wrong as they see it. I'd rather people do things without telling me for my safety's sake than someone telling me what they are doing for me as they are "saving my soul". This is funny as a bunny to me. I don't like being treated as a dummy, as things are now. I say bring back Reagan...
dig his ass up and bring some normalcy to my life again...

[kortick]

i dont understand how u get that opinion.
the republicans are the ones who would ban
abortion, if thats not telling u whats right and
wrong then what is? thats only one example.

But u are correct, they both are corrupt and
useless. and lucky me as a registered independant
i get bothered by both of them.

i think the way to keep them under control is for
each state to have a fund where the elected officials
are followed around with cameras all the time so we know
what those sneaky little bastards are doing always.
like a baby monitor for the morally bankrupt.

[Publius]

And that statement right there trancends party lines. Campaign finace reform is perhaps the subjevt that is most boring to the American people and at the same time until we get it done, you'e right. Nothing is going to change.

What kind of campaign finance reform do you have in mind? IMHO, further campaign finance reform is pretty hard to square with the 1st Amendment. McCain-Feingold is on pretty shaky ground as it is, with some parts already having been struck down.

Besides, most races involve an incumbent and a challenger. Most types of campaign finance reform reduce the ability of both to get their message out. All that does is increase the advantages of incumbents. How's that for change?



Can i have what's behind door # 3 instead please? :rolleyes:


That's the "Tea Party," which has been outpolling the Republicans in some generic ballots. ;)

[darth los]

My personal opinion is that they are all corrupt, but Dem's are the worst. At least Rep's don't intrude upon your life to teach you the right from wrong as they see it. I'd rather people do things without telling me for my safety's sake than someone telling me what they are doing for me as they are "saving my soul". This is funny as a bunny to me. I don't like being treated as a dummy, as things are now. I say bring back Reagan...
dig his ass up and bring some normalcy to my life again...


i dont understand how u get that opinion.
the republicans are the ones who would ban
abortion, if thats not telling u whats right and
wrong then what is? thats only one example.

But u are correct, they both are corrupt and
useless. and lucky me as a registered independant
i get bothered by both of them.

i think the way to keep them under control is for
each state to have a fund where the elected officials
are followed around with cameras all the time so we know
what those sneaky little bastards are doing always.
like a baby monitor for the morally bankrupt.

Republicans are all for no government intervention in the lives of private citizens until they're not.

They are the party that has the audacity to propose legislation that dictates social activity and behavior. It's one thing to believe in somethin. It's quite another to attempt to impose those belifs on others and make them live the way you want to.

Example # 1: Gay marriage.

Example # 2: Abortion.

Example number # 3. Terry Schaivo. The reps literally called a special session of congress in order to interfere in what was supposed to be a private family matter.

Nuff said.



What kind of campaign finance reform do you have in mind? IMHO, further campaign finance reform is pretty hard to square with the 1st Amendment. McCain-Feingold is on pretty shaky ground as it is, with some parts already having been struck down.


It may very well be hard to square with what is constitutional. However, in the course of this countries history there have been Landmark Supreme court decisions that do not stick to the letter of the constitution.

#1: The issue of race is a big one. I don't have time to go into it right now but quickly, according to the constitution The doctrine of "seperate but equal " established in Plessy v. Fergusson in 1896 isprobably the correct decision. However, the is common sense and morality. Two intagible that the grand old document does not take into account. When the doctrine was overturned in the Brown v. Board of ed. decision in 1954 they made the argument on what were basically psycological and moral grounds. Here's a quick cut and paste:


This question was posed:

"Does segregation of children in public schools solely on the basis of race, even though the physical facilities and other "tangible" factors may be equal, deprive the children of the minority group of equal educational opportunities?"

The justices came to this decision:

"We believe that it does...

Segregation of white and colored children in public schools has a detrimental effect upon the colored children. The impact is greater when it has the sanction of the law, for the policy of separating the races is usually interpreted as denoting the inferiority of the negro group. A sense of inferiority affects the motivation of a child to learn. Segregation with the sanction of law, therefore, has a tendency to [retard] the educational and mental development of negro children and to deprive them of some of the benefits they would receive in a racial[ly] integrated school system...

We conclude that, in the field of public education, the doctrine of "separate but equal" has no place. Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal. Therefore, we hold that the plaintiffs and others similarly situated for whom the actions have been brought are, by reason of the segregation complained of, deprived of the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment."

There's no argument there based on the law, just what's right.


Staying on the issue of race, as a minotiry and a law student i must say that that affirmative action seems unconstitutional on it's face yet there's no denying that it is needed in order to level the playing field, although i suspect there are those that feel exactly the opposite.


Another example, which I'm sure pro lifers are familiar with is the right to privacy more specifically the roe v. wade decision. Believers in "original intent" believe that no where in the document does it confer that right. It took alot of taking what was implied in the constitution in order to come up with that one...

Sometimes common sense and morality must take priority over what is written on paper. Campaign finace reform ultimately goes to the heart of the well being and quality of life of every man woman and child in this great and sometimes frustrating country.

:cool:

[JDFP]

Republicans are all for no government intervention in the lives of private citizens until they're not.

They are the party that has the audacity to propose legislation that dictates social activity and behavior. It's one thing to believe in somethin. It's quite another to attempt to impose those belifs on others and make them live the way you want to.

Example # 1: Gay marriage.

Example # 2: Abortion.


As opposed to liberals who believe that I should have to pay higher taxes because I work for a living to help pay for people on welfare / WIC / government assistance who don't work? I work for a living, I pay my bills on time (relatively speaking within a few days), and pay extremely high taxes based on my income (20% just for fed taxes, and more on the 120 plus hours of over-time I put in for 2009 alone, and I would have worked more if I could), I'm sorry, but if someone decides it's a good idea to have 3 kids when they can't afford themselves much less children, I shouldn't be responsible for paying for those kids from my money that I work for through my taxes -- and I sure as hell shouldn't be responsible for those parents being irresponsible in their choices.

I don't have a problem with legislation on abortion on a legal matter (moral is different), but I do have an issue with my tax money going to government programs to help provide for abortion for women who can't afford one. Except in cases of rape and/or incest, a woman puts herself into that situation, if she wants an abortion, she should pay for it. I shouldn't have to pay for that, it's not my responsibility.

I don't have a problem with people having health care. Should everyone have health care in a "perfect world" and be insured? Sure. Should I be responsible for having to pay for another persons health-care through my taxes? Hell no. I work for a living, I pay for my own health-care insurance. Unless you're a minor (which an argument can be made for), I shouldn't have to pay for another person's insurance, especially if that person is not working themselves. It's not my responsibility to pay for other adults to be responsible about having health insurance. I don't really care if it sounds heartless, but I just shouldn't be responsible for another person's health and health insurance through my taxes (with some exceptions for minors / senior citizens who worked their lives and put into the system like I am). I pay for mine, they should pay for theirs.

I don't have a problem with gay marriage as a legal matter. It's a piece of paper, at least on a government/state level, but if the State attempts to interfere with the Church in saying: "Hey, you have to allowed gay couples the right to get married in your Church or we'll cut off assistance to such-and-such program that benefits you" then I have a major issue with it. The separation of Church and State is to protect the Church from the State first and foremost. The government should not have the right to dictate funding-programs based on a matter that many millions of Americans (and organized religions) find to be immoral -- regardless of what your or my opinion is on the matter.

You're right, it's one thing to believe in equal health-care, government assistance, and other government pleasantries, but it's another when the government comes to me and forces me to pay for these things for people who are capable of working but don't, I'd call that the government imposing on me with their beliefs. It's also most certainly passing social beliefs by telling people: "Hey, have kids and can't afford them? Don't want to work yourself? Don't worry about it! The state will pay for your health-care! The state will pay for your abortion if you want it! The state will pay for your food-stamps and WIC and everything else you need!" -- all the while digging into my wallet for the cash for these programs.

I work in the private sector for finance dealing with federal loans. You better believe the vast majority of people I deal with on a daily basis are losers who want to use, abuse, and break the system for their own merit. I have no respect for lazy people that want to sit on their ass all day and pump out more children they can't afford (which I will be paying for through my taxes again) and from all I have experienced -- there are some people that truly need help from time to time, but this is a minority of people that use the system for the right reasons. I don't mind paying for someone's unemployment for a limited period of time, but I have a problem paying for protracted unemployment/welfare for people that could get a job doing something but "they'd rather not" do that type of work. I don't care if someone likes the job or not, you work because you're supposed to, it's your responsibility to handle your finances and bills, not mine.

Telling people not to worry about working, paying bills, being socially responsible about your sexual activity because "Mother Government" will take care of you and your children -- I'd call that the most blatant showing of "proposing government legislation that dictates social activity and behavior" out there.

j.p.

[rongravy]

Republicans are all for no government intervention in the lives of private citizens until they're not.

They are the party that has the audacity to propose legislation that dictates social activity and behavior. It's one thing to believe in somethin. It's quite another to attempt to impose those belifs on others and make them live the way you want to.

Example # 1: Gay marriage.

Example # 2: Abortion.

Example number # 3. Terry Schaivo. The reps literally called a special session of congress in order to interfere in what was supposed to be a private family matter.

Nuff said.



:cool:

I dunno, alot of (lol, semi)young Republican South Parketeers like myself are down with abortion, except when it's used to promote promiscuity. Gay marriage? Fine with me. I agree that religious nuts wanna push their beliefs on you but damn...
Dem's always wanna keep you from anything fun. Guns, tobacco, or whatever gets you off.
Hate Republicans all you want, but at least you know where they stand. We almost had another Bill Clinton in office, Edwards, or worse... Clinton's wife. Another 4-8 years of people "accidentally" committing suicide.
Everyone forgets that the Dem's held Congress the last 2 years Bush was in office. Those are the fuckers that put us where we are now. The war?
Ask all those gassed Kurds how they feel about faulty intelligence...

[Mike70]

They are the party that has the audacity to propose legislation that dictates social activity and behavior. It's one thing to believe in somethin. It's quite another to attempt to impose those belifs on others and make them live the way you want to.

Example # 1: Gay marriage.

Example # 2: Abortion.

Example number # 3. Terry Schaivo. The reps literally called a special session of congress in order to interfere in what was supposed to be a private family matter.



gay marriage: why the fuck does anyone really care? i mean seriously, there are far more important things going. as for the "sanctity" of marriage, i think that went out the window the first time you could get married by a fat dude in an elvis suit at a drive-thru window in vegas.

abortion: no one's fricking business. that is a private matter and other people's opinions on it should count for less than nothing.

as for legislating morality, there was a great experiment in that 80 years ago called prohibition. we all know just how marvelously that turned out. you would think that such an epic disaster would've taught people something but apparently it hasn't.


a great canadian once said, " the govt. has no place in the bedrooms of the nation." truer words have probably never come out of the mouth of a politician. what two (or more) adults do in private is of absolutely no fucking (haha aren't i funny) concern to anyone. period. i don't really care if folks wanna tie each other up and go at it until the gangrene sets it. it is of no matter to me. it isn't my business.