Akmal Shaikh executed

[capncnut]

Click (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/29/amnesty-akmal-shaikh-execution-reaction) for article.

Lowdown: Briton caught with four kilos of heroin at Ürümqi Diwopu International Airport, sentenced to death, Human Rights go loopy about it, China says "fuck you", Akmal is executed.

Personally I agree with the Chinese government. They have laws that emphatically state the death penalty for drug smuggling and this piece of shit knew that. First he denies all knowledge, which is a joke cos four kilos ain't a bag of peanuts. I don't fall for his family's claims of "he was tricked into carrying the drugs by a criminal gang" either. Then, after learning that China goes lenient on people who are mentally ill, Akmal pulls the "oh, I'm bi-polar" crap. He's just like that Gary McKinnon. Faces multiple life sentences and then starts spouting that he's got Aspergers. Gimme a break! :rolleyes:

That fuckwit Gordon Brown isn't helping things either, condemning China's government and expressing his anger over it. Relations are bad enough without that fat prick talking shite. Really pisses me off.

China + drug smuggling = death. Simple as.

[mista_mo]

You just wait Brett, some fat rich Scotsmen is going to need a liver and WHAM, one six pound bag of Akmal is gonna be tossed into that man quicker then you can say "4 kilos of heroin". God bless China, I love that place. Where else can you buy human organs off the market?

[Danny]

i find it hard to feel sorry for him, i mean was he thinking "wow, these 4 kilos of heroin are gonna save lives!", of course not, he was a drug mule after some cash regardless of how people got hurt by it. I think the death penaltys harsh, but if he was trying to get them into a country where thats the result, trying to risk his life to make money of this junk then he was clearly an idiot to begin with.

[capncnut]

The news is full of this today, and everyone bashing China. It's not as if this man was a reporter, aid worker, or regular law abiding citizen - he's a friggin' drug smuggler!

[Tricky]

Thats because our society has gone soft & we are all told we should take pity on criminals & scumbags by these left wing politicians who were all students & activists in the 60's & 70's :mad: I havent got time to go off on the rant im thinking about at the moment as im going out in a few mins, but you get my drift! I can guarantee if the pricks who assaulted me on xmas eve are even caught, they'll get off lightly due to all this softly softly human rights shit too, whereas i'd like to see them publicly birched

[Chic Freak]

I totally disagree. This guy was a complete froot loop with a history of severe mental illness who didn't have a clue what he was doing- he thought he was "on his way to become a popstar" at the time- and his trial was not fair. I am very sad to hear that once again someone with mental health problems has completely slipped through the cracks and effectively been punished in the harsest possible way for being ill! :(

[AcesandEights]

I keep hearing ironclad opinions on this guy's mental health status. He was faking it. He was definitely seriously ill. Anyone have any definitive, or even arguably decent sources to share on the issue of Mr. Shaikh's mental health? I've only read a few articles and opinion really does seem divided and based on personal preference as opposed to actual facts.

Anyway, it seems to me a good effort was put forth on his behalf by both his government and several human rights groups, so I don't know that his case fell through any cracks, and though I think China's government is a haven for barbarous & opportunistic killers, there is no doubt about the law in this case. The only question particular to this instance (yes, I'm ignoring the death penalty debate)is, was this dude really mentally ill, and--if so--was it to a great enough extent that it should mitigate his penalty for breaking of the law? And that's always a going to be a contentious question.

[capncnut]

Anyone have any definitive, or even arguably decent sources to share on the issue of Mr. Shaikh's mental health?
The Chinese government say he had no mental health issues when they brought him in. The claims were only made recently in the build up to his execution. Naturally his family and supporters demanded he be tested again but, y'know, there's just no fooling China.

Edit: I know it's not much of a consolation to his family but Akmal was orginally supposed to be executed by firing squad. This was then changed to the more compassionate "bullet to the neck" method, before finally dishing it out via lethal injection. I think he was lucky personally.

[Mike70]

the real question is: does the punishment fit the crime? the death penalty in china is applicable to 60 different offenses, many of them non-violent crimes like tax evasion and embezzlement.

i have no opinion on this case whatsoever. i haven't followed it and frankly, this is pretty much the first time it's popped up on my radar. but as for china's "legal" system, i have no respect and no use for it. it is an affront to what i feel is paramount in a legal system, in particular, fairness, openness to the public and a concern for the rights of the accused.

yes, the rights of the accused are extremely important. i certainly don't want criminals to go free but i do expect, nay demand, that they be found guilty in a fair, open manner; their rights are protected and they are given every opportunity to defend themselves.

the rights of the accused aren't trivial nor are they technicalities. they are a fundamental part of any society that bases itself around the dignity of the individual. anyone of us can guarantee that we won't commit a crime. what none of us can guarantee is that we won't someday be accused of one.

[capncnut]

the real question is: does the punishment fit the crime?
Of course it doesn't, but that's the rules over there.

Get a load of this:

ZFv0eS5p9hs
This was the song he hoped would make him a star and get him a recording contract. He might've been a nutter but it still don't change the fact he was carrying four kilos of brown sugar.

[Mike70]

Get a load of this:

ZFv0eS5p9hs
This was the song he hoped would make him a star and get him a recording contract. He might've been a nutter but it still don't change the fact he was carrying four kilos of brown sugar.

:eek::stunned:
that is beyond dreadful. in fact, that is so bad it doesn't even suck.

they'll have to do better than that to show this "history of bizarre behavior." perpetrating shitty acts of musicality does not make one mentally ill. if it did they'd have to commit everyone who's appeared on american idol, xfactor, and any show with the words "has talent" in its title.

[capncnut]

Now here's the next set:

1. Four kilos of heroin. That's a fuckload of money right there. Would some drug dealer really trust that amount of skag with a total retard? I think not.

2. He claims a guy called Okole gave him a suitcase to take to China and the guy would meet him there. Right, pal. You got the brains to write a song, you got the brains to travel around the world, but you ain't got the brains to think, "mmm... what's in this suitcase?" I'm sorry but this don't fly with me (no pun intended, or maybe it was). You knew what you were transporting, you were stupid enough to do it, and you gave up everybody's names when you were arrested. Come on peeps, think about it. Was he really an innocent mule? I think not.

3. Guy's gonna change the world to God but thinks nothing about smuggling heroin? I think not.

Also, some folks are under the impression that the death sentence is too harsh for drug trafficking. Don't moan at me, I'm with you. But you have to understand that heroin kills thousands of people every year, and in China, anything that deliberately causes the death of others is punishable by death itself.

[krakenslayer]

the rights of the accused aren't trivial nor are they technicalities. they are a fundamental part of any society that bases itself around the dignity of the individual. anyone of us can guarantee that we won't commit a crime. what none of us can guarantee is that we won't someday be accused of one.

Fucking right man. A lot of people would do well to remember this...

[Andy]

I For one say good on you China.

The problem with our country (uk) is that we are now far too willing to make excuses for criminals rather than dish out punishments and thats why our society is the way it is, i would welcome some chinesse justice over here.

Also, whether you agree with the death penalty or you think he was mentally ill (yeah right) you shouldnt be condeming china, it is their legal system and i dont think its our place to criticsize it, i dont think our goverment is in any position to criticisize it when quite frankly, our legal system is the joke of the world, where else can you rape a 13 year old girl and get away with a £80 fine? Third world countries have better justice systems than us and our goverment is criticisizing one of the largest and most successful countries of late? Get a fucking grip brown..

Its just like the americans criticisizing the italian justice system for jailing that murderer girl, its their justice system, leave them to it.

In short if you do a crime in another country, you should be prepared to face whatever that countries goverment gives you and when our countries get their own damn legal systems sorted out, THEN we can start criticisizing others.

Sorry for the mini-rant but ive been listening to this on the radio all day today and it really pisses me off all the people whining about it, im sorry but like brett said, you cant carry that much herion and not know, excuses dont wash with me.

[Tricky]

I'd like the bastards who beat me up on Xmas eve to get an asian style birching for it, but unfortunately even if the police find out who they are, the courts over here will let them off with either a few hours community work or a suspended sentence on the promise they'll behave for a few months, justice? I think not

[Chic Freak]

Anyone have any definitive, or even arguably decent sources to share on the issue of Mr. Shaikh's mental health?

This collection of evidence, viewed as a whole, points to a delusional type mental illness in which the patient is not engaging with reality, i.e. is "on a different planet" to the rest of us:


The testimonies of teachers, a priest, a photographer and a nun, all of whom had met him when he was homeless in Poland, and who believed him to be completely delusional and living in a fantasy world;
The very fact that he was homeless, as many people remain homeless due to mental illness- he could have just gone home to his family;
Being bad at music doesn't make you crazy but being obsessed with your crap rabbit song changing the world points to delusions of grandeur (and was reported well before the arrest);
The concern expressed by his doctor (GP) that he was suffering from a progressive mental illness



The Chinese government say he had no mental health issues when they brought him in. The claims were only made recently in the build up to his execution. Naturally his family and supporters demanded he be tested again but, y'know, there's just no fooling China.

Actually, his British psychiatrist was not allowed to testify in court and his posted testimonies were ignored. Mr. Shaikh was also denied the opportunity to be evaluated by a Chinese mental health professional in China who could have testified in court. That is not fair. If they thought he was faking mental illness, they should have put him in front of a court psychiatrist and proved it!

[SRP76]

I don't buy the "he's ill" excuse. You don't just accidentally score a bunch of dope, just stumble into booking passage into China, and oops-excuse-me arrange to get back out. If he had enough mental acuity to accomplish all that, he's got mind enough.

Good riddance.

[Mike70]

Actually, his British psychiatrist was not allowed to testify in court and his posted testimonies were ignored. Mr. Shaikh was also denied the opportunity to be evaluated by a Chinese mental health professional in China who could have testified in court. That is not fair. If they thought he was faking mental illness, they should have put him in front of a court psychiatrist and proved it!

i've read up on this quite a bit since it appeared on my radar. i think the most disturbing thing about is that he was sentenced to death after a 30 min hearing, at which he was not given the opportunity to defend himself or present evidence.

now, if any of you think that is "justice" or that it is ok because it is "the way china does things", i would suggest that you need to stop freebasing poprocks.

[Chic Freak]

You don't just accidentally score a bunch of dope, just stumble into booking passage into China, and oops-excuse-me arrange to get back out. If he had enough mental acuity to accomplish all that, he's got mind enough.

Well he didn't, did he? and no-one's suggesting any of this was an accident, they are suggesting that he was set up by someone who didn't want to take the risk themselves.

[rongravy]

The verdict would be appropriate if the people handing down the judgement were kosher. Fucked up as it is, the law of the land is what you better follow. Or you better be prepared to face the consequences...
This is why I stay out of places like that, or the Middle East. I prefer white friendly places, and there ain't very many. When I was in El Salvador I saw a sign ON THE ARMY BASE that said "Gringos a fueda de Salvador."
This means whitey get out of our country. Funny since all the chicks there wanted to come back with me...
The world is a shit sandwich and we will all have to eat our fill at some point. Extra mayo?

[krakenslayer]

I don't buy the "he's ill" excuse. You don't just accidentally score a bunch of dope, just stumble into booking passage into China, and oops-excuse-me arrange to get back out. If he had enough mental acuity to accomplish all that, he's got mind enough.

Good riddance.

That's a ridiculous argument. No one is saying he ACCIDENTALLY came into possession of the dope, but he clearly WAS manipulated into carrying it by fully compus mentus individuals who have escaped justice and let this poor fruit loop swing for it.

Using your logic, other individuals lacking in adult, rational intellectual capacity who are exploited - for example, kids molested by some creep who offers them candy, tells them it's natural, and threatens them with blackmail if they snitch - would be considered "to blame" for what happens to them.

[Andy]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/30/article-1239471-07B845F2000005DC-746_634x347.jpg

He looks pretty compus mentus to me.

I Dont buy the im ill excuse either, he isnt ill. Someone has said to him "take this smack into china and ill pay you well" and unfortunatly (for him) he got caught.

Well done china, we're too quick to make excuses for people in this country.

[capncnut]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/30/article-1239471-07B845F2000005DC-746_634x347.jpg
That's a cab office radio mic to the left too. Believe me, that's NOT an easy job. Working in a London cab office is mentally exhausting and requires you to have your wits about you. I should know, I did it for five years.

[krakenslayer]

:annoyed:

I'm not saying he's stupid. Mental illness does not equal stupid. I'm saying it's likely he was psychologically unstable, mentally immature and quite possibly pathologically gullible and someone, who is still walking free, probably manipulated him into doing it.

Hey maybe I'm wrong, who knows. But that's the thing. We DON'T know for sure. He didn't get a fair and full trial, that's the whole point.

[Andy]

He didn't get a fair and full trial

I Dont think its our place to say that, maybe he didnt by our standards but like i said we're too forgiving and willing to make excuses for people in this country and unfortunatly for him, he didnt get caught with 4 kilo's of smack here in the uk were he would probally of got a 12 month suspended sentence, he got caught in china. And they thought it was a fair trail.

How they run things in their own country is really up to them.

[Tricky]

I Dont think its our place to say that, maybe he didnt by our standards but like i said we're too forgiving and willing to make excuses for people in this country and unfortunatly for him, he didnt get caught with 4 kilo's of smack here in the uk were he would probally of got a 12 month suspended sentence, he got caught in china. And they thought it was a fair trail.

How they run things in their own country is really up to them.

This sounds like a job for...
http://www.hellblazer.com/media/team-america.jpg

:p

[krakenslayer]

How they run things in their own country is really up to them.

That's what the British nobility said about the Nazis. TBH, I think it's the place of anyone and everyone to point out injustice wherever they see it. People on here do a good amount of that as it is, there's no difference here.

[Mike70]

That's what the British nobility said about the Nazis. TBH, I think it's the place of anyone and everyone to point out injustice wherever they see it. People on here do a good amount of that as it is, there's no difference here.

indeed. nothing is above criticism. period.

---------- Post added at 07:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:03 PM ----------


And they thought it was a fair trail.



this is entirely irrelevant to whether it actually was fair or not. fairness, like integrity, does not work on a sliding scale.

this is also an extremely weak argument. many, many white southerners thought segregation was fair. was it really? did the fact that they thought it was fair have anything to do with how fair it was in actuality? no, it certainly didn't.

[Andy]

That's what the British nobility said about the Nazis. TBH, I think it's the place of anyone and everyone to point out injustice wherever they see it. People on here do a good amount of that as it is, there's no difference here.

Im sorry but i see a great deal of difference between killing millions of people becuase of their religion and sentencing a single man to death for smuggling drugs which would, if they had hit the streets, killed over 26,000 innocent people.

You dont?

Im not talking about genocide and neither is anyone else in this argument, my point is that how the chinesse goverment deal with crime and criminals is up to them. Who are we to tell them how to deal with criminals anyway? Lets get a grip of our own justice system first before we start lecturing the rest of the world eh?


this is entirely irrelevant to whether it actually was fair or not. fairness, like integrity, does not work on a sliding scale.

this is also an extremely weak argument. many, many white southerners thought segregation was fair. was it really? did the fact that they thought it was fair have anything to do with how fair it was in actuality? no, it certainly didn't.

Quite the contuary, fairness is like good and evil, its merely a point of view, not a fact.

Im sure me and you have very different idea's of what fair is. dosnt make either of us right.

[krakenslayer]

Im sorry but i see a great deal of difference between killing millions of people becuase of their religion and sentencing a single man to death for smuggling drugs which would, if they had hit the streets, killed over 26,000 innocent people.

You dont?

yeah I do, but it's really irrelevant the point I am making. separate out the issues here: I drew no direct comparison between this guy and the Jews, in that particular post, I was talking only about the assertion that what goes on in other countries is none of our business.

My point stands: I think people should do everything in their power to point out injustice, whether it be manifested, shout it from rooftops. Like Mike said, nothing is above criticism. Sure, your idea of justice may differ from someone else's, but it's still your responsibility as a free human being to fight whatever YOU, as an individual, see as unjust. In my humble opinion.





Lets get a grip of our own justice system first before we start lecturing the rest of the world eh?

Our justice system isn't so hot, but so what? I didn't think it up and neither did you. At a personal level, we had no more of a hand in dreaming up the laws which govern our country than we had with those that govern China. We criticise the British system, we can criticise the Chinese system, it really doesn't matter what geographical or political region we happen to reside in. I wouldn't, for example, have an issue with a well-informed Chinaman going off on one about British politics, so long as he accepted the problems with China's own political situation.

[rongravy]

This sounds like a job for...
http://www.hellblazer.com/media/team-america.jpg

:p

Fuck yeah!

[Chic Freak]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/30/article-1239471-07B845F2000005DC-746_634x347.jpg

He looks pretty compus mentus to me.

Are you serious? :rockbrow: If so, congratulations on being better than all the most qualified medical staff in the world at identifying complex mental illness in a complete stranger from a single black and white snapshot :rolleyes: No-one in human history has ever been able to successfully diagnose in this way so don't even go there.


That's a cab office radio mic to the left too. Believe me, that's NOT an easy job. Working in a London cab office is mentally exhausting and requires you to have your wits about you. I should know, I did it for five years.

No-one's saying he's thick, we're saying he may have suffered from delusions. There are plenty of highly intelligent and well-educated people who do.


TBH, I think it's the place of anyone and everyone to point out injustice wherever they see it.

+ 1 000 000

As sentient creatures we have the right to criticise injustices that we see, perhaps even the duty.

In this particular instance, my position is that if someone claims mental illness, especially when they have witness testimonies to support their claim, they should be assessed by an impartial psychologist hired by the court. China does have a legal concept of diminished responsibility due to mental illness so saying "that's just how they do it over there" or "justice is relative" is irrelevant to this debate, because the trial was unfair by Chinese standards.

[krakenslayer]

Are you serious? :rockbrow: If so, congratulations on being better than all the most qualified medical staff in the world at identifying complex mental illness in a complete stranger from a single black and white snapshot :rolleyes: No-one in human history has ever been able to successfully diagnose in this way so don't even go there.


:lol::thumbsup:

[shootemindehead]

Fuck him.

I know people who've died from the shit he was carrying and he was carrying a lot of it...too much for the old "oh, I didn't know what I was dong."

He chanced his arm and got caught. Pity the people who gave it to him didn't get caught as well.

No loss as far as I'm concerned.

[Andy]

Tbh I've stopped replying to this topic because if someone keeps telling themself that they are correct then they convince themself of this and once that happens nothing is going to get through to that person.

At the end of the day, the guy commited a criminal offense, whether he was a retard or not, he got his punishment. I honestly don't see a injustice there, in fact I see the opposite whether u agree or not is irrelevant and quite frankly deluding yourself with some grandous idea that this is a injustice and you MUST point that out is pathetic, why don't you go to china and tell the relevant authority what you think?

Also I've read today that the family of this guy are appealing to the British goverment to hold a inquest, why? I really don't see what this is going to acheive apart from strain our relationship with the most powerful country in the world even further. All over some mong who smuggled some smack.:rolleyes:

[krakenslayer]

Tbh I've stopped replying to this topic because if someone keeps telling themself that they are correct then they convince themself of this and once that happens nothing is going to get through to that person.

At the end of the day, the guy commited a criminal offense, whether he was a retard or not, he got his punishment. I honestly don't see a injustice there, in fact I see the opposite whether u agree or not is irrelevant and quite frankly deluding yourself with some grandous idea that this is a injustice and you MUST point that out is pathetic, why don't you go to china and tell the relevant authority what you think?

Also I've read today that the family of this guy are appealing to the British goverment to hold a inquest, why? I really don't see what this is going to acheive apart from strain our relationship with the most powerful country in the world even further. All over some mong who smuggled some smack.:rolleyes:

"Retard?" Have you been reading these posts? He wasn't stupid, he was dusional. He was mental, not retarded.

Anyway, look, I've known a lot of people who weren't retarded OR delusional who've made stupid mistakes in the past but have sorted themselves out, seen the error in their ways and become productive members of society. I know a lot of you guys are living in Robocop land where the easy answer to all of society's problems is to stick all criminals up against a wall and machinegun them, but the fact is that some people do deserve a second chance - I'm not talking about scumbag chav repeat offenders, Harold Shipmans, or terrorists, but ordinary guys who simply fuck up and make a dumbass decision that threatens their future and other people's wellbeing. Lots of us have made bad choices at some point, maybe not to the same extent, but put us in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people, in the wrong frame of mind... and who knows. And if the person in question is off his head that makes it even more poignant.

By all means send him to jail for a few years, teach him a lesson, I wouldn't hope for anything less. But killing the guy is a crock of shit in my book, and I couldn't give a crap if that happens in my country or someone else's. Just because there's nothing anyone can do about it, doesn't mean I have to like it any more than I like the things that go on in Iran or North Korea.

[capncnut]

By all means send him to jail for a few years, teach him a lesson, I wouldn't hope for anything less. But killing the guy is a crock of shit in my book, and I couldn't give a crap if that happens in my country or someone else's. Just because there's nothing anyone can do about it, doesn't mean I have to like it any more than I like the things that go on in Iran or North Korea.
I'm not saying that the punishment was fair. In fact, with the exception of child rape, and murder, I think the death sentence is far too harsh. BUT this is China we are talking about here, not Disneyland. Anyone with half a peanut for a brain surely realises that trafficking over there can only mean something incredibly bad. Like Andy says, if you don't like those apples then go write to China about it. Just don't come crying to us if two well dressed Chinamen come knocking at your door, saying, "herro, is you Martin?" :D

[Andy]

I know a lot of you guys are living in Robocop land where the easy answer to all of society's problems is to stick all criminals up against a wall and machinegun them, but the fact is that some people do deserve a second chance - I'm not talking about scumbag chav repeat offenders, Harold Shipmans, or terrorists, but ordinary guys who simply fuck up and make a dumbass decision that threatens their future and other people's wellbeing.

Possibly the only thing you've said that we come close to agreeing on, only i beleive that if we had severe punishments for crimes such as drug abuse then people might not make that "dumbass decision" in the first place. you know, an actual deterent?

I Do think the death penalty is very severe dont get me wrong but i also acknowlege that it is china's justice system, and it is my personal opinion that this guy was not mentally ill and knew exactly what he was doing.

As ive said before, you do the crime, be prepared to do the time and if you dont like it, feel free to go to china and tell them what you think of them.

[Tricky]

Even if they hadnt put him to death, he should still have got 30 years in some stinking hell hole for what he was carrying, regardless of his mental state!

[darth los]

Even if they hadnt put him to death, he should still have got 30 years in some stinking hell hole for what he was carrying, regardless of his mental state!

Ah, a good segway into what i was thinking about asking next. We're here discussing whether he got a bum deal but the issue of legality of drugs is n issue here as well.

What i mean to say is should anyone, anywhere be locked up (Forget about ececuted) for possesing drugs at all? I see how you feel about it and i have to say i feel exacly the opposite.

The punishments are all skewed everywhere you go anyway. Let's see, in NYC you get a mandatory 15 to life for possessing a frowned upon substance, A child rapist will get 7 and some therapy. :confused:

WTF is that about? As i said earlier, forget bout executions and all that and I'm not saying no jailtime or punishment is warranted but, imo, giving someone a mandatory minimum of 15 years is barbaric in itself.

:cool:

[krakenslayer]

As ive said before, you do the crime, be prepared to do the time and if you dont like it, feel free to go to china and tell them what you think of them.


Like Andy says, if you don't like those apples then go write to China about it. Just don't come crying to us if two well dressed Chinamen come knocking at your door, saying, "herro, is you Martin?" :D

:lol::lol::thumbsup:

I very much doubt, though, that China gives a turd about my opinion one way or the other. :p But the thing I'm defending against for, like, my last five posts is nothing to do with the executed guy himself but the whole "you can't slag it off because that's just how they do it there"-thing. IMO, that's hypocritical because we all get pissed off with, for example, countries with extremist Shari'a law that chop off gay men's willies and execute female rape victims as "adulteresses". Sure, this isn't as extreme as that, but the principle stands. Just because that's their legal system doesn't mean I have to like it or respect it.



and it is my personal opinion that this guy was not mentally ill and knew exactly what he was doing.


You might very well be right, but third-and-fourth hand speculation isn't sturdy enough to convince me that justice was done - particularly when the court didn't even see it necessary to bother pursuing that line of investigation. Like I said, I know my opinion isn't worth shit, but it's mine and I have to live with it. :D

[Andy]

:lol::lol::thumbsup:

I very much doubt, though, that China gives a turd about my opinion one way or the other. :p But the thing I'm defending against for, like, my last five posts is nothing to do with the executed guy himself but the whole "you can't slag it off because that's just how they do it there"-thing. IMO, that's hypocritical because we all get pissed off with, for example, countries with extremist Shari'a law that chop off gay men's willies and execute female rape victims as "adulteresses". Sure, this isn't as extreme as that, but the principle stands. Just because that's their legal system doesn't mean I have to like it or respect it.


You might very well be right, but third-and-fourth hand speculation isn't sturdy enough to convince me that justice was done - particularly when the court didn't even see it necessary to bother pursuing that line of investigation. Like I said, I know my opinion isn't worth shit, but it's mine and I have to live with it. :D

I Think what this whole argument boils down to is your defination of "justice" and your idea of what is just and what isnt. Myself, capn and several others here think that this is justice and he was dealt with appropriately for a man carrying enough smack to kill 28,000 people. Yourself, Chic and several others in this topic obviously think this is unjust and seem to be taking it on yourselves to compare the chinesse to third world countries which practice sharia law and even the nazi's.

I Dont think either of us are going to shift on this matter to be honest as there really isnt any evidence either way, just speculation and opinion.

[krakenslayer]

seem to be taking it on yourselves to compare the chinesse to third world countries which practice sharia law and even the nazi's.


I do see your point mate but, truthfully, I'm really not trying to compare China directly to the Nazis or Shari'a countries - I'm just pointing at some other, different things in the world that people tend to disagree with and using them as an example to show how people always slag off other countries' legal systems. I only picked those particular ones because they are so extreme and I didn't want to use an example we wouldn't all find disagreeable or my point wouldn't make sense.

[Andy]

I do see your point mate but, truthfully, I'm really not trying to compare China directly to the Nazis or Shari'a countries - I'm just pointing at some other, different things in the world that people tend to disagree with and using them as an example to show how people always slag off other countries' legal systems. I only picked those particular ones because they are so extreme and I didn't want to use an example we wouldn't all find disagreeable or my point wouldn't make sense.

Of course i see your point and although i still think its out of context to compare china to the nazi's or sharia states (directly or indirectly) my anger on this topic is not directed at you or chic or anyone else on here, im pissed off at all the human rights groups for almost inciting hate against the chinese in our media, the guys family for demanding an inquest which like i said, i honestly dont see what they hope to get out of that.. and our goverment for their general handling of this situation.

At the end of the day, whether you agree with china's actions or not, the guy commited a criminal act and has to pay the price, unfortunatly he was caught in china so im saying its fair to me that the china handle that themselves without all the meddling from the west, fair enough launch an appeal and ask for clemency but once they have said no and gone ahead with the execution, leave it at that. Greive. Move on, There is no need to damage our relationship with china to this extent when we are now a struggling country ourselves and not the big player on the world stage that we were 70 years ago. Our goverment should have better things to be doing, thats why im annoyed.

[shootemindehead]

One thing's for sure, regardless of whether one thinks the sentence was "fair"or not.

It'll make others think long and hard before bringing that type of substance into China.

---------- Post added at 12:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------


Of course i see your point and although i still think its out of context to compare china to the nazi's or sharia states (directly or indirectly) my anger on this topic is not directed at you or chic or anyone else on here, im pissed off at all the human rights groups for almost inciting hate against the chinese in our media, the guys family for demanding an inquest which like i said, i honestly dont see what they hope to get out of that.. and our goverment for their general handling of this situation.

At the end of the day, whether you agree with china's actions or not, the guy commited a criminal act and has to pay the price, unfortunatly he was caught in china so im saying its fair to me that the china handle that themselves without all the meddling from the west, fair enough launch an appeal and ask for clemency but once they have said no and gone ahead with the execution, leave it at that. Greive. Move on, There is no need to damage our relationship with china to this extent when we are now a struggling country ourselves and not the big player on the world stage that we were 70 years ago. Our goverment should have better things to be doing, thats why im annoyed.

At some point in a discussion, there is usually someone who introduces the "nazis" into the realm of debate as an example, because it is such a touchstone. Regardless of the fact that the vast majority of people haven't the first clue about National Socialism or the period in question. The nazis are such a fantastic bogeyman, it's impossible for some to resist. There's even a name for it. "Godwin's Law".

Whether China chooses to implement a legal structure stipulating that the death penalty be enforced for importing lethal substances onto their soil, is entirely their business and has nothing to do with other nations.

However, it's usually good "politics" for other nations to point their fingers and tut tut, because it creates a convenient distraction from their own short comings.

[darth los]

I've always said that nazi comparisons are the analogy of lazy minds.

It's like a person who curses like a sailor because they lack the capacity to articulate themselves better.

:cool:

[krakenslayer]

*sigh* For the last time:

This was not Reducto Ad Hitlerum. I was not comparing China to the Nazis. Please understand that there are different threads of argument here.

Argument #1: I was saying that I thought China was wrong to execute the guy without a full and fair trial (unfair even by Chinese standards). This condemnation of China is separate from:

Argument #2: I think people should feel free to comment on whatever they see as unfair, even if that is abroad.

In #2 I was comparing the opinion of not being allowed to have an opinion on other countries' policies, to the conduct of certain sections of the British public before WWII. The "adversary" in this case (Hitler and the Nazis) is IRRELEVANT because in this argument I am concentrating exclusively on the behaviour of the "spectators".

If I'd used some other, "softer" analogy - let's say, the massacres that happened in Zimbabwe - we'd instead have been sidetracked onto another argument irrelevant to main issue with people going "Well, I don't believe we should intervene in Zimbabwe, either" or whatever.

[darth los]

*sigh* For the last time:

This was not Reducto Ad Hitlerum. I was not comparing China to the Nazis. Please understand that there are different threads of argument here.

Argument #1: I was saying that I thought China was wrong to execute the guy without a full and fair trial (unfair even by Chinese standards). This condemnation of China is separate from:

Argument #2: I think people should feel free to comment on whatever they see as unfair, even if that is abroad.

In #2 I was comparing the opinion of not being allowed to have an opinion on other countries' policies, to the conduct of certain sections of the British public before WWII. The "adversary" in this case (Hitler and the Nazis) is IRRELEVANT because in this argument I am concentrating exclusively on the behaviour of the "spectators".

If I'd used some other, "softer" analogy - let's say, the massacres that happened in Zimbabwe - we'd instead have been sidetracked onto another argument irrelevant to main issue with people going "Well, I don't believe we should intervene in Zimbabwe, either" or whatever.


:lol:

It wasn't a personal attack dude. If it came off that way i apologize. :o

:cool:

[krakenslayer]

:lol:

It wasn't a personal attack dude. If it came off that way i apologize. :o

:cool:

I know man, I'm sorry if I come across as grumpy. That applies to everyone I've been discussing with on this thread. I have a lot of shit going on just now and it's making me a bit crabbit. :p

[capncnut]

It's also a little 'convenient' that they don't detail the darker side of Akmal's history, and that you have to hunt for it yourself. Just found out he was taken to a tribunal for sexually harassing a female employee, and then unfairly sacked her. The plot thickens.


In 2004, he was accused of sexually harassing a female member of staff and ordered to pay £10,000 in unpaid wages and damages by an employment tribunal, according to the Camden New Journal.