Ben’s Peculiar Thought Process

[Philly_SWAT]

The whole basement strategy vs. boarding up strategy vs. going to 2nd floor/attic strategy has been discussed for years on this board. However, something that I was thinking about recently I don’t think that I have ever seen discussed (although I admit my memory could be bad!) hence my reason for posting this thread.

In NOTLD, Ben is shown in an overall positive light IMO. He seems reasonably intelligent, he is definitely a man of action, makes quick decisions, and does not seem to shy away at assuming a leadership role within a group of strangers that just met. At first glance, he appears to be someone that you would want to be holed up with in a zombie crisis.

But I have to wonder…why did he not even consider the basement strategy? Or for that matter, even consider that the idea did have merit, even if he didn’t think of it on his own? Down here in Florida, it is rare that a house has a basement. A lot of the homes up north that I have seen do have basements…so much so that I would think the natural assumption would be to think that a two-story house did have one as opposed to not having one. Yet, Ben never even looks to find a basement…to see how secure the entrance to said basement is…to see what type of tools and boards are in the basement…to see if there are any people in the basement. I realize that he was scared and freaked out (even though he was not letting that affect his actions) and maybe looking for a basement might not have been on his mind at first, but not at all, the whole time he is boarding up the place and looking for supplies? I know the basement door as shown in the movie was covered by a door in the house, however, if Ben had actually looked for the basement, he would have obviously found the door.

He tells Cooper that the cellar would be a good fall back position…huh?!? So to Ben’s way of thinking, the cellar is a “deathtrap”, but it is a good fallback position in case the interior of the house is breeched? Now don’t get me wrong, I understand that if the interior of the house is NOT breeched, there is no need to cower in the basement, if for no other reason that it would be more comfortable and roomy to be in the main house, and you would have access to the plumbing. But if the house IS breeched, there would be no time to move supplies, radio, TV, etc. into the basement. Ben’s whole line of thinking was very flawed. If the cellar is a deathtrap as he says, there is no need to ever go down there. If it is a good fallback position, then it is obvious that supplies need to be moved there BEFORE it becomes necessary to fall back. There would be no harm in moving something down there…it could easily be brought back up if needed.

So, was Ben not as competent as initially shown to be? Was he so arrogant and “anti-Cooper” that he would not acknowledge anything Cooper said because Cooper was acting like such an ass clown? Ben seemed like a survivor…would he purposely ignore information that could increase his chance of survival just because he was in a pissing contest with Cooper? Did he steal tips intended for the waitress at Beekman’s diner? (OK that was thrown in for humor :) ) And on a similar topic, it seems incredibly stupid that the Coopers, Tom and Judy thought going down there and closing the door while they were in no immediately danger, therefore depriving themselves of water and more importantly, INFORMATION. And yes, I know it’s a movie ,but from a logic standpoint…what are your thoughts and/or explanations?

[JDFP]

This is going to be a wicked epic thread, right up there with: "Was Harry Cooper a racist?" (the guy that started that thread was brilliant as well), and "Lock the Door, Idiots!". Thanks, Philly, for posting this.

There's so many different "What if's" that could be discussed here and considered. What if Mr Cooper hadn't acted in the manner he did and had been more rational? Someone else mentioned in the "Is Harry Cooper a racist?" thread that even though he probably wasn't inherently a racist, Ben probably took his attitude and statements towards him as being racially motivated ("Here's yet another white guy telling me what to do," someone in that thread mentioned).

I think that if Harry Cooper had approached Ben and said: "Look, we should consider the cellar and probably go down there, and this is why... etc. etc." there could have been a possibility that not everyone that evening would have died, but the relationship of understanding/appreciation was blown from the very beginning by Harry's stampeding. I don't think it could have been much worse for Ben if Harry had started referring to him as "boy".

But, to answer your question: I think that the moment Ben believed Harry's attack to be racially motivated then he lost any respect or appreciation for anything Harry would have said. If Harry had said: "Hey, we have a car outside that we can take" I think Ben would have argued with him that they should take his pickup truck instead just for the sake of the hatred between the two men and to be argumentative about being RIGHT. It was a pissing contest. This is part of the reason, for me (I think Dubious would probably agree, as he is the expert on the film around here) that NOTLD holds up so well: The characters are so damned real in their actions/flaws. In real life in the situation of a crisis the most fundamental elements of us as people come up, whether good or bad. Even with the crumbling situation, environment, around them, the hatred between Ben/Harry was about who was RIGHT (and damn the consequences) -- it's alpha-male psychology. Put any group of men in the same room and you're going to have at least two conflicting/dominant personalities that will battle it out while the rest of the group is split between allegiances/alignments.

I never really liked Ben or Harry, personally. I can understand them as characters though because they are realistic in their actions. I gravitate more towards Harry because the man may be an absolute jerk, but what we know is that he is there by his family and is genuinely concerned about their welfare. Ben, well, Ben is so consumed by his anger and hatred towards Cooper that he can't see any other course but his own and won't even consider any other possibilities. If I was personally there, I wouldn't want to be around any of them -- I'd probably go upstairs and sit out on an upstairs window ledge, looking at the ghouls below, smoking cigarettes and would have raided the 'fridge for all the beer in it while waiting for everyone else to figure out what they wanted to do. I've always been a lone person like that, I prefer to keep to myself and stay away from the foolish/idiotic masses of people.

Rule # 1 for me in any Zombie Apocalypse: Get as far away from people as possible in this type of situation. People and their issues are a much greater danger/threat than the ghouls (at least at first). NOTLD is an example of this. If people can't stand together, which often times they cannot in situations of crisis or even in regular situations, it can lead to everyone getting killed. The beast is born in Bethlehem, the center doesn't hold, it's our time come around at last, and all that jazz...

j.p.

[Mike70]

T
I never really liked Ben or Harry, personally. I can understand them as characters though because they are realistic in their actions. I gravitate more towards Harry because the man may be an absolute jerk, but what we know is that he is there by his family and is genuinely concerned about their welfare. Ben, well, Ben is so consumed by his anger and hatred towards Cooper that he can't see any other course but his own and won't even consider any other possibilities. If I was personally there, I wouldn't want to be around any of them -- I'd probably go upstairs and sit out on an upstairs window ledge, looking at the ghouls below, smoking cigarettes and would have raided the 'fridge for all the beer in it while waiting for everyone else to figure out what they wanted to do. I've always been a lone person like that, I prefer to keep to myself and stay away from the foolish/idiotic masses of people.

Rule # 1 for me in any Zombie Apocalypse: Get as far away from people as possible in this type of situation. People and their issues are a much greater danger/threat than the ghouls (at least at first). NOTLD is an example of this. If people can't stand together, which often times they cannot in situations of crisis or even in regular situations, it can lead to everyone getting killed. The beast is born in Bethlehem, the center doesn't hold, it's our time come around at last, and all that jazz...

j.p.

by spock's beard! this pretty much what i was going to say.

i fucking despise people who fancy themselves as "leaders." as for choosing sides, this is something that i refuse to do in real life. i'm not on anybody's "side." i am totally concerned with what is best for me. if the group decides something that i think is totally fucking whack, i will not cooperate and will strike off on my own - regardless of the consequences. "follower" is about the filthiest thing that i can think of to call somebody.


i would not have stayed in that farm for any longer than it took to find weapons, ammo and some canned food. after that, i'd be gone out in the countryside, where you have room to maneuver and aren't trapped in one place. sorry about cooper's kid but that wouldn't be my problem, it'd be his.

[Trin]

I don't think Ben knew the basement was there prior to Cooper coming out of it. He checked out the rest of the house and he looked all over for supplies. The little door was simply overlooked and he never thought about there being a basement. I don't think he ignored it on purpose. The point may be a wee bit contrived by Romero too since his whole script relied on Ben missing the basement.

I also don't think he discounted the basement because it was Cooper's idea. Ben's whole survival strategy was predicated on mobility. He knew they could outrun them in the open better than fight them in a confined space. The basement *was* the worst choice for him. I don't think Tom or Judy would've convinced him either. It wasn't racial or personal.

I believe that if Ben had to choose between the basement or abandoning the house he would've abandoned the house. It was simply bad luck and Cooper's treachery that he got cornered inside and had to flee downstairs.

And finally, people tend to review Night from the perspective of a zombie apocalypse given a trilogy of movies spanning months into the crisis. Ben was seeing things from the perspective of the first night. Stop acting like he should've planned for the long haul.

If the power goes out in your house do you immediately start chopping down trees in the backyard to stock up for the winter? Or do you wait a few hours and see what happens? The power might come back on at any time. If the power is still not on in the morning maybe you start thinking of what to do. It would be unimaginable to think the power would be out forever.

I think the people in Night were in that mode. They didn't imagine the crisis would last months, or even days. They were working from the perspective that they just had to survive a short time.

[SRP76]

There was no need to mess around with a basement. The goal wasn't to die in that house, it was to hold out until they could run away.

In the basement, you cannot get out, which defeats the whole purpose of escaping. Also, when not in immediate danger, nobody wants to lock themselves up someplace where they can't see the enemy. Upstairs, they can keep an eye on the zombies, to be able to see an attack coming and to see an opening for escape.

If you're already in a position that suits your needs, there's really no reason to go looking for a place that does not.

[MoonSylver]

He tells Cooper that the cellar would be a good fall back position…huh?!? So to Ben’s way of thinking, the cellar is a “deathtrap”, but it is a good fallback position in case the interior of the house is breeched?

As Tom says when he is swayed to Ben's way of thinking "IF we have to". That seems Ben's position to me:"Not my first choice, but if Plan A goes to hell it's better than nothing..."


If Harry had said: "Hey, we have a car outside that we can take" I think Ben would have argued with him that they should take his pickup truck instead just for the sake of the hatred between the two men and to be argumentative about being RIGHT. It was a pissing contest.

Eh...don't know if I'd go THAT far. I don't think he's THAT unreasonable. Harry either for that matter. They do show SOME ability to work together, as in when Harry volunteers that there is a set of keys in the basement, or goes upstairs to throw the molotov's. But there IS definitely a rivalry between the two, which DOES get worse as things happen & the situation worsens (especially in the 90 version...)


by spock's beard! this pretty much what i was going to say.

http://www.farah.cl/SB/spock1.jpg


And finally, people tend to review Night from the perspective of a zombie apocalypse given a trilogy of movies spanning months into the crisis. Ben was seeing things from the perspective of the first night. Stop acting like he should've planned for the long haul.

If the power goes out in your house do you immediately start chopping down trees in the backyard to stock up for the winter? Or do you wait a few hours and see what happens? The power might come back on at any time. If the power is still not on in the morning maybe you start thinking of what to do. It would be unimaginable to think the power would be out forever.

I think the people in Night were in that mode. They didn't imagine the crisis would last months, or even days. They were working from the perspective that they just had to survive a short time.

Trin for the win. This is a VERY good point!

[Philly_SWAT]

I don't think Ben knew the basement was there prior to Cooper coming out of it. He checked out the rest of the house and he looked all over for supplies. The little door was simply overlooked and he never thought about there being a basement. I don't think he ignored it on purpose. The point may be a wee bit contrived by Romero too since his whole script relied on Ben missing the basement.
Agree on the contrivance.

I also don't think he discounted the basement because it was Cooper's idea. Ben's whole survival strategy was predicated on mobility. He knew they could outrun them in the open better than fight them in a confined space. The basement *was* the worst choice for him. I don't think Tom or Judy would've convinced him either. It wasn't racial or personal.
I agree that it wasnt racial, not 100% sure it wasnt somewhat personal.

I believe that if Ben had to choose between the basement or abandoning the house he would've abandoned the house. It was simply bad luck and Cooper's treachery that he got cornered inside and had to flee downstairs.
Didn't Ben specifically talk about using the cellar as a fallback position?


And finally, people tend to review Night from the perspective of a zombie apocalypse given a trilogy of movies spanning months into the crisis. Ben was seeing things from the perspective of the first night. Stop acting like he should've planned for the long haul.

If the power goes out in your house do you immediately start chopping down trees in the backyard to stock up for the winter? Or do you wait a few hours and see what happens? The power might come back on at any time. If the power is still not on in the morning maybe you start thinking of what to do. It would be unimaginable to think the power would be out forever.
Using your "power outage" analogy... if you saw a couple of people outside your house that you had reason to believe wanted to cause you harm, but you knew from recent experience that in a hand to hand situation you could easily kill them, would you immediately start tearing boards from the house, breaking expensive dining tables, etc. to board the windows, or would you wait a few hours and see what happens? Especially AFTER you found a gun? Until the very end of the movie, the ghouls do not ever get close to the house much at all, just once I think, when the hand grabs thru the window.


I think the people in Night were in that mode. They didn't imagine the crisis would last months, or even days. They were working from the perspective that they just had to survive a short time.
I would think that from a short term survival aspect, the easiest thing to do would be to go into the basement.


There was no need to mess around with a basement. The goal wasn't to die in that house, it was to hold out until they could run away.If they wanted to run away, they could have done that immediately.

[MoonSylver]

If they wanted to run away, they could have done that immediately.

But THEY didn't think they could, what with Karen being bitten & Barbra being out of it & all.;)

[FoodFight]

I agree with the mobility issue. From his description of the events at Beekmans' we see that he was (presumably) on foot when the crisis began and consequently stole a truck (to get outta Dodge). One of the first things he says to Barbara is that the truck is almost out of gas and and that he is aware of the locked pump (still thinking of escape, as opposed to barricading). With Barbara in a state of shock and few other options remaining, he boards up the house.

Once the remaining characters appear he formulates a previously untenable plan to refuel the truck (and therefore hit the road again). Besides, it was so hot that night that a cool breeze from a country drive would have been refreshing.

At the time he arrived, he could have dealt with the few zombies outside and had a go at refuelling, but the presence of Barbara changed all of that. He gives her simple tasks to complete, speaks to her to keep her involved, and is generally upbeat in his dealings with her. He is now her de facto defender and the key to her survival.

It puts Ben in an even better light that he stays with a defenseless woman instead of setting out alone and this act of humanity is handsomely repaid at movies' end (insert sarcastic face here).

[sandrock74]

One thing I'd like to point out Philly is that moving stuff into the basement, like the television and radio would have been a useless gesture back in the 60's. Remember, they wouldn't have gotten ANY reception for either device while holed up in the basement! By fighting for control of the "main house", not only could they keep their eye on the zombies outside, they could also monitor the tv and radio broadcasts. The basement took that away from them.

Information is key! They all needed the radio and/or television to help them make informed decisions (ideally speaking). Heck, they didn't even forulate the plan to go to Willard until they saw news of a rescue station being there on a tv newscast.

I had always assumed that was a part of what Ben meant when he called the basement a "deathtrap". Going down there and sealing oneself in was inviting a media blackout and depriving oneself of observing the enemy movement outside your door. You'd have no clue what was happening upstairs and outside. It's not like checking for a fire where you'd feel the door to see if it was warm, if it is then keep it closed. You could listen through the door, hear nothing and open it to a room full of zombies staring at you!

That's just my two cents.

[rongravy]

Man, if this happened, I'd be a ballbat swinging mofo.
As far as Ben, he didn't wanna barracade hisself up in the basement, that's all there is to it. He didn't wanna be anywhere that didn't have another option. I can't blame him for it, but I would've at least checked it out and got it ready for whatever. Then again, I'd opt for the attic. There would be a huge pile of bodies underneath the entrance, to be sure. The only thing I wonder about is how my psyche would handle the initial shock of my reality being turned upside down. After I got over that, I'd be right as rain and a harbinger of doom for anything that shambles...
My worst problem would be stretching out enough to lay the wood to whoever.

[Philly_SWAT]

One thing I'd like to point out Philly is that moving stuff into the basement, like the television and radio would have been a useless gesture back in the 60's. Remember, they wouldn't have gotten ANY reception for either device while holed up in the basement! By fighting for control of the "main house", not only could they keep their eye on the zombies outside, they could also monitor the tv and radio broadcasts. The basement took that away from them.

Information is key! They all needed the radio and/or television to help them make informed decisions (ideally speaking). Heck, they didn't even forulate the plan to go to Willard until they saw news of a rescue station being there on a tv newscast.
I realize that information is key, that is why I capitalized the word in my original post! I am not convinced of the "no reception in the basement" argument. In Night68, we do not see them attempt to use a radio or tv in the basement, so we dont know if it would work or not. So what is the next closet thing we can use to determine this? Well, how about Night90? Towards the end of the movie when Ben is downstairs, he LISTENS TO THE RADIO! And even if it is true that there was no reception, other supplies could still have been brought down there. Like I said, it would be dumb to go down there while the interior of the house has not been breeched, so you could still listen to the tv/radio before you went down.


I had always assumed that was a part of what Ben meant when he called the basement a "deathtrap". Going down there and sealing oneself in was inviting a media blackout and depriving oneself of observing the enemy movement outside your door. You'd have no clue what was happening upstairs and outside. It's not like checking for a fire where you'd feel the door to see if it was warm, if it is then keep it closed. You could listen through the door, hear nothing and open it to a room full of zombies staring at you!

It still makes no sense to use a self-proclaimed 'deathtrap' as a fallback position.



My worst problem would be stretching out enough to lay the wood to whoever.LMFAO!!:lol::D:lol:

[kortick]

i dunno...
i think it was more that u had 2 people who
both seemed to need to prove they knew better.

if they werent fighting over the basement then
it was or would have been something else.

[DubiousComforts]

Although not expressly shown, we have no idea if Ben perhaps tried the cellar door, found it locked and simply moved on. He has obviously sized-up the situation regarding the farmhouse's first floor and upstairs because as he secures the windows and doors, he explains to Barbara the option of boarding themselves in the living room as a last resort. The consideration of the cellar at this point is unimportant, so its not shown. In comparison, it's more important to the story that a gun be located and a good deal of screen time is dedicated to it's discovery, not to mention the inclusion of trophy heads on the wall to demonstrate the likelihood of finding a hunting rifle.

As pointed out in prior discussions regarding NIGHT, the characters' actions and motivations, even the layout of the farmhouse itself, have been structured to support the story and not the other way around. The story dictates that a group of people is to be found hiding in the cellar which leads to an argument over the best course of action in dealing with their situation, and so the film's characters are drawn to suit that purpose, at least as much as is reasonable for their actions to be believable. It's not important who is shown in a positive light so much as the characters be unable to unify in their efforts to survive.

[Philly_SWAT]

Although not expressly shown, we have no idea if Ben perhaps tried the cellar door, found it locked and simply moved on. He has obviously sized-up the situation regarding the farmhouse's first floor and upstairs because as he secures the windows and doors, he explains to Barbara the option of boarding themselves in the living room as a last resort. The consideration of the cellar at this point is unimportant, so its not shown. In comparison, it's more important to the story that a gun be located and a good deal of screen time is dedicated to it's discovery, not to mention the inclusion of trophy heads on the wall to demonstrate the likelihood of finding a hunting rifle.

As pointed out in prior discussions regarding NIGHT, the characters' actions and motivations, even the layout of the farmhouse itself, have been structured to support the story and not the other way around. The story dictates that a group of people is to be found hiding in the cellar which leads to an argument over the best course of action in dealing with their situation, and so the film's characters are drawn to suit that purpose, at least as much as is reasonable for their actions to be believable. It's not important who is shown in a positive light so much as the characters be unable to unify in their efforts to survive.

This is the "right" answer, however, not as fun for discussion when pointed out! :)

[DubiousComforts]

This is the "right" answer, however, not as fun for discussion when pointed out! :)
This is true.

Okay, then perhaps Ben's thought process was that the farmhouse refuge was only temporary and he was planning to split at the first possible opportunity. This would explain why the living room became his base of operations (nearest to the front door and truck). He wouldn't have had much use for the cellar or attic unless he was planning to stay there for several days.

[bd2999]

To be honest I think the best strategy would have been the one that Ben wanted to start with. That is securing the house and using the basement as a fall back position. It is true that you would not have time to move everything down there but at the same time they would not have gotten much signal in the basement for things to start with. Really once you are down there you need food and hope someone comes to find you at some point. You are not going to be getting to much information. I am not familiar with old radios so that might not be true for them.

I think, as many stated, that the problem was these guys just did not get alone. It became a manly contest more than anything else. They both hade some good points honestly, and both were guilty of being to prideful, but to be fully honest Ben did not want to stay in the house when it came down to it. He wanted to get gas, get the truck and get out of there. Which for my money is the way to go, aside from the stupidity of carrying that mission out in the end. Harry, has a point to a degree with his concern for his daughter and how she could not take the noise of things going upstairs. That is fine, but that does not mean they should have boarded the basement door up. Close it but leave it open in the end for fall back. I really think that was the best way to go in the end.

Pride definatly hurt them in the end. And I do not think that Harry was totally right. Just because Ben ended up there in the end I do not think means that, he wanted the whole houses resources at the start. Harry wanted to cut it off, then Ben made it worse by doing the I am boss up here you be boss down there division. The two would never have liked each other but they could have gotten along long enough to get out of the situation. But I think that is the point of the movie. People cannot overlook disagreements to save themselves even if they have the means to do so.

[FoodFight]

Let's see......
Night....farmhouse overrun
Dawn....mall overrun
Day......underground complex overrun
Land.....tower overrun

The trend here is that there is no real security from four walls, dirt, money or faith in government. Only escape (and this is probably illusory as well as we don't really know how things turn out for escapees), can lead to survival.

[deadpunk]

In NOTLD, Ben is shown in an overall positive light IMO. He seems reasonably intelligent, he is definitely a man of action, makes quick decisions, and does not seem to shy away at assuming a leadership role within a group of strangers that just met. At first glance, he appears to be someone that you would want to be holed up with in a zombie crisis.

But I have to wonder…why did he not even consider the basement strategy? Or for that matter, even consider that the idea did have merit, even if he didn’t think of it on his own? Down here in Florida, it is rare that a house has a basement. A lot of the homes up north that I have seen do have basements…so much so that I would think the natural assumption would be to think that a two-story house did have one as opposed to not having one. Yet, Ben never even looks to find a basement…to see how secure the entrance to said basement is…to see what type of tools and boards are in the basement…to see if there are any people in the basement. I realize that he was scared and freaked out (even though he was not letting that affect his actions) and maybe looking for a basement might not have been on his mind at first, but not at all, the whole time he is boarding up the place and looking for supplies? I know the basement door as shown in the movie was covered by a door in the house, however, if Ben had actually looked for the basement, he would have obviously found the door.

He tells Cooper that the cellar would be a good fall back position…huh?!? So to Ben’s way of thinking, the cellar is a “deathtrap”, but it is a good fallback position in case the interior of the house is breeched? Now don’t get me wrong, I understand that if the interior of the house is NOT breeched, there is no need to cower in the basement, if for no other reason that it would be more comfortable and roomy to be in the main house, and you would have access to the plumbing. But if the house IS breeched, there would be no time to move supplies, radio, TV, etc. into the basement. Ben’s whole line of thinking was very flawed. If the cellar is a deathtrap as he says, there is no need to ever go down there. If it is a good fallback position, then it is obvious that supplies need to be moved there BEFORE it becomes necessary to fall back. There would be no harm in moving something down there…it could easily be brought back up if needed.

So, was Ben not as competent as initially shown to be? Was he so arrogant and “anti-Cooper” that he would not acknowledge anything Cooper said because Cooper was acting like such an ass clown? Ben seemed like a survivor…would he purposely ignore information that could increase his chance of survival just because he was in a pissing contest with Cooper? Did he steal tips intended for the waitress at Beekman’s diner? (OK that was thrown in for humor :) ) And on a similar topic, it seems incredibly stupid that the Coopers, Tom and Judy thought going down there and closing the door while they were in no immediately danger, therefore depriving themselves of water and more importantly, INFORMATION. And yes, I know it’s a movie ,but from a logic standpoint…what are your thoughts and/or explanations?

I've given this a lot of thought since Philly posted the subject; and here are my thoughts on the matter (as they are):

Ben makes it very clear from the outset that the farm house is merely going to be a layover for him. He questions Barbara (and then later everyone in the basement) repeatedly concerning a vehicle. He only winds up at the house because his own vehicle runs out of gas. The house just happens to be the nearest safe haven from where this occurs.

He only begins to secure the house when it becomes appearent that a vehicle won't be as easily secured as he had hoped. (And in reality...why didn't the home owners have a vehicle? That far out in the sticks, they surely needed transportation of their own, right? They have their own gas pump...they must have had something!)

The over-looking of the basement is only incidental. Ben's first interest is in getting as much of the house secure as possible before digging in fully. At this point, he isn't determined that he is even going to stay. His concern is making sure that he and (a clearly shell-shocked) Barbara are safe while he tries to figure out his next move.

We have to remember that it is likely that he believed that 'someone in authority' was apt to show at any moment OR that the whole thing was going to blow over as rapidly as it had started.

Once the Cooper crew shows up, Ben still isn't considering a long term seige. He still holds to the position that escape is their best option. (in fact, this is the only thing that Ben & Cooper ever agree on)

The basement would have been easy to overlook, as well. As we've discussed to death, the door is in an odd place. It's highly likely that Ben assumed it was a closet.

Also, while it might make sense to haul everything downstairs... with Cooper making it a constant battle to go up and down, who wants to give that guy control of the stores they'll need if things turn south?

Fall back position is a rather kind way to put things. I think, in Ben's mind, the basement was a final resort. It offered no escape and would make it virtually impossible for them to signal for help, if help ever arrived. Yet, he was enough of a realist to understand that if the house was compromised, the basement might be their only option.

While Ben has a very distinct type-A personality, I think some of the problems he experiences (and the group as a result) is that the role of leadership is virtually thrust upon him. From the outset, he is the only one willing or capable of making decisions (aside from Cooper, whose self-preservation attitude alienates him from the group rather quickly). Ben doesn't really want to be the leader, per se. His only interest is getting away. He is willing to take everyone with him, but I'd be willing to bet that once they had reached a safe haven, he would have cut out on his own again.

:)

[Trin]

It still makes no sense to use a self-proclaimed 'deathtrap' as a fallback position.
I don't think Ben ever seriously considered it a practical or viable option. He listed it as a fallback option to appease Cooper. But I think in his mind it was a fallback position that meant he was kissing his ass goodbye.

I think this is a crack (a very realistic and plausible one) in Ben's character. He was not looking at risks and mitigation beyond his own plans. Another reason this movie is so great.

@dubious - You bring up a wonderfully good point. If the cellar door was locked and Ben couldn't get in he probably would've ignored it, at least for the time being. The whole of "why" it was locked with no obvious locking mechanism on the outside is plausible that he overlooked.

[Trencher]

Ben were disgusted with Harrys percived cowardice and dismissed the idea of going into the basement as panicing and painting yourself into a corner. In short every idea or thought Harry would come up with would be tainted by Harrys cowardice.

[Wyldwraith]

I dunno,
I've ALWAYS had problems with the "Besieged" mentality. Life experience of FAR less deadly nature has time and again reinforced for me that sacrificing either physical or mental (option availability) mobility has always, ALWAYS ended up in a clusterfuck for me whenever violence has been on the table.

That being said, it's such a powerful bias for me that I've always found myself completely unable to relate with the decision-making/thought processes that lead the Night group to choose to try and board up the highly unsecure house, rather than the healthy (minus the Cooper's, who could've hid out in the basement until the rest sent help back once they reached some) simply staying together and jogging away from the farmhouse with blunt weapons in hand.

(Which I suppose is why I prefer Savini's remake. Since Barbara becomes the advocate of that third position during the conflict over what course of action the group should take. Rather than echoing the crowd about the obviously self-destructive internal dissent owing to Ben and Cooper's pissing match, I blame the Savini Barbara for not repeating herself and being more assertive in making her point about the ghouls' lack of mobility, and the humans' capacity to easily evade them.)

Returning to the topic for a moment: I truly believe that Ben was simply winging it from moment to moment once he found himself saddled with two mostly-clueless sheep teenagers and a basket case Barbara. The unwanted responsibility/denial of his opportunity to go with his gut reaction is for me the core of what stirred him up and stressed him out so much that Cooper could get to him badly enough to jeopardize his life over and over because of their pissing match. Had they been able to hop in a vehicle and keep moving (thus going with Ben's gut decision), I think he would have proven far more in control of his feelings/mindset when Cooper started trying to back-seat drive/decide where they were headed.

Other than that, I've NEVER agreed with GAR's thesis in Night. One of the things I've always admired about humanity is their ability to put aside the worst of blood feuds in coming together to double-team an emerging threat from outsiders. Lock the five most rabid Jihadists and five most anti-Muslim Christian extremists in an apartment building and confront them with a 5 atheist death squad that there's no doubt are there to kill Christian and Muslim alike and human nature indicates the religious nutjobs will team up until such time as they're either all dead or the Evil Godless Ones are. Now, assuming the religious whackos emerge victorious they will of course go back to killing each other within seconds of the final heartbeat of the final atheist, but until then they'll be good as blood-brothers.

According to GAR the self-preservation instinct is subordinate to: Ego, Pride, Territoriality, Social Dominance, Anger and Fear. If ANY of those *consistently* overrode the self-preservation instinct for the whole of the species then we would have become extinct shortly after the tribal structure formed. We would have sat in our caves and starved while we argued over who would lead the mammoth hunt.

Am I the only one who thinks this way? Every time I watch Night I can't help but feel how jarring my disagreement with his basic social premise in that film is. What about the rest of you?

[Philly_SWAT]

Wow, deadpunk and Wyldwraith both had well thought out and compelling comments. I will not comment on each point made by both, only a couple.



We have to remember that it is likely that he believed that 'someone in authority' was apt to show at any moment OR that the whole thing was going to blow over as rapidly as it had started.
I agree with most everything you posted deadpunk. One thing that I always found interesting is why Ben (or anyone else for that matter) seemed so convinced that someone was going to show up to help. First of all, they are in the middle of nowhere. Not sure about anyone else, but I tend to think that the 'middle of nowhere' ranks low of the list of authority figures to get help to. I mean, how many people were raped and/or died in NEW ORLEANS after the flooding? And that wasnt even in the middle of nowhere, and it wasnt a problem affecting the entire Eastern seaboard. If I were in that house, I would have immediately thought it was unlikely that any help was coming anytime soon, if at all.


Fall back position is a rather kind way to put things. I think, in Ben's mind, the basement was a final resort. It offered no escape and would make it virtually impossible for them to signal for help, if help ever arrived. Yet, he was enough of a realist to understand that if the house was compromised, the basement might be their only option.

Still not sure why after proclaiming the basement a "deathtrap" that Ben would want it for anything.




According to GAR the self-preservation instinct is subordinate to: Ego, Pride, Territoriality, Social Dominance, Anger and Fear. If ANY of those *consistently* overrode the self-preservation instinct for the whole of the species then we would have become extinct shortly after the tribal structure formed. We would have sat in our caves and starved while we argued over who would lead the mammoth hunt.

Am I the only one who thinks this way? Every time I watch Night I can't help but feel how jarring my disagreement with his basic social premise in that film is. What about the rest of you?
I totally understand what you are saying here. But it could also be argued that in some cases, Anger, Fear, etc. are in fact part of the self-preservation instinct. Example...you are so scared and in fear about being trapped in the dark alley by a group of thugs that without thinking you grab a pipe laying there, crack one in the skull, and the other two freak out and run off. Therefore your fear just saved your life. In Night, those primordial feeling did NOT end up saving their lives, but not everything works the same way all the time. If it did, then I would have had sexual relations with every single woman I have ever found even remotely attractive.

[sandrock74]

Other than that, I've NEVER agreed with GAR's thesis in Night. One of the things I've always admired about humanity is their ability to put aside the worst of blood feuds in coming together to double-team an emerging threat from outsiders. Lock the five most rabid Jihadists and five most anti-Muslim Christian extremists in an apartment building and confront them with a 5 atheist death squad that there's no doubt are there to kill Christian and Muslim alike and human nature indicates the religious nutjobs will team up until such time as they're either all dead or the Evil Godless Ones are. Now, assuming the religious whackos emerge victorious they will of course go back to killing each other within seconds of the final heartbeat of the final atheist, but until then they'll be good as blood-brothers.


I've always disagreed with GAR too about this. I mean, yes, there will be exceptions, of course...but I think, in general, humanity would unite anytime there is an "outsider" as an enemy. Think if Star Trek for a moment. When did earth unite once and for all? It was after first contact was made with the Vulcans and it was shown to humanity that there was, indeed, life in space. We were not alone.

Of course, I tend to be optimistic about these types of things. I know I would be perfectly willing to set aside differences with someone I don't like, if it was "us vs. them", with "them" being a non-human enemy bent on our destruction. I also think that once the initial generation survived a zombie apocalypse (or continues to live thru it) a lot of the old school teachings, like "don't like this kind of person because he is black", or "never trust a muslim" kind of stuff would not be taught to the following generation, because it would be counter-productive to survival.

But, again, call me an optimist...


I agree with most everything you posted deadpunk. One thing that I always found interesting is why Ben (or anyone else for that matter) seemed so convinced that someone was going to show up to help. First of all, they are in the middle of nowhere. Not sure about anyone else, but I tend to think that the 'middle of nowhere' ranks low of the list of authority figures to get help to. I mean, how many people were raped and/or died in NEW ORLEANS after the flooding? And that wasnt even in the middle of nowhere, and it wasnt a problem affecting the entire Eastern seaboard. If I were in that house, I would have immediately thought it was unlikely that any help was coming anytime soon, if at all.


Yes, the events from New Orleans taught us all valuable, real world lessons. No doubt. One important thing to consider though, people in the 1960's hadn't seen what happened with New Orleans! They would still (perhaps foolishly) think the mighty U.S. government would be ready, willing, and able to save them. Nowadays we all know better. But back then?

[Philly_SWAT]

Yes, the events from New Orleans taught us all valuable, real world lessons. No doubt. One important thing to consider though, people in the 1960's hadn't seen what happened with New Orleans! They would still (perhaps foolishly) think the mighty U.S. government would be ready, willing, and able to save them. Nowadays we all know better. But back then?
So, you think that a black man in the US in the 1960's would think that the government was going to be ready, willing, and able to save him?

[sandrock74]

So, you think that a black man in the US in the 1960's would think that the government was going to be ready, willing, and able to save him?

He and his whitey friends maybe? :lol:
I was just speaking in general terms of people in the 1960's, not this crew specifically. I mean, it's only a decade removed from people purchasing bomb shelters to install in their backyard, thinking that would keep them safe from a nuke.

[MoonSylver]

So, you think that a black man in the US in the 1960's would think that the government was going to be ready, willing, and able to save him?

http://images.fearnet.com/fearnetImages/imeWs7CiS5Y7TRaaavB0f9CvnQ==.jpg

"Yo, Harry, I'm real happy for you. Ima let you finish, but let me say this: Lyndon Johnson does not care about black people!"

[Philly_SWAT]

"Yo, Harry, I'm real happy for you. Ima let you finish, but let me say this: Lyndon Johnson does not care about black people!"

Note who the quote is from! :)

[Trin]

According to GAR the self-preservation instinct is subordinate to: Ego, Pride, Territoriality, Social Dominance, Anger and Fear. If ANY of those *consistently* overrode the self-preservation instinct for the whole of the species then we would have become extinct shortly after the tribal structure formed. We would have sat in our caves and starved while we argued over who would lead the mammoth hunt.

Am I the only one who thinks this way? Every time I watch Night I can't help but feel how jarring my disagreement with his basic social premise in that film is. What about the rest of you?
I get what you're saying, but it wasn't any of those things that put their lives at risk.

The instinct for Social Dominance is part of self-preservation. The group needed a clear and authoritative leader to get them working together and keep them pulling in one direction. It really didn't take that long for them to fight it out and for Ben to come out on top. That arguing never put their lives at risk. After that they worked together reasonably well towards their goal of getting the truck gassed up. No one compromised that goal through ego or territoriality. And if the zombies had attacked during the arguing they would've put the argument aside long enough to protect their lives.

Some conflict is good. If everyone meekly went along with the first idea proposed it would've been worse. If they'd decided to just all do their own thing it would've been worse. The arguing got Ben to rethink a couple of points. It got Tom involved. It got Cooper to at least relent and go along with the plan. Yes, tensions were high. But it never got to the point that everyone just dug their heels in and refused to work together.

What compromised their lives was the execution of the plan. In the heat of the moment they made mistakes.

What would we be saying if they'd gotten the truck gassed up and everyone got out of the house safely? In that case we'd be applauding them for overcoming their personal differences to work together.

[MoonSylver]

Note who the quote is from! :)

BWAAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[BillyRay]

What would we be saying if they'd gotten the truck gassed up and everyone got out of the house safely?

"Wow...what a disappointing horror movie."

-OR-

"George who?"

[Wyldwraith]

Whoa,
They all worked together after the initial argument? How about AFTER the errors in execution of gassing up the truck you mention?

As I recall there was a violent struggle between those inside and Cooper over opening the door to let Ben back in after the disastrous gas-up attempt. How was that NOT internal dissent?

Cooper relenting and going along with the plan? You mean when we browbeat his wife into stopping help the others board up the ground floor and sent her scurrying back downstairs with her tail between her tail? (Yes, meant to write it that way)

Or how about Cooper's lame-ass justification for not coming up and helping, and convincing Tom and Judy not to either when Ben had his hands full right after arriving with clearing the pair of zombies out of the house/defending Barbara? Ben's point about that blew Cooper's excuse out of the water, especially after the teenagers admitted they could hear Ben and Barbara's voices down there. "We thought you were more of those things." Says Cooper, bullshit!

Plus I would make the case that just because most of the actual verbal conflicts took place during lulls between zombie attacks that doesn't mean the wasted time didn't cost them dearly. More minutes spent working would've meant a longer interval (or them getting in at all) before the zombies breached their improv'd fortifications.

BTW, I had serious problems with the fact that zombies who were clearly and unarguably portrayed as being significantly weaker than the living were able to dislodge hardwood doors and cabinets nailed into INCHES of solid wood.

Try this sometime. Take a 2x4 and some nails of sufficient length to go all the way through and still have 2-3 inches of length left, then nail it to something solid at each end. Then push all your weight against it for as long as you like. I guarantee the 2x4 won't end up dislodged from what you nailed it to.

I would be willing to bet that two very strong men couldn't push, pull, kick or otherwise knock apart (2) 2x4s nailed solidly together without using a tool or lever of some sort.

If a pair of healthy strong guys can't manage it, then how can the "weaker" zombies manage it not once, but through EVERYTHING nailed over the windows and doors?

Personally I tried nailing a piece of scrap oak a about four feet long, 4-5 inches thick and 3-4 inches wide into the frame of a door at an abandoned never-finished house out in my neighborhood when I was sixteen and was first curious about this issue. When I used nails that were only thick enough to go through the wood and then maybe 3/4ths to 1 inch deep into the doorframe I had no trouble. A few hard kicks and the paneling of the frame gave way. But when I used nails of a similar length to those in the movie, they were long enough to be driven through the surface frame and into the more solid frame of the actual doorway. My feet were hurting like a bitch after 20-25 kicks, and that wood didn't budge. I put forward that if I can't kick it loose with all the time in the world to line up each shot and find the most advantageous angle, then you could pile 7-8 bodies up against it that were simply pushing against each other in their push forward and it either wouldn't budge, or the nails would slowly get worked back out.

Whatcha think?

[sandrock74]

Cooper relenting and going along with the plan? You mean when we browbeat his wife into stopping help the others board up the ground floor and sent her scurrying back downstairs with her tail between her tail? (Yes, meant to write it that way)

If a pair of healthy strong guys can't manage it, then how can the "weaker" zombies manage it not once, but through EVERYTHING nailed over the windows and doors?



First, I want to state that I never, ever, browbeat Helen Cooper into anything. I just want to clear that up.

Second, I agree with you on the zombies breaking thru the fortified doors and windows. Obviously, they MUST break into the house for dramatic purposes...otherwise, it wouldn't have been as interesting of an ending. In reality, zombies wouldn't have made their way thru...at least, not without making a hell of a racket and over time, so the people inside could have been fixing any damage.

This is an annoying part of zombie movies and fiction to me. There was one story I read, which took place in the arctic. It was an enjoyable story, but at the end, the zombies tore down a solid steel door. WTF?? That completely took me out of the story.

[Trencher]

While I agree on the point that superstrong steeldoor breaching zombies takes me out off the story I would like to point out that the fortifications that Ben had set up were not very good and that the zombies in night where not that weak. Sure they were a bit weaker and slower than a living human but not so much that you can just walk right by them like Barbera did in the remake. Four zombies could rip out a plank just by holding on to it and applying body weight alone.

---------- Post added at 07:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 AM ----------

By the way: I love the internet.

[Wyldwraith]

I disagree,
While I believe the zombies could have gotten through the more half-assed items used in the fortifications, I simply couldn't buy them knocking in the hardwood doors or the doubled-up hardwood cabinets. Especially not after Ben specifically rejected certain pieces of wood while talking to Tom, and punctuating his point about "the new stuff" being no good by punching right through the upper panel of of a pine door.

What was the point of demonstrating clearly that Ben was assessing the quality of the materials he had available to fortify with and rejecting those he considered too weak if the zombies were going to breach EVERYTHING SIMULTANEOUSLY.

I mean seriously, the zombies ploughed through every opening at the end like they were pushing through wet cardboard. Each time I get to that point in the movie I'm struck anew by the impression that for even healthy human beings (let alone instinct-driven undead) to breach every boarded-over window and door at the same time that means there was no way those fortifications could've held them at bay for half a day.

Just another one of the reasons I prefer Savini's remake.

So, whatcha think?

[Philly_SWAT]

Especially not after Ben specifically rejected certain pieces of wood while talking to Tom, and punctuating his point about "the new stuff" being no good by punching right through the upper panel of of a pine door.

Just another one of the reasons I prefer Savini's remake.

So, whatcha think?

I think Ben punching thru the "new stuff" was in the Savini remake.

[AnxietyDilemma]

The remake made it look pretty simple to just simply walk by them, but it didn't seem so easy in the original, which stressed the danger of the zombies grouping up in bunches. It didn't look so easy for Ben to make his way back to the house after the truck exploded.

I don't know about anybody else, but I wouldn't want to go wondering through the vast country side that I'm unfamiliar with in the middle of the night, where visibility would be poor, especially when groups of the dead are on the prowl.

That's why I never enjoyed the "They're so slow" angle of the remake.

[DubiousComforts]

BTW, I had serious problems with the fact that zombies who were clearly and unarguably portrayed as being significantly weaker than the living were able to dislodge hardwood doors and cabinets nailed into INCHES of solid wood.

I would be willing to bet that two very strong men couldn't push, pull, kick or otherwise knock apart (2) 2x4s nailed solidly together without using a tool or lever of some sort.
Ben and Tom are shown pulling boards from the front door with their bare hands and a little help from a hammer in preparation for the truck escape.

Also, we only ever see the ghouls break through a single door (the front door) and a single window (to the left of the front door). The front door itself came apart due to the being pounded with a table leg and the force of the ghouls. Its only fortification was a heavy closet door hastily nailed across which buckled under the weight of both the ghouls and gravity.

In comparison, the window to the right of the front door (with the dining room table nailed across it) remained intact the next morning, which demonstrates that Ben simply became lax in fortifying the barricades as the night progressed and people began dying.


The remake made it look pretty simple to just simply walk by them, but it didn't seem so easy in the original, which stressed the danger of the zombies grouping up in bunches. It didn't look so easy for Ben to make his way back to the house after the truck exploded.
Excellent point. I've always felt that the original did a great job of establishing a realistic threat in order to trap the characters within the farmhouse.

The remake, by comparison, has long stretches where we're shown no ghouls outside the house, and yet the characters have already decided to barricade themselves inside rather than make a run for it.

[Wyldwraith]

I dunno,
Maybe it's just the bias in my personal mentality. Even in the original I view their prospects as "Hairy while trying to evade the large pack in the immediate area of the house, but home free if you don't get dragged down in the first twenty-five feet from the door"

As for Ben just negligently pulling those boards away, notice my statement about needing to use nails long enough to be driven relatively deep into the frame beneath the weak paneling. For the long boards it looked like Ben was using shorter nails, and using the longer one for stuff like the tables and cabinets. If there's only a half inch of nail in the middle of the paneling a determined 9-year-old could wiggle it free, but get 2-3 inches into that door frame and you'll have better luck just breaking the wood than getting it loose.

As for establishing a threat, I feel the incredibly long delay while the group dithered and bickered was responsible for this. It was full dark before the zombie count around the entire house exceeded 10-11. Meaning anytime before then all they'd have needed to do was dart pass 1-2, MAYBE 3 ghouls over a reasonably scattered area, then watch out for any ghouls headed into the area. My bet? By the time they'd covered 3/4ths of a mile if they saw any zombies it'd be one here, one there.

Romero kept em in the house to make his plot work the way he wanted, not because it was the most realistic maneuver. I cite the previous poster about the common sense thought not to expect the prompt arrival of help at an extremely remote farm house. Since the few hours of experience with the zombies they did have had told them that the ghouls' numbers were slowly but steadily rising as the hours ticked by, it SHOULD have been common sense to realize that long before help arrives the number of zombies will have reached the required amount of moving biomass to breach their hasty fortifications.

Is it *reasonably* to *assume* that EVERYONE in the house, had they thought of the situation in that manner all would have chosen to stay?

Look at other monster movies for example. In any random group there's always a couple that want to run away no matter what. The majority has to talk/browbeat them into not going for it. The uniformity of opinion in Night is a tad strange to me, that's all.

[SRP76]

I think Ben punching thru the "new stuff" was in the Savini remake.

It was. I just watched it all the way through for the first time (finally). It sucked.

But anyway:

The zombies don't have to "break through" anything. That's the whole problem with their boarding-up technique: it must be done from outside, not inside. When done from inside, the zombies are simply leaning against the holding force of the nails. Push the nails free, the "fortifications" fall impotently to the floor. Doesn't take much; the boards themselves are natural levers.

[Wyldwraith]

Not necessarily,
While I agree boarding from the outside is innately stronger, if you were careful to drive the nail DIAGONALLY through the wood you'd take at least a % of that natural lever-action away. In that case you'd be using force to break apart the wood around the nail, because there's no way the nail is gonna BREAK from leaning on it. If the nails don't have a straight-line path to work back out of the wood, they can't give way until the wood they're in gives way. Which by the way, if you have sufficient bodies to push in order to accomplish, no amount of boarding up was going to be sufficient.

Good point though. Hadn't considered that.

[AnxietyDilemma]

As for establishing a threat, I feel the incredibly long delay while the group dithered and bickered was responsible for this. It was full dark before the zombie count around the entire house exceeded 10-11. Meaning anytime before then all they'd have needed to do was dart pass 1-2, MAYBE 3 ghouls over a reasonably scattered area, then watch out for any ghouls headed into the area. My bet? By the time they'd covered 3/4ths of a mile if they saw any zombies it'd be one here, one there.



I just don't see where they could expect to go on foot, being in the middle of nowhere at night time and all. Ben only ended up at the house because the truck was running out of gas and he spotted the gas pump at the house. Obviously, he had other plans than to just board himself up in a house, but his attention did get diverted between a catatonic woman and an antagonist who emerged from the cellar. Leaving in the truck was a good idea which obviously went terribly wrong. They should've tried it sooner obviously before things got out of hand, but as you said, George kept them in the house for the sake of internal conflict. I just don't see how fleeing on foot in the middle of nowhere would be a good idea though. To me, it'd be like getting shipwrecked in the middle of the ocean and deciding to swim for shore, rather than waiting/hoping for help. You'll die of exhaustion, dehydration, or drowning long before you could ever hope to reach the shore.

[Trin]

I think a lot of the arguments lose focus on the fact that these people were mere hours into the crisis, knew nothing about zombie behavior, and knew only a little of the situation they were in.

They didn't know zombies were relentless, tireless pursuers. For all they knew the zombies would get hungry and go away. Or get tired and fall asleep. Or just collapse after a couple hours because their bodies were only able to endure a short time under this weird condition. Or just wander off because they were so stupid that once they lose sight of humans they'd forget about them.

And also look at their decision making in terms of what they knew at the point in time and how much time they had to decide things. When Ben decided to fortify the house it was with only a few zombies outside and a near catatonic woman on his hands. The truck had no gas and he wasn't about to carry her.

Later, when they decided to leave the house, it was only after more and more zombies showed up. That's something they couldn't have predicted. Even in retrospect we wonder where they all came from. If it had remained only a few zombies their strategy would've been different. Maybe Cooper, Ben, and Tom simply go burn or bludgeon them all and the house is safe. Maybe they just stay put. We know Ben's mindset on the house changed when he says, "Enough of those things will get in."

The whole idea of staying mobile is flawed. Do they take the truck? How far does it go before a flat tire or run out of gas? We know that the diner is overrun. Can they expect to find a gas station still operating and safe? Or would they find other people ready and willing to steal their truck? They were neither well armed nor well manned.

Assuming they end up on foot at some point. How far can Barbra reasonably walk/run? Or Cooper for that matter? A couple miles? And are Cooper, Ben, and Tom taking turns carrying the little girl? Do they carry food and water or hope to find it along the way? What about bathroom breaks?

I tend to agree that the zombies get into the house at some point regardless of how well nailed the boards are. You or I might push on that board a couple times and think it's pretty solid. A zombie will push on it for 6 hours and slowly work it until it's loose.

[Wyldwraith]

See that's just IT though!
Zombies are relentless, but in a STUPID WAY. If you look how the zombies in Night were scrabbling at windows and doors up until the VERY end, it was the exact same pattern repeated over and over.

Step 1: Zombies shambles/staggers forward until encountering obstruction between him and food. (In this case windows and doors). Zombie's forward momentum stalls.

Step 2: Zombie flails and flops his limbs along/across the windows doors. Stay at them, but DOES NOT continue applying pressure to the same spot/spots, because he/she/it keeps doing stuff like flopping forward against the window and then falling down and needing to get back up.

Step 3: Zombie repeats Steps 1-2.

Then, as if on some magical Big Daddy March-like cue, a huge wave of undead suddenly shifted tactics and doggedly rush forward and continue *consistently* pushing against the same spots until something gives and they pour into the house.

I've watched both versions countless times, and it NEVER felt/appeared or gave any sort of sensory-clue that the near-entirety of their improvised fortifications were preparing to give way en masse. At the end of the movie the zombies completely switched tactics from Individuals who happen to be gathered together, to a united mass that whether unintentional or not, suddenly begins working collectively and relentlessly towards a common goal.

I DO see your point about the tendency of many people to stick and hole up during trouble, ESPECIALLY after dark. Yet even their very brief experience with zombies had been enough to illustrate that a) No zombie that's shown up has left, and b) More zombies keep showing up regularly.

Now, you're telling me that faced with those two observations, the absolutely most reasonable course of action is to stake your life on the notion that this MAY be a short-term thing, or that help MAY arrive in time?

I just can't see it. You're also assuming the group would have been united in fleeing, which nothing in the movie leads us to believe would have been the case. Had Ben gotten Barbara and the teens to go for it, most likely Cooper would've had a hissy-fit and locked himself and his family in the cellar. Certain in his belief that he MUST BE RIGHT, and that walling yourself in down there is the best way to go.

Had the group split like that, it's more than possible that the area's zombies would have been divided between those headed for the now-breached house to pound on the cellar door, and those doggedly staggering after the humans running away.

Just my .02 though.

[Trin]

As for the zombies being able to get in (and subsequently getting in) I want to look at it from two perspectives.

First, what the characters knew. Ben thought they could get in if there were enough of them. I believe that makes sense from their perspective. Remember what they knew about zombies. Barbra saw one break a car window with a rock. Ben saw them turn over a car as a group. Both those behaviors are smarter than flopping against a board over and over. From their perspective what’s to say the zombies won’t find a prybar and start unhinging boards? Or set fire to the house and drive them out?

Second, what we know from the other movies. In Day Sarah doesn’t want them visible to the zombies during the day because it gets them riled up. She’s afraid that they’ll get through the fence if they’re incited enough. Consider that the zombies didn’t breach the house until after the attempt to get the truck. Look at the zombies after the truck explosion and the retreat of Ben back into the house. They’re riled up. They’ve had a taste of human. The group of them is excitable. I don’t see it as unrealistic for them to break through at that point. It’s possible that the truck attempt riled up the zombies enough to breach the house and they wouldn’t have if the group had just stayed put.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with the rest of your post. My main point is that the group responded to the situation at hand. When there were fewer zombies they chose to defend the house. More zombies and they chose to get in the truck and move on. I think their judgment was sound in both cases even if the decisions weren’t the best in retrospect.

It seems to me that the group chose to stay in the house until the zombie numbers grew to the point that Ben was concerned that “enough of them will get in.” After that the whole group worked towards getting the truck. Yes, Cooper was still of the opinion that staying put was best. But he did help them with the plan.

I also think we need to reflect on human behavior. How many people have watched a stock price fall and fall and fall while not selling their stock? In retrospect it’s insane. Why didn’t they sell at the first sign of trouble? Yet it happens all the time. Why? Because the basic human mindset is “The worst is probably over.” The lower the price gets the worse your position is if you sell. So you think, "I can ride this out just a little longer."

I can see the Night crew thought process being the same with the zombies as more and more show up. More zombies outside means a riskier venture to leave. So they stay put. And more show up. Which makes the need to leave stronger, but it’s also even riskier. They kick themselves for not leaving earlier even as they continue to not leave. And all the while they never realize that it's going to get worse and worse and worse.

[Philly_SWAT]

First, what the characters knew. Ben thought they could get in if there were enough of them. I believe that makes sense from their perspective. Remember what they knew about zombies. Barbra saw one break a car window with a rock. Ben saw them turn over a car as a group. Both those behaviors are smarter than flopping against a board over and over. From their perspective what’s to say the zombies won’t find a prybar and start unhinging boards? Or set fire to the house and drive them out?This is an excellent point!

Second, what we know from the other movies. In Day Sarah doesn’t want them visible to the zombies during the day because it gets them riled up. She’s afraid that they’ll get through the fence if they’re incited enough. Consider that the zombies didn’t breach the house until after the attempt to get the truck. Look at the zombies after the truck explosion and the retreat of Ben back into the house. They’re riled up. They’ve had a taste of human. The group of them is excitable. I don’t see it as unrealistic for them to break through at that point. It’s possible that the truck attempt riled up the zombies enough to breach the house and they wouldn’t have if the group had just stayed put.
This is ALSO an excellent point!

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with the rest of your post. My main point is that the group responded to the situation at hand. When there were fewer zombies they chose to defend the house. More zombies and they chose to get in the truck and move on. I think their judgment was sound in both cases even if the decisions weren’t the best in retrospect.Whether or not their judgment was sound or not is debatable, however, you state your opinion very well!

I also think we need to reflect on human behavior. How many people have watched a stock price fall and fall and fall while not selling their stock? In retrospect it’s insane. Why didn’t they sell at the first sign of trouble? Yet it happens all the time. Why? Because the basic human mindset is “The worst is probably over.” The lower the price gets the worse your position is if you sell. So you think, "I can ride this out just a little longer."Absolutely astute assessment of human behavior.

I can see the Night crew thought process being the same with the zombies as more and more show up. More zombies outside means a riskier venture to leave. So they stay put. And more show up. Which makes the need to leave stronger, but it’s also even riskier. They kick themselves for not leaving earlier even as they continue to not leave. And all the while they never realize that it's going to get worse and worse and worse.
In case in wasnt clear up til now, I think this whole post was excellent!