NOTLD Gun Error?

[Philly_SWAT]

When Vince shoots Ben dead at the end of the movie, it appears that he is using a Ithaca 37 Shotgun

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/c/c2/Notld18.JPG/600px-Notld18.JPG

which if so, there is no way he left one hole in the middle of Ben's head like that. In fact, a shot from outside like that may have barely hit Ben with any pellets, if hit him at all. Thoughts?

[deadpunk]

unless he was using a slug...

http://www.ithacagun.com/

[Skippy911sc]

unless he was using a slug...

http://www.ithacagun.com/

Beat me to it.

[Trin]

Guns shoot little metal rocks called bullets long distances. The longer the gun, the longer the distance. When a bullet hits something it often makes a hole. If that something is a person's head it can be fatal.

The man who shot at the house Ben was in used a gun that was fairly long, thus it could shoot a fairly long distance. The hole that appeared in Ben's head was completely consistent with that of a bullet.

I think it's interesting that with my rudimentary understanding of guns the whole thing is very plausible.

[DubiousComforts]

Philly may have found a bona fide continuity error. We discussed this in the chat room, and strayrider seems to believe that a slug fired from that gun would have taken Ben's head off. I'll defer to his knowledge of firearms over my own, the extent of which is limited to "big gun" (rifle), "small gun" (pistol).

I think the real problem here is that Karl Hardman only knew how to create one type of bullet wound when doing the make-up effects.

[krakenslayer]

I think the real problem here is that Karl Hardman only knew how to create one type of bullet wound when doing the make-up effects.

Also an exploding head effect would have (ironically) cut back on the emotional impact of seeing Ben fall back, motionless, with a tiny hole in his forehead.

[capncnut]

<peowww>

[DubiousComforts]

Also an exploding head effect would have (ironically) cut back on the emotional impact of seeing Ben fall back, motionless, with a tiny hole in his forehead.
Agreed. The ending also wouldn't have worked if the posse was simply carrying a headless body to the bonfire.

Btw, they did film an exploding head for NIGHT, probably for the ghoul at the window, but it wasn't used. There exists a photo of Regis Survinski crouching next to a mannequin with the head completely blown away.

[krakenslayer]

Btw, they did film an exploding head for NIGHT, probably for the ghoul at the window, but it wasn't used. There exists a photo of Regis Survinski crouching next to a mannequin with the head completely blown away.

Fascinating! I had no idea! I'm not sure if the general public would have been ready for it in 1968 though - think of the reaction the exploding head in Dawn got ten years later, people reportedly ran out of the theatre (although that was a living human and not a zombie, so the impact on the audience would of course be different).

[Philly_SWAT]

Guns shoot little metal rocks called bullets long distances. The longer the gun, the longer the distance. When a bullet hits something it often makes a hole. If that something is a person's head it can be fatal.

The man who shot at the house Ben was in used a gun that was fairly long, thus it could shoot a fairly long distance. The hole that appeared in Ben's head was completely consistent with that of a bullet.

I think it's interesting that with my rudimentary understanding of guns the whole thing is very plausible.

Your sarcasm here is quite entertaining! For informational purposes, there are RIFLES and SHOTGUNS. Rifles shoot "bullets", single rounds of ammunition, which generally propel lead balls of varying sizes at varying speeds over varying distances creating varying size holes (all the varying dependent on what type of gun, what type of ammo, etc.) Shotguns are loaded with "shells" which usually contain some type of buckshot...think if a bunch of little bitty pieces of metal like a BB gun. Where a rifle is designed to shoot one round with a high degree of accuracy when aimed properly, a shotgun is designed to not even really be aimed, but just to point in a general direction, and spray the target with a bunch of "little bullets". Firing a shotgun from that distance, from the outside to the inside...I dont think many of the pellets inside the shell would have made it thru the window.

As for that shotgun also being capable of firing slugs, I am unaware of that capability, then again, I am not an expert on shotguns.

[DubiousComforts]

Fascinating! I had no idea! I'm not sure if the general public would have been ready for it in 1968 though - think of the reaction the exploding head in Dawn got ten years later, people reportedly ran out of the theatre (although that was a living human and not a zombie, so the impact on the audience would of course be different).
Survinski claims that it was removed because the UK wouldn't allow it. but I think probably the effect didn't register on film the way that they'd wanted. It makes no sense that the exploding head wouldn't have been left in when you consider that the UK had cut out the rest of the violence anyhow.

NIGHT's distributors have often been blamed for changes made to the film before it saw release, but other than the awful jump cut when the Coopers are arguing in the basement, I think the film was left as originally edited by Romero.

[krakenslayer]

Survinski claims that it was removed because the UK wouldn't allow it. but I think probably the effect didn't register on film the way that they'd wanted. It makes no sense that the exploding head wouldn't have been left in when you consider that the UK had cut out the rest of the violence anyhow.

NIGHT's distributors have often been blamed for changes made to the film before it saw release, but other than the awful jump cut when the Coopers are arguing in the basement, I think the film was left as originally edited by Romero.

It was fairly trimmed down for UK release - the current Contender DVD was accidentally culled from a censored British 1960s print. Although it's annoying if you're expecting the full uncut movie, it is somewhat interesting because it's a chance to see an extremely rare cut of the movie that hasn't been exhibited or distributed anywhere else since the early '70s. In it, Karen kills her mom with just two-to-three stabs (as opposed to about ten or whatever) and the feasting scene goes on for about half as long as in the real version. There are supposedly a few other minor trims and substitutions, also.

Cutting the headshot out from the get-go seems wrong, because obviously the censors are happy to cut out anything they see as offensive anyway, so there's no sense in trying to second guess them and do their job for 'em.

[rongravy]

As for that shotgun also being capable of firing slugs, I am unaware of that capability, then again, I am not an expert on shotguns.
When we go deer hunting, since I don't have one of my own, my dad uses a rifle and I use one of his shotguns with slugs in it. If it was a shotgun slug, it wouldn't leave a pretty little hole in his head in the front.
And I always thought a rifle would leave a nice hole in the front, but blast a pretty good chunk on the way out the other side.
Maybe if it hit a little more off to the side it might take out more of a side chunk. And rifle bullets aren't balls.
They are made to slice right through you.

[Skippy911sc]

Having shot a deer in the head with a slug I can tell you it is not as clean as in the movie, but it does not take the whole hear off. The eyes do occasionally pop out, but the head stays mostly intact.

[Trin]

Your sarcasm here is quite entertaining! For informational purposes, there are RIFLES and SHOTGUNS. Rifles shoot "bullets", single rounds of ammunition, which generally propel lead balls of varying sizes at varying speeds over varying distances creating varying size holes (all the varying dependent on what type of gun, what type of ammo, etc.) Shotguns are loaded with "shells" which usually contain some type of buckshot...think if a bunch of little bitty pieces of metal like a BB gun. Where a rifle is designed to shoot one round with a high degree of accuracy when aimed properly, a shotgun is designed to not even really be aimed, but just to point in a general direction, and spray the target with a bunch of "little bullets". Firing a shotgun from that distance, from the outside to the inside...I dont think many of the pellets inside the shell would have made it thru the window.
I refuse to learn anything that would impair my ability to enjoy Night.

La la la la la la la la la la - I can't hear you....

[C5NOTLD]

When Vince shoots Ben dead at the end of the movie, it appears that he is using a Ithaca 37 Shotgun



Yes - It's a 1946 Ithaca 12 gauge featherlight Pump action shotgun designed for close range combat.

For the record while we are on NOTLD guns - the Duane Jones rifle is a Winchester Model 94 lever action .32 Winchester special, saddle carbine.

The Ithaca would have been modified by handy man Vince Survinski as soon as the reports of the dead rising started so his gun would have a greater range. :lol:




.

[deadpunk]

As for that shotgun also being capable of firing slugs, I am unaware of that capability, then again, I am not an expert on shotguns.

Hece the link I posted in my initial reply. Not all shotguns can fire slugs, however the ithaca can be modified to allow it to do so.

A slug is not as violent as it might seem. While it would certainly generate more damage than seen in the movie, it would not vaporize the head. (Unless it were fired at extremely close range) And, most importantly, it is not the entry wound that would be devestating to view, rather the exit...

[strayrider]

We discussed this in the chat room, and strayrider seems to believe that a slug fired from that gun would have taken Ben's head off. I'll defer to his knowledge of firearms over my own, the extent of which is limited to "big gun" (rifle), "small gun" (pistol).

I believe that it was Philly who said it would've taken Ben's head off, I simply stated that it would've decimated his head--possibly taking the top of it clean off.


I think the real problem here is that Karl Hardman only knew how to create one type of bullet wound when doing the make-up effects.

Most likely. Of course, he never imagined that some forty years later a bunch of geeks would be nit-picking his work

:D

-stray-

[deadpunk]

Most likely. Of course, he never imagined that some forty years later a bunch of geeks would be nit-picking his work


http://i317.photobucket.com/albums/mm366/friendandfriends/tronguy.jpg

Who you callin' a geek?!?!

:lol:

[strayrider]

Who you callin' a geek?!?!

:lol:

Nooo! I'd never call, or even suggest, that YOU were a zombie geek, Dead. Never in a eleventy million years would I suggest such a thing ...

Seriously.

:D

-stray-

[Shadowofthedead]

philly swat what kills me is that its 2010 and the shotgun has been around for over 100 years and you are into zombie movies and you did not know that they shoot rifled slugs... or you arent familiar with them at all... as a gun nut this is basic knowledge for the average person who is not nutty about guns... i am shcked and quite frankly dumb founded...:stunned:

---------- Post added at 08:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

there is no modifying that shotty i can shoot rifled slugs out of a normal none rifled shot or field barrel and if i know where the slug goes can pull off a shot accurately at less than fifty yards... this was special effects gone wrong or he could have missed hit something else and a piece of the slug went into bens head... but oh well lets not debate on that due to flaming and what not

[FoodFight]

Why assume that it was a rifled slug? A round ball (punkin ball) would be much more likely given the time period and blue-collar origin of the posse.

[Wyldwraith]

Ahem,
A quick check of the Wikipedia informed me that the vast majority of still-functioning Ithaca 37s are of the variety created for use by the *police*. It would be almost unthinkable for law enforcement to purchase a weapon to fill the "riot gun" role that could not fire a bean-bag round (Essentially a non-lethal slug).

It can also be argued that the weapon in the hands of the actor in the picture is not in fact an Ithaca, but instead is a Chinese-made imitation of the Ithaca, which are both patterned after the Remington Model 17.

Wikipedia, a wonderful thing.

BTW, I too have shot a small buck in the head (while it was in profile to me) with a 12-gauge slug. Admittedly I was at very close range. Perhaps 25-30 yards. The slug hit just above the eye, and while it didn't blast the head totally apart. It DID render the top 50% of the head utterly unrecognizable but for an antler stump hanging from a strip of skull attached to gristly derma and skin.

I admit it, I wanted to see what would happen was my primary motivator for shooting the buck in the head. However, in my defense we made deer jerkey and venison steaks out of half the meat, and my cousin took the rest for his family. (Do NOT believe in hunting for hunting's sake. Anything you don't want to eat you've got no business shooting)

Except for feral pigs. Everyone should shoot feral pigs to help defuse the Pig Bomb Effect.

[FoodFight]

Wiki? Seriously? :rolleyes: The shotgun in question couldn't have been a Chinese copy, as they didn't produce them back in the '60s. Importation of Chinese copies of older designs like this, as well as Win '87's and '97's is a fairly recent phenomenon.

[C5NOTLD]

It can also be argued that the weapon in the hands of the actor in the picture is not in fact an Ithaca, but instead is a Chinese-made imitation of the Ithaca, which are both patterned after the Remington Model 17.


You can argue it if you want to but the true fact is that the weapon in the hands of the actor, Vince Survinski, was an Ithaca owned by George Kosana who played the Sheriff in the film. The actual Ithaca used makes an appearance, along with Ben's rifle, in the Archive Of The Dead section on the Autopsy Of The Dead DVD.







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