day question

[fartpants]

just watched day again and a thought struck me, we were told that Major Cooper died but not how, now i was thinking that just maybe Dr Logan was quietly killing the soldiers one by one to keep up a supply of fresh meat to reward his " students ", as there were a few graves in sight on the base and im sure Logan would have been able to arrange it, wat are your thoughts people....

[bassman]

Maybe i'm just not understanding your question here, but it's laid out straight in the film that Logan was feeding the soldiers to Bub and the other zombies.

[fartpants]

sorry let me clarify, we know that Logan was feeding the dead soldiers to his zeds, so its possible that Logan actually secretly killed these soldiers in the first place so he would have rewards for his "pets"

[axlish]

sorry let me clarify, we know that Logan was feeding the dead soldiers to his zeds, so its possible that Logan actually secretly killed these soldiers in the first place so he would have rewards for his "pets"

It is quite possible. I suppose in the event that someone fell ill in the group, they'd see Dr. Logan for medical attention. On the other hand there is no evidence to support him giving treats to any zombies before Bub.

[JDFP]

sorry let me clarify, we know that Logan was feeding the dead soldiers to his zeds, so its possible that Logan actually secretly killed these soldiers in the first place so he would have rewards for his "pets"

Ehhh... I don't think so. Is it possible? Sure. We don't know. Logan was a nutso, but there's a difference between being crazy with daddy-issues as opposed to actively and maliciously attempting to kill people off to feed your pets. I think that Logan was the former, not the latter. In his own crazy way, Logan thought that what he was doing was helping to * save * humanity, not continue to the demise of additional people, even if they weren't beneficial to the research ("[Major Cooper] is helping us much more now than he ever did when alive.")

I always imagined the soldiers that died having died from being bitten in the corral while trying to obtain "specimens". Either that or natural causes or possibly offing themselves after realizing they were never going back to a normal life again. I just don't see Logan offing anyone living. I think he took advantage of the situation with the fresh corpses and said: "Hey, I can take these fresh bodies and feed the specimens with it! Eureka!", but as far as contributing to their demise for that very purpose, eh... no. I just don't see it.

j.p.

[capncnut]

I dunno, the way I see it Major Cooper was suffering from a long-time ailment or illness and died. Obviously, a bullet would've been dished out upon his reawakening, but I don't think anything really sinister is going on with Logan, other than the fact he's feeding Bub fresh corpses, and giving specimens for burial.

Cooper would've been surrounded by his men in the days/weeks leading up to his death. We presume Logan must have been present to check up on him every now and again, but I highly doubt he would be brave enough to try and murder an army Major in his barracks, with soldiers all around.

What he did with the their bodies was probably a worthy gamble to him, after all they were dead.

[Danny]

i always figured rhodes did it, him being all crazy an' all.

[capncnut]

i always figured rhodes did it, him being all crazy an' all.
You know, I was going to say that. As the second in command, he would've been with the major at all times, and it's totally believable that he might've put him out of his misery to be the boss.

[Mike70]

Obviously, a bullet would've been dished out upon his reawakening,

that seems logical but wasn't major cooper one of the specimens logan was experimenting on? that raises the obvious question as to whether he was, in fact, shot in the head when he died. he would've been useless for research if he had been blasted in the head.

it is probable that cooper, whatever was wrong with him, was in dr. logan's care. when he died, logan simply lied about disposing of him, zipped up a specimen in a body bag and gave that to the soldiers to be buried.

i think the natural causes idea is much more likely than a bite. if he had been bitten, he most likely would've killed himself or been shot on the spot by one of the other soldiers. hell, he might have even asked someone to shot him like the soldier who is bitten in the neck during the corral scene.

so let's say cooper has a heart attack. dr. logan attempts to treat him but he dies. logan then stores his body away under lock and key, gives the soldiers a zombie to bury. none of the soldiers seem like the sentimental type and none of them seem too keen to be near dead folks.

[krakenslayer]

that seems logical but wasn't major cooper one of the specimens logan was experimenting on? that raises the obvious question as to whether he was, in fact, shot in the head when he died. he would've been useless for research if he had been blasted in the head.

it is probable that cooper, whatever was wrong with him, was in dr. logan's care. when he died, logan simply lied about disposing of him, zipped up a specimen in a body bag and gave that to the soldiers to be buried.

i think the natural causes idea is much more likely than a bite. if he had been bitten, he most likely would've killed himself or been shot on the spot by one of the other soldiers. hell, he might have even asked someone to shot him like the soldier who is bitten in the neck during the corral scene.

so let's say cooper has a heart attack. dr. logan attempts to treat him but he dies. logan then stores his body away under lock and key, gives the soldiers a zombie to bury. none of the soldiers seem like the sentimental type and none of them seem too keen to be near dead folks.

This seems believable enough. In the original script, recently dead corpses were usually sent to medical staff (including Logan) to be disposed of by decapitation or a drill in the head.

[capncnut]

it is probable that cooper, whatever was wrong with him, was in dr. logan's care. when he died, logan simply lied about disposing of him, zipped up a specimen in a body bag and gave that to the soldiers to be buried.
I stand corrected, his brain was intact when he showed Cooper's body to Sarah. But yeah, still proves my point that Logan didn't murder him.

[JDFP]

Here's another issue with the notion of Dr. Logan "killing off" Major Cooper or other soldiers.

We know that Rhodes isn't exactly the best commanding officer in the world who is keen to constructive criticism and differing opinions/ideas (I'd say that Rhodes didn't get too many high marks for cultural sensitivity either). Major Cooper may have also been a nightmare to work with as well, but did Logan honestly think he'd have a better run of things with Rhodes in charge than he would with Cooper? If it's the case where Logan is killing off the soldiers in order to use them for Bub's dinner, wouldn't he have wanted to kill off Rhodes long before Cooper?

j.p.

[Andy]

I always imagined the soldiers that died having died from being bitten in the corral while trying to obtain "specimens".

I Dont think a commanding officer, a major, would be sent to obtain specimens.

[bassman]

when he died, logan simply lied about disposing of him, zipped up a specimen in a body bag and gave that to the soldiers to be buried.

Maybe i'm remembering wrong, but isn't this mentioned in the film? When Sarah discovers the body, I thought logan says something like "I exchanged the body with one of my specimens" or "they buried one of my specimens" or something like that?:rockbrow:

[Mike70]

Maybe i'm remembering wrong, but isn't this mentioned in the film? When Sarah discovers the body, I thought logan says something like "I exchanged the body with one of my specimens" or "they buried one of my specimens" or something like that?:rockbrow:

yes, it is. that was no great revelation on my part, just a re-iteration of fact known from the movie.

---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 PM ----------


I stand corrected, his brain was intact when he showed Cooper's body to Sarah. But yeah, still proves my point that Logan didn't murder him.

you know, i just thought of this: i wonder if cooper wasn't the first soldier used by logan as a specimen?

there is no way of knowing this for sure, but there were several other graves next to cooper's. since he took the chance to do that to cooper, i don't think he would've had many reservations about doing it to anyone else.

[JDFP]

I Dont think a commanding officer, a major, would be sent to obtain specimens.

Agreed about Major Cooper. But the other soldiers that died and are buried probably were sent to obtain the specimens. And in my post I did say soldiers. :)

j.p.

[Eyebiter]

I Dont think a commanding officer, a major, would be sent to obtain specimens.

Perhaps under normal circumstances.

However in Day of the Dead we are looking a small military unit suffering the effects of long term duress. Discipline has basically broken down. The men no longer wear their uniforms properly, there is outright disobedience among the remaining enlisted personnel, not to mention growing dope plants on the surface.

With so few soldiers manning a large installation, everyone would have to pitch in just to keep things going. Major Cooper wouldn't have the luxury to kick back in his office all day doing paperwork.

I've always envisioned Major Cooper as an adequate leader who was the only glue that held the lab together. While he might not have been popular with Logan, he was at least able to maintain a balance between the scientists and the soldiers. Once he was gone things fell apart.

[darth los]

Maybe i'm remembering wrong, but isn't this mentioned in the film? When Sarah discovers the body, I thought logan says something like "I exchanged the body with one of my specimens" or "they buried one of my specimens" or something like that?:rockbrow:


A couple of points here and atleast one inconsistency.:

When Sarah saw Cooper's fatigues she logan knew he was busted and said, "yes this is major Cooper." She replies, "but i saw the grave." And he retorts,"they buried one of the specimens."

There's more that meets the eye here. Whether Cooper died due to natural causes or whatever he would have been shot in the head. When his corpse was on the table the brain was obviously intact. So, it's unlikeley that his brain was destroyed.

If his brain wasn't destroyed how did cooper switch him with one of the specimen"s and get him to his lab?

Wierd.

:cool:

[bassman]

Maybe Logan got the bodies switched and Cooper on the table and "beheaded" BEFORE he turned?:shifty:

[DubiousComforts]

If his brain wasn't destroyed how did cooper switch him with one of the specimen"s and get him to his lab?
You mean how did Logan switch Cooper with one of the specimens.

Easy. Logan mentions that they (meaning the corpses) "can't be recognized" which leads me to believe he was removing the heads before burial and wrapping the body parts. No one would think to remove the shroud out of respect for their dead buddy.

Additionally, it doesn't matter if Cooper was in fact shot in the head upon death. Logan was simply utilizing the small central area of the brain that wasn't damaged in his experiment. And even if that part was damaged, Logan was stimulating it artificially.

[Trin]

I always got the impression (though slim on evidence) that Major Cooper died related to their war on zombies. The biggest reason because Rhodes counts him in the casualties suffered by the military.

I've always had issue with a couple things regarding Logan.

First, the fact that he obtained a still animated Major Cooper, complete with dogtags and brain intact. I don't see his men allowing that. Yeah, I can see him getting bit and then turned over to the medical staff as he got really sick. But after death I'd think at least one of them would assure his brain was destroyed before burial. Are we supposed to believe they couldn't identify the body?

Second, why would Logan experiment on Cooper? He has plenty of other zombies around to experiment on. The pen was full of them. What he didn't have was tons of live (or recently live) human flesh. I'd think saving Cooper's body for feeding to the zombies would be way more valuable than letting him come back as a zombie for experimentation. And we know zombies won't eat zombie so his body became useless as food the moment he reanimated.

Third, who was Logan feeding to Bub? It wasn't Cooper. The other soliders? Was Bub getting 3 squares a day? I never quite figured out how Logan was keeping enough supply on hand.

What I don't think - I don't think Logan was murdering or intentionally infecting soldiers. I don't see him getting away with it.

I also don't think Rhodes killed Cooper. He struck me as a good soldier when the chain of command above him was there to command. I don't think he got crazy until he was in charge. If he had been, the situation wouldn't have lasted that long no matter how good Cooper was.

[Andy]

Perhaps under normal circumstances.

However in Day of the Dead we are looking a small military unit suffering the effects of long term duress. Discipline has basically broken down. The men no longer wear their uniforms properly, there is outright disobedience among the remaining enlisted personnel, not to mention growing dope plants on the surface.

With so few soldiers manning a large installation, everyone would have to pitch in just to keep things going. Major Cooper wouldn't have the luxury to kick back in his office all day doing paperwork.

I've always envisioned Major Cooper as an adequate leader who was the only glue that held the lab together. While he might not have been popular with Logan, he was at least able to maintain a balance between the scientists and the soldiers. Once he was gone things fell apart.

Some interesting points, definatly but i still dont agree that major cooper would of been rounding up zombies with the troops. First off he is in charge of the unit and the most senior officer, no matter how disorganised i cant see a millitary unit putting its commanding officer in danger that way or him even volunteering for the job, especially in such a stressful bleak situation, all the more reason for the major to not put his life at risk. Also i get the impression that the unit really didnt start falling to bits until rhodes took over.

Also, could just be me stereotyping but when i think of a major i think of a older man. Hardly the natural choice for rounding up zombies.

[Philly_SWAT]

Some interesting points, definatly but i still dont agree that major cooper would of been rounding up zombies with the troops.

One good point in favor of your assertion...we never see Rhodes rounding up zombies.

[Mike70]

One good point in favor of your assertion...we never see Rhodes rounding up zombies.

we only see them being taken out of the corral.

sarah even says something along the lines of" we are losing the cooperation of the men...it's extremely dangerous to round them up in the wild...i don't even know if they'll go back out when we run out of the ones we already have."

that's a paraphrase but close enough.

so, we really don't see anyone rounding up the zombie supply nor do we know how it's done (maybe it's the old okie doke). i would imagine that getting those collars on them would be, um, very interesting.

i would think that quite a few of the casualties were caused by trying to capture the zombies "alive", so to speak.

---------- Post added at 06:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:59 PM ----------


Was Bub getting 3 squares a day? I never quite figured out how Logan was keeping enough supply on hand.



probably not. logan was probably training him just like you train a dog with rewards for proper behavior. as for the supply, i always got the impression that the bub experiment was a relatively recent development and when the opportunity to expand that experiment through a reward system presented itself, logan went for it.

[Philly_SWAT]

so, we really don't see anyone rounding up the zombie supply nor do we know how it's done (maybe it's the old okie doke).
LMAO!!:lol:


probably not. logan was probably training him just like you train a dog with rewards for proper behavior. as for the supply, i always got the impression that the bub experiment was a relatively recent development and when the opportunity to expand that experiment through a reward system presented itself, logan went for it.
I always had the same thought that you did. I never thought that Logan had been feeding Bub for a long time. In fact, I took it that the time that we the audience see Logan feeding Bub was in fact the first time it had ever happened.

[rongravy]

Ha, what about a botched suicide by the Major that left him in a coma and in the care of Logan? Maybe he pulled the trigger and it left him with that part of the brain Logan wanted to play with but not enough to snap out of it. Then Logan pulls the plug on him, tells them the Major died after he secretly restrains him and pulls off MOST of his head as proof to be buried with whoever the body belonged to. That still leaves him with the stem he had when we saw him.
I enjoy the stuff that gets thought out here. Some is wayyy out there sometimes but usually a head scratcher...

[Trin]

I always had the same thought that you did. I never thought that Logan had been feeding Bub for a long time. In fact, I took it that the time that we the audience see Logan feeding Bub was in fact the first time it had ever happened.
I would submit that he must've been feeding Bub prior to that since Bub was showing the positive effects of the training. The whole horrific twist of Bub was that he behaved to get the human meat. If what you say is true then he was already well behaved before getting the reward, and that contradicts the whole premise of the twist.

Not to mention that Bub saw the bucket and immediately put down his toys and dug in. He was used to the routine. I do my tricks - I get my reward.

That's not to say he'd fed him a lot or for a long time. It may have been a relatively recent development.

Another question is whether Logan had tried the technique on any others. He makes it sound like he's been trying the same techniques on several zombies and Bub is the only one who responded well. Yet it's pretty implausible that he's been feeding more than just Bub.

Regarding Cooper - Maybe he was the kind of leader that believed he should pitch in and help the troops. Maybe that aspect of his leadership was what kept the group going so long. The fact that Rhodes doesn't round up zombies doesn't mean anything about Cooper. It's clear that Rhodes has no intention of running the outfit how Cooper did. And given how quickly things broke down after Cooper died it's obvious Rhodes is doing something much worse.

It's also interesting to note that with the death of Cooper they seem to be very short-handed all of a sudden. I think that points to the idea that Cooper was directly helping and forcing Rhodes to help too. When he died it was like they lost 2 people.

All said and done I find it implausible that Cooper died of anything other than a zombie related incident.

[axlish]

I always figured that it was the third or fourth time feeding Bub. I say this because I feel that this plot angle creates a dynamic where the audience has to decide if Bub is merely trained by flesh treats, or there is a large population of zombies out there that are getting increasingly smarter and more dangerous, and aren't just stinking piles of pus.

[SymphonicX]

There's more that meets the eye here. Whether Cooper died due to natural causes or whatever he would have been shot in the head. When his corpse was on the table the brain was obviously intact. So, it's unlikeley that his brain was destroyed.

If his brain wasn't destroyed how did cooper switch him with one of the specimen"s and get him to his lab?

Wierd.

:cool:


That's exactly what I thought...

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:49 PM ----------

Hmm OK, so here's what needed to have happened as I see it:

Major Cooper dies, either from a bite or an illness. The soldiers, were entirely the type of people to put the final bullet into Cooper as he was awaking...that would be more their job than the scientists, wouldn't it?

So that means, when cooper died, he wasn't near any soldiers, which gives logan time to switch bodies, but also more oddly, he'd have to do that then "attack the central nervous system discreetly" (or whatever he says, he alludes to removing part of Cooper's brain so that all that remains is the "alive" part) - so Logan has to A) switch bodies convincingly (not sure how you'd do that at all, what with one green, decomposed corpse next to a fresh one) and B) get into Cooper's brain, do his major research, all before the zombie awakes...?

That leaves me to think...logan might just have killed Cooper before he was undead - which would make him a murderer....

[Mike70]

I always figured that it was the third or fourth time feeding Bub. I say this because I feel that this plot angle creates a dynamic where the audience has to decide if Bub is merely trained by flesh treats, or there is a large population of zombies out there that are getting increasingly smarter and more dangerous, and aren't just stinking piles of pus.

like i said above, i think that feeding bub was a recent development. i don't think when we actually see bub being fed was the first time but like you, i don't think it had been going on long. i think that the deaths of johnson and miller probably set off a light bulb in logan's mind. "hey, here's my chance to see how bub responds to a reward system."

it does beg the question: what does logan exactly mean when he says "bub is responding so well that i've decided to let him live." responding well to what? is bub simply less agressive than your average zombie because he's smarter? does he mean that bub had been responding well to the everyday items that logan had been exposing him to?

the other thing it brings up is why a reward system would even work with a zombie. as logan says in the movie, they don't really eat for nourishment, they are simply driven to it by instinct. instinctive behavior is nigh on impossible to modify. you can feed a lion everyday, reward it for its good behavior but that doesn't mean that as soon as you turn your back on it, it won't see you as lunch, breakfast or dinner. granted, a lion is an animal but i think that illustrates my point.

[darth los]

You mean how did Logan switch Cooper with one of the specimens.

Easy. Logan mentions that they (meaning the corpses) "can't be recognized" which leads me to believe he was removing the heads before burial and wrapping the body parts. No one would think to remove the shroud out of respect for their dead buddy.

Additionally, it doesn't matter if Cooper was in fact shot in the head upon death. Logan was simply utilizing the small central area of the brain that wasn't damaged in his experiment. And even if that part was damaged, Logan was stimulating it artificially.

I believe he used the word he (referring just to the major) and not them. I'll have to check when i get home but it's a huge semantic difference.

However, for the sake of argument, if he was removing the heads, why wasn't major cooper's head removed? Wouldn't the other's have found it wierd that he wasn't doing this to the major? So either he was removing heads or he wasn't. Furthermore, i got the impression that Logan and the military men weren't exactly on good terms and therefore they wouldn't want him hadling their comrades bodies let alone lopping the head of their buddy/superior off.

Also, there appeared to be no significant damage to cooper's brain even if he was just using the central area. So, no damage to the brain, no dead zombie. So if the ghoul was alive there couldn't be damage to the brain. Something there just doesn't add up. It looked as if there was intricate work involved in removing everything from around the brain stem. So i doubt the ghoul was "alive" when he was performing the procedure. Brain surgery is very delicate work. a ghoul jeking around trying to eat him while he's doing this would more than likely cause alot of unintended damage and render any experiment that he wanted to perform pointless.


Third, who was Logan feeding to Bub? It wasn't Cooper. The other soliders? Was Bub getting 3 squares a day? I never quite figured out how Logan was keeping enough supply on hand.

It's quite likely it was the other soldiers. We saw Rhodes and the men crack logan's freezer and about 5 bodies on the ground wearing army fatigues.

:cool:

[SymphonicX]

the other thing it brings up is why a reward system would even work with a zombie. as logan says in the movie, they don't really eat for nourishment, they are simply driven to it by instinct. instinctive behavior is nigh on impossible to modify. you can feed a lion everyday, reward it for its good behavior but that doesn't mean that as soon as you turn your back on it, it won't see you as lunch, breakfast or dinner. granted, a lion is an animal but i think that illustrates my point.

Very true but it's worth bearing in mind the zombies have historically shown a memory of their past lives - which could marry up to a sort of cause/effect notion in their brains. Big animals that are being fed by humans, as you say, don't appreciate who's feeding them - but they instead lose their fear of humans altogether and in a lot of places in the world end up being culled because they will approach humans, believing that they'll be fed, when they won't - and eventually they start attacking for the food...

However with the zeds and their past lives being human, it could be argued at a reward system is working because Logan was stimulating their faded memories and as a result slowly opening more and more powers of reason.

Although these guys don't have a fight/flight instinct like every animal on the planet, so in some ways they are both apart and close to the animal kingdom when looking at their instincts....but more apart really.

[Mike70]

Very true but it's worth bearing in mind the zombies have historically shown a memory of their past lives - which could marry up to a sort of cause/effect notion in their brains. Big animals that are being fed by humans, as you say, don't appreciate who's feeding them - but they instead lose their fear of humans altogether and in a lot of places in the world end up being culled because they will approach humans, believing that they'll be fed, when they won't - and eventually they start attacking for the food...

However with the zeds and their past lives being human, it could be argued at a reward system is working because Logan was stimulating their faded memories and as a result slowly opening more and more powers of reason.

Although these guys don't have a fight/flight instinct like every animal on the planet, so in some ways they are both apart and close to the animal kingdom when looking at their instincts....but more apart really.

yeah, i kept all that in mind. that last part of my post was pure leap of speculation on my part. it was intended to start just this sort of discussion.

as logan says, "they are us, simply functioning less perfectly."

i would bet that logan only moved to the reward stage after he was able to "reawaken" some of bub's memories by introducing him to things from normal life. once bub had responded positively to that and had shown a lower amount of aggression toward him, logan was probably like "time for the next step."

i'm not saying that it would be impossible to train zombies but that it would be difficult to do on a scale meaningful enough to make a difference. then there would be the next and most difficult problem, having an food supply for them so you can keep them dancing in tutus and riding unicycles.

[Trin]

After some thought, here's my appraisal...

I believe that Logan had very little success with Bub until he started feeding him. I believe Bub was the only one he was feeding based on the fact that Bub was the only one showing results. I believe Logan resorted to feeding Bub because he wasn't willing to give up the idea that the zombies could be trained, and that was the only thing he knew might motivate them.

How long had he been feeding him? As long as it had been since the first soldier ended up in the meat locker. The fact that he had them in the meat locker indicates that he thought of this reward system when the first soldier died. Assuming the soldiers died over a period of time and not all at once we can conclude it was for some period of time he'd been feeding Bub.

I'm okay with Logan having the soldier bodies. It may that after they were bitten he took them under his care and kept them sedated until they died. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's the only one we know was an actual doctor. The rest were scientists. When he had that first soldier body and no one was around I imagine the idea came to him. He stuffed a corpse in a body bag and gave it to the soldiers. He told them not to open the bag because he couldn't guarantee that the body wasn't communicable. They buried it sight-unseen.

I don't think Logan murdered anyone. As paranoid as the soldiers were they didn't suspect the scientists of any foul doing. It seems likely that the soldiers knew how the men died (or got bitten) and it was all very above board.

[Mike70]

How long had he been feeding him? As long as it had been since the first soldier ended up in the meat locker. The fact that he had them in the meat locker indicates that he thought of this reward system when the first soldier died. Assuming the soldiers died over a period of time and not all at once we can conclude it was for some period of time he'd been feeding Bub.

there is one glaring flaw in this idea though. sarah and fisher have no idea who bub is. if this had been going on for so long why does sarah have to tell fisher, that bub is logan's "star pupil." from sarah's reaction to bub in the first scene he appears in, she clearly has no idea who he is or what part he is playing in logan's experiments. then there are logan's statements during the scene with sarah in the lab, "we can begin to condition them, make them behave..." saying "we can begin" strongly suggests that logan hadn't done any real work on conditioning.

bub is chained to the wall in that scene and isn't even referred to by logan. i think it is far more likely that logan's discoveries in his experimentation on cooper's body probably put him on to the idea that the zombies could be conditioned.

so sarah and fisher's reaction to bub, along with logan's statements cast some serious doubt on this theory.

[Philly_SWAT]

I would submit that he must've been feeding Bub prior to that since Bub was showing the positive effects of the training. The whole horrific twist of Bub was that he behaved to get the human meat. If what you say is true then he was already well behaved before getting the reward, and that contradicts the whole premise of the twist.
I think that the twist is with Logan, not Bub. The twist is that Logan has decended into madness so far that he is feeding human meat to a zed. As I have mentioned in the past, it makes no sense whatsoever when trying to get a zombie to not want to eat human flesh to FEED THEM HUMAN FLESH. That contradicts Logan's whole line of research at its base.

Not to mention that Bub saw the bucket and immediately put down his toys and dug in. He was used to the routine. I do my tricks - I get my reward.I went and watched the scene...it is a full five seconds between the time that Logan sets the bucket down in front of Bub and the time his hands reach in. It took Bub a few seconds to realize what it was, otherwise he would have been reaching for it BEFORE Logan set it down.

like i said above, i think that feeding bub was a recent development. i don't think when we actually see bub being fed was the first time but like you, i don't think it had been going on long. i think that the deaths of johnson and miller probably set off a light bulb in logan's mind. "hey, here's my chance to see how bub responds to a reward system."
I agree with this. Unless I am wrong, Johnson and Miller had just been killed, so it had to be the first time when Bub was fed.

it does beg the question: what does logan exactly mean when he says "bub is responding so well that i've decided to let him live." responding well to what? is bub simply less agressive than your average zombie because he's smarter? does he mean that bub had been responding well to the everyday items that logan had been exposing him to?
I think that Bub was not "responding well" at all. That was simply Logan seeing what he wanted to see. I think Bub was just the unusual zombie that wasnt all that interested in attacking to eat. As seen in the scene before Logan feeds him, as Logan reaches to adjust the earphones on Bub's head, Bub grabs his arm. Logan momentarily looks afraid, Bub momentarily looks like he may bite him, however, he doesnt, and just gets docile. It was pure random co-incidence that Bub was not an attacker-type. Like Sarah has said earlier about Bub "Its not what he does, its what he doesnt do".

the other thing it brings up is why a reward system would even work with a zombie. as logan says in the movie, they don't really eat for nourishment, they are simply driven to it by instinct. instinctive behavior is nigh on impossible to modify. you can feed a lion everyday, reward it for its good behavior but that doesn't mean that as soon as you turn your back on it, it won't see you as lunch, breakfast or dinner. granted, a lion is an animal but i think that illustrates my point.
Excellent point. Again, I think it shows more of Logan becoming more and more insane. He only thinks the reward system is working. And even if it is working, he is trying to train zombies to not want to eat human flesh by giving them human flesh to eat. Makes no sense. It would be like trying to get me to quit robbing banks by bringing me into banks and letting me walk out with free money.

I believe that Logan had very little success with Bub until he started feeding him. I believe Bub was the only one he was feeding based on the fact that Bub was the only one showing results. I believe Logan resorted to feeding Bub because he wasn't willing to give up the idea that the zombies could be trained, and that was the only thing he knew might motivate them.
Again as I said above, I dont think that in reality Bub was showing any results, he was simply Bub being Bub. Logan was crazy. He saw what he wanted to see.

How long had he been feeding him? As long as it had been since the first soldier ended up in the meat locker. The fact that he had them in the meat locker indicates that he thought of this reward system when the first soldier died. Assuming the soldiers died over a period of time and not all at once we can conclude it was for some period of time he'd been feeding Bub.
I think the only soldiers in the meat locker were Miller and Johnson. I just looked, at least in the scene where Rhodes looks in there, I only see 2 bodies, not 5 as someone else mentioned.

I'm okay with Logan having the soldier bodies. It may that after they were bitten he took them under his care and kept them sedated until they died. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he's the only one we know was an actual doctor. The rest were scientists. When he had that first soldier body and no one was around I imagine the idea came to him. He stuffed a corpse in a body bag and gave it to the soldiers. He told them not to open the bag because he couldn't guarantee that the body wasn't communicable. They buried it sight-unseen.This is very believable. However, I dont think he was saving the flesh to eat zombies, that thought didnt occur until Johnson and Miller.

I don't think Logan murdered anyone. As paranoid as the soldiers were they didn't suspect the scientists of any foul doing. It seems likely that the soldiers knew how the men died (or got bitten) and it was all very above board.
I agree, Logan didnt murder anyone.

[Trin]

there is one glaring flaw in this idea though. sarah and fisher have no idea who bub is. if this had been going on for so long why does sarah have to tell fisher, that bub is logan's "star pupil."
So you are contending that this group worked closely together? Sarah had no clue what Logan had been doing research wise for months in any regard. The whole base saw him as reclusive and solitary. He could've had Bub there for months without anyone thinking too much about it.


then there are logan's statements during the scene with sarah in the lab, "we can begin to condition them, make them behave..." saying "we can begin" strongly suggests that logan hadn't done any real work on conditioning.
I think that points to the fact that he hadn't shared his ideas with anyone else, not to the fact that he'd only begun himself. The man had diagrams and recordings and tons of specimens to get to the point he was at. The fact that he allowed Bub to live because he was doing so well suggests he'd been attempting the same kind of conditioning on others already. This was not a new line of reasoning for him. He had a ton invested in his theory of conditioning them.

I do believe that the introduction of human meat as a reward was a recent development. But the conditioning as a whole... not new.


I think that the twist is with Logan, not Bub. The twist is that Logan has decended into madness so far that he is feeding human meat to a zed. As I have mentioned in the past, it makes no sense whatsoever when trying to get a zombie to not want to eat human flesh to FEED THEM HUMAN FLESH. That contradicts Logan's whole line of research at its base.
I disagree. Logan wasn't trying to teach them not to eat human flesh, he was trying to teach them not to attack humans. And he succeeded with Bub.


I went and watched the scene...it is a full five seconds between the time that Logan sets the bucket down in front of Bub and the time his hands reach in. It took Bub a few seconds to realize what it was, otherwise he would have been reaching for it BEFORE Logan set it down.
The whole scene played like something they'd done before. It was routine.


He only thinks the reward system is working. And even if it is working, he is trying to train zombies to not want to eat human flesh by giving them human flesh to eat. Makes no sense. It would be like trying to get me to quit robbing banks by bringing me into banks and letting me walk out with free money.
The reward system WAS working. Bub didn't attack anyone.

Your analogy is flawed. A better one is teaching a kid not to sneak ice cream from the fridge. You don't teach them not to want it. You teach them the boundaries under which they can attain it. And you do in fact reward them with the very thing they are trained not to take. Logan taught Bub to accept the reward on his terms rather than trying to take it.


I think that Bub was not "responding well" at all. That was simply Logan seeing what he wanted to see. I think Bub was just the unusual zombie that wasnt all that interested in attacking to eat. As seen in the scene before Logan feeds him, as Logan reaches to adjust the earphones on Bub's head, Bub grabs his arm. Logan momentarily looks afraid, Bub momentarily looks like he may bite him, however, he doesnt, and just gets docile. It was pure random co-incidence that Bub was not an attacker-type. Like Sarah has said earlier about Bub "Its not what he does, its what he doesnt do".
I don't accept the premise that Bub never wanted to eat humans. If that were true that bucket of meat would've gone untouched. But what we saw was a creature who was highly interested and motivated by snacktime.

Also, if Bub didn't care about eating human flesh then why did Logan start feeding him human flesh at all? Why would he even think about rewarding him that way? You'd actually be introducing him to something you're trying to condition out of him.

And finally, if Bub didn't care about human flesh why would Logan even waste time working with him? If his goal is to find a way to condition zombies to NOT eat human flesh why would you spend time with the one zombie who already didn't? I mean, what could you possible teach him? And how would you know if you were successful? That makes no sense.

No, when Bub looks at Logan's arm you see the internal struggle between wanting to take a bite and the training Logan has instilled. The docile look is the training winning out. And hence he earns the reward he knows will come if he behaves.

[Mike70]

So you are contending that this group worked closely together? Sarah had no clue what Logan had been doing research wise for months in any regard. The whole base saw him as reclusive and solitary. He could've had Bub there for months without anyone thinking too much about it.


I think that points to the fact that he hadn't shared his ideas with anyone else, not to the fact that he'd only begun himself. The man had diagrams and recordings and tons of specimens to get to the point he was at. The fact that he allowed Bub to live because he was doing so well suggests he'd been attempting the same kind of conditioning on others already. This was not a new line of reasoning for him. He had a ton invested in his theory of conditioning them.

I do believe that the introduction of human meat as a reward was a recent development. But the conditioning as a whole... not new.


they probably weren't working as closely together as they should have been in that sort of situation but sarah's comment (this is off the top of my head so it most likely isn't an exact quote)"i thought we were going to stop work on the theoretical and concentrate on the practical" does suggest that they were, at the very least, getting together for time to time and sharing notes/ideas.

we both seem to agree that the food reward was a new development. the only sticking point is whether the conditioning started with bub or if logan had been doing it for months. it's hard to know based on the info presented in the movie. it is also difficult to know if bub had been around very long before we first see him. this is a rather minor point.

on another note: this had to be one of the best day threads we have had around here in a long, long time.

[Trin]

they probably weren't working as closely together as they should have been in that sort of situation but sarah's comment (this is off the top of my head so it most likely isn't an exact quote)"i thought we were going to stop work on the theoretical and concentrate on the practical" does suggest that they were, at the very least, getting together for time to time and sharing notes/ideas.
We see lots of evidence that the individuals were all pulling their own directions. I think by the time Sarah sees what he's really doing they'd long since stopped interacting.

Purely in the realm of conjecture, I always saw Logan as the most important of the scientists, and I think everyone else did too. Not a leader per se, but the person everyone seemed to recognize was leading the effort. I felt like Sarah was just spinning her wheels and she knew if she could get Logan working towards more realistic goals they'd have had more success.


we both seem to agree that the food reward was a new development. the only sticking point is whether the conditioning started with bub or if logan had been doing it for months. it's hard to know based on the info presented in the movie. it is also difficult to know if bub had been around very long before we first see him. this is a rather minor point.

Yep. I see him taking some time and failure before he jumps off the cliff of feeding them. I see his recent successes with Bub as being directly related to the introduction of food. I would clarify, I don't think it was a terribly long time.

And yeah, this is a fun one!!

[Mike70]

Purely in the realm of conjecture, I always saw Logan as the most important of the scientists, and I think everyone else did too. Not a leader per se, but the person everyone seemed to recognize was leading the effort. I felt like Sarah was just spinning her wheels and she knew if she could get Logan working towards more realistic goals they'd have had more success.


totally agree. sarah's research (what little we know of it) seemed to be out of touch with the reality of the situation. so what if she finds a "reason" for the outbreak? that isn't really going to do much considering there are now millions of undead roaming the countryside. even finding a way to "reverse the process" doesn't amount to much in that situation. millions of undead against less than a dozen people (that we know of) are not good odds.

sarah is looking for a way to save the world. logan is looking for a way to control the problem in a manner that would allow humans some leeway and mobility, a way to create some sort of "safe zone" where the zombies don't look to munch down on every person they see. this last bit about safe zones is pure speculation on my part but since logan was seeking a manner of control, it makes sense that he would want to create a safe area that would allow further research on a much larger scale.

[Philly_SWAT]

I disagree. Logan wasn't trying to teach them not to eat human flesh, he was trying to teach them not to attack humans. And he succeeded with Bub.
Ummm....what would be worse for humanity, or for you personally ....ATTACKS from zombies that did not end with bites to where you eventually died and became a zombie yourself, or having your flesh eaten by a zombie. Personally ,I would take an attack with a black eye, a broken arm, etc, as long as my skin wasnt broken and I didnt become a zombie. If you agree with me on that, then you would have to agree that the eating of flesh is the thing to get rid of, not attacks.

The whole scene played like something they'd done before. It was routine.
At first you said he IMMEDIATELY ate the human meat, I watch it and say it was a full 5 seconds, then you dismiss that and just say it played like they had done it before.

The reward system WAS working. Bub didn't attack anyone.
I dont think he wanted to attack anyone.

Your analogy is flawed. A better one is teaching a kid not to sneak ice cream from the fridge. You don't teach them not to want it. You teach them the boundaries under which they can attain it. And you do in fact reward them with the very thing they are trained not to take. Logan taught Bub to accept the reward on his terms rather than trying to take it.
So what are you suggesting was the end game of this method of "training"? Even if there were an endless supply of human being, you think Logan would advocate killing some to feed the zeds in order to keep the rest of humans alive? And in this case, there wasnt an endless supply of human meat. Even if somehow feeding zeds human meat would keep them from attacking (and again, I suggest that it is the feeding that is the bad thing, more so than the attacking), and with only 11 human beings at his disposal, what was Logan going to do?

I don't accept the premise that Bub never wanted to eat humans. If that were true that bucket of meat would've gone untouched. But what we saw was a creature who was highly interested and motivated by snacktime.
Go back and look at what I said. I didnt say he didnt want to EAT humans, I said he didnt want to attack.

Also, if Bub didn't care about eating human flesh then why did Logan start feeding him human flesh at all? Why would he even think about rewarding him that way? You'd actually be introducing him to something you're trying to condition out of him.
Your last sentence there is what I am saying in general about the whole idea.

And finally, if Bub didn't care about human flesh why would Logan even waste time working with him? If his goal is to find a way to condition zombies to NOT eat human flesh why would you spend time with the one zombie who already didn't? I mean, what could you possible teach him? And how would you know if you were successful? That makes no sense.
It does make no sense if you think that I said Bub didnt want to EAT human flesh, which I never said. I said he didnt want to ATTACK humans. Obviously he wanted to eat humans, regardless of anyone's theory we all saw Bub eating human flesh in the movie.

No, when Bub looks at Logan's arm you see the internal struggle between wanting to take a bite and the training Logan has instilled. The docile look is the training winning out. And hence he earns the reward he knows will come if he behaves.
Like I said before, I dont think that had anything to do with Logan's "training", it was simply luck of the draw amongst zombies. Certainly most NBA players have had ample training throughout their lives. Why was Michael Jordon so much better than the rest? Because he had better training? Or just because he was better, luck of the genetic draw? It is not a stretch at all to suggest that among a large sample group that you are bound to find annomolies.

[sandrock74]

Like I said before, I dont think that had anything to do with Logan's "training", it was simply luck of the draw amongst zombies. Certainly most NBA players have had ample training throughout their lives. Why was Michael Jordon so much better than the rest? Because he had better training? Or just because he was better, luck of the genetic draw? It is not a stretch at all to suggest that among a large sample group that you are bound to find annomolies.

Well said. That has always been my thought about Bub...he was essentially an anomaly, nothing more, nothing less. At best, maybe he represented a certain portion of zombies who were more docile by nature than their more fiesty brethren. Maybe some zombies just tend to lack that "killer instinct" and/or aren't as hungry as the rest? Maybe that's how Big Daddy fits into the scheme of things?

[Trin]

So let me see if I understand the prevailing opinion. Bub was an anomaly because he did not want to Attack humans. He still wanted to Eat human flesh. Bub was docile before Logan started feeding him. In fact, he was docile before Logan started with him at all.

So why was he working with Bub at all? What was he trying to accomplish? Bub was not representative of the wider population of zombies. He was already exactly where you want the zombies to be. They don't attack. Who cares if they secretly desire to eat humans? So long as they don't do anything about it you don't have a problem.

Again I have to wonder what possessed Logan to feed Bub? And what progress had Bub made that Logan was so impressed by? If he was already docile then he'd made no progress.

I just don't get where you guys are coming from at all.

[capncnut]

So let me see if I understand the prevailing opinion. Bub was an anomaly because he did not want to Attack humans. He still wanted to Eat human flesh. Bub was docile before Logan started feeding him. In fact, he was docile before Logan started with him at all.

So why was he working with Bub at all? What was he trying to accomplish? Bub was not representative of the wider population of zombies. He was already exactly where you want the zombies to be. They don't attack. Who cares if they secretly desire to eat humans? So long as they don't do anything about it you don't have a problem.

Again I have to wonder what possessed Logan to feed Bub? And what progress had Bub made that Logan was so impressed by? If he was already docile then he'd made no progress.

I just don't get where you guys are coming from at all.
I agree with this. We have already established that hunger is not the reason why the undead eat the living but instict. So why is it so unbelievable that a few zombies out of ten thousand or so are just simply uninterested in attacking people?

The one thing that does spark interest with me is the scene where Bub reads Salem's Lot quietly in the background. Is he just looking at the page or is he actually trying to read it?

[Mike70]

So let me see if I understand the prevailing opinion. Bub was an anomaly because he did not want to Attack humans. He still wanted to Eat human flesh. Bub was docile before Logan started feeding him. In fact, he was docile before Logan started with him at all.

So why was he working with Bub at all? What was he trying to accomplish? Bub was not representative of the wider population of zombies. He was already exactly where you want the zombies to be. They don't attack. Who cares if they secretly desire to eat humans? So long as they don't do anything about it you don't have a problem.

Again I have to wonder what possessed Logan to feed Bub? And what progress had Bub made that Logan was so impressed by? If he was already docile then he'd made no progress.

I just don't get where you guys are coming from at all.

i don't think i've weighed in on bub yet. i agree with trin, the motivation for using bub as a subject makes no sense if he was already more docile than other zombies. if he was more docile, then the question becomes why? does he remember more from normal life than most zombies? is he some sort of 1% zombie who is less aggressive by nature?

the movie doesn't really give us the info we need. the first time we see bub he is chained to a wall. the next time we see him, it appears that logan has made tremendous strides in conditioning him. i don't want to get into a time debate in this thread (please god, anything but that) but it seems that the movie takes place over 5 days: 31 oct to 4 nov. is that enough time to condition bub in the manner that renders him as docile as we see in the later scenes? that's a bit of a hard sell (it is also something that just came to mind) or it means that trin is right and the conditioning experiments had been going on for far longer than shown in the movie. logan would've been able to use his past experience to speed up the process with bub.

however, if logan's experiments in conditioning hadn't been going for long and bub was the first one, then given the time, we have to look at the possibility that bub was a "special" zombie. i'm not so sure that we can make that assertion based on what we see in the movie. bub does show aggressive behavior towards some of the characters. he lunges at sarah in the lab and points a gun at rhodes and pulls the trigger (note: i am talking about the scene in the lab NOT the scene after bub finds logan's body).

as counter evidence i would also submit that bub is the only zombie prior to big daddy to show any sort of emotion (other than mindless rage) and the only zombie who displays emotion towards a human. bub is clearly saddened and distraught when he finds logan's body. even more importantly than the emotion that bub shows toward logan, he is also the only zombie to display one of the most powerful emotions: fear. bub is clearly frightened by rhodes in the lab scene and seems to understand that rhodes intends him harm. that is a huge leap for a creature that before then, was considered nothing more than a mindless eating machine.

and again we don't have enough info to say for certain whether logan was able to tap in some essence of humanity that bub had or whether bub was already capable of making those connections. i lean toward logan unlocking those emotions through his interaction with bub. maybe logan was able to remind bub that he was once a human being.

[Trin]

I agree with this. We have already established that hunger is not the reason why the undead eat the living but instict. So why is it so unbelievable that a few zombies out of ten thousand or so are just simply uninterested in attacking people?

I agree, this is not unbelievable at all. In fact, we see signs of this in Dawn. Several of the zombies in the mall seem docile while they are standing on the other side of the glass as they clean out the mall. But I think the evidence suggests Bub was not that zombie.


if he was more docile, then the question becomes why?
Exactly. I'd agree that if Bub was docile he'd be a great test subject to try to figure out why he was different from the rest. But that was not the question Logan was asking. He was trying to get Bub to change his behavior. And he was reporting that Bub HAD changed his behavior. All of that suggests Bub was just as aggressive as the others prior to Logan's conditioning.


the first time we see bub he is chained to a wall. the next time we see him, it appears that logan has made tremendous strides in conditioning him.And my assertion is that the rapid progress came because he started rewarding Bub with human flesh. It was the only thing we know of that a zombie will work for.


bub is the only zombie prior to big daddy to show any sort of emotion (other than mindless rage) and the only zombie who displays emotion towards a human. bub is clearly saddened and distraught when he finds logan's body. Interesting point. It's hard to say that the positive displays of emotion make Bub special. He is the only zombie we ever see being nurtured by a human. And he doesn't show the same emotions toward Sarah or the others, only Logan. So it seems more a response to his environment than an intrisic part of him.


he is also the only zombie to display one of the most powerful emotions: fear. bub is clearly frightened by rhodes in the lab scene and seems to understand that rhodes intends him harm. that is a huge leap for a creature that before then, was considered nothing more than a mindless eating machine.
A minor point, but all the zombies in the pen showed signs of fear. They even specifically addressed this. The zombies would not come up to the pen gates anymore because, "they know what Frankenstein is gonna do to them."

All of these examples prove that zombies will develop the emotions they need for the situation they are in. Logan nurtures Bub - Bub responds with empathy. Rhodes shows disdain - Bub responds with anger. The military hurt the zombies in the pen - the zombies responds with fear.

This is one of the things I love about Day. They start to really delve into the condition itself rather than just dealing with the resulting zombies.

[Mike70]

A minor point, but all the zombies in the pen showed signs of fear. They even specifically addressed this. The zombies would not come up to the pen gates anymore because, "they know what Frankenstein is gonna do to them."


argh! to my shame i hadn't considered the pen scene and sarah's comment, "they're acutally learning." that takes the air out of my assertion that bub was the only one to show fear. the zombies in the pen are certainly wary of approaching the gate but it seems that their desire for human tartar overpowered that.

i think the capn has raised an interesting point. if the zombies are "us functioning less perfectly", then it makes perfect sense that like people, some undead would be more aggressive than others.

---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------


I agree, this is not unbelievable at all. In fact, we see signs of this in Dawn. Several of the zombies in the mall seem docile while they are standing on the other side of the glass as they clean out the mall. But I think the evidence suggests Bub was not that zombie.

another good point. correct me if am wrong, doesn't one of the zombies actually walk away from fran after she is released from the door? you could argue that she was simply drawn to the sounds of the other 3 people attempting to secure the mall but, when you watch that scene, it doesn't really appear to be the case.

the baseball zombie in the mall simply sits there watching fran through the glass, seemingly oblivious to what is happening around him.

[Philly_SWAT]

So let me see if I understand the prevailing opinion. Bub was an anomaly because he did not want to Attack humans. He still wanted to Eat human flesh. Bub was docile before Logan started feeding him. In fact, he was docile before Logan started with him at all.

So why was he working with Bub at all? What was he trying to accomplish? Bub was not representative of the wider population of zombies. He was already exactly where you want the zombies to be. They don't attack. Who cares if they secretly desire to eat humans? So long as they don't do anything about it you don't have a problem.
I think it is obvious when Logan says "I decided to let him live" that it was common sense/common knowledge that the end result of all his "experiments" was the death (or final death) of his test "subjects". Sarah even says something like "you are slicing up too many of them", and worried that the men would not round up any in the wild anymore. Obviously, he was not keeping any, training any, etc. He was disecting them to learn about things "central to the condition". The reason he decided to keep Bub around was that BUB DIDNT WANT TO ATTACK AND EAT HIM. Ergo, Bub was aleady docile.

I guess I should clarify...my comments about the attacking without breaking the skin were not meant to imply I think as long as they dont eat attacking is OK, but to show the difference between the two, and to illustrate that it is rediculous to train a zed to not attack a human by feeding them human flesh. I havent seen anyone in this thread address that point, that it makes no sense whatsoever to do that.


Again I have to wonder what possessed Logan to feed Bub? And what progress had Bub made that Logan was so impressed by? If he was already docile then he'd made no progress.
I say Logan decided to feed Bub HUMAN FLESH because Logan was pushed over the edge into insanity.



A minor point, but all the zombies in the pen showed signs of fear. They even specifically addressed this. The zombies would not come up to the pen gates anymore because, "they know what Frankenstein is gonna do to them."



argh! to my shame i hadn't considered the pen scene and sarah's comment, "they're acutally learning." that takes the air out of my assertion that bub was the only one to show fear. the zombies in the pen are certainly wary of approaching the gate but it seems that their desire for human tartar overpowered that.
I always had a problem with that line. There would be no way whatsover for the zeds to learn anything about Logan's intentions towards them. For all they know, once zeds left the corral they were taken to a 24 hour all you can eat human smorgasborg. Unless once they took zeds back to the lab they allowed them one phone call, and they called the zeds back in the corral and told them what was up.



another good point. correct me if am wrong, doesn't one of the zombies actually walk away from fran after she is released from the door? you could argue that she was simply drawn to the sounds of the other 3 people attempting to secure the mall but, when you watch that scene, it doesn't really appear to be the case.

the baseball zombie in the mall simply sits there watching fran through the glass, seemingly oblivious to what is happening around him.
Case in point. The baseball zombie and the nun zombie both seemed to have no desire in attacking. Perhaps Bub's lack of attack instinct wasnt that rare at all in the zed population.

[Trin]

I think it is obvious when Logan says "I decided to let him live" that it was common sense/common knowledge that the end result of all his "experiments" was the death (or final death) of his test "subjects". Sarah even says something like "you are slicing up too many of them", and worried that the men would not round up any in the wild anymore. Obviously, he was not keeping any, training any, etc. He was disecting them to learn about things "central to the condition". The reason he decided to keep Bub around was that BUB DIDNT WANT TO ATTACK AND EAT HIM.

I agree with all of this, with the caveat that I believe he was attempting to train others without success and without feeding them.



Ergo, Bub was aleady docile.
However, I don't think this is a sound conclusion. My conclusion is that his training worked on Bub. And a perfectly good reason that his training worked on Bub where it failed on others is that he fed Bub. And once his training worked on Bub you're darned right he didn't want to destroy him.


...and to illustrate that it is rediculous to train a zed to not attack a human by feeding them human flesh. I havent seen anyone in this thread address that point, that it makes no sense whatsoever to do that.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with this. Are you questioning using the flesh as a reward system or questioning the validity of this line of investigation? When I addressed this before you only pointed out that there was no end result solution to the worldwide zombie problem forthcoming as a result of Logan's work. Which I tend to agree with. But as a method of training I don't see anything wrong with this. You suppress a behavior (attacking humans) with a reward (the human flesh). It doesn't get much simpler than that.

As for the rationale behind Logan's work, Logan wanted to prove that zombies could be trained to overcome their instinct to attack and eat humans. All his research was pushing that point. And he proved it with Bub. Even Sarah was surprised by his results. The fact that he only attained this behavior using human flesh as a reward system showed how desperate he was toward proving it. And maybe he was insane for doing that. We don't know. His research was in the realm of theoretical, not practical, which is common in base research so I don't think you can criticize the lack of long-range vision. He was focused on proving his theories.


We don't know what his next step would've been. Maybe he had a theory for how he could use Bub to teach the other zombies not to eat humans. Let Bub be the example that the other zombies follow. We know that the zombies have a certain flocking mentality. Teach one zombie something and others pick it up. Maybe he had that in mind. We don't know.


I say Logan decided to feed Bub HUMAN FLESH because Logan was pushed over the edge into insanity.
This is a fairly critical plot point in the movie. Can you really dismiss it as nonsense and label the motivation of the character insanity? Your whole line of reasoning relies on this act having no motivation or rationale for Logan whatsoever. Not even a misguided or short-sighted one. He just up and decided one day, "I should feed my prize zombie human flesh. I don't see any problem with that."


I always had a problem with that line. There would be no way whatsover for the zeds to learn anything about Logan's intentions towards them. For all they know, once zeds left the corral they were taken to a 24 hour all you can eat human smorgasborg. Unless once they took zeds back to the lab they allowed them one phone call, and they called the zeds back in the corral and told them what was up.
No, there's no way for the zombies to know what would happen to them. Although they could surmise what treatment awaited them as they witnessed others being carted out of the pen in neck collars never to be seen again. And with comments like, "they know what Frankenstein is gonna do to them" overheard maybe they understood enough to get the point. Whatever. They did show fear, which is the primary point.



Case in point. The baseball zombie and the nun zombie both seemed to have no desire in attacking. Perhaps Bub's lack of attack instinct wasnt that rare at all in the zed population.
I don't have a strong opinion on the whole idea of non-hostile zombies. We really don't know what the nun and baseball player zombies would've done had Fran not been behind glass. If she'd tried to give em a hug would they have hugged her back or bit her? My opinion is bit her. Are there any examples of zombies who had a human in mouth's reach that didn't bite?

I'd also ask why Sarah was surprised by Bub's lack of aggression if these non-hostile zombies were around. She'd obviously never seen a zombie like this before.

If Bub were not hostile when they first rounded him up don't you think the group as a whole would've been informed? I mean, that's a pretty big piece of information in the understanding of zombies to keep from the other researchers. Why would Logan keep that little nugget of info to himself? I don't see it. I think they would've been hot to try to figure out why he was different. But they didn't act that way. They acted like they already knew why he was different. Because he was conditioned.

[Philly_SWAT]

I'm not sure what you're getting at with this. Are you questioning using the flesh as a reward system or questioning the validity of this line of investigation? When I addressed this before you only pointed out that there was no end result solution to the worldwide zombie problem forthcoming as a result of Logan's work. Which I tend to agree with. But as a method of training I don't see anything wrong with this. You suppress a behavior (attacking humans) with a reward (the human flesh). It doesn't get much simpler than that.

I am getting at this is a ridiculous idea at its core. Lets assume we both agree that in real life it would be a good thing if we could get pedophiles to stop molesting little children. If the only way we could get them to suppress that behavior (molesting kids) was to reward them by letting them rape the elderly without fear of punishment (reward=free pass to rape elderly), is that an avenue that we even remotely want to explore? Lets say we could successfully, 100% stop pedophiles from molesting kids, but now they are all elderly rapers. What have we accomplished? Nothing of any value, we have substituted one shit-ass situation for another. This is how I dont see how training a zed to not attack a human by rewarding them with human flesh makes any sense. That is why I said that the eating of human flesh is the worst thing between that and simple attacks.

Assume you CAN get zeds to stop attacking humans by giving them human flesh as a reward...OK now what? First of all, where are you getting the human flesh? And second of all, once that supply of human flesh runs out, what do you think the zeds will do? Sit and pout that they no longer have handouts of free flesh, or do you think they will simply start attacking again? It is a false success concept. They want to eat warm, living human flesh. Usually they attack humans to get it, as there isnt warm human flesh laying around for the taking. Make it easy for them as give it to them? Ok, they stop attacking cuz now there is no need for attacking. "They are us" and most of us are lazy. Give me something for free and I wont complain and say I want to pay for it. Now stop giving them the human meat, they still want it, so they start attacking again.

Zeds have an end result in mind (eating human flesh). Attacking humans is a means to that end. By giving them human meat, you only give them the end result they require without having to use their usual means (attacking humans). Once the supply stops, they will resume the means to get to their desired ends. To think that you have "trained them" is faulty.

[Mike70]

Assume you CAN get zeds to stop attacking humans by giving them human flesh as a reward...OK now what? First of all, where are you getting the human flesh? And second of all, once that supply of human flesh runs out, what do you think the zeds will do?

if i'm not mistaken we hear several times in night and again in dawn that the zombies will attack and feed on all warm blooded creatures. i suppose that logan is using human meat because the deaths of miller and johnson have given him an opportunity to do so. the best solution would be to provide an alternate source of flesh, let's just say for the sake of the discussion that it's deer meat. again, we have the problem of where it is going to come from. logan can't very well ask the soldiers to go out and hunt deer because he wants to feed venison to the undead. somehow, i don't think that would've gone over very well.

this does bring up a question that i've wondered about: why aren't they using the helicopter to hunt? some fresh food would've done wonders for morale. but that is a topic for another thread.:D

so maybe logan is using human flesh in an attempt to see if it is even possible to condition a zombie to not attack its handlers. but this still puts logan in a difficult situation. if the experiment works and he does need a further source of flesh, he is going to be forced to ask the soldiers for help. even the densest of them is going to wonder how logan had the means to train a zombie through food.

if the zombies are, in fact, interested in eating all warm blooded creatures then human flesh would just be another food source to them. i don't know if the zombies could distinguish between human, deer, beef, etc. if they can't distinguish between them, which given their level of instinctive motivation and relative lack of intellec is likely, then the danger of giving them human flesh in an attempt to stop them from attacking humans is lessened.
i think that the reason bub rejects the beef treats, which the army had provided so generously, wasn't because they were made of beef but because they were cooked.

[zombiekiller]

i always figured rhodes did it, him being all crazy an' all.

s big as he was, he might have died of a heart attack from all the stress with all that was going on

[Trin]

In Logan's view behavior modification was the key to a solution and proving his theories was essential. Regardless of what we think about his methods or the practical application of it, that's what he was doing. We have to assess his actions in view of his motivation, not what we would have as motivation in his situation. His actions aligned with his motivation.

If you think his methods were horrific, well, that was the point. His character was supposed to be painted as a monster. If you say his efforts were not going to accomplish anything practical, okay, I can buy that. But show me anything the scientists were doing that was practical. They were all mired in basic research, still trying to understand the problem.

I'm not buying into the idea that Bub was already docile when Logan got him. Nothing in the movie suggests that, and plenty of things suggest the opposite. I'm not buying that Logan decided to start giving Bub human flesh for no reason save insanity. There has to be an explanation for that activity within Logan's motivation. The whole premise of a docile Bub requires that we ignore too much of what's going on in the movie and requires a wholesale rewrite of Logan's motivation.

The molestation analogy is very apples to oranges. No one was being sacrificed to further Logan's research. If the soldiers signed waivers to allow their bodies to be used for medical research after their deaths he wasn't even doing anything illegal. And they weren't swapping one bad situation for another, they were increasing thier knowledge. Logan challenged and refuted one broad assumption about zombie behavior - that they were incapable of resisting the desire to feed.

Logan never proposed a mass feeding of the zombies. He used the reward method to prove his theories in an isolated laboratory experiment, nothing more. What he planned to do with his discovery, if anything, is unknown.

[Philly_SWAT]

I'm not buying into the idea that Bub was already docile when Logan got him. Nothing in the movie suggests that, and plenty of things suggest the opposite.Such as?:confused:


The molestation analogy is very apples to oranges. No one was being sacrificed to further Logan's research.
For the research to mean anything, human beings would eventually have to be sacrificed in order to have zombie chow.


If the soldiers signed waivers to allow their bodies to be used for medical research after their deaths he wasn't even doing anything illegal.
Are you suggesting they did??


And they weren't swapping one bad situation for another, they were increasing thier knowledge.
Increasing their knowledge....?? I submit that it would be common sense that if you took a creature, ANY creature, human, zombie, gorilla, etc. that generally attacked to get meat food, and you just gave them food, they would be content with that food and not bother with the trouble of attacking. UNTIL you quit giving them food, then they would go back to attacking.


Logan challenged and refuted one broad assumption about zombie behavior - that they were incapable of resisting the desire to feed.

Again, this makes no sense. He did not refute that the zeds "were incapable of resisting the desire to feed", because he WAS FEEDING THEM at the time.

[Trin]

Such as?:confused:
Bub lunging for Sarah. Bub pointing the gun at Rhodes and attempting to shoot. Bub ultimately shooting Rhodes. The fact that Logan was training Bub at all and claiming he was showing progress. The fact that none of the other scientists knew Bub was non-aggressive. Sarah's surprise at Bub's docile behavior. All of those things point to Bub being just like all the other zombies until after Logan trained him.

What evidence shows that Bub was docile previously?


For the research to mean anything, human beings would eventually have to be sacrificed in order to have zombie chow.
Who says his research had to mean anything? Logan's stated and demonstrated motivation was to prove his theories. Any assumption of what Logan's next steps would've been, or even to suggest he had thought it through, is conjecture. Sarah even comments that all he's doing is proving theories.


Are you suggesting they did??
I'm suggesting that comparing Logan's actions to that of using condoned rape as a treatment for molestation is not a good comparison. And I'm suggesting *the possibility* that what Logan did was not even illegal.


I submit that it would be common sense that if you took a creature, ANY creature, human, zombie, gorilla, etc. that generally attacked to get meat food, and you just gave them food, they would be content with that food and not bother with the trouble of attacking. UNTIL you quit giving them food, then they would go back to attacking.
That might be true if the zombie in question had a ready and endless supply of food. Bub didn't.


Again, this makes no sense. He did not refute that the zeds "were incapable of resisting the desire to feed", because he WAS FEEDING THEM at the time.
When Logan puts his hand up to adjust the earphone on Bub there is not another food source sitting there for Bub to eat. Bub had to choose between instant gratification and the possibility of a deferred reward. Our previous understanding of zombie behavior suggests that they don't ever stop pursuing food and they take any opportunity to bite into it - i.e. Bub should've taken the instant gratification.

So Bub's behavior was really quite remarkable. Sarah's comments support that.

[Philly_SWAT]

Bub lunging for Sarah. Bub pointing the gun at Rhodes and attempting to shoot. Bub ultimately shooting Rhodes. The fact that Logan was training Bub at all and claiming he was showing progress. The fact that none of the other scientists knew Bub was non-aggressive. Sarah's surprise at Bub's docile behavior. All of those things point to Bub being just like all the other zombies until after Logan trained him.
Go back and watch the scene. Bub hardly "lunges for" Sarah. He simply moves, the "scary music" hits, and Sarah looks scared, although if you look at Bub, he is looking and acting very docile. Bub ultimately shooting Rhodes was after Logan was dead, hence after any supposed training by Logan.

What evidence shows that Bub was docile previously?
The very fact that Logan didnt kill him like he killed every single solitary zombie that he worked with before.

Who says his research had to mean anything? Logan's stated and demonstrated motivation was to prove his theories. Any assumption of what Logan's next steps would've been, or even to suggest he had thought it through, is conjecture. Sarah even comments that all he's doing is proving theories.
Isnt the point of any research for it to mean something? Especially in their situation? The scientific team was supposed to be finding solutions.

That might be true if the zombie in question had a ready and endless supply of food. Bub didn't.
Your comment makes no sense. If anything, it supports what I was saying.

When Logan puts his hand up to adjust the earphone on Bub there is not another food source sitting there for Bub to eat. Bub had to choose between instant gratification and the possibility of a deferred reward. Our previous understanding of zombie behavior suggests that they don't ever stop pursuing food and they take any opportunity to bite into it - i.e. Bub should've taken the instant gratification.
Yes he should've. In fact, he should've since the moment he was collared in the wild and brought into the corral. And then he should've when brought into Logans lab. If he were like all the other zombies, then he surely would have, and Logan would not have "allowed him to live". However, unlike all previous zombies that Logan had in his lab, something about Bub was different, different enough that Logan did not destroy him. What can we speculate was that difference? What we see in the film is that he doesnt try to attack anyone. At all. Not even Rhodes at the end. He shoots him from afar.

So Bub's behavior was really quite remarkable. Sarah's comments support that.
Yes Sarah's comment does support that his behavior was quite remarkable. Remarkable not for what he does, but for what he doesnt do. For what he never did.

[Trin]

I think we've hit the point where we're not going to get anywhere.

You believe Bub was docile from before Logan got a hold of him.

I believe Logan conditioned Bub to be docile.

We seem to be throwing out the same arguments over and over again. No sense rehashing.

I think we both agree that Logan was not killing the soldiers to provide food, which addresses the original post. :)

Fun debate though.

[fartpants]

well i never imagined when i asked a simple question the level of debate it would cause, thanks to all the posters for giving me a ton of things to think about, and i have to say that i was way out when i suggested that Logan was killing soldiers..... but the guy was bat-shit crazy i think we can all agree on that one...:elol::elol::elol:

[Philly_SWAT]

I think we've hit the point where we're not going to get anywhere.
Ah, it is always sad when a discussion reaches this point. I usually fell like I am losing a good friend.


You believe Bub was docile from before Logan got a hold of him. Yes, an excellent point.


I believe Logan conditioned Bub to be docile.
Umm...not so excellent...


We seem to be throwing out the same arguments over and over again. No sense rehashing.
Instead of rehashing we could try re-marijuana-ing if you want?


I think we both agree that Logan was not killing the soldiers to provide food, which addresses the original post. :)
Yes I had totally lost track of the OP. And yes we agree on that.


Fun debate though.
Yes, very fun.


well i never imagined when i asked a simple question the level of debate it would cause, thanks to all the posters for giving me a ton of things to think about, and i have to say that i was way out when i suggested that Logan was killing soldiers..... but the guy was bat-shit crazy i think we can all agree on that one...:elol::elol::elol:
Yes I think we can!

[Trin]

Ah, it is always sad when a discussion reaches this point. I usually fell like I am losing a good friend.
Pointless arguments are your friend. Finally I have a believable reason for your position!! :eek::lol::moon:


Yes, an excellent point.
Yes, it was, thank you!!

lol

[Philly_SWAT]

Pointless arguments are your friend. Finally I have a believable reason for your position!! :eek::lol::moon:
lol
Well, it may be a believable reason, but not an accurate one. If one of us (or two others in such discussions) is finally able to persuade the other, then it was not pointless. I am saddened when I have been unable to shine the light of reason on a fellow GAR fan, leaving them to wallow in the mire of their own mistaken opinions. :) Plus it is fun to exercise the brain in something other than "serious" considerations, such as sales projections, etc.

[Trin]

I am saddened when I have been unable to shine the light of reason on a fellow GAR fan, leaving them to wallow in the mire of their own mistaken opinions.
Your comment makes no sense. If anything, it supports what I was saying. :hyper:

I would be happy to shine my light up into your darkness some more. :)

[Philly_SWAT]

I would be happy to shine my light up into your darkness some more. :)
In that case, answer this question for me. Over what time period do you think that the events we see in Day of the Dead take place in? In other words, from the first non-dream we see of them flying over Ft Myers, to the time they are on the beach at the end, how many days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, etc. do you think have passed?

[Mike70]

In that case, answer this question for me. Over what time period do you think that the events we see in Day of the Dead take place in? In other words, from the first non-dream we see of them flying over Ft Myers, to the time they are on the beach at the end, how many days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries, etc. do you think have passed?

5 days.

why else show 31 oct on the calendar in the dream and then make a point of showing 4 nov on the calendar during the last scene of the movie? any other conclusion makes very little sense.

[Philly_SWAT]

5 days.

why else show 31 oct on the calendar in the dream and then make a point of showing 4 nov on the calendar during the last scene of the movie? any other conclusion makes very little sense.
I tend to agree. The reason I ask was to see if Trin agrees with that, and if so, how he thinks that fits in with his training Bub to be docile theories.

[Trin]

Yes, I tend to agree with that timetable.

I tend to believe that the training of Bub had an epiphany moment when Logan started feeding him. He may have been working with Bub for a week, a few weeks, or a couple months. But the progress he alludes to was a breakthrough event directly following the first - or first couple - feedings.

I also tend to believe (though this is conjecture) that Logan's training likely only convinced Bub to be docile towards him and not towards anyone. By that I mean Bub would allow Logan's hand near his face, but I'm not sure he would do so for others. He seemed more fearful of other humans. Almost like an animal backed into a corner. He knows he's powerless while on that chain but get close enough to him and he might bite your face off. That behavior is evident when Logan gave him a gun and he pointed it at Rhodes. He didn't point it at Logan, and by all accounts he'd never interacted with Rhodes before.

[Philly_SWAT]

Yes, I tend to agree with that timetable.

I tend to believe that the training of Bub had an epiphany moment when Logan started feeding him. He may have been working with Bub for a week, a few weeks, or a couple months. But the progress he alludes to was a breakthrough event directly following the first - or first couple - feedings.


So you believe that Logan was working with Bub possibly for a "couple of months" without Sarah or anyone else knowing about it?

[Trin]

So you believe that Logan was working with Bub possibly for a "couple of months" without Sarah or anyone else knowing about it?
We don't know how long he works with each specimen before he destroys it. We don't know how much longer Bub was allowed to live since he was doing well.

Without Sarah or anyone else knowing about - no. Without Sarah or anyone else seeing the startling results or knowing he'd been feeding him, yes. He could've been working with Bub for a week, a couple week, or longer without showing any results of any significance. Then within the past 5 days he starts feeding him and voila - results.

[blind2d]

Exactly! By george, I think you've got it! Bravo!

[Philly_SWAT]

We don't know how long he works with each specimen before he destroys it. We don't know how much longer Bub was allowed to live since he was doing well.

Without Sarah or anyone else knowing about - no. Without Sarah or anyone else seeing the startling results or knowing he'd been feeding him, yes. He could've been working with Bub for a week, a couple week, or longer without showing any results of any significance. Then within the past 5 days he starts feeding him and voila - results.
But in the scene where we the audience see Bub for the first time, Sarah acts as if she has never seen him before. She seemed unaware that Logan would have ANY zed chained up there, let alone Bub, or else she wouldnt have casually stood there, only to be shocked by Bub's movements. So somehow I dont see how that supports Logan having Bub for "weeks".

[blind2d]

I think Sarah was just caught off-guard and skittish at the time due to Rhodes' grilling immediately beforehand. Or maybe... they just didn't put as much thought into it as we are now...

[Trin]

But in the scene where we the audience see Bub for the first time, Sarah acts as if she has never seen him before.
And how does Sarah act that indicates she's never seen Bub before? Being startled by his presence isn't indicative she's never seen him before.


She seemed unaware that Logan would have ANY zed chained up there, let alone Bub, or else she wouldnt have casually stood there, only to be shocked by Bub's movements.
That's an interesting observation. It seems odd to me she'd be surprised by a zombie being chained there. It's unrealistic to think he never keeps zombies there, or that she wouldn't know it. Regardless as to the zombie being Bub that's just weird. The best I can contend is that it proves how shaken she was, as blind2d points out.


So somehow I dont see how that supports Logan having Bub for "weeks".I don't think it refutes it either.

[Philly_SWAT]

And how does Sarah act that indicates she's never seen Bub before? Being startled by his presence isn't indicative she's never seen him before.True, althought as mentioned below, if Logan was actually "keeping" zeds, and zeds, in the lab, instead of immediately getting them strapped to tables with the help of whoever is bringing them in there, then Sarah shouldnt have been surprised that Bub, or any zed, was there.

That's an interesting observation. It seems odd to me she'd be surprised by a zombie being chained there. It's unrealistic to think he never keeps zombies there, or that she wouldn't know it. Regardless as to the zombie being Bub that's just weird. The best I can contend is that it proves how shaken she was, as blind2d points out.
Did Sarah strike you as the type who was easily shaken by Rhodes verbal assaults? She seems to be more of the angry type, not the shaken-lose-control/memory type. As you leaves she says "Yes Sir. Fuck you sir". Then later in the day (the next scene after Bub I believe) is the whole 'sit down or I'll have you shot' scene. Even then, Sarah doesnt seem shaken. When she finally DOES sit down, she is pissed off, slamming her clipboard down. I dont think she was "skittish" as blind suggests.

I don't think it refutes it either.No, it doesnt refute it, but I didnt claim it did, just pointed out that I dont think it supports your assertions.

[Trin]

Did Sarah strike you as the type who was easily shaken by Rhodes verbal assaults? She seems to be more of the angry type, not the shaken-lose-control/memory type. As you leaves she says "Yes Sir. Fuck you sir".
I think Sarah *was* shaken by the verbal assault, whether she displayed it in the room or not. IMO she was displayed as someone who could handle herself in the crisis but then it all caught up with her after the crisis was over. She was stressed, popping some unknown pills, having nightmares, having fights with her man, started drinking, etc. It's hard to believe she was operating as well as she was at the time.

Why was she startled by Bub being there? I don't know that there is a definitive answer that will make everyone go "Ah, yeah, that's it." Maybe Logan really never kept any zombies chained there before. Maybe Bub being unusually docile (either through his nature, his training, or having been around poeple more) was less noticeable than another zombie might've been. Maybe Sarah was still distracted by the events with Rhodes and wasn't paying enough attention.