This country???

[capncnut]

Right, I was listening on LBC about how some army guy up north was in bed with his missus and woke up to strange sounds. He said the robber was a very tall man rummaging through his drawers. Well, the guy thought about his family and pounced...

...missed him. But the burglar got his car keys.

Chasing him outside nude, this army guy pounced again while the burglar was starting up the car; cunt pulled out a chiv, screwdriver, so army dude disarms him. The result is he accidentally breaks the bastards wrist and dislocates his shoulder.

The burglar took him to court (twice); first time the cunt didn't attend cos he was in prison for robbing someone else. Second time, the army dude attended and was let off cos the burglar (again) didn't attend. But the righteous man had to pay five grand in court fees.

WTF? This country...

His words: "I stood up for my wife and two kids, with an assailant in my room. But I had to pay. I might as well let the fucker take my car and be done with it, cos it would've cost me less!"

[BillyRay]

Dude would have had less of a hassle if he just likked the bastard...

[Mike70]

Chasing him outside nude, this army guy pounced again while the burglar was starting up the car; cunt pulled out a chiv, screwdriver, so army dude disarms him. The result is he accidentally breaks the bastards wrist and dislocates his shoulder.

The burglar took him to court (twice); first time the cunt didn't attend cos he was in prison for robbing someone else. Second time, the army dude attended and was let off cos the burglar (again) didn't attend. But the righteous man had to pay five grand in court fees.


ah, one of the reasons i love living in ohio is that our self-defense laws prohibit an intruder from suing you. the law here makes the presumption that anyone intruding in your home, business or car has some serious criminal intent. in cases where someone is in your home, you no longer are even required to prove that the person was a threat. it's a "your intruding in my house and that is your ass" kind of law. you can use any and all means, including deadly force, to stop the person. whether they are armed or not makes no difference whatsoever.

so, if you are engaged in a criminal act here and someone fucks you up, there is no recourse to civil court.

[Ghost Of War]

ah, one of the reasons i love living in ohio is that our self-defense laws prohibit an intruder from suing you. the law here makes the presumption that anyone intruding in your home, business or car has some serious criminal intent. in cases where someone is in your home, you no longer are even required to prove that the person was a threat. it's a "your intruding in my house and that is your ass" kind of law. you can use any and all means, including deadly force, to stop the person. whether they are armed or not makes no difference whatsoever.

so, if you are engaged in a criminal act here and someone fucks you up, there is no recourse to civil court.

Exactly how it should be. If some fucker is in my home without my permission, I'm not going to stop and ask him what his intentions are, I'm going to do what it takes to protect my family. If it costs me money or jail time, so be it. At least I've kept my family from harm.

[SymphonicX]

Right, I was listening on LBC about how some army guy up north was in bed with his missus and woke up to strange sounds. He said the robber was a very tall man rummaging through his drawers. Well, the guy thought about his family and pounced...

...missed him. But the burglar got his car keys.

Chasing him outside nude, this army guy pounced again while the burglar was starting up the car; cunt pulled out a chiv, screwdriver, so army dude disarms him. The result is he accidentally breaks the bastards wrist and dislocates his shoulder.

The burglar took him to court (twice); first time the cunt didn't attend cos he was in prison for robbing someone else. Second time, the army dude attended and was let off cos the burglar (again) didn't attend. But the righteous man had to pay five grand in court fees.

WTF? This country...

His words: "I stood up for my wife and two kids, with an assailant in my room. But I had to pay. I might as well let the fucker take my car and be done with it, cos it would've cost me less!"


Actually his last quote is probably true - although at that point I would have tried to keep my no claims bonus too.

Self defence is a grey area in the UK man, we all know this...its something that hasn't really been talked about properly. I can see a shift towards a more defensive attitude - but just like that guy who got brain damaged from a Cricket bat or the farmer who shotgunned a 16 year old kid who was robbing him - there comes a point beyond reasonable force - and for this guy, he's totally blurred that area.

However...the guy WAS stealing his car - maybe that's a good enough reason - I think that's the debate here:

Is saving your car/belongings a justified reason for causing GBH?

I think, morally yes. Legally, probably not. I would chase someone for my ipod, or my car or whatever...but when you've chased that person for your belongings you need to make a decision on just HOW you're going to get it back off them - breaking bones is usually a good method - but if you've broken someone's bones, regardless of a reason, you have still crossed a line.
The question is, is crossing that line OK?
Or should it ONLY be OK for non-insured items? (LOL)
or more realistically - should the law state you are better off letting them go?

The real issue, is where to draw the line. Say you've gotten the ipod/car back but to do so you needed to smash the guy's head in with an iron bar...would that be worth it? or justified? If not then we'd need a law system that reflected severity of "punishment" by civilians in the heat of the moment - when that punishment outweighs the crime then charges should be brought - but that's just a legal minefield...

I'll close on this (having brought nothing but my thoughts to the table) the first rule of self defence is this: if someone points a gun at you and demands your wallet, give them your wallet. Everything inside can be replaced. If it escalates then break their fuckin' eyeballs - but first and foremost, you're being robbed and their incentive is the money, not to take your life. So don't make it more unpredictable than need be.

[childofgilead]

As much as I loathe to admit it, I'm currently living with my girlfriend in West Virginia.

While Wv is the butt of alot of jokes, alot of which I make myself (just because I was born there doesn't mean I like it), it does have the Castle Law.

Mm..Castle Law.

[ProfessorChaos]

good points, symph, but did you catch the part about the burglar pulling out a screwdriver on the homeowner?

i'd be pretty upset if i caught some punk in my house and i had to chase him down cuz he had my car keys...but then once i tackled him and he pulled a screwdriver on me, i'd probably be downright furious and do the same thing.

and if i read correctly, capn mentioned something about the homeowner being in the military, and they train you to break arms and whatnot during close hand-to-hand combat when someone is doing shit like pulling knives(screwdrivers) on you.

[SymphonicX]

Yeah I think the army guy simply reacted out of instinct - and I guess the guy DID pull a weapon out on him, he made a defensive move and it was to the detriment of the car thief...

The question is, is your car/ipod/sony walkman worth chasing someone for, even if you're equipped to handle a person with a weapon? Should it just be left to the police? I don't think it should, if you have the chance to take them down...I think the population needs to enforce a bit of rule against crims and not leave it up to the police to do EVERYTHING...

[jded]

That is pretty messed up. Court fees for what, to sit there and wait for the bum to show up? No lawyer? Did you mean lawyer fees? If not, sounds like the justice system over there could care less and are willing to bilk an honest citizen whenever an incident like this arises.
Maybe their quite joyous underneath it all because it helps to pay a salary, or for who knows what else. This man was in protection mode and the other got what he deserved. But now the victim has been victimized by the system, because the (your) system is corrupt.

It sounds like giveth and taketh away. And it's all the same everywhere. Your taxes help pay for healthcare for everyone, no matter what, right? The robber will have his wrist and shoulder taken care of, and the money in the pot will pay for it. So the pot must be replenished. Thank you mister army guy up north.
Over here the insurance companies make sure your healthy enough and not a risk to their bottom line (scratch that, they've learned to just take your money anyway and make excuses later on of why you won't be covered) put your money in a pot and then let the doctor charge you a little more on top of that when you need something fixed, and that's if you have insurance.

Were just as fucked over here as you seem to be over there.

[Tricky]

I absolutely think people should be allowed to defend their property & loved ones without fear of prosecution for injuring the poor lamb who decided to break in!

The law in this country is really messed up though, take that high profile case thats been all over the news this week of those two 10/11 year old kids who tortured two other kids almost to death, as well as forcing them to sexually abuse each other. They've both been given 5 years for it, but the system will protect the little scumbags while the victims will be left struggling to pick up the pieces, which will probably have mentally scarred them well into adulthood if not forever. The scumbags will be given the best education money can buy while they are locked up, as well as adventure holidays & the chance to do things their victims will never get to do, and at the end of their sentences they will be given new identities & police protection for life, all at cost to the taxpayer, which obviously eventually will be paid for by their victims when they reach working age! the whole system stinks :mad:

I got the police involved following the beating I took from a bunch of scrotes on christmas eve, but so far ive only had one brief phonecall from them & they havent even taken a statement from me yet! I truly believe that the police wont find the group who did it, and I dont think they will even make much effort to do so, and even if they do nothing will be done about it. I'd rather catch up with the fucking shitbags myself when im not too drunk to fight back as I was at christmas, and give them a sound kicking by way of revenge, but then of course it would be me who found myself in the dock & the police or courts would be far more likely to dish out a harsh sentence for me for "taking the law into my own hands", the country is rotten!

[SymphonicX]

I absolutely think people should be allowed to defend their property & loved ones without fear of prosecution for injuring the poor lamb who decided to break in!

The law in this country is really messed up though, take that high profile case thats been all over the news this week of those two 10/11 year old kids who tortured two other kids almost to death, as well as forcing them to sexually abuse each other. They've both been given 5 years for it, but the system will protect the little scumbags while the victims will be left struggling to pick up the pieces, which will probably have mentally scarred them well into adulthood if not forever. The scumbags will be given the best education money can buy while they are locked up, as well as adventure holidays & the chance to do things their victims will never get to do, and at the end of their sentences they will be given new identities & police protection for life, all at cost to the taxpayer, which obviously eventually will be paid for by their victims when they reach working age! the whole system stinks :mad:


I know what you're saying but you're talking about two 11 year old animals here. Why did they do these things? Well you just have to look at the reports of their family lives to see why. The next five years this government needs to plough resources into changing these kid's behavioural patterns, their thought processes and their ability to deal with frustration. Simply putting them in a cell, letting them rot and then releasing them will not bring about a good kid.

I call them animals because they're too young to step outside themselves and see what they have done. They haven't developed a sense of empathy, or respect, and this lack of development comes from one place - the parents.

The fact is, these kids need to be away from their parents for as long as possible, they need rehabilitation, support and unfortunately for the emotional around us, nurturing. Simply spiting them, punishing them and then expecting them to be normal, law abiding adults when they are released is unfortunately a misguided approach and will only see two 16 year old kids released onto the streets with even more resentment fostered inside them for the rest of their lives.

Personally, in this case I think the parents need longer jail terms. They are the one's responsible for this. They have bred two little monsters with no sense of respect or love and that's because they've been shown neither themselves. These actions are learned responses from a dejected generation, and with no proper guidance, all I can say is those victims were lucky they didn't die out there. The very broken notion of our society is at fault here, and these kids had no concept of the pain and effect they have caused.

What do you think? Punish them until they learn their lesson, or punish the parents of these 11 year olds who made them this way, and help the kids as much as possible to see the damage they have done?

[MinionZombie]

Fucking pathetic. This shit needs to be sorted out pronto.

Quite frankly, if you break into a house, you deserve what you fucking get you bloody criminal.

After which point the normal legal system should take over, and charge the criminal git properly. None of this bullshit of charging the victim. Did they ask for their house to be burgled?

This sort of shit really pisses me off - as such, I'll stop writing as I'll just get all ranted up.

[Mike70]

Mm..Castle Law.

castle law does rock. it also makes more moral and legal sense. if you decide to break into someone's house or try and carjack them in a state with a castle law in place you are literally risking your life. i think the main distinction between castle law and more pansified versions of self-defense is that you no longer need to prove that the person was armed or a threat. the law now makes that presumption for you and it allows you to act in a manner that you see fit to remove the threat. let's face it: anyone who intrudes into your home while you are there has some serious criminal intentions. they have no business there and if it costs them their life, so be it. don't be a fucking criminal and you won't run risk of getting ventilated by a homeowner.

people engaged in violent criminal activity (yes, entering someone's home or car without permission is a violent action) deserve no protection from civil courts and zero sympathy.

[Tricky]

I know what you're saying but you're talking about two 11 year old animals here. Why did they do these things? Well you just have to look at the reports of their family lives to see why. The next five years this government needs to plough resources into changing these kid's behavioural patterns, their thought processes and their ability to deal with frustration. Simply putting them in a cell, letting them rot and then releasing them will not bring about a good kid.

I call them animals because they're too young to step outside themselves and see what they have done. They haven't developed a sense of empathy, or respect, and this lack of development comes from one place - the parents.

The fact is, these kids need to be away from their parents for as long as possible, they need rehabilitation, support and unfortunately for the emotional around us, nurturing. Simply spiting them, punishing them and then expecting them to be normal, law abiding adults when they are released is unfortunately a misguided approach and will only see two 16 year old kids released onto the streets with even more resentment fostered inside them for the rest of their lives.

Personally, in this case I think the parents need longer jail terms. They are the one's responsible for this. They have bred two little monsters with no sense of respect or love and that's because they've been shown neither themselves. These actions are learned responses from a dejected generation, and with no proper guidance, all I can say is those victims were lucky they didn't die out there. The very broken notion of our society is at fault here, and these kids had no concept of the pain and effect they have caused.

What do you think? Punish them until they learn their lesson, or punish the parents of these 11 year olds who made them this way, and help the kids as much as possible to see the damage they have done?

I say leave the little shitbags to rot, I dont believe people like them can ever be truly rehabilitated & be safe to be allowed back into society. Plenty of young tearaways who fight & cause trouble as youngsters turn out to be decent people, but what those two did goes way, way beyond that just the same as the two that murdered James Bulger all those years ago. I dont think my tax money should be going into treating them like they're special for the rest of their lives while the victims will suffer from it for the rest of theirs. yes their parents should be punished too, but regardless of that they knew what they were doing was wrong but went ahead & did it anyway, I quote from the trial


The attack ended when the younger brother said they had to go to meet their father.

Mr Campbell said: "(The older brother) replied 'One minute. I need to kill them both because they might just grass on us.'"

[Jeffery]

The convict should have died from lead poisoning. I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead ones. If you're going to break into someone's home, prepare to be killed on sight.

[capncnut]

I know what you're saying but you're talking about two 11 year old animals here. Why did they do these things? Well you just have to look at the reports of their family lives to see why. The next five years this government needs to plough resources into changing these kid's behavioural patterns, their thought processes and their ability to deal with frustration. Simply putting them in a cell, letting them rot and then releasing them will not bring about a good kid.
The two brothers were often made to fight each other, allowed to drink alcohol, smoke dad's pot, watch horror movies, pornos, and got the pleasure of watching dad molest and beat up mom, who is a junky. One night, the two kids saw dad pull out a knife on mom and threaten to slice her face up if she didn't behave herself. It's highly unlikely that these kids would turn out like little cherubs.


I say leave the little shitbags to rot, I dont believe people like them can ever be truly rehabilitated & be safe to be allowed back into society. Plenty of young tearaways who fight & cause trouble as youngsters turn out to be decent people, but what those two did goes way, way beyond that just the same as the two that murdered James Bulger all those years ago. I dont think my tax money should be going into treating them like they're special for the rest of their lives while the victims will suffer from it for the rest of theirs. yes their parents should be punished too, but regardless of that they knew what they were doing was wrong but went ahead & did it anyway, I quote from the trial
I agree and disagree. When you look at their home lives, they had no framework or structure, and they do deserve a chance. But they are kind of beyond it right now. Ten and eleven is the major turning point in a child's life and they will be detained and rehabilitated until they are young adults.

Oh, and everybody rattles on about Bulger's killers being rehabilitated. Only one turned out okay. The other has, unofficially reporting here, become a suicidal nervous wreck who's scared for his life.

[SRP76]

Regardless of any break-ins, they need to change the system so that in the event the person bringing the case does not show up in court, that person covers all court costs. They shouldn't be able to "oh, I'm going to sue you...ha-ha, just joking" and get the other person to foot the bill.

[blind2d]

Seriously! That just makes no sense that the VICTIM should have to pay all the money! Especially when its mere court costs, something completely irrelevant to the actual incident!