Miguels

[fartpants]

another one to get the ideas rolling, when miguel opened the gates and let the zeds in wat was he thinking, was he just trying to kill himself or was his intention to let the zeds get everyone in the base as well... if so why ??

considering he was having a relationship with Sarah it seems a bit off that he should put her in all that danger if he only meant to kill himself, but if suicide was his intention why not just shoot himself

the fact that he opens the gates and waits till the zeds are on him then lowers the elevator suggests to me that his intention was the obliteration of the bunker and everyone in it.

[krakenslayer]

another one to get the ideas rolling, when miguel opened the gates and let the zeds in wat was he thinking, was he just trying to kill himself or was his intention to let the zeds get everyone in the base as well... if so why ??

considering he was having a relationship with Sarah it seems a bit off that he should put her in all that danger if he only meant to kill himself, but if suicide was his intention why not just shoot himself

the fact that he opens the gates and waits till the zeds are on him then lowers the elevator suggests to me that his intention was the obliteration of the bunker and everyone in it.

It's difficult to say exactly, because he'd gone well-and-truly bananas by this point, but I'd compare it to suicides where people park their cars on train crossings in the hopes of taking some of the "cruel world" with them.

[capncnut]

He was just a device to make the ending of the film more explosive and gruesome. Shorry... :D

To answer it properly though, as far as he was concerned, he understood the situ and let 'em in to wipe out the men. He did overhear the action, after all.

[krakenslayer]

To answer it properly though, as far as he was concerned, he understood the situ and let 'em in to wipe out the men. He did overhear the action, after all.

Wow, actually... holy shit... I never thought of it like that but looking at it now, it's hard to see how I could have missed this possibility.

Could it be that Miguel's death was a deliberate act of heroism? It would also make sense in connection to his clutching the rosary and praying before the zombies take him. He death was a sacrifice. The survivors would probably never have escaped had Rhodes and his men not been busy with the elevator the zombies.

An excellent point Cap, you just revealed a whole subtext I'd never noticed before.

[fartpants]

trust you guys to get me thinking about things in a whole new way, keep the ideas coming in, just one thing.... i thought miguel was staying in John and Billys trailer after he was bit, so would he have heard anything that happened in the complex itself as i gather that the trailer was away from the main buildings...

[krakenslayer]

trust you guys to get me thinking about things in a whole new way, keep the ideas coming in, just one thing.... i thought miguel was staying in John and Billys trailer after he was bit, so would he have heard anything that happened in the complex itself as i gather that the trailer was away from the main buildings...

Capn means Miguel listened to Sarah, John and Billy talking about stealing the helicopter and he decided to create a diversion to help them/force their hand.

[fartpants]

Capn means Miguel listened to Sarah, John and Billy talking about stealing the helicopter and he decided to create a diversion to help them/force their hand.

ahhh i see wat your getting at

on a side note do you think miguel would have turned or do you think the amputation would have saved him ??

[Mike70]

another one to get the ideas rolling, when miguel opened the gates and let the zeds in wat was he thinking, was he just trying to kill himself or was his intention to let the zeds get everyone in the base as well... if so why ??

here is an excerpt of an interview with antone dileo (miguel) where he talks about his interpretation of that scene.


HW: Well, while we're on opinion and death... a lot of people, when they first see the movie, question when you go up and let the zombies in. They sit in awe, 'why did he do that?' Why do you think the character did that... I know what I think, but I want to know what you think.
Antone: Well, I'll tell you, but then you'll have to tell me what you think.
HW: Deal
Antone: Hmmm... it seems that, just like I said before - the very people that I'm trying to live with and survive with, have turned into the very thing we're trying to protect ourselves from. The spirituality and religionosity of that character realizes it is the end. It's like someone has to sacrifice themselves and bring this madness to a halt. That's pretty much why I let them in. I'm up to my ears. It's not really a personal suicide type thing, I bring them down for a reason. A lot of people might think it's vengeance and all that stuff, but it's not. I see the character from my point of view and I saw it as right, the correct to do that, because they have turned into very heartless, selfserving, and really not connected to what we are as human beings. What kind of souls are left that abuse each other in such hideous ways, as we see through the entire film. So I let them in and sacrificed myself for the - what I think - is the betterment of mankind in general. End this madness. Let it just cease. So what did you think?
HW: Actually very close to you. I felt that Miguel did it because the surviving humans had pretty much degraded themselves to being more dangerous to each other than the zombies were..
Antone: yeah, that's exactly right.
HW: With them being more dangerous than the zombies, these are not the people that should survive to continue the human race. So very similar to you
Antone: Right, but I'm also hearing that they're going to be shooting each other, my lover, and friends - as I'm lying there in this 'state' waiting to see if I'm going to become a zombie. So right. They're going about destroying each other and where do they think they're going to escape to? That's the laughable part. There's only so much gas a helicopter can hold. There's only so much distance you can go. And if you have no idea where you're going to set down... your helicopter, your body, your soul, everything is going to run out of gas.

this is a small part of much larger interview. i'm going to link the whole interview. you will be able to follow the links at the bottom to a whole series of long interviews with romero and several day cast members. they are well worth the time.

http://www.horror-web.com/interviews/antonedileo.html

[darth los]

That's actually a brilliant interpretation and something I never thought of before. Good find dude. :thumbsup:

:cool:

[Trin]

We had this discussion before, and it was a good one. It was the "Was Miguel a coward" thread or something.

I always saw Miguel's actions as a religious act, similar to what the interview states. Believing they are the last humans, and believing they've lost the humanity necessary to justify their place on earth, he lets the zombies in to cleanse the world of humans. I see it as acceptance of the will of God and a means of trying to make peace. Acknowledging that He brought this judgement upon us and we should accept it.

Of course, as a kid when I saw this originally, I thought, "What an idiot."

[Mike70]

We had this discussion before, and it was a good one. It was the "Was Miguel a coward" thread or something.

yep, about a year or so ago. i linked the same series of interviews in that thread.

on another note: i link those every so often because if you are a day fan, they really are golden.

edit: it was called "is miguel a fool" and it was over 2 years ago.

http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?t=8704&referrerid=286

[SRP76]

I don't buy the excuse making and "oh, there's a deep, powerful message" bullshit. Miguel was just a bitter little fuckup that knew his time was limited, so he wanted to take everyone else with him.

[krakenslayer]

I don't buy the excuse making and "oh, there's a deep, powerful message" bullshit. Miguel was just a bitter little fuckup that knew his time was limited, so he wanted to take everyone else with him.

The thing is, we know Romero likes the "'oh, there's a deep, powerful message' bullshit" as you call it so it's not unlikely that this was intentional.

[darth los]

I don't buy the excuse making and "oh, there's a deep, powerful message" bullshit. Miguel was just a bitter little fuckup that knew his time was limited, so he wanted to take everyone else with him.

You know, the thing I love about GAr's dead films is that he leaves so much to interpretation/imagination. There's nothing that can really refute what you posted.

This is the main reason why we go on for years pontificating on trivial things like this. If he would have spoon fed it to us there wouldn't be conversation like this one or just who were those "police" at the dock in dawn. :confused:

Great stuff.

:cool:

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:24 PM ----------


The thing is, we know Romero likes the "'oh, there's a deep, powerful message' bullshit"...


When we all know he really intended no such thing. :lol::lol:

Atleast not to the extent that people praise it. No one with that profound a thought process could be such a bad business man. :lol:

:cool:

[sandrock74]

I don't buy the excuse making and "oh, there's a deep, powerful message" bullshit. Miguel was just a bitter little fuckup that knew his time was limited, so he wanted to take everyone else with him.

I'm with you dude! I'll never buy into all this quasi-religious claptrap on Miguels part.

[krakenslayer]

I'm with you dude! I'll never buy into all this quasi-religious claptrap on Miguels part.

The fact that Miguel clutches his rosary beats, prays and "sacrifices" himself to the zombies alive disagrees with you. I originally thought the same as you guys but, now I think about it, he didn't need to do all that, if he was a coward he could have opened the gate, coaxed the zombies around him, pushed the button then eaten a bullet.

The story would have continued more or less the same if this had happened instead, so there was no narrative reason for Romero and DiLeo to play it like they did if the religious element was completely meaningless and superfluous.

[Philly_SWAT]

The fact that Miguel clutches his rosary beats, prays and "sacrifices" himself to the zombies alive disagrees with you. I originally thought the same as you guys but, now I think about it, he didn't need to do all that, if he was a coward he could have opened the gate, coaxed the zombies around him, pushed the button then eaten a bullet.

The story would have continued more or less the same if this had happened instead, so there was no narrative reason for Romero and DiLeo to play it like they did if the religious element was completely meaningless and superfluous.

This is not my original thought, but I dont remember where I heard it, so I can not give proper credit. But anyway, somehow in the past I read/heard/etc. that once Miguel was bit, but then amputated, he was kind of in a..."in-between" world between the living and the living dead. His living part wanted to get better and live a long and prosperous life, but his living-dead part wanted to kill the living and eat them, but he wasnt truly living anymore, yet nor was he a member of the living dead. So he succumbed to the living-dead side of him by letting the dead in the bunker to kill everyone else, but his living part felt guilty/sad, which is why he cluched the rosary beads and allowed himself to be killed by the true living dead.

[sandrock74]

The fact that Miguel clutches his rosary beats, prays and "sacrifices" himself to the zombies alive disagrees with you. I originally thought the same as you guys but, now I think about it, he didn't need to do all that, if he was a coward he could have opened the gate, coaxed the zombies around him, pushed the button then eaten a bullet.

The story would have continued more or less the same if this had happened instead, so there was no narrative reason for Romero and DiLeo to play it like they did if the religious element was completely meaningless and superfluous.

If anything, he was just trying to cover his ass with God, by praying and such AT THE LAST POSSIBLE SECOND. If he were truely so religious and all, he wouldn't have killed everyone else.

Period.

I still say he was just a cowardly screw-up.

[bassman]

I think it was just to progress the plot. But hey....that's just me.:p

[krakenslayer]

If anything, he was just trying to cover his ass with God, by praying and such AT THE LAST POSSIBLE SECOND. If he were truely so religious and all, he wouldn't have killed everyone else.

Period.

I still say he was just a cowardly screw-up.

Tell that to the Spanish Inquisition :p

The basic fact is, cowardly fuck up or not, in the character's head he did what he did because he thought it was right. People in real life (and in good fiction) don't just do stuff because they happen to arbitrarily fall into a category of coward, hero, lunatic, etc. The Spanish Inquisition didn't torture and kill people just because they were inherently moustache-curling baddies, but because they reasoned (wrongly) they were doing their religious duty. Psychopathy and simple greed aside, people who do bad things (especially suicidally bad things) usually do them because they are convinced that they are the right thing to do. The fact that they are wrong in this belief doesn't change the fact.

We're discussing why he made the "wrong" (possibly) choice, not what that choice makes him in your eyes.

[Trin]

I think it's fun to note that when I first watched Day when I was young I had this mentality:


I don't buy the excuse making and "oh, there's a deep, powerful message" bullshit. Miguel was just a bitter little fuckup that knew his time was limited, so he wanted to take everyone else with him.

And now that I'm old I have this one:


The thing is, we know Romero likes the "'oh, there's a deep, powerful message' bullshit" as you call it so it's not unlikely that this was intentional.

In fact, the whole Miguel scene ruined Day for me when I first saw it. I was like, "WTF?? No one would do that!!"

Now I feel like I get why the scene was done that way.

Maybe in another 20 years I'll see it a third way. :)

[Mike70]

what i find interesting about this thread is that we have the actor's own words on this subject, you know the guy whose job it is to interpret the character and bring it to life, and hardly anybody discusses it. i don't get that.

[darth los]

Psychopathy and simple greed aside, people who do bad things (especially suicidally bad things) usually do them because they are convinced that they are the right thing to do. The fact that they are wrong in this belief doesn't change the fact.



See: Muslim suicide bombers.

:cool:

[krakenslayer]

See: Muslim suicide bombers.

:cool:

Bingo!

Suicide bombers are murderous, self-destructive nutbags who reason that they are fighting for their way of life and their death will grant them a place in heaven. We know this is their reasoning.

The reason for Miguel's death/suicide isn't quite as clear, hence the thread, although it also seems to be religiously motivated, at least in part.

[sandrock74]

You know what I would LOVE to see? If someone can do a re-edit of the Miguel scene of him letting the zombies in, leading them to the platform, they start eating him and then he drops the controller or something comical like that. Then maybe the zombies just shamble off.

I'd laugh my ass off watching that! :lol:

[darth los]

You know what I would LOVE to see? If someone can do a re-edit of the Miguel scene of him letting the zombies in, leading them to the platform, they start eating him and then he drops the controller or something comical like that. Then maybe the zombies just shamble off.

I'd laugh my ass off watching that! :lol:


Or, they chewed the tendons in his hand off nescesary in order to operate the handbox. :lol:

Followed by the obligatory: Wah-Wah-WaAAAAAAAhh.

:cool:

[BillyRay]

Or on that note, when the Zeds are feasting on what's left of Steele, one looks to the other and says:

"Biggest piece of meat in this cave."

[sandrock74]

Or, they chewed the tendons in his hand off nescesary in order to operate the handbox. :lol:

Followed by the obligatory: Wah-Wah-WaAAAAAAAhh.

:cool:

Awesome! :lol:

[Trin]

I always loved it when Steele and Rickles find the elevator controls smashed. "We're trapped down here. Fix it. Fix it."

Like all those RVs got inside via the elevator? And they never figured out there was a ladder at the back of the zombie pen? It raises a lot of questions that they knew so little about the facility they were living in.

[darth los]

I always loved it when Steele and Rickles find the elevator controls smashed. "We're trapped down here. Fix it. Fix it."

Like all those RVs got inside via the elevator? And they never figured out there was a ladder at the back of the zombie pen? It raises a lot of questions that they knew so little about the facility they were living in.

The eggheads sure seemed to know about it though.

Perhaps that illustrates how hastily the operation was put together, that the military personnel didn't know the layout of the bunker that they were in.

:cool:

[krakenslayer]

The eggheads sure seemed to know about it though.

Perhaps that illustrates how hastily the operation was put together, that the military personnel didn't know the layout of the bunker that they were in.

:cool:

I think Rhodes and some of the others would have known about it. Steel and Rickles came across as dumb apes more interested in cracking jokes and harassing women than serious tactical thinking. On the other hand, Rhodes was a fox, and not in the sexual sense, that guy would know everything there was to know about the tunnel. The look of horror on his face suggests to me than he thinks he's gonna have to take his men through the corral just to get outside.

[Trin]

I'm imaging that every once in a while a zombie in the pen shows up holding a live grenade. And the military guys panic trying get the grenade.

Then one of them going, "Man, sometime we really gotta figure out where they're getting those grenades." And the other going, "You know, we really shoulda walked around these caves before we built a pen and shoved a bunch of em in there."

Then they crack a few jokes and go throw a grenade into the scientist's area for a laugh.

[MaximusIncredulous]

You know what I would LOVE to see? If someone can do a re-edit of the Miguel scene of him letting the zombies in, leading them to the platform, they start eating him and then he drops the controller or something comical like that. Then maybe the zombies just shamble off.

I'd laugh my ass off watching that! :lol:

I'd rather see a Benny Hill bit myself. Miggie lets 'em in and the zombs suddenly develop Dawn 04 abilities :stunned: and chase the one-armed bugger around and around. The End.