Shut Ins

[deadpunk]

Ben's character is called into question on a couple of the more active threads going in this forum, and it led me to wondering; Would I want to be shut in a house with Ben on the first night?

Maybe. But Honestly, Among Romero's characters, he wouldn't have been my first choice to try and secure that farmhouse with. (Can we please keep this on Romero characters? The idea of securing the farmhouse with Chuck Norris is such an epic win that it doesn't even need discussed :D) Among Romero's characters, I'd honestly want to be shut in with Peter.

[JDFP]

Who I would like to be shut in a house with on the first night...

Zombies outside trying to kill me and a frightened girl with me...

Hmm....

My vote is on Moynihan... and if anyone needs to ask why, you've been on the net too long. :elol:

Don't be afraid young lady, I'll be around to protect you. :D:D:D

http://www.cbc.ca/heartland/blog/images/michelle.jpg

j.p.

[bassman]

Peter sounds like the best choice. After him it would probably be Ben, but I would do the opposite of Cooper and agree to stay upstairs with the basement being the last resort. Or the attic.;)

And even though he dies in the film after losing it, I think Roger would be fun to have around. Up until he goes apeshit...

[Trin]

I weighted those who actually survived over those who did not.

Riley - Although we don't know what he was like early into it we know he has whatever it took to survive the long haul. Both the physcial and mental aspects of it. He's a crack shot who protects friends, strangers, and even enemies, he's very intelligent, and can build Dead Reckoning in the midst of an outbreak ala the A-Team.

John - He is big and strong and not prone to taking risks, yet he'll opt to protect his friends in a pinch. He can fly a chopper and is good enough with guns. His basic mentality is to find a place and kick back.

Peter - Tons of skills, cool head, and a heroic, protecting personality.

Honorable mentions:

Roger - Yeah, the guy did flake out, but up to that point he was second only to Peter.

Cholo - The guy had survival skills. Him letting his defenses down was more contrived than character. Given the timelines it's possible he survived longer than Peter or John. He has a little bit of an "every man for himself" mentality, but you never see him screw the people who are close to him.

[AcesandEights]

Peter is the winner for me, followed by Riley (good call, Trin) and fixit/handy men like McDermott & John (capable/skilled, good/decent with guns but a little hard to motivate) and finally by smart/capable pieces of ass like Sarah or Slack.

I also think Roger is waaaay too risky to have along. Talk about overrated :p

[Trin]

John (capable/skilled, good/decent with guns but a little hard to motivate) and finally by smart/capable pieces of ass like Sarah or Slack.
I think John was easy to motivate if you put something rationale in front of him.

I would never ever have Slack. Remember when she was driving the car in the wasteland? And she decided to cut the wheels hard, hit the curb, and slam up the hill? What kind of idiot bashes year's old tires against a curb and starts yardfarming up a hill? Can you say flat tire in the wasteland? There was no AAA out there. Or when she started shooting the miniguns at Riley on the bridge? Holy cow. She's an idiot and will get you killed. Take a magazine along if you need the only other thing she offers. Or take Pretty Boy. Sarah's fine. Heck, I'd have Barbra first.


I also think Roger is waaaay too risky to have along. Talk about overrated :pYeah, in retrospect I think I agree with this. If he wasn't spoon in the ass (which we know he was toward the end) he was way overconfident.

[SRP76]

I'll pick Rhodes. He's the only one without the stupid little morality issues about the dead; he will destroy them without hesitation. He also knows what he's doing.

The only problem he had was being in a retarded "keep zombies around and cater to scientists" situation. In a regular Night or Dawn scenario, he'd have been perfect.

[DubiousComforts]

He's the only one without the stupid little morality issues about the dead; he will destroy them without hesitation. He also knows what he's doing.
If that's your only criteria, go with Ben. He unflinchingly killed more dead with his bare hands than Rhodes did throughout an entire film, and he even shot himself a real live white guy for good measure.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2-hmjgIlh64/SqPxjejtZ0I/AAAAAAAAATE/OgakkiqE4FA/s400/Ben.gif
"You can be the boss down there... in HELL, Cooper!"

Hey, why not just team-up with Wooley and let him go apeshit. No doubt he would have single-handedly cleaned up all of Pennsylvania if Roger and Peter hadn't butt in.

http://www.filmdope.com/Gallery/ActorsB/54019-4472.gif
"Shit. man, this iz better than I got!"

[Trin]

I'll pick Rhodes. He's the only one without the stupid little morality issues about the dead; he will destroy them without hesitation. He also knows what he's doing.

The only problem he had was being in a retarded "keep zombies around and cater to scientists" situation. In a regular Night or Dawn scenario, he'd have been perfect.
He did point a gun at one of his men and order him to shoot the only woman known to be alive on the planet.

[darth los]

Roger - Yeah, the guy did flake out, but up to that point he was second only to Peter.

Yeah, but look at the size of him. If he's second only to Peter then pound for pound he has to be tops.

:cool:

[Philly_SWAT]

I think that the best answer to this question depends on the personality type of the person answering it. I tend to be strong willed, and at least in my opinion, fairly intelligent and capable. I would have a natural desire to be a (the) leader in a situation like that. Therefore, someone strong willed like Ben, I am not sure how well we would get along as total strangers thrown together like that. Peter was stronng willed as well, but did not seem to "need" the leadership position in the same way that Ben seemed to...Peter just naturally assumed a leadership position without having to throw his weight around. The handyman/technology type such as McDermott would be extremely valuable long term, probably not so much on night one in the farmhouse. If I thought I would die no matter what, then the blond chick from Diary might be the best choice. But to try to answer the question I guess I would be torn between Roger and Peter. Assuming he didnt go apeshit, maybe Roger cuz he would be more likely to follow my lead than Peter.

[MaximusIncredulous]

I'll go with either Stephen or John. They could fly helicopters, wheeee. To hell with the farmhouse.

[sandrock74]

Peter and Riley would be my choices. They both seemed to be the best all around types in the movies. I guess I would serve as the comedy relief.

[blind2d]

Pretty Boy or Sarah. Or Fran. She'd be fun to teach stuff to. Like... helicopters... and giving birth. Heck, I'll only take Fran if she's not pregnant. That'd just be too much hassle. Roger would be fun, and Peter would be perfect, but... I am heterosexual, so... Sarah.

[Trin]

I'm going to second my vote for John. Note that when Sarah is being told to sit down or she'll be shot, John reaches for his gun. The guy will go along with a plan and he'll defend you, and if you notice in the caves he's a crack shot.

[krakenslayer]

John would be good to have around but I fear he would quickly get on my tits with his Christian fundamentalist anti-science rants. Him calling the zombie plague a punishment from God is a little too close to Pat Robertson blaming the earthquake on the sins of the Haitians for my liking.

He's a good guy at heart, tough without a cruel bone in his body, but I would be worried about his influence on the next generation of survivors: teaching the children of the holocaust "to never to go down there and dig those records up" sounds to me like a one-way ticket to a new dark age.

[deadpunk]

Riley seems to be getting more than a few nods. I rewatched Land a few nights ago, and here is a short list of why I till say NO.

1. While I have no doubt Riley could help me survive the first night, I think he would get on my nerves fairly quick. The guy hands out righteous indignation like it's going out of style. Meanwhile, back on the farm...

2. Riley builds a huge, mobile weapon for the one guy he admits is abusing total power, and then plans to take the money and run? And his retirement plan feaures turning over the keys to a guy he doesn't trust, (one who later steals Dead Reckoning with the intent to blow up the entire city) in the place?

The guy might be pulling retards out of fires, saving hookers, and stealing anti-biotics for one sick kid, but in the big picture, he seems pretty willing to sell the whole damned place down river and move on.

Add in the fact that the guy doesn't do anything about Cholo until he's been arrested and bribed...

To be honest, I would never assume that Riley had my back 100%. Not unless it suited his own best interests, anyway.

[Debbieangel]

We all hate Cooper but I see some value in him, he thought about getting where it's safe all the time. What do you think would have happened if Cooper and Ben quieted down and talked like civil human beings trying to survive? I think they would have had a good plan if they would have got together. Cooper had a good idea to go in the basement afterall, even Ben said so near the end. In both the '68 and '90's Night Ben ended up in the basement, bad idea I think not! Myself I would go up to the attic til the zombies scattered to the winds.
I am rambling so, I will make my point...Cooper might be ok if you could reason with him.
Deadpunk, you didn't say we had to choose just one person to pair up with so, I would pick all of them that have been mentioned.
Really, we are talking about an acopalypse, I would think the living would huddle together as much as possible against the dead walking. Atleast for awhile.

[Rancid Carcass]

I’ve gone for a slightly more unconventional list.

Charlie - probably the best shot in the whole series, he’s so cool under pressure that he wouldn’t waste a single bullet.

Pillsbury - Lets face it, you’re less likely to get into trouble with other survivors with a guy built like a tank stood behind you.

Andrew Maxwell - He may be a booze hound but he can handle himself and will get his hands dirty - not too shabby with a bow and arrow either.

Steele - In the right company I think he would be a pretty decent guy. He’d stand his ground in a firefight.

I’d round out the group with Peter, Riley and John.

And if there’s room: McDermott, Slack and Roger - of course, the whirly-bird can’t hold us all...

[fulci fan]

I'll pick Rhodes. He's the only one without the stupid little morality issues about the dead; he will destroy them without hesitation. He also knows what he's doing.

The only problem he had was being in a retarded "keep zombies around and cater to scientists" situation. In a regular Night or Dawn scenario, he'd have been perfect.

I agree. Rhodes would be great and he is one of my favorite characters, but he was a racist.

I would want to be with all the black men in George Romero's films. Except for Big Daddy. :)

I include Tony Todd's "Ben" character too.

[deadpunk]

Deadpunk, you didn't say we had to choose just one person to pair up with so, I would pick all of them that have been mentioned.
Really, we are talking about an acopalypse, I would think the living would huddle together as much as possible against the dead walking. At least for awhile.

Fair enough, Debbie. However...

While I could see the merits in being part of a small group (around 5-7 people), anything larger would be an issue for me.

[Trin]

@Deadpunk - Good points about Riley. I didn't mind the righteous indignation. Most of the time I thought he was hitting the nail on the head. Where I got irritated was his lack of action. The guy had all the weapons and all the respect. He could've toppled Kaufman without firing a shot. Why he was portrayed as impotent is beyond me. I think a lot of those problems were systemic to the Land story writing. You could make similar arguments for Mulligan, or Slack, or anyone. The fact that a group of zombies invaded and killed Kaufman pretty much means anyone could've.

On a side note I've always wondered whether Riley was going to leave Charlie behind when he tells Charlie to go ahead cause he needs to see a man about a car. It kinda seemed like he was preparing to drive off in the car and didn't want Charlie along.


2. Riley builds a huge, mobile weapon for the one guy he admits is abusing total power, and then plans to take the money and run?
It's hard to believe that Kaufman was abusing his power before he had Dead Reckoning. It's hard to believe he had power to abuse at all. He was probably just a leader-type who took charge in the mayhem. The power abuse came later.

What do you mean by take the money and run? Riley planned to buy a car and drive away. He wasn't planning to take anything of anyone else's. When the time came to leave he didn't take money, just DR.


And his retirement plan feaures turning over the keys to a guy he doesn't trust, (one who later steals Dead Reckoning with the intent to blow up the entire city) in the place?
I don't think you can view Riley's retirement plan in light of what Cholo did later in the movie. I also don't think you can assume Riley didn't trust Cholo. He did walk up to DR while Cholo had guns pointing at him.

A better point along the same lines would be this - why did Riley drive off in DR when the city was overrun with zombies, the military decimated, the leaders dead, and the few survivors wandering the streets? Was he condemning the rest of the city to death? Did he just not care? Did he think Mulligan would take over and everything would be fine? Did he think the zombie threat was no more since Big Daddy was leaving? I had a hard time with Riley's character given the ending.


Add in the fact that the guy doesn't do anything about Cholo until he's been arrested and bribed...
I'm not sure you could contend that Cholo was a problem prior to that. He did his job. When he got the kid killed Riley ripped him a new one for it, which you have noted under too much righteous indignation. What should he have done?

I still go with Riley, good and bad. The dude packed all the babes in a gun laden RV and drove off. There's no good argument against that.

[deadpunk]

On a side note I've always wondered whether Riley was going to leave Charlie behind when he tells Charlie to go ahead cause he needs to see a man about a car. It kinda seemed like he was preparing to drive off in the car and didn't want Charlie along.

My general feeling on this is that he was content to either take Charlie along or leave him.



It's hard to believe that Kaufman was abusing his power before he had Dead Reckoning. It's hard to believe he had power to abuse at all. He was probably just a leader-type who took charge in the mayhem. The power abuse came later.

Disagree. I think Kaufman likely used under-handed tactics (including murder) from the get-go to secure his position as top dog. If we examine Kaufman, compared to say, Mulligan, there seems to be no other explaination for his ascent to the proverbial throne. Guy sure didn't have the charisma to pull it off.

I would even wager, heavily, that the Green wasn't even initiallyt Kaufman's idea and that he stole the entire concept, likely killing off any competitors.



What do you mean by take the money and run? Riley planned to buy a car and drive away. He wasn't planning to take anything of anyone else's. When the time came to leave he didn't take money, just DR.

Riley built DR for Kaufman. I'm sure this wasn't done for free. He clearly used the proceeds to buy his car. So, his plan consisted of turning over DR (a massive weapon) to people that clearly shouldn't be entrusted with it and heading north.

Since Riley isn't portrayed as much ofan optimist, we can't assume he hope Kaufman would see the light and not further abuse his power (which he was clearly doing, at least by the time Riley was ready to hand over DR). Which leads me to believe the dude was simply apathetic to what transpired in the Green after he split the scene.



I don't think you can view Riley's retirement plan in light of what Cholo did later in the movie. I also don't think you can assume Riley didn't trust Cholo. He did walk up to DR while Cholo had guns pointing at him.

I'm not sure you could contend that Cholo was a problem prior to that. He did his job. When he got the kid killed Riley ripped him a new one for it, which you have noted under too much righteous indignation. What should he have done?

This obviously wasn't the first time Cholo had pulled some loose cannon move that got someone killed. I think it goes against his moral fiber for Riley's character to hand over DR to Cholo (or Kaufman for that matter). What would have made sense was for Riley to stick around until he could have chosen a replacement that met his personal standard.

And, as I recall, Cholo might have had guns trained on Riley, but Riley had a few folks in the shadows and the remote to DR in his coat pocket. ;) He was banking on shutting down DR and bargaining with Cholo, IMHO.



A better point along the same lines would be this - why did Riley drive off in DR when the city was overrun with zombies, the military decimated, the leaders dead, and the few survivors wandering the streets? Was he condemning the rest of the city to death? Did he just not care? Did he think Mulligan would take over and everything would be fine? Did he think the zombie threat was no more since Big Daddy was leaving? I had a hard time with Riley's character given the ending.

Let's remember that Riley doesn't know that Kaufman is dead at this point. In fact, no one does. His attitude at this point still has to be; Get the fuck out of Dodge while the getting is good. He might have DR, but Kaufman might still be alive, and might still have an army.



I still go with Riley, good and bad.

My ultimate problem with Riley is in his character development. For a guy whose lines consistantly display an individual seated on a high horse, his overall actions go against the grain.

The 'hero' of the piece shouldn't need spurred into action each and everytime...

[AcesandEights]

@Deadpunk - Good points about Riley. I didn't mind the righteous indignation. Most of the time I thought he was hitting the nail on the head. Where I got irritated was his lack of action. The guy had all the weapons and all the respect. He could've toppled Kaufman without firing a shot. Why he was portrayed as impotent is beyond me.

It's not too hard to see that in other people though. Most people have the power to make positive changes in their life and choose not to. Was this purposeful on Romero's part?


I think a lot of those problems were systemic to the Land story writing.
You're probably correct, not done on purpose.

[Trin]

If we examine Kaufman, compared to say, Mulligan, there seems to be no other explaination for his ascent to the proverbial throne.
I thought from Kaufman's "I have the responsibility" lecture that we could deduce he was pretty much on the throne from the beginning. He had the safe place, paid the guards, gave the people things to do, etc. There was no ascent as such. It was more than no one had knocked him off as yet.


Riley built DR for Kaufman. I'm sure this wasn't done for free. He clearly used the proceeds to buy his car.
I'm sure Riley was on Kaufman's payroll just like Cholo was. And maybe for a while he believed the money meant something. But we know Kaufman didn't let Riley buy the car just like we know Kaufman didn't let Cholo buy his place in the Green. Neither of those guys was ever going to see a dime of money that could be used to actually change their situation. They could buy enough food to live, women and gambling to remain happy enough, but no cars, guns, etc. And Riley figured it out and decided to get out.


So, his plan consisted of turning over DR (a massive weapon) to people that clearly shouldn't be entrusted with it and heading north.

Since Riley isn't portrayed as much ofan optimist, we can't assume he hope Kaufman would see the light and not further abuse his power (which he was clearly doing, at least by the time Riley was ready to hand over DR). Which leads me to believe the dude was simply apathetic to what transpired in the Green after he split the scene.
Yeah, I'd agree with that. Riley was checked out on what happened at the Green. I think he felt like he couldn't change it for whatever reason and he couldn't deal with watching it anymore. He didn't really have anyone there he cared about overly much, so no real motivation to risk himself. His only option was to leave.


I think it goes against his moral fiber for Riley's character to hand over DR to Cholo (or Kaufman for that matter). What would have made sense was for Riley to stick around until he could have chosen a replacement that met his personal standard.
How do we know Riley didn't stick it out for a really long time doing just that? At what point does he realize that his personal standard is meaningless when there's not enough good in the place to defend?


Let's remember that Riley doesn't know that Kaufman is dead at this point. In fact, no one does. His attitude at this point still has to be; Get the fuck out of Dodge while the getting is good. He might have DR, but Kaufman might still be alive, and might still have an army.
That's true. But Riley also saw Mulligan raising an army to take Kaufman down and make the Green "What they always wanted it to be". According to Kaufman he could send an army after DR and they'd all end up in body bags. Thus DR would've virtually assured Mulligan's success. And still Riley drove DR off and abandoned him.

It's just odd. He could've at least made sure the remaining people were safe first. And what would stop the people from arguing that DR really belonged to all of them? At some point they're going to wake up and realize that Riley drove off in public property and they have no way to gather food.

My point is that for all of Riley's moral fiber that should keep him from turning it over to Cholo, it really should've kept him from driving off in it.


For a guy whose lines consistantly display an individual seated on a high horse, his overall actions go against the grain.

The 'hero' of the piece shouldn't need spurred into action each and everytime...
That's hard to argue. The best I can say is that the guy had little or no support around him. The other scavengers were mercenaries. Charlie was great (my fav character in Land) but he was a total follower. His boss was a despot. By and large the street people were gambling, whoring, and excess driven. Who did Riley really have worth standing up for? When the kid dies at the beginning absolutely no one cares except Riley. Now mulitply that attitude across months and years. At some point even the best hero stops acting.

[deadpunk]

I thought from Kaufman's "I have the responsibility" lecture that we could deduce he was pretty much on the throne from the beginning. He had the safe place, paid the guards, gave the people things to do, etc. There was no ascent as such. It was more than no one had knocked him off as yet.

Point being though, there had to be a beginning. The guy wasn't in charge before the rise. If he had been, he would have held a political title that his ego wouldn't have allowed him to ever drop. People would have been calling him Mayor or Senator... Mister just wouldn't have cut it ever again for an egomaniac like Kaufman.

At some point, there had to be a decision to either place someone in charge, or Kaufman seized an opportunity and wrestled control. Either way indicates an ascent of some type.

While I'm certain there was an assload of propaganda on Kaufman's part, again...I just really didn't get the vibe that he had the charisma to pull off winning people over.



I'm sure Riley was on Kaufman's payroll just like Cholo was. And maybe for a while he believed the money meant something. But we know Kaufman didn't let Riley buy the car just like we know Kaufman didn't let Cholo buy his place in the Green. Neither of those guys was ever going to see a dime of money that could be used to actually change their situation. They could buy enough food to live, women and gambling to remain happy enough, but no cars, guns, etc. And Riley figured it out and decided to get out.

I'd theorize that Riley understood that for a very long time and cached his earnings from Kaufman until he had enough to facilitate his escape. Riley states that he doesn't drink. He makes his opinions on gambling pretty clear... so, if he wasn't spending his money on the excess, what else would he be doing with it?



How do we know Riley didn't stick it out for a really long time doing just that? At what point does he realize that his personal standard is meaningless when there's not enough good in the place to defend?

Fair enough. And I'm sure that was his plan as he saved for the car. Yet, when he was ready to boogie, he seemed a lot less selective with whom he passed the torch on to.



That's true. But Riley also saw Mulligan raising an army to take Kaufman down and make the Green "What they always wanted it to be". According to Kaufman he could send an army after DR and they'd all end up in body bags. Thus DR would've virtually assured Mulligan's success. And still Riley drove DR off and abandoned him.

It's just odd. He could've at least made sure the remaining people were safe first. And what would stop the people from arguing that DR really belonged to all of them? At some point they're going to wake up and realize that Riley drove off in public property and they have no way to gather food.

My point is that for all of Riley's moral fiber that should keep him from turning it over to Cholo, it really should've kept him from driving off in it.

I'd say that was an exaggeration on Kaufman's part. Obviously, DR would kill a good number of people, but it would eventually run out of ammo and fuel. Kaufman needed it brought down quickly.

I like to think this is the part where Riley realizes that he is the only mofo left that has shown the responsibility it takes to own such firepower ... I like to think it, but I know it isn't so.



That's hard to argue. The best I can say is that the guy had little or no support around him. The other scavengers were mercenaries. Charlie was great (my fav character in Land) but he was a total follower. His boss was a despot. By and large the street people were gambling, whoring, and excess driven. Who did Riley really have worth standing up for? When the kid dies at the beginning absolutely no one cares except Riley. Now mulitply that attitude across months and years. At some point even the best hero stops acting.

Charlie was easily the best (and most defined) character in Land.

Riley is just too much of a flip-flopper for me. He's determined to do the right thing one minute, then decides on theselfish or easy route the next.

[Trin]

Point being though, there had to be a beginning. The guy wasn't in charge before the rise. If he had been, he would have held a political title that his ego wouldn't have allowed him to ever drop. People would have been calling him Mayor or Senator... Mister just wouldn't have cut it ever again for an egomaniac like Kaufman.

At some point, there had to be a decision to either place someone in charge, or Kaufman seized an opportunity and wrestled control. Either way indicates an ascent of some type.
Well, not necessarily. Say Kaufman was a businessman who owned a chunk of the real estate in the area pre-outbreak. The outbreak occurs and he buttons down his building and the surrounding area. He has a whole tower full of employees and private security who are more than happy to remain loyal for the option of staying safely inside. Society falls around them and stragglers want into his little safe zone. He's still running it like a business with himself in charge and a board of directors, etc. A shanty-town grows up around the tower and viola - Fiddler's Green is open for business with Kaufman running the show.


I'd theorize that Riley understood that for a very long time and cached his earnings from Kaufman until he had enough to facilitate his escape. Riley states that he doesn't drink. He makes his opinions on gambling pretty clear... so, if he wasn't spending his money on the excess, what else would he be doing with it?
Just like Cholo, Riley had a fortune in the Bank of K of money that won't spend. The difference is, unlike Cholo, Riley had no illusions about what that money would do for him outside their little micro-economy. He never tried to run off with bags of it. His fallacy was thinking that Kaufman's influence didn't extend to the garage and Chihuahua.


Yet, when he was ready to boogie, he seemed a lot less selective with whom he passed the torch on to.
I'd agree with that. I'd argue that he was reasonably comfortable with Cholo prior to that night, but after the kid getting killed incident he had concerns... concerns that didn't stop him at all cause he was mentally already gone.


Riley is just too much of a flip-flopper for me. He's determined to do the right thing one minute, then decides on theselfish or easy route the next.
I cannot deny the truth of that statement. I just like to think his character inconsistencies were storytelling problems and not intentional character flaws.

[deadpunk]

Well, not necessarily. Say Kaufman was a businessman who owned a chunk of the real estate in the area pre-outbreak. The outbreak occurs and he buttons down his building and the surrounding area. He has a whole tower full of employees and private security who are more than happy to remain loyal for the option of staying safely inside. Society falls around them and stragglers want into his little safe zone. He's still running it like a business with himself in charge and a board of directors, etc. A shanty-town grows up around the tower and viola - Fiddler's Green is open for business with Kaufman running the show.

Still disagree. In your scenario, Kaufman's guards would almost have had to have been armed to help him seize control and maintain it through the first bad decision he made. As a businessman, he would have likely been unarmed himself, at first. I can't help wonder if Kaufman had the charisma to maintain the loyalty of armed men in a situation as severe as the rising of the dead.

It's likely that they would continue in their duties at first, following a chain of command. But, during an extended shutdown? I think a chain of command would break down rapidly in this situation. (this of course, has always been one of the greatest divides in the debates here; continued society or mass chaos controlled by force?)



Just like Cholo, Riley had a fortune in the Bank of K of money that won't spend. The difference is, unlike Cholo, Riley had no illusions about what that money would do for him outside their little micro-economy. He never tried to run off with bags of it. His fallacy was thinking that Kaufman's influence didn't extend to the garage and Chihuahua.

I bet that money could be spent in the Green. Enough to lay away a car and first supplies, anyway. Which is what I meant when I initially stated "Take the money and run".

I think Riley was more than aware of Kaufman's influence. I honestly think he was just naive enough to believe he had reached his usefulness to Kaufman and would be allowed to leave.

Think on this: Kaufman might be abusing his power, but even so, why would he waste the energy to keep people hostage in the city? It appeared to me that people were already holding themselves psychologically hostage without the need for force. No one was allowed to go armed, we see people constantly getting patted down. Why would Kaufman push the issue to keep people in, when he new they poor were always on the verge of rioting? If Riley really believe that Kaufman would be satisfied that he was done with him after receiving DR, (he would be a giant fool BUT) he might really believ Kaufman wouldn't stress his leaving too hard.

Riley's attitude seemed to suggest he only wanted to get out before anyone tried to persuade him to stay, he didn't seem overly concerned that he would be forced to stay. If he had thought that, he would have split in the midst of a scavenging mission while Cholo and the rest of the rednecks were busy looting a town. Trying to leave from inside the Green suggests he really thought he was free to go.



I'd agree with that. I'd argue that he was reasonably comfortable with Cholo prior to that night, but after the kid getting killed incident he had concerns... concerns that didn't stop him at all cause he was mentally already gone.


I don't know. Riley gives Cholo a pretty hefty reminder that he wants everyone going home tonight, before they roll into Union Town. I got the impression from Cholo's reaction that it wasn't the first time he'd heard that particular speech and ignored it.

I got the vibe that Riley was just as happy to be done with Cholo as he was with scavenging, in general. They reminded me of those two co-workers that always strain to be civil and cause eveyone else in the room to feel awkward :)



I cannot deny the truth of that statement. I just like to think his character inconsistencies were storytelling problems and not intentional character flaws.

And here's another one... Why doesn't Riley dress down Cholo for being ignorant to Charlie outside of Union Town, when he's fully prepared to go toe-to-toe with one of Kaufman's guards for a similar offense (as they're first gearing up to go after DR)?

[Thorn]

Peter first, and then Riley.

If we are talking about that first night and a siege situation. Not a flee for safety scenario in which case a chopper pilot would be great to have around.

I go with this order because Peter seems fun and flexible enough to get the job done without being too alpha. He is a natural leader and I feel I am too. I also feel I would have no trouble taking a backseat to him on issues he knows more about than I, and I also feel he would be open enough to logic and communication if presented right.

I like Riley, but I think he is a bit jaded, he does care about people and he does the right thing most of the time.. except for example leaving the Green to fend for itself and rebuild. Were all the zombies gone? Would they be safe? I personally would have stuck around to make sure things got off and running again. He was driven to flee, to get out, to go North. It was that single minded focus that I feel is a flaw that would be a detriment in a first night scenario. He has the skills with a gun, the level head, and tactics. He is not very personable most of the time he is jaded and scarred. He is also as I said far too focused on his own goal.

Ben likewise would be a horrible choice for me, he was far too alpha and closed off. Now maybe a lot of that was stress, maybe a lot of what we saw was because of him dealing with people around him. I mean let's face it when Cooper showed up Ben was already upset. He left a girl to die, they holed up in the basement, and were confrontational and adversarial the entire time. Cooper brought out the worst in Ben in my opinion.

[bassman]

I would rather be shut in with Bub and Big Daddy. Just be nice to them and they could call off the other zombies for ya.:cool:

[darth los]

I would rather be shut in with Bub and Big Daddy. Just be nice to them and they could call off the other zombies for ya.:cool:

Sounds good until you run out of food for them...

Then they'll both probably pop a cap in dat ass. :lol:

:cool:

[deadpunk]

Peter first, and then Riley.

If we are talking about that first night and a siege situation. Not a flee for safety scenario in which case a chopper pilot would be great to have around.

I go with this order because Peter seems fun and flexible enough to get the job done without being too alpha. He is a natural leader and I feel I am too. I also feel I would have no trouble taking a backseat to him on issues he knows more about than I, and I also feel he would be open enough to logic and communication if presented right.

Agreed.



I like Riley, but I think he is a bit jaded, he does care about people and he does the right thing most of the time.. except for example leaving the Green to fend for itself and rebuild. Were all the zombies gone? Would they be safe? I personally would have stuck around to make sure things got off and running again. He was driven to flee, to get out, to go North. It was that single minded focus that I feel is a flaw that would be a detriment in a first night scenario. He has the skills with a gun, the level head, and tactics. He is not very personable most of the time he is jaded and scarred. He is also as I said far too focused on his own goal.

Also agree...Trin and I have been flogging this horse back to life. (Once it rises, I'm sure we'll have a discussion over whether it should shamble or run ;))

Riley would be a good technical choice. The dude absolutely had what it took to survive long term. However, he was just way too focused on himself and his own goals. He also spends a good deal of his time trying to clean up after himself.

Riley would make a better follower than a leader, if he could manage to knock that gigantic chip off his shoulder and understand that the world is different than it used to be, and not apt to change back any time soon.



Ben likewise would be a horrible choice for me, he was far too alpha and closed off. Now maybe a lot of that was stress, maybe a lot of what we saw was because of him dealing with people around him. I mean let's face it when Cooper showed up Ben was already upset. He left a girl to die, they holed up in the basement, and were confrontational and adversarial the entire time. Cooper brought out the worst in Ben in my opinion.

Unfortunately, in order to survive the first night, you're going to need to be equipped to deal with stress. Ben really had the tools for the job, he just didn't have the inner strength to keep all of the outside factors at bay and remain focused on the task at hand.

[Thorn]

great points Deadpunk, and I just finished the rest of the thread and see that you and T discussed at length a lot of the points I touched on briefly. Really great reading.

[Yojimbo]

Charlie - probably the best shot in the whole series, he’s so cool under pressure that he wouldn’t waste a single bullet.





Agreed. Rather have Charlie on my team than Ben any day. But I also agree wih Debbie:

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 PM ----------


Cooper might be ok if you could reason with him.


After all, the cellar was, with hindsight, the safest place to be. Yeah, he had his defects, but overall I think that he would be a team player in order to ensure the protection of his daughter.

[rongravy]

I would never ever have Slack. Remember when she was driving the car in the wasteland? And she decided to cut the wheels hard, hit the curb, and slam up the hill? What kind of idiot bashes year's old tires against a curb and starts yardfarming up a hill? Can you say flat tire in the wasteland? There was no AAA out there. Or when she started shooting the miniguns at Riley on the bridge? Holy cow. She's an idiot and will get you killed. Take a magazine along if you need the only other thing she offers.


I'll take Slack then. I just won't let her drive, and the first time she nearly kills me she gets a boot up her ass. Either that or I always stay behind and "guard" her rear. :lol:
I think Asia is a beautiful woman. I will need her to repopulate. I don't want a bunch of little magazines running around...

Or maybe Rickles and Steele. Those guys would probably have me cracking up.
So there are my choices: a hottie that will keep me too weak in the knees to get away or two goofballs who'll have me laughing so hard I can't hear a zombie shambling towards me. What's a poor guy to do?:annoyed:

[Trin]

Lol - I'm still a couple pages back...


I can't help wonder if Kaufman had the charisma to maintain the loyalty of armed men in a situation as severe as the rising of the dead.
He says he set the place up and paid the people who protect it. So he never earned their loyalty - he bought it. All he really has to do is keep the luxuries flowing to the people who keep him in power.

If you look around the world at nations ruled by despots, few of them have the love of the people. What they have is a core group living the high life willing to ignore the fact that the rest are downtrodden. Keeping Kaufman in power is a group effort by those who would suffer from sharing the resources equally, or worse, letting a guy like Mulligan take over. You know Mulligan wouldn't be too kind to the people who had been enabling Kaufman for years. There are a lot of people who have a vested interest in keeping Kaufman on top.


Riley's attitude seemed to suggest he only wanted to get out before anyone tried to persuade him to stay, he didn't seem overly concerned that he would be forced to stay. If he had thought that, he would have split in the midst of a scavenging mission while Cholo and the rest of the rednecks were busy looting a town. Trying to leave from inside the Green suggests he really thought he was free to go.
It's kinda a weird little conundrum. I agree Riley acted like he thought he was free to go. I have to believe Riley knew that Kaufman could screw up the car purchase if he wanted to. It may be that the whole group of them thought the place was freer than it turned out to be. Cholo believed he could buy his way into the Green. Riley believed he could walk away anytime he wished. Both of them were wrong and had bitter brushes with reality. Maybe that's why they didn't help guys like Mulligan?


Kaufman might be abusing his power, but even so, why would he waste the energy to keep people hostage in the city? ... Why would Kaufman push the issue to keep people in, when he new they poor were always on the verge of rioting?
Again, look around the world. Dictatorships survive on the backs of the people. The Fiddler's Green Tower wasn't operating in a vacuum. It required the shanty town to provide cheap labor. Kaufman needed those people to support his lifestyle. And he gave them vices to keep them from rioting. To keep them distracted.


I don't know. Riley gives Cholo a pretty hefty reminder that he wants everyone going home tonight, before they roll into Union Town. I got the impression from Cholo's reaction that it wasn't the first time he'd heard that particular speech and ignored it.

I got the vibe that Riley was just as happy to be done with Cholo as he was with scavenging, in general. They reminded me of those two co-workers that always strain to be civil and cause eveyone else in the room to feel awkward :)
Those are both good points. I'd agree that Riley was sure not chummy with Cholo. They had very different views on human life. But I don't think Cholo was getting guys killed a ton. Riley took the kid's death pretty hard for it to have been a common occurrence.

Looking at the rest of the scavengers it's not hard to think Riley was sick of them all. The idiots on the motorcycles made Cholo look full of win.

Regarding Peter - I think Peter is a top line choice. However, it's interesting to note that Peter had a gun to his head intending to check out, thereby leaving the pregnant gal on the roof to fend for herself. I think that's something to note when comparing him to guys like Riley who have survived way longer and have seen just as much atrocity.

[Wooley]

No love for Barb from the Night '90 remake? By the end of the movie, she'd shaken herself out and found her inner rock to focus on the task at hand.
Plus she's good looking.

[AcesandEights]

No love for Barb from the Night '90 remake? By the end of the movie, she'd shaken herself out and found her inner rock to focus on the task at hand.
Plus she's good looking.

Excellent call, though I hadn't bother to consider the remake.

[DawnFan inCincy]

Asia Argento

All the shut in and end of the world stuff might cause her to lower her standards.

[Trin]

I don't believe in the remake.

[SRP76]

I don't believe in the remake.

Finally, someone who shares my opinion!:hyper:

I didn't like the whole going from vegetable to Rambo in 15 minutes thing they did. Neo-Barb is one of my least favorite characters in any of the Romero zombie sets (originals and remakes combined).

She doesn't approach Miguel-level enmity, though. Nobody does.

[Cupid Stunts]

Wooley,
a true force of nature until Peter went all reparations on him.