The Andy Situation

[SRP76]

We all know and love poor, starving, gun-toting Andy from the Dawn remake. Even haters have got to enjoy Andy.

Now, we meet this poor bastard early in the film, and nobody can seem to do jack shit for him from the mall until very late (too late for Andy, it turns out) in the movie. I've always hated that.

So, put yourself in the shoes of the mallrats. How would you handle the Andy situation? Would you leave him to starve? Try to get him? What's the plan?

[Andy]

I Just saw the title in the top 5 replies box and came in here with the ban stick out and ready..

Carry on :)

[DjfunkmasterG]

I would have taken the truck over before too many zombies showed up, got him, stocked piled all the ammo, guns, and other crap i could fit in there and headed back to mall and stayed put for life.

[AcesandEights]

The first thing I thought was: 'Oh, no. What's happened to Andy?"

As far as the Andy in Dawn '04, I say RC chopper him a ham sandwich and get a decent plan together. I recall there were some previous conversations on the topic.

[krakenslayer]

I Just saw the title in the top 5 replies box and came in here with the ban stick out and ready..

Carry on :)

I know, I was all pumped up for watching me some fireworks and flameballs, had my popcorn ready and everything :lol:

[DubiousComforts]

So, put yourself in the shoes of the mallrats.
I can't because the screenplay rendered them impossibly stupid.

They luck into a seemingly impregnable fortress with all the supplies they'll ever need while hordes of living dead congregate aimlessly and helplessly several stories below.

Nope, I can't think of single solid plan that makes sense other than fleeing the scene for a boat.

P.S. I thought this would be about HPOTD's Andy, too.

[krakenslayer]

I can't because they screenplay rendered them impossibly stupid.

They luck into a seemingly impregnable fortress with all the supplies they'll ever need while hordes of living dead congregate aimlessly and helplessly several stories below.

Nope, I can't think of single solid plan that makes sense other than fleeing the scene for a boat.

Yeah, if they'd involved some kind of raider activity (also giving a further nod to the first film) it would have exerted a more believable pressure on the group to make a move. It doesn't even have to be a full-scale invasion, even just one abortive attempt to light a fire under their ass and allow them to get their plan together before it is followed by a larger assault during the climactic escape. It would have made a lot more sense that way.

[bassman]

What I don't get is that after all that time Andy still didn't realize that a bite means you're screwed?


Fuck andy and fuck all those horribly written characters.:D

[Andy]

Yeah, if they'd involved some kind of raider activity (also giving a further nod to the first film) it would have exerted a more believable pressure on the group to make a move. It doesn't even have to be a full-scale invasion, even just one abortive attempt to light a fire under their ass and allow them to get their plan together before it is followed by a larger assault during the climactic escape. It would have made a lot more sense that way.

Ive always wondered why they dont include some kind of raid on the mall! it would of been a nice nod to the original movie and it would of been a better plot twist than the dopey girl chasing after her dog.

[Legion2213]

The first thing I thought was: 'Oh, no. What's happened to Andy?"

As far as the Andy in Dawn '04, I say RC chopper him a ham sandwich and get a decent plan together. I recall there were some previous conversations on the topic.

Yeah, I remember that, I thought the RC was a decent Idea myself, they could've made 10-20 (or more) trips a day depending on how good they got at it, could've stocked Andy up with basic food while taking a box of ammo back to the mall every trip.


.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Ive always wondered why they dont include some kind of raid on the mall! it would of been a nice nod to the original movie and it would of been a better plot twist than the dopey girl chasing after her dog.

Well with Running Zombies the chances of any surviving biker gangs would be zilch.

[SRP76]

The first time I saw the movie and they showed Andy, the only thing I thought was "fuck that dude; look what he's standing on! That's what you need".

Unlike the dweebs in the film, every waking second of my life would have been dedicated to getting over there. Andy himself is irrelevant to me; I MUST get my hands on those guns, and, most importantly, that huge supply of ammo.

The one idea I got right away was to search out a sporting goods store in that mall, looking specifically for mountain-climbing and ice-climbing gear. We need some safety cable and pitons, but we're going to be using them horizontally instead of vertically. Some casters and safety harness. You can guess the rest: setting up a roof-to-roof "trolley" system. Grab a bow and some arrows from the same sporting goods store and a healthy supply of light string from wherever. That's going to be our shotline; after faking out the string on the mall roof, we tie one end to an arrow and fire over to Andy. He takes up his end, and heaves it all over. Our end is tied to the actual cable (we used the string because the cable itself is way too heavy for an arrow to carry), and Andy's going to drag it over, along with a walkie (to communicate the rest of the effort with us) and the pitons he needs to anchor his end.

It would take about half an hour, but we'd have our foot in Andy's door.

If we couldn't get our supplies, I would be obsessed with finding another option. Fuck everything else in the world; those guns MUST be ours!

[Andy]

Well with Running Zombies the chances of any surviving biker gangs would be zilch.

Did i say biker gangs? :p

In fact im sure ive heard snyder mention a planned helicopter raid on the mall or something like that which never happened, i need to watch that again..

[SRP76]

A helicopter raid would have been pure failure. They can only do one thing: land it on the roof. Heroes simply go inside and lock the door to the roof. Sit inside and plug any moron that breaks through the door and spills into the enclosed stairwell. End of raid.

[DjfunkmasterG]

a helicopter raid would have been pure failure. They can only do one thing: Land it on the roof. Heroes simply go inside and lock the door to the roof. Sit inside and plug any moron that breaks through the door and spills into the enclosed stairwell. End of raid.

bingo!

[Andy]

A helicopter raid would have been pure failure. They can only do one thing: land it on the roof. Heroes simply go inside and lock the door to the roof. Sit inside and plug any moron that breaks through the door and spills into the enclosed stairwell. End of raid.

Assuming that the occupants of the mall know that the helicopter landing is raiders and not friends, dont forget they go out of their way to get the occupants of a truck into the mall without so much as asking their names, Your raiders land a chopper, pose as friendlies, get inside and then take control, easy.

Failing that i suppose they could go with the alternative you guys are offering and ride motorbikes through crowds of olympic zombies :rolleyes:

[rongravy]

A helicopter raid would have been pure failure. They can only do one thing: land it on the roof. Heroes simply go inside and lock the door to the roof. Sit inside and plug any moron that breaks through the door and spills into the enclosed stairwell. End of raid.
I bet some crazy, innovative ways to get in could've been thought up. Maybe that's what they needed in the middle of the movie when it got boring and they were just hanging out for a long time...



Yeah, I remember that, I thought the RC was a decent Idea myself, they could've made 10-20 (or more) trips a day depending on how good they got at it, could've stocked Andy up with basic food while taking a box of ammo back to the mall every trip.

Andy's coming with! He was a pretty good shot, too.
Better him than that idiot chick who got him bit chasing after her damn dog.


Somebody said something about a trolley thing too. Weren't the two buildings just a little too far apart for that? I'd have to watch it again, but they were apart enough they needed help to see that far. Don't remember if it was binocs or a scope...
It's been a very long time since I watched that movie. And I've slept since then.

[Mr.G]

Maybe that's what they needed in the middle of the movie when it got boring and they were just hanging out for a long time.

Boring? I enjoyed the shit out of the amateur porn myself. :D

[Debbieangel]

After finding out Andy was there why wouldn't they have told him to watch because one bite and your toast? The movie shows a good amount of time (off screen) was playing games and writing one that dry/erase board.
You would think they would have shared important details instead of screwing around playing games.
Andy needing food... I like the idea of making a line from gunstore to mall. I mean Andy himself said about all the weapons he had in his shop. You KNOW he had some kindof weapon that could shoot a line over to the mall.
:dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::d ead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dea d::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::dead::bored :

[krakenslayer]

Unlike the dweebs in the film, every waking second of my life would have been dedicated to getting over there. Andy himself is irrelevant to me; I MUST get my hands on those guns, and, most importantly, that huge supply of ammo.


You sound like you'd be the villainous power-hungry guy who'd scream "Fuck Andy and fuck the rest of you, those guns are mine, y'hear?" and "You'll all be sorry when I get my hands on those GUNS!", followed by a Cooper-esque power grab. It's never a good idea to be that guy, we all know what happens to the cold-hearted fella in these movies. ;)


A helicopter raid would have been pure failure. They can only do one thing: land it on the roof. Heroes simply go inside and lock the door to the roof. Sit inside and plug any moron that breaks through the door and spills into the enclosed stairwell. End of raid.

I'm sure they could have come up with something more viable if the James Gunn/Zach Snyder/Universal had wanted to include a raid. Just off the top of my head I can think of four feasible plans - dropping explosives from height onto the roof of the mall until either the survivors surrender or there are enough holes in the ceiling to give the raiders a choice of access points; landing on the roof and using explosives/incendiaries to clear the stairwell of any resistance before entering; pretending to be a rescue team to gain access to the building before pulling weapons on the survivors; hovering a few hundred yards away with an RPG or high powered rifles aimed at the front doors of the mall and demand over a megaphone that the survivors come up on the roof and drop their guns over the side or they'll take out the doors and open the zombie floodgates on the mall - four plans and I didn't have the benefit of potentially hours/days of planning that the raiders might have. Never underestimate desperate guys, especially if they have a helicopter. :D

[bassman]

After finding out Andy was there why wouldn't they have told him to watch because one bite and your toast? The movie shows a good amount of time (off screen) was playing games and writing one that dry/erase board.
You would think they would have shared important details instead of screwing around playing games.

That was my point as well. Even if they hadn't had time to warn him themselves, we're led to believe that these people are held up for weeks or possibly months....and Andy STILL couldn't figure this out by himself?!? They should've left the dumbass.

Andy as a character is a total waste(much like the entire cast, but we won't get into all that). It would have been more believable if near the middle of the film someone spotted the building with "G U N S" painted on the side and said "hey...we should go get some guns". No andy, no problem.

Basically Andy was only written in for the "funny" scene of shooting celebrity look-a-likes.:rolleyes:

[DubiousComforts]

Basically Andy was only written in for the "funny" scene of shooting celebrity look-a-likes.:rolleyes:
This pretty much describes writing the dog into the script, too. Dog shows up, so you just know it's going to have some single function use later in the film. Pretty lazy screenwriting.

[Trin]

Oh, I think Andy was far more integral to the plot than just the dog or celebrity scene. The whole undoing of the mall came upon attempting to get food to Andy. They needed his guns, if not him, and they knew it.

I did a LOTF:RTFG mod map for Dawn '04 so I studied the layout of the outside areas pretty thoroughly (as much as you could see in the movie). I don't think the buildings were close enough to move from rooftop to rooftop even with a pulley system. Not starting from the mall. The mall was surrounded by a large parking lot. Even the lightpoles are a fair distance from any building across the streets.

I liked the simple idea of taking the truck and going to pick him up. The girl managed to get into the truck and drive over there. If she'd had a couple guys riding on top with guns out, and Andy was waiting with bags of stuff to toss down onto the roof, they'd have been fine.

[Andy]

If you watch the andy tape feature that was on the DVD, by the time he got bit.. wasnt he nutty as a fruit cake anyway?

[Trin]

Do we really know that Andy wasn't told about the bites? Maybe Andy thought he'd pull through regardless of what the others told him about bites. So the people in the mall saw a guy die assumedly because of the bites. Maybe that guy was a wuss. If I got bit I'm not taking someone else's speculation of what might happen too seriously, especially when I didn't see it for myself. Or maybe Andy was too distracted by the fact that he was lying in a pool of his own blood to realize the implications of his situation.

[bassman]

Do we really know that Andy wasn't told about the bites? Maybe Andy thought he'd pull through regardless of what the others told him about bites. So the people in the mall saw a guy die assumedly because of the bites. Maybe that guy was a wuss. If I got bit I'm not taking someone else's speculation of what might happen too seriously, especially when I didn't see it for myself. Or maybe Andy was too distracted by the fact that he was lying in a pool of his own blood to realize the implications of his situation.

ehhh....possible I guess. But the scene really plays itself out like he doesn't know. The way he says "those bastards bite hard"(and then continues to ask about the plan, I believe), the way the people on the roof react, and the way there's that kind of "Just don't tell him" feeling playing throughout.

It's been a while since I've seen the flick, but there might even be an exchange about not telling him what will happen? If not, I think everything definitely points to the fact that he doesn't know and they won't tell him...

[SRP76]

Why would he know? Why would anyone even think to try to write "hey, don't get bitten" on a board? They probably figured (like most people here) that it should be "common knowledge", and therefore no reason to tell him something they figure he already knows.

[bassman]

I guess it's similar to the whole "you gotta shoot them in the head" scenario that plays out in EVERY zombie film. You would think it's common knowledge, but they still have to explain it to everyone in the film....

[Trin]

ehhh....possible I guess. But the scene really plays itself out like he doesn't know. The way he says "those bastards bite hard"(and then continues to ask about the plan, I believe), the way the people on the roof react, and the way there's that kind of "Just don't tell him" feeling playing throughout.

It's been a while since I've seen the flick, but there might even be an exchange about not telling him what will happen? If not, I think everything definitely points to the fact that he doesn't know and they won't tell him...Yeah, I can see that in their demeanor too.

I guess in the whole whiteboard instant messaging they never got around to telling him that kinda crap.

[DubiousComforts]

Oh, I think Andy was far more integral to the plot than just the dog or celebrity scene.
I never said that Andy wasn't integral. He's the best character in the entire film though he has just a few lines of dialogue.

[sandrock74]

I hate how the conclusion of the events shown in the Andy's Tape bonus plays out differently than what is shown in the movie. They couldn't sync up the two events??

[Billythezombie]

I hate how the conclusion of the events shown in the Andy's Tape bonus plays out differently than what is shown in the movie. They couldn't sync up the two events??
I agree with Sandrock...I mean i wondered that too. In Andy's video journal, he turned into a zombie inside the house..But in the movie, he like, turned into a zombie outside After he wrote on the whiteboard with blood. This is true isnt it? He did turn into a zombie when he looked around crazily?? Maybe its just me..lol.

[BillyRay]

I always figured Andy finally realised that running zombies suck, and just gave up on life...

[Debbieangel]

When I was watching the movie after they showed Andy shooting "celebrities" they were writing notes to him saying they were leaving.
Don't you think they should have also said to him..."Hey man, don't forget to becareful the zombs don't bite you!"?
Then they would have known he has no idea. I remember in one of his lines Andy had said something about how bad they could bite and that he was bleeding pretty bad. Just by the inflection in his voice, well to me anyway, it seemed surprised and had no idea what could happen to him.
I had the impression that Andy was oblivious as what was coming next. imo

[Wyldwraith]

This scenario always frustrated me,
Here you have directly across the parking lot from the Impregnable Fortress of Commercialism the Ultimate Fort of Weapons Depot-ness. You have a guy in said Fort who's obviously the most effective combatant you've seen other than your big black shotgun-toting brooding cop, and this huge white truck its been proven a SENIOR CITIZEN can drive God-only-knows how far through who knows how many zombies.

So the most reasonable reaction to these factors is for Weapons-Having Andy to sit there and play-by-eraseboard various games, without a single mention of having no food until he looks like a long-term resident of a concentration camp. On the other side, NO ONE suggests ANY plan to acquire these resources or such a valuable addition to their manpower/combat strength UNTIL the idiotic walking skeleton mentions at long last he's been quietly starving to death while they played silly games together?

Grr. Simply...GRR! Brain processes fit for retarded slugs in the mallrat crew.

Ok, so it's too far to fire a line all the way from rooftop to rooftop. Why couldn't they simply have driven the truck close enough to fire a line they've towed from the mall end the remaining distance to Andy's roof once they were in range?

Twice it was established in the movie that even senior citizens who smoke heavily and stupid teenagers can get into and out of this truck safely. Why not extrapolate from there the ease of using the truck to get a line over to Andy?

No, instead we get one half-assed comment from our Brooding Cop about how Andy might as well be on the Moon, and its back to play-by-eraseboard gaming.

Grr. Simply...Grr!

I mean C'MON. The plan they FINALLY decide on and put into action results in them being unable to keep ONE LOUSY DOOR secure, resulting in zombies being allowed to pour into the mall.

I know certain things are done to advance plot, but Andy's cause of death was Association With the Terminally STUPID.

[AcesandEights]

Ahhh, the Andy situation...I've waited a long time for someone to bring this up.

Okay, what we need is someone to hit him over the head with a blackjack, or perhaps chloroform him while one of us distracts him with a conversation about curry, then at least one other person to help carry him off to a safehouse (fully stocked with junk food and DVDs/Blu-rays of the original trilogy), wherein we will hold him hostage till he adds enough false extra posts to our respective accounts that we can become ZFEs.

Who's with me? :D

[krakenslayer]

Ahhh, the Andy situation...I've waited a long time for someone to bring this up.

Okay, what we need is someone to hit him over the head with a blackjack, or perhaps chloroform him while one of us distracts him with a conversation about curry, then at least one other person to help carry him off to a safehouse (fully stocked with junk food and DVDs/Blu-rays of the original trilogy), wherein we will hold him hostage till he adds enough false extra posts to our respective accounts that we can become ZFEs.

Who's with me? :D

The original trilogy? You kidding? If you want him to fold, you gotta find his weak spot, the chink in his armour, his Achillies Heel:

Strap him to a chair, stick in the Land of the Dead DVD and we'll all be Zombie Flesh Eaters by the time the copyright warning has left the screen.;)

[AcesandEights]

The original trilogy? You kidding?
No, I was testing you.


If you want him to fold, you gotta find his weak spot, the chink in his armour, his Achillies Heel:

Strap him to a chair, stick in the Land of the Dead DVD and we'll all be Zombie Flesh Eaters by the time the copyright warning has left the screen.;)

Welcome to the team.

Now we just need a howling mad helicopter pilot/wild card and a muscled wheel man with a bad attitude...

[Andy]

The original trilogy? You kidding? If you want him to fold, you gotta find his weak spot, the chink in his armour, his Achillies Heel:

Strap him to a chair, stick in the Land of the Dead DVD and we'll all be Zombie Flesh Eaters by the time the copyright warning has left the screen.;)

I Have cyanide pills embedded in my fillings for just such an occassion :shifty:

[Trin]

*Looks in the air and moans in zombie pain at his fellow zombie's plight.*

*Then looks in the air and moans in zombie plotting of revenge against the poster's who would do this to fellow zombie.*

Back to the other Andy topic. I thought the plan all along was to rescue Andy with the A-team-esque busses, and that they were very close to enacting that plan. But Andy got famished more quickly than they expected, causing them to have to quickly formulate a Plan B.

[AcesandEights]

I thought the plan all along was to rescue Andy with the A-team-esque busses, and that they were very close to enacting that plan. But Andy got famished more quickly than they expected, causing them to have to quickly formulate a Plan B.

'Plan B' was actually the ad hoc reaction to rescue the (possibly) last hot redhead left alive, after her stupid decision to go after her dog.

[bassman]

'Plan B' was actually the ad hoc reaction to rescue the (possibly) last hot redhead left alive, after her stupid decision to go after her dog.

Ya know....if she was going over there to get the dog anyway, the bitch could have at least taken the man a sandwhich or two in case the dog failed...

[Thorn]

A helicopter raid would have been pure failure. They can only do one thing: land it on the roof. Heroes simply go inside and lock the door to the roof. Sit inside and plug any moron that breaks through the door and spills into the enclosed stairwell. End of raid.


Flash bangs and grenades work well to clear stairwells. As do firebombs, Molotovs' teargas, and so on. It would depend on who was trying to get in. How well armed they were, and how well trained.

[SRP76]

Flash bangs and grenades work well to clear stairwells. As do firebombs, Molotovs' teargas, and so on. It would depend on who was trying to get in. How well armed they were, and how well trained.

In the world of Dawn '04, Solid Snake's not showing up. Some ultra-trained, done-to-death-in-movies Ultimate Warrior Commando Squad wouldn't need the mall in the first place. To even exist, they would have to be coming from a place for more advanced than Sears.

[darth los]

'Plan B' was actually the ad hoc reaction to rescue the (possibly) last hot redhead left alive, after her stupid decision to go after her dog.


Her going for that dog was the unraveling of everything. At the very least it forced them into their "plan" far faster than they were prepared to which they were obviously not.

:cool:

[krakenslayer]

In the world of Dawn '04, Solid Snake's not showing up. Some ultra-trained, done-to-death-in-movies Ultimate Warrior Commando Squad wouldn't need the mall in the first place. To even exist, they would have to be coming from a place for more advanced than Sears.

Come on man, I know nothing about weapons and even I could make some Molotovs out of bottles, rags and petrol - all of which I could put my hands on within five minutes.

You can also make black powder out of sulphur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate, all easily obtainable from any high school chemistry department and numerous other freely available sources; stick that mixture in a sealed-up pipe, throw some nuts, bolts and nails in there for shrapnel, pop in a fuse made of a lace coated in super glue, and you've got a very deadly little pipe bomb. Don't try that at home by the way.

Anyone with a copy of The Anarchist Cookbook can make things that go bang with relative ease. Sure they'd probably have to be better supplied than the people in the mall, but let's imagine the raiders have plenty of weapons and materials, and now they're after food, luxuries and a safe building to secure.

[Wyldwraith]

Well,
If we're just imagining things I say that a friendly counter-insurgency unit HALO drops onto the mall roof just in time to ice your commandos and get themselves some nurse and stupid redhead tail.

Ain't the imagination wonderful? Now neither of us needs to answer pesky questions such as where such well-equipped/well-organized combatants came from, or why out of the hundreds or thousands of similarly stocked malls in the geographical region, they just *happened* to drop by this one.

I mean, the raiders at least had a helicopter bobbing about to clue them in to the mall in Original Dawn. The painted signs on the roof and hung over the edge of the roof should've read "If you can read this and aren't at 500+ feet you're already ghoul-chow."

Oh, and in regards to "Plan B"...you hit the nail squarely on the head. Unless I was some depraved whacko who'd somehow come to the conclusion that the horrible crime of rape was O.K (a stretch, seeing as how I got permanently disabled PREVENTING a gang-rape, but hey, this is the Zombolocaust), and that I intend to make a sex-slave out of the dumb redhead girl...since I can imagine not ONE other single useful existence for her, their Plan B was idiotic. Write the girl off, continue with plans as previously laid out.

The loss of the Big White Truck was more of a loss than that redhead.

K, rant over. Think I need to take a break from Dawn '04 threads since they seem to provoke the worst in me. Unsurprising, since its one of the VERY few movies ever to provoke me to feel an actual sense of rage against the protagonists.

[krakenslayer]

Well,
If we're just imagining things I say that a friendly counter-insurgency unit HALO drops onto the mall roof just in time to ice your commandos and get themselves some nurse and stupid redhead tail.

Ain't the imagination wonderful? Now neither of us needs to answer pesky questions such as where such well-equipped/well-organized combatants came from, or why out of the hundreds or thousands of similarly stocked malls in the geographical region, they just *happened* to drop by this one.


Um... I'm not talking about the writer pulling random stuff out of his ass and just leaving the audience to just fill in the blanks, I'm talking about what the filmmakers could do to make a helicopter raid plausible (which I think it could be).

[Trin]

'Plan B' was actually the ad hoc reaction to rescue the (possibly) last hot redhead left alive, after her stupid decision to go after her dog.Sending the dog was Plan B. Going after the girl who was going after the dog was plan WTF.

I like to believe the rest of them were going after the dog too. Or the truck. Or the sandwich. Anything short of admitting they were really willing to risk (waste) their lives attempting to save that ridiculously stupid girl.

Not to mention that when push comes to shove there was a manhole cover 30 feet from the gun shop and unrestricted access to the tunnel beneath from within the mall. You'd think Andy could'a busted it out of the shop and made it to the manhole before getting ganked, especially if Ving and a few of the others were waiting with the cover open waiting to close it as soon as he was down.

[Thorn]

In the world of Dawn '04, Solid Snake's not showing up. Some ultra-trained, done-to-death-in-movies Ultimate Warrior Commando Squad wouldn't need the mall in the first place. To even exist, they would have to be coming from a place for more advanced than Sears.


Who said anything about solid snake? Any one scavenging the corpse of national guard or riot police could easily have access to these devices. There are plenty of veterans around with the knowledge of how to use weapons like the ones mentioned above as well as inventive people with know how. More over we do not have any idea who all is left alive, there very well could be a rogue branch of the military around that goes around looting and preying on innocent.

Just because I offered a counter point to your absolute statement doesn't make my idea ridiculous. I never said the A-team I listed a number of options which would all be plausible in the world presented to us.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is not possible.

It is as possible as the writer wants it to be. If zombies can run and feed on the living I think another group of survivors could be alive with basic military training and supplies.

---------- Post added at 02:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------


Well,
If we're just imagining things I say that a friendly counter-insurgency unit HALO drops onto the mall roof just in time to ice your commandos and get themselves some nurse and stupid redhead tail.

Well there is making things up that are easily accepted, and then there are things that go so far outside the scope of the film as to destroy the immersion. Your idea is clearly ridiculous. Raiders or ex military assaulting the mall is not. These raiders having weapons improvised or otherwise is not only believable it would be required and would help to explain their still being alive TO prey on those inside the mall.


Ain't the imagination wonderful? Now neither of us needs to answer pesky questions such as where such well-equipped/well-organized combatants came from, or why out of the hundreds or thousands of similarly stocked malls in the geographical region, they just *happened* to drop by this one.

Imagination is wonderful forgive me however for liking it to make sense within the context of the film however. As to why this mall. Why not? It would not be much of a story if they went to an empty one and we never got to see them would it? The point of the discussion was raiders or some sort of force motivating those holed up inside the mall to leave we are suggesting and discussing ways to motivate that action. You are nit picking. Why did our survivors pick this mall? They could have gone to another one and we could have just looked at the fountain for an hour and a half. That would have been worth my 10 bucks and the price of popcorn.


I mean, the raiders at least had a helicopter bobbing about to clue them in to the mall in Original Dawn. The painted signs on the roof and hung over the edge of the roof should've read "If you can read this and aren't at 500+ feet you're already ghoul-chow."

And in this case they were up on the roof constantly discharging firearms, I dare say making that kind of noise is bound to attract attention. It is logical to assert that if a band of raiders was nearby they could have heard the gunshots and gone to investigate. They too could have tried to go to the many other areas as our survivors did, but found no help... no easy pickings. Here they have a fortress. Now me personally. I wouldn't fight unless I had to. In the original dawn why didn't the bikers go elsewhere obviously confrontation is dangerous and wasted energy. I do not see you decrying that, you just say they saw a helicopter and that is good enough for you. Okay. In my story they hear shots. If that is the only stumbling point I think I addressed it for you.

[Wyldwraith]

Wait,
Thorn, I apologize for being flippant and smart-assed on your post. It was disrespectful, and actually misleading.

For one thing I was never in fact satisfied that out of all the places the bikers in the original Dawn could've gone, they *happened* to be in the right place to sight the helicopter.

In general, the purpose of my post was meant to underscore the unlikelihood of two separate and unaffiliated groups choosing to fight and die over the same piece of real estate during the same time frame.

Or even more basic, to ask the question why *fight at all against entrenched defenders* when you can simply motor 20-30 miles down the road to the next Mall?

I mean surely the Munroeville Mall can't POSSIBLY be even CLOSE to unique in its area as regards resources available. I live in a relatively small town and we have 2 malls and EIGHT strip malls, NOT counting the shopping complexes that spring up around Wal-Marts and other franchise grocery stores.

Since I can see my poking fun at the improbability was considered offensive and in bad taste, I will again apologize and withdraw from the discussion.

Carry on.

[bassman]

Why would two groups fight over a piece of land when they could just move to the next?

Think about the history of mankind for a moment.:p

[Trin]

In the original Dawn the bikers had been roaming for months. It's not inconceivable that they were hitting every single mall and strip mall in the state in a slow progression.

As to why they'd fight for the one mall still with people in it. They did say, "We don't like people who don't share. You just f'ed up real bad." These guys didn't need a reason beyond that.

And I will echo Bassman's comment. Yeah, history proves that what one person has another one wants regardless of what else is available.

[Thorn]

Wait,
Thorn, I apologize for being flippant and smart-assed on your post. It was disrespectful, and actually misleading.

For one thing I was never in fact satisfied that out of all the places the bikers in the original Dawn could've gone, they *happened* to be in the right place to sight the helicopter.

In general, the purpose of my post was meant to underscore the unlikelihood of two separate and unaffiliated groups choosing to fight and die over the same piece of real estate during the same time frame.

Or even more basic, to ask the question why *fight at all against entrenched defenders* when you can simply motor 20-30 miles down the road to the next Mall?

I mean surely the Munroeville Mall can't POSSIBLY be even CLOSE to unique in its area as regards resources available. I live in a relatively small town and we have 2 malls and EIGHT strip malls, NOT counting the shopping complexes that spring up around Wal-Marts and other franchise grocery stores.

Since I can see my poking fun at the improbability was considered offensive and in bad taste, I will again apologize and withdraw from the discussion.

Carry on.

Oh no worries man sorry if I snapped back, it just seemed like a reasonable discussion was met with two sarcastic posts that were kind of unmoving and not open to debate. I tend to loathe that, I mean why come to discuss things if your opinion is the only right one and everyone else is clueless? I also hate when people speak in absolute terms as if they have sole dominion over things.

That said I got a bit pissy back and I am sorry for that.

I also agree as I hinted to, I found the mall attack in the first Dawn poorly motivated and if I was in charge of the bikers I would never risk my people in that kind of a siege. So we agree there.

As to there not being two well armed bands in the area, I can see your point but again in a movie it can happen and does all the time. You need to create drama, you need conflict and tension. So if you can accept the zombies... you have to admit accepting another band of armed survivors is not that much of a stretch if it furthers the plot.

Lastly let me just try to provide motivation for it. Our survivors established very early on there was no help coming, rescue stations were out, Fort Pastor was gone. People couldn't travel from point a to point b without losing numbers of their group.

So if there was another group that was armed and motivated, but low on supplies. They might find it easier to fight through 8 survivors in a stairwell than hundreds of thousands of the undead in the streets. Perhaps they ran out of gas... and needed to land. Maybe they were crazy. I mean you can motivated it anyway you want creatively you know?

Right place wrong time.

/shrug

In the end it is a story and I for one would have liked to have seen something that motivated the survivors to flee... something other than "I'm on a boat". Anyhow no harm no foul always enjoyed discussing things with you.

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 PM ----------


Why would two groups fight over a piece of land when they could just move to the next?

Think about the history of mankind for a moment.:p


In the original Dawn the bikers had been roaming for months. It's not inconceivable that they were hitting every single mall and strip mall in the state in a slow progression.

As to why they'd fight for the one mall still with people in it. They did say, "We don't like people who don't share. You just f'ed up real bad." These guys didn't need a reason beyond that.

And I will echo Bassman's comment. Yeah, history proves that what one person has another one wants regardless of what else is available.


Really good points, you said it much better than I could have myself.

[Wyldwraith]

Ok,
You drew me back in. First, the vast majority of territorial conflicts you're referencing were fought by individuals interested in either the strategic position or long-term benefits of the patch of dirt being fought over.

On the other hand, there IS a historical contemporary quite similar in methodology to the original Dawn Bikers. The barbarian/nomadic militant culture based on lightning raids and seizing plunder, where performance in said raids was as important to the individual as the loot gained.

Ie: Vikings, Mongols, Huns, Goths, Hell's Angels, etc.

The ONE problem I have with the bikers in Dawn comes in 2 parts. 1) Looters want loot, not casualties. Now yes, since they were confident they vastly outnumbered the mall defenders, there's nothing inconsistent in their behavior so far.

My problem comes once they're inside the mall and apparently not being opposed. How did men who've survived this long do so by caring about stuff like Rolexes and 14 carat gold necklaces? Beyond that, the suicidal behaviors they exhibit, sitting down in the blood-pressure cuff with zombies swarming all around, guys riding around hitting zombies in the face with pies etc.

It's inconsistent with the behavior of hardened survivors.

The 2nd part of my problem is even simpler. Once they had access, once they seemed unopposed by the mall inhabitants, they had no plan. Why risk all those casualties if you don't have a plan to seize goods worth the risk?

Other than my previously mentioned issues with improbability that were well-addressed by the theory that the bikers were systematically hitting all resource centers in the area, that's the end of my issues.

Again, didn't mean to put down or otherwise offend anyone's point of view, just thought I'd explain myself.

[Trin]

Ok,
You drew me back in. First, the vast majority of territorial conflicts you're referencing were fought by individuals interested in either the strategic position or long-term benefits of the patch of dirt being fought over.
The most contested piece of dirt on the earth is fought over due to religious significance. Not that the mall qualifies - just pointing it out. Not everyone's rationale for wanting something is based on what you or I might want.


My problem comes once they're inside the mall and apparently not being opposed. How did men who've survived this long do so by caring about stuff like Rolexes and 14 carat gold necklaces? Beyond that, the suicidal behaviors they exhibit, sitting down in the blood-pressure cuff with zombies swarming all around, guys riding around hitting zombies in the face with pies etc.

It's inconsistent with the behavior of hardened survivors.
What makes you think they would've had even one casualty if the dawn crew hadn't intervened? Yeah, they were seemingly stupid. But they were also very used to operating in the open amongst the zombies. Without Flyboy starting a fight they might have romped through the mall half the night without losing anyone.


The 2nd part of my problem is even simpler. Once they had access, once they seemed unopposed by the mall inhabitants, they had no plan. Why risk all those casualties if you don't have a plan to seize goods worth the risk?
This is a very interesting point. In your view their goals should have been to gather necessary supplies in the least risky method possible. Makes sense. Mine would be too.

But in another thread we're talking about how anger and violence get pent up in survivors. What if part of the goal was to let the guys blow off steam? Let them go pick on someone else and romp around the mall for a while?

We do see the leaders of the biker gang trying to reign the guys in after a bit, but ALSO letting them have some fun. Maybe that fun is required to keep them from getting too rowdy with each other during the long downtimes between raids?

[Wyldwraith]

This is a very interesting point. In your view their goals should have been to gather necessary supplies in the least risky method possible. Makes sense. Mine would be too.

But in another thread we're talking about how anger and violence get pent up in survivors. What if part of the goal was to let the guys blow off steam? Let them go pick on someone else and romp around the mall for a while?

We do see the leaders of the biker gang trying to reign the guys in after a bit, but ALSO letting them have some fun. Maybe that fun is required to keep them from getting too rowdy with each other during the long downtimes between raids?

Possible,
Yet I maintain if the social dynamic driving such a group requires its leaders to essentially "let the dogs off the leash" for awhile at the beginning of each operation, it wouldn't be long before that very behavior caused massive casualties. As many zombie movies have illustrated, very large numbers of zombies can move into the most inconvenient of positions before survivors in the area know they're there.

Put another way, if those Bikers had been behaving in a Walmart with maybe 30-50 zombies inside it the way they behaved at the Munroeville Mall, how many men would they have lost during their exit strategy (assuming they have one) if they triggered the sort of delayed-reaction swarming out of nearby structures that we see at the beginning of Day?

Essentially I'm expressing doubt that unruliness of ANY widespread sort will lead to much death long before even the most numerous group of armed civilians makes it to the 90 day+ mark of the zombie apocalypse. ONE mistake that lets a horde get 7-8 deep around your position and its game over for everyone IMO.

Which those deafeningly loud choppers make frighteningly likely, again IMO.

[zombieparanoia]

I think andy should have been burning ammo night and day shooting zombies till he could just walk across the fucking parking lot.

I mean, you're stuck in a gun store with all the ammo in the world and no food. Between you and food(and pussy) is a parking lot full of targets. Wheres the problem?

[Trin]

He shoulda tried to eat one.