Are You Selfish?

[SRP76]

This should be fun.

In this "what would you do in an outbreak" installment, let's focus on just one specific thing: your capacity for throwing people under the bus.

In short, how ruthless can you get? Watching a stranger get mauled while you hide? Only ditching people you hated in life? Or would you use dear old Grandma as a meat shield?

[blind2d]

Good topic! Okay, for me... yeah, any stranger who doesn't seem particularly useful or fun would be ignored... on a scale of one to ten, I'm probably around seven... so... yeah, people I don't like would definitely be ignored... close relatives and friends are really the only people I would consider helping...

[krakenslayer]

I know if someone actually asked for my help, and it was possible to help them, then I would. Other than that, I have no idea, no fucking clue, how I would react. I can't even begin to imagine what I'd be like in that situation.

[clanglee]

My close family would get me killed. I would have to secure the safety of my wife and parents, and then actually get way across town to get my daughter. (No way I'm leaving her with her mother) And then of course I would feel bad about leaving her little sisters behind and would have to offer my ex and her husband and their kids asylum. Which vastly reduces my chances for survival.

Everyone else can suck it tho. I might not like it, and I might feel bad about it, but anyone else that has nothing to offer me would be turned away

[Mike70]

anyone who isn't my son or my dad can fuck off and die - literally. they are the only two people that i would stick my neck out for. my siblings would make useful decoys and i would probably shoot most of my extended family just for shits, giggles and target practice.

[SRP76]

Guess we could call this the Rhodes Scale. 0 for a saint who riskes his life for a stray cat, 10 for the guy who shoves Grandma into a ghoul to buy time.

I won't lie; I'm about a 9. The only life I can't afford to lose is my own. If I croak, nothing else will matter as far as I'm concerned. So I must do everything possible to keep myself alive; I can live with anyone else croaking.

Only thing that keeps me from getting a 10 would be that I wouldn't refuse to help someone just for the hell of it. If the risk to myself is minimal, I'd help someone else.

[AcesandEights]

It's impossible to say for certain.

WWCED?

[Mike70]

WWCED?

please, please tell me that this stands for "what would clint eastwood do."

if so, that is a winning philosophy all around.:lol:

---------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------


Guess we could call this the Rhodes Scale. 0 for a saint who riskes his life for a stray cat, 10 for the guy who shoves Grandma into a ghoul to buy time.


an 8 for me. like i said above, other than my son and my dad (who is deadly with firearms) i gots (sic) no time to play the hero. i'm not saying that i'd go all khardis on people, just that i wouldn't take any risks attempting to help other people out.

[bassman]

Family first. No matter what I would take care of them.

Other people? Depends on the situation, I guess. If it's in any way iffy....nope. Taking care of the family.

[Mike70]

Family first. No matter what I would take care of them.

Other people? Depends on the situation, I guess. If it's in any way iffy....nope. Taking care of the family.

where do you draw the line at family? do you mean your wife & daughter, along with your parents? or family in general?

family in general is a mighty slippery slope.

[SRP76]

Don't ever takes sides against the family, Fredo.

[Wyldwraith]

I cringe to say this,
Yet I'm about a 4-5. My mother, badly disabled grandmother and stepfather have sacrificed so much, been there for me all my life, and on a daily basis since my health went into the toilet 12yrs ago that I would stand by them to the very end.

For me there's a particularly insightful comment made by the scarred creepy pirate who keeps/arbitrates the meaning of the Big Book of the Pirate Code in Pirates of the Caribbean: World's End.

He's talking to Jack Sparrow and says "The trick isn't to live forever. It's to be able to live with yourself however long you live."

Trite/cheesy source, yet it sums up my feelings perfectly. I can so easily imagine my advanced-emphysema-having grandmother, who needs to be on a home oxygen machine at least a few hours each day, while she sleeps, and on her portable tank of oxygen when she leaves the house first urging, then DEMANDING I leave her behind, and knock my mother out to keep her from staying with her. All she would ask of me is that I do my best to protect my Mom/her daughter, my brother and watch my Uncle's/her son's back. That, and to put a bullet between her eyes so she isn't at risk of becoming a THING that might try to harm the very loved ones she has labored for nearly 7 decades to nurture, aid and protect.

How do you bring yourself to mercy-kill a woman whose been much more a 2nd mother than a grandmother, that's done so much for my whole family?

Yet if I don't/didn't, I betray her most fervent convictions by signing the death warrants of her children, who would either stay too long and die, or refuse to do what was necessary to survive when it meant leaving her behind. If I didn't end it, they all die by Day 2 at the very latest (our home being completely indefensible)

So, now I'm on the road with the blood of the person I love more than anyone but my Mom on my hands, and I have the mountain-sized weight of responsibility to her family on me. And it would be on me, because she knows I'm the only one enough like my late grandfather to see the necessity and step up, no matter how horribly it crushed me inside.

I'd be a dead man walking, because one by one, assuming that somehow we avoided all dangers, my family members would begin dying off one by one as their critically-needed meds ran out. My much older stepfather would probably stroke out, but a third heart attack would be just as likely once his blood pressure zoomed through the roof and stayed there due to his health and the stress we'd be under. Then my Mom would basically be hanging onto sanity by her fingernails, holding it together solely for me and my brother. She'd keep coming apart at the seams under stress, but she'd do her damnedest to live for me and my bro.

Of course she has half a dozen health conditions that...nm, you get the picture.

So, assuming I'm STILL alive. I've almost completely failed my grandmother and its been less than a couple months. My uncle has terrible knees, my brother has a bad hip and knee, and I've got hideous back & spinal/nerve issues. Basically a crapshoot what order we go in, but it'd be like dominoes, because those that remained just wouldn't have enough left to abandon the next-to-last surviving loved one.

Morality, guilt, devotion, shame, conviction, weakness, determination, widespread fragile health.

Love and morality would slaughter my immediate family to the last one of us. The only possible alternative would be if we somehow had to split up to accomplish some necessary objective, and one or more of us became aware of the deaths of the family while I/they were away. Maybe, just maybe, whoever was left might find the drive to motivate them in the idea that our late family members would want me/they to live.

Under those circumstances I couldn't refuse help to any family or survivor of a similar tragedy I came across. Would be the easiest kind of mark for an amoral manipulative Khardis-type. Bitch of it would be KNOWING that emotional baggage was going to get me very dead/undead.

So yea, a 4 or 5. Apologies for the depressing tone to my response.

[JDFP]

Just for the hell of it, Let me be completely up front...

I hear word of the dead coming back to life, and I'm at work. Of course, if it's a Monday - Friday during the day, I'm going to be at work. Come hell, or snow, or high water ("Lord willin' and the creek don't rise") I'm at work. I get word 'cause we're all on the net at work that the dead start rising I'm high-tailing it to my apartment.

Once at my apartment, my locks on my door and my kitchen table against the only window they could get into on my second floor apartment window they could get into at my apartment, I'm calling all my loved ones. I'm calling them and I'm saying if they love living, if they love the value of life, to get their asses over to my apartment. Because fuck if I'm leaving once I'm secure inside.

If loved ones show up at my apartment, I'm going to let them in as they come by one by one. Depending on the gravity as the situation, as I realize it, I'm going to look outside to appraise the situation. If my downstairs neighbor is still around and hasn't moved on to a different locale, I'm going to do what is necessary to deal with him. Read that: What is necessary. The last thing I need to worry about is a week later him coming up trying to break in begging for food. To hell with him, he's not family. Better to kill him as quickly as possible, by whatever means necessary, than to have to deal with his needs later onward.

Unless you're someone I love, I don't really give a shit what happens to you. The center doesn't hold, the beast is born in Bethlehem, and all that, I don't have a concern in my mind except for the people that mean something to me in my life. Unless you're part of that clique, I don't give a shit about you and don't get in my way.

Honestly, in all reality, the way it would boil down would be me (probably alone, naturally) pissing off my balcony on the heads of the dead below until I ran out of food and water and eventually passing into my own death from starvation. They wouldn't take me, that I could guarantee, the sleeping pills, however, probably would. And that's probably about as brutal and honest as I could be about it.

The only thing that could keep me going any further would be if family members were here with me and kept me going in some way or another. Otherwise, I'd probably make the best of it while I could, and then say to hell with it all.

j.p.

[krakenslayer]

If my downstairs neighbor is still around and hasn't moved on to a different locale, I'm going to do what is necessary to deal with him. Read that: What is necessary. The last thing I need to worry about is a week later him coming up trying to break in begging for food. To hell with him, he's not family. Better to kill him as quickly as possible, by whatever means necessary, than to have to deal with his needs later onward.

Unless you're someone I love, I don't really give a shit what happens to you. The center doesn't hold, the beast is born in Bethlehem, and all that, I don't have a concern in my mind except for the people that mean something to me in my life. Unless you're part of that clique, I don't give a shit about you and don't get in my way.


That's mighty Christian of you JD. :rolleyes:

I'm getting a depressing vibe of ratty cowardice from some of these posts. I'd rather die trying to give someone else a chance, if you're gonna go then better to get it out of the way early and in a blaze of glory rather than cowering alone in some hovel filled only with your own shit, the starved corpses of your elderly parents, and a crushing sense of guilt and regret.

People didn't get through the Blitz, the plague and an ice age by immediately stabbing each other in the back and pissing on the corpse at the first sign of trouble. A bit of ruthlessness is good, but it should happen when unforeseen circumstances call for it, when Plan A fails and there's no other option; it shouldn't be something you gleefully plot in advance. There's survival instinct, and then there's psychopathy.

[Rancid Carcass]

I'm with Krakenslayer on this one, do what you can for people as long as it is practical to do so. If you were in that situation you'd hope that someone would do the same for you, and lets face it, if you're going to start indiscriminately killing people you might as well be a zombie.

[bassman]

where do you draw the line at family? do you mean your wife & daughter, along with your parents? or family in general?

family in general is a mighty slippery slope.

My mistake. Guess I should've cleared that up. I mean my immediate family. The Wife and Daughter. The others(mother, father, brother, etc) would be on their own, but I would help them as long as it doesn't put my wife and kid at harm.

[AcesandEights]

please, please tell me that this stands for "what would clint eastwood do."


It's like you're a mind reader, Mike...or maybe a mindflayer :eek:

[sandrock74]

I move north where there is less people living, therefore less zombies to deal with. That makes things easier right off the bat.

Unlike the rest of you it seems, I believe that the survival of the human race is paramount. It's more important than any one of us, even myself. I would help whomever I can. I also wouldn't hesitate to put a bullet in the head of anyone who was bitten.

Survival of the race is the only logical course of action. If giving up my own life assures that, then so be it. (That doesn't mean I wouldn't go down without fighting however)

[Trin]

My close family would get me killed. I would have to secure the safety of my wife and parents, and then actually get way across town to get my daughter. (No way I'm leaving her with her mother)
I'm dating your daughter so I'm in. And I won't get you killed bro.


I won't lie; I'm about a 9. The only life I can't afford to lose is my own.A 9? I can only assume you are not a 10 because you believe firearms are people and you would save a few of them at the risk of your own life. Because I don't see anything else buying you that point. lol :D:moon: :lol:

I'm a solid 3. I'd help anyone who still has a pulse. Bitten or not. Family or not. Friend or stranger. I'd draw the line at sacrificing myself with slim hope of making a difference. Some of my Red Cross training would keep me from being completely selfless - mainly the idea that putting yourself in danger to save someone has an equal chance of making the situation worse as helping. If someone is swarmed with undead it wouldn't help for there to be two of us swarmed. Helping that person might mean not being able to help someone else later who was far more save-able. So I'd be very keen on risk assessment.

[darth los]

This should be fun.

In this "what would you do in an outbreak" installment, let's focus on just one specific thing: your capacity for throwing people under the bus.

In short, how ruthless can you get? Watching a stranger get mauled while you hide? Only ditching people you hated in life? Or would you use dear old Grandma as a meat shield?


It's survival of the fittest dude, natural selection. It's been going on for millions of years.

As they say, "you don't have to outrun the bear, just the guy next to you."

I've seen how people act when societal norms break down, don't think for a second that they won't do it to you.

:cool:

[krakenslayer]

It's survival of the fittest dude, natural selection. It's been going on for millions of years.

As they say, "you don't have to outrun the bear, just the guy next to you."

I've seen how people act when societal norms break down, don't think for a second that they won't dude it for you.

:cool:

See, I am an evolutionist, but I don't buy that interpretation of how people react to a crisis. I think people force their own viewpoints to conform with this idea, and use it to justify selfishness, greed and cowardice, but I think it's basically an inaccurate application of the theory that ignores some major facts:

The most important evolutionary adaptations mankind has made, to get to where he is now, are those that allow him to function well in social groups; behavioural adaptations such as empathy, camaraderie, morality and loyalty. These things exist because they improved the human/pre-human individual's long term survival chances in another time when man wasn't at the top of the food chain, kind of like the world we're imagining now. Help your neighbour when his ass is on the line and he's more likely to haul yours out of the fire later, and help your Mammoth-hunting odds too. The anti-social loners had a higher chance of dying out in the cold, alone and childless, thereby ensuring that these behavioural adaptations of the more social individuals were passed on to successive generations, ensuring their enhanced survival chances too.

[JDFP]

That's mighty Christian of you JD. :rolleyes:

I'm getting a depressing vibe of ratty cowardice from some of these posts. I'd rather die trying to give someone else a chance, if you're gonna go then better to get it out of the way early and in a blaze of glory rather than cowering alone in some hovel filled only with your own shit, the starved corpses of your elderly parents, and a crushing sense of guilt and regret.

People didn't get through the Blitz, the plague and an ice age by immediately stabbing each other in the back and pissing on the corpse at the first sign of trouble. A bit of ruthlessness is good, but it should happen when unforeseen circumstances call for it, when Plan A fails and there's no other option; it shouldn't be something you gleefully plot in advance. There's survival instinct, and then there's psychopathy.

Kraken, I'm not too worried about the zombie apocalypse realistically happening (as I nervously laugh about it), so this was rambling last night after a twelve pack. Don't worry, if it really happened I'd probably be too drunk to consider pulling a Khardis on any of my neighbors at that time as well. I'd probably just find the whole situation pretty funny until bitten, or worse.

In "real" life I'm one of the most unassuming and good-natured people you'll ever meet. I could have a conversation with a hole in the wall and depending on how late it is in the evening the wall may talke back with me. I try not to take the threat of zombies coming after me too seriously...

For what it's worth, I agree completely with your post. I'm really very drawn by human nature (and my own). We're capable of some of the most atrocious horrors in existence, and, at the same time, we are capable of amazing feats of love and compassion. I think the one thing that truly seperates us from the animals is guilt though -- some of us do well with it, some of us (me) don't do well with guilt. So, even if I survived for a little while in a Zombic Apoc, the guilt would probably eventually get to me of any decisions that I'd have to make.

j.p.

[darth los]

The most important evolutionary adaptations mankind has made, to get to where he is now, are those that allow him to function well in social groups; behavioural adaptations such as empathy, camaraderie, morality and loyalty. These things exist because they improved the human/pre-human individual's long term survival chances in another time when man wasn't at the top of the food chain, kind of like the world we're imagining now. Help your neighbour when his ass is on the line and he's more likely to haul yours out of the fire later, and help your Mammoth-hunting odds too. The anti-social loners had a higher chance of dying out in the cold, alone and childless, thereby ensuring that these behavioural adaptations of the more social individuals were passed on to successive generations, ensuring their enhanced survival chances too.


You see, i like that. People generally do things for personal reasons or because they are going to get something out of it. Nothing is for free.

I said it before and I'll say it again. I won't even attribute the quote because you already know where it came from:

"Civility must be rewared, if not there's no use for it. There's no use for it at all."

Bottom line is people are no better than animals when it comes to their survival instinct and they will act accordingly.

:cool:

[krakenslayer]

Kraken, I'm not too worried about the zombie apocalypse realistically happening (as I nervously laugh about it), so this was rambling last night after a twelve pack. Don't worry, if it really happened I'd probably be too drunk to consider pulling a Khardis on any of my neighbors at that time as well. I'd probably just find the whole situation pretty funny until bitten, or worse.

In "real" life I'm one of the most unassuming and good-natured people you'll ever meet. I could have a conversation with a hole in the wall and depending on how late it is in the evening the wall may talke back with me. I try not to take the threat of zombies coming after me too seriously...

For what it's worth, I agree completely with your post. I'm really very drawn by human nature (and my own). We're capable of some of the most atrocious horrors in existence, and, at the same time, we are capable of amazing feats of love and compassion. I think the one thing that truly seperates us from the animals is guilt though -- some of us do well with it, some of us (me) don't do well with guilt. So, even if I survived for a little while in a Zombic Apoc, the guilt would probably eventually get to me of any decisions that I'd have to make.

j.p.

Yeah, fair enough, I see what you're saying there.

Sorry if my earlier post in reply to you was a little too harshly-worded. I just read over it and it sounded a little assholish, so sorry if I came across as a grumpy sod, matey! :D

[Wyldwraith]

Want to clarify something,
I realize there was a defeatist overtone to my assessment-post, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't give 100% to keep my real friends, family and any decent person I came across (that helping wouldn't seriously risk the friends/family) to stay alive and well.

Just because I paint a bleak *personal* picture due to how physically frail and dependent on modern medicine my family is, doesn't make me any less caring or willing to help someone in need.

In fact, my most lasting legacy during this hypothetical zombie apocalypse would quite probably be being the guy who was there to help someone with a far better long-term chance of survival when they needed it at a critical juncture. I try to look realistically at how things would turn out for me and mine in light of the information I have, yet I also believe the universe often gives improbably positive breaks to those with "good karma" at times. Yes, innocent people often suffer horrible, undeserved tragedies, but historically many individuals that logic would dictate were doomed have survived due to unlikely events/coincidences/Providence.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that I was raised not to quit no matter how bad life gets. Loyalty to those I love might very well contribute to the circumstances of my death in an apocalyptic scenario, but sometimes its more important to be able to go through the ending of one's life with assurance that you did your best to stay true to your convictions/what's important to you than it is to live for one more day/week/year etc.

Another trite but true statement, which you'll pardon me for paraphrasing/editing. "Cowards and those poor of heart and soul may die a million deaths, the valiant and the principled taste fleeting death but once."

More cumbersome than the original, but it outlines my priorities in life-or-death situations perfectly. One of the only benefits of my disability/pain is the self-knowledge/realization I gained when the moment came. I don't have to wonder whether I'd do what my heart urged me to do at the risk of life and limb. I've paid an awful price, but I have the certainty that push comes to shove, I'll risk dying horribly to stand for my principles and in both their defense, and in defense of those who instilled said principles in me.

I'd die, my family would die, but we'd stick together, sacrifice for each other, and remind each other that no matter how insane the world has become, the really truly important things we take with us no matter where we go, or what our ultimate fate.

Bottom line, can anyone ask for more during the fall of humanity?

[MaximusIncredulous]

Don't care how anyone labels it, I ain't doing jack shit for strangers. Let Jesus worry about that. Family, friends get the effort, that's it.

[clanglee]

I'm dating your daughter so I'm in. And I won't get you killed bro.
.

Really now? :rockbrow: :shifty: I guess I can send you to pick her up from Elementary School then man? It's on the way to the sex offenders registry office anyways. . . .;)

[bassman]

Really now? :rockbrow: :shifty: I guess I can send you to pick her up from Elementary School then man? It's on the way to the sex offenders registry office anyways. . . .;)

:lol:

Trin is one of those guys that has to announce himself to the entire neighborhood when he moves in...

[clanglee]

...or maybe a mindflayer :eek:


Word to your Illithid!
http://www.mindflayer.ca/images/Mind-Flayer5.jpg

[Mike70]

...or maybe a mindflayer :eek:

:lol::lol:

mindflayers...my least fav species and one of the ones i most like to destroy.


ok, this geek moment has been brought to you by D&D.

[EvilNed]

I'd probably be around 4-5. I wouldn't help everybody, but when I saw a chance to really help someone out without doing any bad to anyone else, I'd take it. Also, I'd probably be a real sucker for helping kids caught out in the open without anyone else. They'd be completely helpless, and they are, after all, our future.

[darth los]

Don't care how anyone labels it, I ain't doing jack shit for strangers. Let Jesus worry about that. Family, friends get the effort, that's it.

A man after my own heart. :thumbsup:

:cool:

[Wyldwraith]

There's a question inside a question here,
The answer to "Are you selfish?" leads to the split-alternative questions "How far are you willing to go in the name of survival?" and "Who or what is worth enough to you to act against your own instinct for self-preservation?"

The answers to these two questions are at the heart of what we're talking about here, aren't they?

I mean, many posters have declared a "To Hell with them all, let God sort them out" sort of philosophy, while others profess a more limited version that makes exceptions for those nearest and dearest to them. In the minority are those of us that seem to consider some things of higher value than simple survival.

Why is that? No, I'm not looking for a statement of the obvious, describing how powerful the self-preservation instinct is. I'm looking for the intangible something that divides those who put a premium on simple survival, and those who consider acting in a manner consistent with their sense of morality to have worth above and beyond survival.

The topic-opener proposed something along the lines of "Who would you throw under the bus to survive?" Fair enough, but what makes some think it the most natural thing in the world to sacrifice others to improve their own chances, while people of the exact same sort of upbringing, socioeconomic class, and environment they were raised in may recoil in horror from the idea of sacrificing others for their benefit.

What's the X-Factor that separates the two groups?

[SymphonicX]

too much conscience here. I'd probably die protecting someone I didnt know.

[krakenslayer]

What's the X-Factor that separates the two groups?

I think an awareness that at some point we're all going to die anyway, at some point in the not-so-distant future our consciousness, our existence, will end. One comfort some of us find, in the short time we're here, is that the the effects and results of our deeds will far, far outlast us, however long we have left personally. An extra ten years of life, say, amounts to nothing in the history of the human race, but a few self-sacrificing deeds might be remembered for hundreds of years. Certainly being "well-remembered" is no good to us when we no longer exist, but it is a comfort to us in the time we are alive, makes it less existentially terrifying.

[Trin]

Trin is one of those guys that has to announce himself to the entire neighborhood when he moves in...I go door to door giving out Nintendos with Leisure Suit Larry pre-installed.

I think this kind of crisis would bring out the extremes. Those who would be heroes will shine. Those who struggle to keep their dark side controlled would revel in the lawless freedom and take advantage of the situation.

The real victims would be the people who are in need of help and have to discern the would-be-heroes from the villains.

[Andy]

In my group, if you dont give good head or know how to cook a good rube, expect to be zombie chow at some point.

Judge for yourselves were i am on the scale :lol:

[darth los]

I go door to door giving out Nintendos with Leisure Suit Larry pre-installed.

I think this kind of crisis would bring out the extremes. Those who would be heroes will shine. Those who struggle to keep their dark side controlled would revel in the lawless freedom and take advantage of the situation.

The real victims would be the people who are in need of help and have to discern the would-be-heroes from the villains.

Judging based strictly on the 5,000+ years of recorded history, human nature dictates that there will a whole lot more villains than would be heroes.

Something in the area of 400,000 to one by my calculations. :p

:cool:

[Trin]

Judging based strictly on the 5,000+ years of recorded history, human nature dictates that there will a whole lot more villains than would be heroes.

Something in the area of 400,000 to one by my calculations. :p

:cool:
If you change your statement to "idiots and villains" you might have a pretty fair representation of GAR's philosophy when he writes these things.

[AcesandEights]

Judging based strictly on the 5,000+ years of recorded history, human nature dictates that there will a whole lot more villains than would be heroes.

Something in the area of 400,000 to one by my calculations. :p

:cool:

Meh. History shines on the outliers and tends to downplay, overlook or avoid the dull people just getting along and doing their thing like taking care of their family etc. and those people are just a mixed grab bag of good, bad and people who are capable of both given the right mixture of circumstances and outlooks.

Someone believing they have very little future left might not care about even their friends or family, or--conversely--may not care about their own life and place an emphasis on their principles and those they care about, as they deem it likely to be forfeit.

Grim times make the bad come out in people, there's no doubt, but I don't think the relative merit of the times is the sole determining factor in how people behave or what they're willing to do.

That said, it's impossible for me to say what I'd be willing to do, or be able to stomach doing, to survive in such a situation as a possible zombie apocalypse, life-altering, massive disaster etc. I just don't think I know myself well enough.

[darth los]

Meh. History shines on the outliers and tends to downplay, overlook or avoid the dull people just getting along and doing their thing like taking care of their family etc. and those people are just a mixed grab bag of good, bad and people who are capable of both given the right mixture of circumstances and outlooks.

Someone believing they have very little future left might not care about even their friends or family, or--conversely--may not care about their own life and place an emphasis on their principles and those they care about, as they deem it likely to be forfeit.

Grim times make the bad come out in people, there's no doubt, but I don't think the relative merit of the times is the sole determining factor in how people behave or what they're willing to do.

That said, it's impossible for me to say what I'd be willing to do, or be able to stomach doing, to survive in such a situation as a possible zombie apocalypse, life-altering, massive disaster etc. I just don't think I know myself well enough.

People are base creatures. If all the shiny toys and perks they get because they are civil to each other disapaer they will revert back to that.

You realy think the person that's drowning gives two shits about your life? Of course not. They're just trying to drag you down so they can use you to get to the surface and breathe, thus live.

The survival instinct is very powerful and supercedes anything in the realm of morality.

:cool:

[AcesandEights]

People are base creatures. If all the shiny toys and perks they get because they are civil to each other disapaer they will revert back to that.

You realy think the person that's drowning gives two shits about your life? Of course not. They're just trying to drag you down so they can use you to get to the surface and breathe, thus live.

The survival instinct is very powerful and supercedes anything in the realm of morality.

:cool:

I think, in general, what you say is true, especially with the very (too) simplistic example you've given about people drowning, but I think you missed the point of what I wrote.

[darth los]

I think, in general, what you say is true, especially with the very (too) simplistic example you've given about people drowning, but I think you missed the point of what I wrote.

I'm a little slow, so if i missed the point can you break it down further because i would like to give your well thought out post a response.

Also, in life we tend to make things way more complicated than they have to be. Fighting for one's life is the way it was for thousands of years and it was a constant worry. LOL, it's one of the reasons we decided to forgo anarchy and form organized societies.

:cool:

[Trin]

People are base creatures. If all the shiny toys and perks they get because they are civil to each other disapaer they will revert back to that.

You realy think the person that's drowning gives two shits about your life? Of course not. They're just trying to drag you down so they can use you to get to the surface and breathe, thus live.

The survival instinct is very powerful and supercedes anything in the realm of morality.

:cool:Do you need a hug darth? I'd give you a hug... if only to squeeze you so tight you'd stop breathing, thus insuring more air for me!! Mwuhahahahaa...

[darth los]

Do you need a hug darth? I'd give you a hug... if only to squeeze you so tight you'd stop breathing, thus insuring more air for me!! Mwuhahahahaa...

So you live an carbon? I always knew you were a sap. :p

JUST KIDDING !! :lol:

:cool:

[Wyldwraith]

People are base creatures. If all the shiny toys and perks they get because they are civil to each other disapaer they will revert back to that.
You realy think the person that's drowning gives two shits about your life? Of course not. They're just trying to drag you down so they can use you to get to the surface and breathe, thus live.
The survival instinct is very powerful and supercedes anything in the realm of morality.
:cool:

I could not possibly disagree more vehemently with this assessment. Yes, if you consider ONLY the instinctive side of the human animal your assessment holds water. If you consider ONLY those individuals, however many or few they may be that give in without struggle when faced with temptations coupled with what their base instincts are urging them to do, then I would agree with your view.

It's not that simple though. People, ALL people have the capacity to resist temptations and deny instinct-driven urges. Call it the moral compass, our "light side", whatever you choose, but people have free will and they use it in service of EITHER their instincts and self-gratification, or they exercise their free will to restrain an instinctive reaction that might otherwise lead them to commit what Western society would deem an "evil" act.

More simply, it's this capacity to deny instinct and do as we choose and not as we're urged by temptation that is why GAR-zombies are NOT US.

A zombie is the perfect example of the philosophy you champion. Instinct kicks in, it acts in perfect unresisting accord with that instincts, because it is incapable of denying its base hunger to accomplish anything higher.

Just my opinion, but one that I believe very strongly and which sits at the heart of my world-view.

[Wyldwraith]

Correction,
Darth is absolutely right, and I was absolutely wrong. Vehemently wrong even. My bad Darth. End of the day, bottom line, you can rely on no one but yourself. Sometimes you may fail, but you never deliberately fail/ignore/dismiss/degrade or underprioritize your own needs.

Meaning you are the only one you should ever trust, believe in, or stick your neck out for.

The last few days have been a real epiphany for me concerning how even the people that allegedly love you, care about you, and want you to be happy and well will NOT go without, do without, or put their own needs second to yours, no matter how desperately in need you might be.

Just glad I realized Darth was right and I was wrong before I did something foolish down the road at some point and actually behaved in a self-sacrificing manner for people unwilling to do so for me.

Life with others is Quid Pro Quo. Nothing else.

Again, my apologies.

[AcesandEights]

Wow, Dude. That's abrupt.

Hope all turns out for the best.

[darth los]

I could not possibly disagree more vehemently with this assessment. Yes, if you consider ONLY the instinctive side of the human animal your assessment holds water. If you consider ONLY those individuals, however many or few they may be that give in without struggle when faced with temptations coupled with what their base instincts are urging them to do, then I would agree with your view.

It's not that simple though. People, ALL people have the capacity to resist temptations and deny instinct-driven urges. Call it the moral compass, our "light side", whatever you choose, but people have free will and they use it in service of EITHER their instincts and self-gratification, or they exercise their free will to restrain an instinctive reaction that might otherwise lead them to commit what Western society would deem an "evil" act.

More simply, it's this capacity to deny instinct and do as we choose and not as we're urged by temptation that is why GAR-zombies are NOT US.

A zombie is the perfect example of the philosophy you champion. Instinct kicks in, it acts in perfect unresisting accord with that instincts, because it is incapable of denying its base hunger to accomplish anything higher.

Just my opinion, but one that I believe very strongly and which sits at the heart of my world-view.


Correction,
Darth is absolutely right, and I was absolutely wrong. Vehemently wrong even. My bad Darth. End of the day, bottom line, you can rely on no one but yourself. Sometimes you may fail, but you never deliberately fail/ignore/dismiss/degrade or underprioritize your own needs.

Meaning you are the only one you should ever trust, believe in, or stick your neck out for.

The last few days have been a real epiphany for me concerning how even the people that allegedly love you, care about you, and want you to be happy and well will NOT go without, do without, or put their own needs second to yours, no matter how desperately in need you might be.

Just glad I realized Darth was right and I was wrong before I did something foolish down the road at some point and actually behaved in a self-sacrificing manner for people unwilling to do so for me.

Life with others is Quid Pro Quo. Nothing else.

Again, my apologies.


None nescessary buddy. I'm just glad you see that now because it will save you alot of heartache and money. I don't know what happened to you but I'm sorry and if you wanna commiserate I have alot of tragic things that have happened to me through people close to me who have betrayed me as well.


Don't get me wrong, who doesn't want to believe the best about human beings? But how many times must you get burned in life in order to come to conclusion that most people are basically pieces of shit?

Take the constitution for example. It's an exquisite, regal document. It has a bunch of things in there we aspire to be are not actually the case, like every man created equal. :rolleyes:

It's the same thing with people. There's what we want/think they should be and then there's the way things really are. They just want to use you for their needs and when they are done they wipe their hands with you.

How many times have you went out of your way for some one only to one day be in trouble and need something from them and it turns out that they just can't be bothered?

I myself am actually tired of trying to be a good person. It seems like I always try to do things the right way and help people and I always get the short end of the stick. Why do you think they say that no good deed goes unpunished?

The "morality" people show is not the base behavior, the depravity is. The morality is constantly trying to keep the depravity in check.

Do you know how many people there have been who have seriously wronged me? The only reason i didn't kill them wasn't for moral reasons, it's because i couldn't get away with it. Cause man those cops are good. Think about that.

How many atrocities would people committ if they new they could get away with it or there would be no consequences? People are normally sorry because they got caught, not because they did it. That's where the remorse, if any, comes from.

Again, how far will people go for you if there's nothing in it for them?

:cool:

[Thorn]

I am not selfish at all, and I have a bit of a superman complex. This could be a serious determent to me in a zombie outbreak scenario.

However I do have somethings working in my favor. I am also not a risk taker, and I have a daughter to worry about. So while I would try my best to help everyone around me who seemed trustworthy and who needed my help I would not extend myself or my resources to the point where I put my daughter at risk.

I think throughout history you see people band together in bad situations and it can work out very well for them. People pulling together to get out of the world trade center for example. Or guys who ran back in to save others.

Of course some of those people died trying to save others but at least they went out as heroes and I respect that.

I do not respect a fool, so diving into a burring truck with no chance of escape to save a baby is wasted life and effort and you are letting other people down. Making an educated guess and then a measured risk is another story all together.

Also I would like to add something about what has been said about people being selfish and not going without for others, or doing for themselves before others.

There are so many cases I could point to where this is incorrect. Where people sacrifice themselves for others. Marines falling on grenades to save comrades in arms. Mothers going without food so their children can live, people living their entire life ot make others happy even if it means they go without what they want. These people are out there, maybe you are not meeting them, maybe you have been burned but I would just urge you to not take such a bleak and absolute view of it because there are amazing human beings on this planet who have given life, limb, comfort, and sanity for others and that is a well documented fact. It is also part of my daily life so. Honestly I have to disagree there.

[Trin]

I agree with Wyldwraith. And disagree with him. And I can say that without even forming an opinion either way. And I'm pretty sure we need to stop feeding darth's negativity before we see him on the national news.

[darth los]

I agree with Wyldwraith. And disagree with him. And I can say that without even forming an opinion either way. And I'm pretty sure we need to stop feeding darth's negativity before we see him on the national news.


Can i get that hug now buddy? :(

People are basically the sum of their life experiences. I've been in prison, come down with an incurable disease, have my ex wife cheat on me and get pregnant among other things and been fucked over by more people that i can count so excuse me if I'm a tad negative but that's all human beings have shown me, so ya...

:cool:

[Wyldwraith]

::Agrees with Darth::

Let me tell you all a story. I've touched on this before on here, and even gone into great detail once in another thread, but this thread bears EXACTLY on what happened in my life, and what I subsequently went through. Two stories actually.

Late into the last decade I was at a Vampire Live-Action-Roleplaying (LARP) national convention. Held in a different city each year, the three day event could best be thought of as one part plot-continuity Climax for the year's gaming, and one part huge social event for like-minded gamers.

Well, just due to the genre the games always begin at or shortly before or after (basically when it starts getting dark), and run for several hours. So, it's not unusual for the bulk of the game to run 4-7 hours, with a couple hours-long winding down period. Then after the games there are often various "After parties" held in a variety of hotel rooms. So its not unusual for the majority of the attendees to see the sunrise a bit before bed each day of the convention, and not at all uncommon for many to be intoxicated by various means once the parties got underway.

To get more concise. I was returning to my room on the 4th floor, which was VERY lightly booked at around 3:30-4am when I chanced upon a slightly ajar hotel room and heard a quickly muffled yet terrified scream of a woman from inside. Make a long story even shorter, I charged in like a fool and took on 4 would-be gang-rapists in the process of attempting to tie down a somewhat intoxicated/drugged 18-19yr old girl.

The results were predictable, despite my several years of Karate instruction. I kept the momentum going and used surprise to my advantage, but once the four had collected themselves they began working as a group. Shortly thereafter I was cornered, and bludgeoned nearly to death with a brass lamp stand.

Spent quite some time in the ICU of a hospital far from home. Was alone for several days, since my "friends" couldn't be bothered to change their travel plans about getting home once the convention ended, and it took 3 days before my Mom could get away from work without being fired.

In the interim, I was paid a visit by Shelly's (the female victim) father the day after I was reasonably lucid once more. Classic upper-class, from his Rolex Centennial to his well-tailored suit and neatly manicured nails. He introduced himself from the doorway without even bothering to try to look me in the eye, perfunctorily thanked me for (words that I will seethe about until I die) "your well-intentioned, but rather ineffective attempt to assist my daughter."

He then went on to say "Of course we'll take care of the medical expenses you've incurred, since it appears you are and will be unable to do so. My main reason for coming though was to establish what you would consider fair compensation for your services. I was going to have my attorney attend to this, but my wife was irritatingly insistent I take care of this personally. So, to business..."

What followed was my best effort not to hurt myself further by idiotically trying to get up and bludgeon his skull with whatever came to hand until I could finger-paint with his gray matter. I have NEVER, before or since been so abjectly humiliated, felt such murderous rage fueled by what seemed an endless tide of resentment. That man made me feel like I was hired help, and that what had happened required nothing more from him and his than the completion of an equitable financial arrangement.

He never, in any way, said anything akin to a simple "Thank You"

The net result of that debacle is the disability, freedom reduced to the point of nearly being a shut-in, and the near-total absence of any forward motion of ANY sort in my life for the next several years.

-----------------------------

Fast forward 4-5 years. I met my future wife in a Depression Support chatroom (Yes, pathetic.) I was content to simply have someone I could reach out to that was genuinely interested in listening to what I had to say, who engaged me intellectually and emotionally to the point I felt something aside from the blanketing emotional and intellectual ennui that had dominated me for the intervening years.

My judgment and appraisal of her personal character was extremely and repeatedly deficient in every way. I have in the past attempted to excuse this fact due to the horrible betrayals of my first and truest love a year prior.
(Very long story made very short: First love left husband with tales of woe, abuse and terror, highlighting how her family was on his side, leaving her nowhere to turn. Hadn't spoken to her in 4yrs, but I persuaded my family to allow her to stay at my grandmother's then-standing-vacant home rent-free/bills-free until she got back on her feet. What I had NOT expected was the tempestuous love affair she initiated, and that I was an admittedly enthusiastic participant in, since I had carried a torch for her since we'd first me when I was 13 and she was 12. We moved in together, and shared what were the 8 happiest months of my life. Then the odd behavior and suspicious statements began, which culminated in her telling me a childhood friend living in Baltimore was in the hospital after a failed suicide attempt. Since my 1st-Love had a severe upper respiratory infection and it was CHRISTMAS EVE, I was of course extremely concerned at the idea of her traveling alone to a far colder area while so sick, and into what would undoubtedly be a very stressful and emotionally draining situation.

I asked to go with her, she refused. I offered to buy her a plane ticket and drop her off at the airport in Tampa. She refused, countering with a request for a bus ticket and to be dropped off at the downtown bus depot here in Ocala. I was extremely worried, but her mind was made up, so I was doing what she asked when my more perceptive/suspicious mother offered to drive, citing I'd been sick as well and was prone to dizzy spells. My 1st love didnt seem very happy about that, but my Mom insisted.

Well, we dropped her off at the station, said our goodbyes etc. Gave me the (fake) # as to where she'd supposedly be staying, and went inside to allegedly wait for her bus. Drained emotionally and physically, I just wanted to go home, but my Mom suggested we drive off as if departing, then circle back on a side street and park next to the bus depot behind the adjacent business's wooden fence seperating their parking lot from the depot's. I didn't see the point, but agreed.

Ten minutes later my 1st love exited the depot with a middle-aged woman who'd gone in a cpl minutes prior. The woman looked furious, and it was obvious they were arguing and that my 1st love was crying, but the woman bullied her into getting into the car without further delay.

Crushed, I went home. Totally devastated and betrayed by the one person I'd trusted absolutely. If she'd asked for the Pope's head on a platter I would've died trying to get it for her.

Shortly thereafter the police show up at my front door, which my Mom answered. Stating they were there in regards to a reported kidnapping. My Mom called out through the house that the police were here and saying my Ex had been kidnapped. Which of course made me remember the scene in the depot parking lot. I came bounding through the house, running for the first time in five years, pain forgotten.

Unfortunately, my Mom had misunderstood the police. They weren't there to INFORM us she'd been kidnapped. They were convinced *I* had done the kidnapping, because my Ex had called her mom earlier in the day and told her a crock of lies about how I was holding her prisoner. Which it turned out was her endgame strategy to get back with her husband. If she was a victim then he couldn't be mad at her for being gone for 9 months, a far cry from living with another man for 8 of those months.

The police misinterpreted my rush to the door, and took me down HARD. Raised a goose egg on the side of my head when the Bull Lesbian cop deliberately smashed my head into the door when loading me in the back of the squad car before they proceeded to search my home which my parents had of course given them permission to do.

In the process of which my Ex herself called, explaining to the cops she'd lied to her mother to avoid "Family problems" and that I'd done nothing wrong. The male cop was apologetic, but his Bitch-Partner was completely unrepentant. I continue to hope she will find herself kidnapped and sold into white slavery in a country where they practice fun rituals like female circumcision with broken pieces of glass.

So, those are the two most intense experiences of my life. I've droned on long enough, so I'll spare u all the BS of my actual marriage, which completed the Trifecta of Despair.

People are worthless shit, and it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT if they aren't ALL THAT WAY. It only takes ONE to destroy your capacity for trust and to love unguardedly.

I rest my case.